davout: trinque: nah, my point was that the rdbms-should-enforce-all-structure approach isn't very sensible, unless you're ok eventuall ending up with a spelling and grammar checker for your text fields
assbot: Logged on 24-04-2015 16:16:52; williamdunne: I suppose the "cringe" is about how brazen it was
assbot: Logged on 24-04-2015 16:12:23; mats: i started buying AMZN after it became clear they had intentions of becoming a USG contractor
Pierre_Rochard: “painted into a corner” is the phrase that comes to mind
Pierre_Rochard: trinque: I’ve seen this first hand. Unfortunately the reinvention doesn’t happen until problems arise and the sunk costs prevent a switch to SQL
trinque: to the extent that you choose to implement it yourself in an application layer, your efforts will approach what is already present and has 40+ years of research behind it in relational databases
trinque: the enforcement of structure can live in the component you're using to store data, or in your application layer
trinque: davout | well, you, just pushing that to the extreme to show that, even though i hardly ever use it, this unstructured nosql approach sometimes is useful, and isn't *inherently* evil like you seem to imply << there is no such thing as unstructured data, only a question of how rigorously structured it is, and what is used to enforce that.
davout: ben_vulpes: whichever is included in a block is frozen in the amber, but it's not necessarily the version that has canonical DER-encoded sigs
davout: funkenstein_: not sure what exactly is implied, so i'll refrain from commenting further
funkenstein_: if it is as simple as adding a SIGtype, that sounds fine but my understanding was there was still some subtleties on the table and gmaxwell said wait 2 years
davout: ben_vulpes: so my plan is to start bu something easier, probably ripping out the "accounts" braindamage to get familiar with the build and patching process
ben_vulpes: (outletpair, actually, and the unused one.)
ben_vulpes: (i was just thanked by someone who plugged into the same outlet as me. wtf.)
davout: ben_vulpes: testnet excision is easy, making the genesis block configurable is the harder part, you also need some standalone tool to generate genesis blocks
ben_vulpes: (subject of, davout how goes the testnet excision? my digs show less than 50 mentions throughout the whole codebase)
ben_vulpes: (entirely aside, in a fevered moment of sleeplessness on the plane from bsas i looked into ripping out the nonstandard transaction relay blocking stuff)
funkenstein_: as i see it these channels will require private TXs, that is given directly to miners, to avoid malleability issues
ben_vulpes: how could there be? it is of necessity a meatwot thing.
jurov: the hawala definition
jurov: and other discussion. it has its problems
Adlai feeds the head, bbl
Adlai: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=27-02-2015#1035451 < actually, this obviates the need for a microtransaction sidechain
ben_vulpes: the halawa of cartels.
jurov: anyone thought about how the bitcoin hawala ought to work?
Adlai imagines hawala also has higher throughput and lower transaction importance than the hypothetical bitcoin-in-ten-halvings
Adlai: stop thinking either, start thinking tankers full of gold
williamdunne: Where fees are the norm
Adlai: danielpbarron: well, that can always be the case... we can decrease the perceived risk through simpler code, testing, and more time since the last accidental fork, but yknow, "unknown unknowns"
williamdunne: funkenstein_: Pretty much. I disagree with Gavin because it essentially makes the blocks infinitely large, but I disagree with some people here because 7tx/s doesn't even cover SWIFT payments
funkenstein_: i think the point is more people can use bitcoin at any block size.
williamdunne: Adlai: We're in agreement there, I'm not suggesting that we're ever to put ourselves in a position where blocks are huge and no-one is paying. I'm just suggesting that 1mb is no way near enough for bitcoin to be bigger than it is today
ben_vulpes: williamdunne: the people i want using bitcoin take one look at the source and run screaming, as they should
Pierre_Rochard would vote for “time” as the strongest impediment to growth
Adlai: williamdunne: and i would like to see the people who _use_ bitcoin paying for its security, rather than the people who hold it
davout: Adlai: the bitlicense is to bitcoin what US raw milk regulations are to roquefort, not fucking worth the mention
Adlai: oh i know how we can turn reddit against gavincoin... the blocksize limit is good for changetip!
ben_vulpes: <williamdunne> But does seem like the block-size will need to increase at some stage(s) if we're to continue growth << dude again with this growth bugaboo
Pierre_Rochard: williamdunne: I agree, demand destruction is part of revenue maximization, pushes the hoi polloi onto off-chain alternatives
Adlai: davout: both gavincoin and the bitlicense are clouds on the horizon. some people sell coins for raincoats and umbrellas... though they may be wiser to stick a wet finger in the air
williamdunne: Pierre_Rochard: But also makes it less appealing. Security isn't the only objective
williamdunne: But does seem like the block-size will need to increase at some stage(s) if we're to continue growth
assbot: Logged on 24-04-2015 18:50:38; Pierre_Rochard: (having uncertainty around it alone increases the npv discount rate)
assbot: Logged on 24-04-2015 18:51:37; Adlai: let's say that i'm equally worried about gavincoin and the bitlicense
davout: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=24-04-2015#1109651 <<< how's the bitlicense even worth the mention?
Pierre_Rochard: williamdunne: it’s the same as saying your internet provider can continue charging you through the nose and you’ll continue thanking them for the privilege - inelasticity of demand
assbot: Logged on 24-04-2015 18:45:19; Adlai: the nice thing about reducing blocksize is that the N largest miners could just agree to not produce larger blocks, and that would raise tx fees through market forces
davout: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=24-04-2015#1109641 <<< incidentally that's the same argument gavin is making with his "miners cartel"
williamdunne: Pierre_Rochard: In fairness thats about the same as saying my internet speeds today aren't affecting my ability to do things, so it won't in the future.
Pierre_Rochard wishes those advocating for larger block size limit realized the current limit is having _zero_ effect on adoption/price and that will continue to be the case for a while if not forever
Adlai: let's say that i'm equally worried about gavincoin and the bitlicense
Adlai is increasingly skeptical regarding the relevance of gavin's blocksize plans
Pierre_Rochard: (having uncertainty around it alone increases the npv discount rate)
Pierre_Rochard: I think it’s an issue today if we take into account NPV calculations - if gavincoin has zero future fee revenue, that has an immediate effect on the expected return of mining over the long run. Not sure that it would move the needle on today’s asic capex
Adlai: the nice thing about reducing blocksize is that the N largest miners could just agree to not produce larger blocks, and that would raise tx fees through market forces
Adlai: hashrate dropping too low -> need to increase mining subsidy, either by raising btc/fiat, or increasing tx fee competition
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for chetty from 1 to 2 with note: Met IRL, Eulora development.
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for mike_c from 1 to 3 with note: Met IRL, runs btcalpha.com, built new WoT tool
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for asciilifeform from 2 to 3 with note: Met IRL, S.NSA, outstanding work for The Bitcoin Foundation, created portatronic project and runs loper-os.org
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for ben_vulpes from 3 to 4 with note: Met IRL, Bitcoin Foundation Co-Chair
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for mircea_popescu from 5 to 6 with note: Met IRL, Owner/Operator of MPEx, Trilema, #bitcoin-assets: Always professional & helpful!
mod6: !rate asciilifeform 3 Met IRL, S.NSA, outstanding work for The Bitcoin Foundation, created portatronic project and runs loper-os.org
mats: http://i1.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article2100133.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/Hundreds-of-thousands-of-people-crowd-Copacabana-beach-in-Rio-de-Janeiro-waiting-for-the-arrival-of-Pope-Francis.jpg
Pierre_Rochard: leftists speak of financialization of the economy over the past ~40 years, seems as though this new era is timeshareization
Pierre_Rochard: re msft: “Sales of Office 365 Home and Personal subscriptions were up 35 percent sequentially” <= people can’t afford to “own” office anymore, they rent it one month at a time
nubbins`: is it SOP for the sig to be invalid?
mike_c: hehe. it's kakos all the way down.
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for kakobrekla from 3 to 4 with note: expert infrastructural welder. holds up the sky.
asciilifeform: !rate kakobrekla 4 expert infrastructural welder. holds up the sky.
assbot: You rated user kakobrekla on 12-Apr-2014, with a rating of 3, and supplied these additional notes: maker of high-quality spammicide..
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for mats from 1 to 2 with note: reverse engineer. historical researcher.
assbot: You rated user mats_cd03 on 20-Jun-2014, with a rating of 1, and supplied these additional notes: voice.
assbot: You rated user mats on 20-Jun-2014, with a rating of 1, and supplied these additional notes: temporary voice.
mike_c: yes, kako dumps the DB daily and I suck it up.
nubbins`: ^ lelelel there's ONE google result
asciilifeform: or at least the key fp in it
asciilifeform: nubbins`: out of curiosity, can you post the bad sig ?
williamdunne: nubbins`: Wait, did you have to type in the PGP sig?
nubbins`: so into the trash it goes
asciilifeform: nubbins`: this is not the first time i recall seeing pgp 'sprayed on for flavour'
nubbins`: well, they come "pgp"-"signed"/
assbot: Successfully added a rating of 2 for danielpbarron with note: pogoplug tester for therealbitcoin. enthusiastic hunter of lamers. plus a player of actual 'sokoban' in meatspace.
asciilifeform: !rate danielpbarron 2 pogoplug tester for therealbitcoin. enthusiastic hunter of lamers. plus a player of actual 'sokoban' in meatspace.
assbot: Successfully added a rating of 1 for nubbins` with note: pogoplug tester for therealbitcoin
asciilifeform: !rate nubbins` 1 pogoplug tester for therealbitcoin
assbot: Successfully added a rating of -1 for justusranvier with note: vociferous big block advocate http://bitcoinism.liberty.me/2015/01/21/economic-fallacies-and-the-block-size-limit-part-1-scarcity/
assbot: Economic Fallacies and the Block Size Limit, part 1: Scarcity - B I T C O I N I S M ... ( http://bit.ly/1JCjVKa )
Pierre_Rochard: !rate justusranvier -1 vociferous big block advocate http://bitcoinism.liberty.me/2015/01/21/economic-fallacies-and-the-block-size-limit-part-1-scarcity/
mike_c: the conference generally sparks a rash of ratings.
williamdunne: So whats with all the unrating going on today
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for davout from 1 to 2 with note: met in the flesh. fearless French aeronaut.
asciilifeform: !rate davout 2 met in the flesh. fearless French aeronaut.
pete_dushenski: williamdunne: not at all. and nor do i. just that the context has never and will never be evenly distributed. so no averages. so no predictions. no 'over-represented'
assbot: You rated user davout on 22-Apr-2014, with a rating of 1, and supplied these additional notes: human!.
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for hanbot from 1 to 3 with note: had the honour of meeting in the flesh. author of 'shall be delivered.' guiding light from beyond the barbed wire.
asciilifeform: !rate hanbot 3 had the honour of meeting in the flesh. author of 'shall be delivered.' guiding light from beyond the barbed wire.
assbot: You rated user hanbot on 24-Apr-2014, with a rating of 1, and supplied these additional notes: had the honour of meeting this user in person..
williamdunne: pete_dushenski: Doesn't seem irrelevant when comparing subsets of the wider context
assbot: Successfully added a rating of 1 for mthreat with note: met in the flesh. aeronaut.
asciilifeform: !rate mthreat 1 met in the flesh. aeronaut.
assbot: Successfully added a rating of 3 for ben_vulpes with note: therealbitcoin.org. met in the flesh. fearless explorer, and jolly good fella.
asciilifeform: !rate ben_vulpes 3 therealbitcoin.org. met in the flesh. fearless explorer, and jolly good fella.
williamdunne: pete_dushenski: The statistical average
assbot: Successfully added a rating of 3 for mod6 with note: therealbitcoin.org. met in the flesh. jolly good fella.
assbot: You rated user thickasthieves on 22-Apr-2014, with a rating of 3, and supplied these additional notes: live human, ate synthetic food, jolly good fella.
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for mike_c from 3 to 4 with note: expert infrastructural welder, skeptical voice, jolly good fella. met in the flesh.
asciilifeform: !rate mike_c 4 expert infrastructural welder, skeptical voice, jolly good fella. met in the flesh.
assbot: You rated user mike_c on 22-Apr-2014, with a rating of 3, and supplied these additional notes: live human, cellular automata, jolly good fellow.
assbot: Successfully added a rating of 1 for chetty with note: met in the flesh; guiding light from beyond the barbed wire
assbot: You rated user danielpbarron on 07-Oct-2014, with a rating of 1, and supplied these additional notes: I know my tweets are good when he favorites them https://twitter.com/danielpbarron.
Pierre_Rochard: my point was only that traders gonna trade. The real cringeworthiness happened in 1984 when some old beans decided this was an acceptable way of doing business
pete_dushenski: and the incentives inherent in large organisations became manifest until we arrived here.
pete_dushenski: so the state leveraged those of influence, and were leveraged in turn
pete_dushenski: not sure how much of a coincidence it is that those in positions of influence, who needed to be leveraged by the state and 'the consumers who've come to expect', would be bankers and/or jooz
Pierre_Rochard: but really I’d cast blame on the lemmings who use LIBOR for everything and anything
Pierre_Rochard: well - some of the execs who designed this certainly deserve blame, some of which may coincidentally be bankers/jooz… all of them likely long retired/dead
pete_dushenski: 'don't blame the bankers/jooz'
Pierre_Rochard: also, traders getting blamed for poorly designed “market” mechanisms… I liken it to the stanford prison experiment - what exactly were you expecting?
williamdunne: Like "ooohhh and theres 2.5b gone"
williamdunne: I suppose the "cringe" is about how brazen it was
williamdunne: Nice to see some civility in the markets
assbot: Here are the most cringeworthy chat messages that landed Deutsche Bank with a US$2.5B rate-rigging fine | Financial Post ... ( http://bit.ly/1Gr3nHD )
pete_dushenski: http://business.financialpost.com/news/fp-street/here-are-the-most-cringeworthy-chat-message-that-landed-deutsche-bank-with-a-record-us2-5b-fine << speaking of market makers
mats: i started buying AMZN after it became clear they had intentions of becoming a USG contractor
funkenstein_: i should take that back, I have no clue who the relevant market makers are here
mike_c: uh oh, btcalpha has officially jumped the shark now :)
mircea_popescu: thing's spiked all the way.
mircea_popescu: it's made like a gauntlet for the reader, that's for sure.
pete_dushenski: 'every single feather of each single dove' wants to be 'every single feather of every single dove'
pete_dushenski: in any event, i was reasonably pleased with the result.
williamdunne: Not sure what that guy thinks he is doing in the background
mircea_popescu: i think the applicable label is "socialite"
BingoBoingo: I'm just surprised at the outrage over calling a woman who traded sex for advantage an applicable label
mircea_popescu: but in other news, http://33.media.tumblr.com/13a65924dd40031e1bfa04f4ca4d8bef/tumblr_n0l44cfPpU1revz5to3_500.gif
mircea_popescu: i'd be seriously insulted if i actually were to take the us seriously.
mircea_popescu: doesn't this disparity seem scandalous ? whence the gall to "punish" a cia boss.
mircea_popescu: well if they make it so it can also be accessed without a card, i'm probably getting an infinity of them.
assbot: The Fetlife Meatlist - Volume V on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1KcNaEz )
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2015/the-fetlife-meatlist-volume-v/ << it's deployed there for instance if you wanna play with it.
mike_c: mircea_popescu: yes, I'll add JS sorting to the tables that fit on a page.
williamdunne: Then again, thats kinda hypocritical because I treat my own aspirations with that mentality
mircea_popescu: the guy had issues. if you think you can swallow a tractor, then by the same head you will probably also think you can swallow it underwater.
williamdunne: I still don;t understand who the hell would launch that from inside the US? Like srsly. Its not even opsec at this point, its just about not being goddam mentally handicapped
gribble: justusranvier was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 28 weeks, 1 day, 13 hours, 57 minutes, and 9 seconds ago: <justusranvier> On the plus side, this arrangement means I can run Skype in a virtualized sandbox that's far away from my real desktop
mircea_popescu: " and in a memorable email exchange said it was investigating exchange MPEx owner Mircea Popescu over the sale of popular gambling site SatoshiDICE for over $11.5m in bitcoin."
mircea_popescu: "The issuers paid 11,450 LTC and 210 BTC in listing fees, respectively."
pete_dushenski: pretty sure the last one from trilema didn't come through
pete_dushenski: i've received the last few from qntra, but missed a few before that..
pete_dushenski: well trackbacks, but i know what you mean. the things are borked
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski also in the news, you didn't send a pingback.
mircea_popescu: "Your browser does not currently recognize any of the video formats available. Click here to visit our frequently asked questions about HTML5 video."
williamdunne: Yeah it broke this morning because there was some error checking missing and btctrading broke it
assbot: Narrated video of the poem ‘Stop all the clocks (again)’ | Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski ... ( http://bit.ly/1bAzA2b )
pete_dushenski: http://www.contravex.com/2015/04/24/narrated-video-of-the-poem-stop-all-the-clocks-again/ << for mircea_popescu and whoever else likes his poetry but wonders how it'd sound spoken by yours truly
pete_dushenski: lol you dun understand how sad i was when i first scanned the logs for the post i published early early this morning/late last night... and it wasn't there
williamdunne: Sure, but even the bottom of my list can expect to be done within 6 months
mircea_popescu: besides, erryone gets to set their own priorities and so on.
williamdunne: Kinda pathetic if you've been intending to do something for a couple of years and it still hasn't happened (assuming the only constraint is time)
mircea_popescu: speculating because well, never heard anything specific on the topic.
mircea_popescu: what i imagine is the case is - nano was planning to make an upgraded gribble for what, coupla years now. he's probably thinking to have it done in one piece.
mircea_popescu: otherwise it could probably happen in a day.
mircea_popescu: williamdunne there was some discussion re making them communicate, but no concrete steps towards gribble becoming able to sign its stuff so far.
williamdunne: It'd be nice if they could connect, especially as they can still verify the signatures on each.
williamdunne: The reason behind forking from bitcoin-otc
mircea_popescu: who, for what reason, would ever put themselves in this situation ?
williamdunne: BingoBoingo: Yeah, I originally quit using them because I could never connect
mircea_popescu: williamdunne certainly if you keep going at the present rate o.O
jurov: yes, bitcoin node using real database is needed... then electrum server would only need to add its indexes
BingoBoingo: jurov: Yeah. Then there's public servers that just suck. Laggy, don't always send updates, potential chance they could begin lying.
jurov: BingoBoingo: if you don't mind server knowing your addresses, then it's fine. otherwise, i agree
BingoBoingo: williamdunne: I really don't see how people could use electrum without their own node/server (hug-e pain)
williamdunne: BingoBoingo: They connect to a single node, who you would assume is fairly well connected
mircea_popescu: anyway, it's a toy, like any other. people learning and kids are more than welcome to their fun, what.
williamdunne: Thats what most of them do anyway, no? i.e in Electrum
mircea_popescu: but people who actually care about 0tx are currently in practice and are in theory much better served by just keeping vpn links to actual main nodes.
mircea_popescu: it's the usg playbook : give more people the illusion of participation, so you can take more control of the underlying processes.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile, the important function of nodes is storage.
williamdunne: Okay, so from a little reading it does seem that they keep the full unspent TX set. While they can't provide all the blocks to someone who wants everything from the genesis it does seem like a pretty big improvement to me - should see a lot more verifying nodes - no?
mircea_popescu: but considering the rest of the problems they have, to them it's minor, and to us... well we didn't care before, either.
mircea_popescu: once people involved start imagining that holding up signs / drinking coffee is relevant to bitcoin, they have somewhat of a problem
mircea_popescu: there isn't anything particularly wrong with the approach, much like there isn't anything wrong with holding up a sign, or drinking a cup of coffee.
BingoBoingo: It's hard enough to find sync worthy nodes in the wild as is
mircea_popescu: 'pruning' offers a guarantee that the node won't be able to offer you a block which contains all spent outputs.
williamdunne: BingoBoingo: Pruning nodes can still validate transactions with recent inputs can they not? Or do they store all inputs. Need to read how it works
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo well that may be because there isn't one.
williamdunne: Especially as the blockchain is starting to get too big for cheap VPS systems used for most services
williamdunne: Personally I reckon it'll just have more people running semi-nodes, rather than less people running full
mircea_popescu: so dun much matter one way or teh other.
mircea_popescu: but yes, broadly speaking the efforts of power rangers are irrelevant to bitcoin.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=24-04-2015#1109086 << that's the problem, it will make people think they';re running nodes who aren't.
mircea_popescu: ahhh it's nice to have the wot website back!
dub: wondered when I would fall off the list
mircea_popescu: im prolly the culprit here actually.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: ;;later tell mike_c other than anchors : can tables be sorted ? (yes it can, <script src="http://trilema.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/sorttable.js"></script> in the head and then class="sortable" in the table)
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for mike_c from 3 to 4 with note: He's been doing cool shit for years.
assbot: You rated user mike_c on 25-Jun-2014, with a rating of 3, and supplied these additional notes: We're partners in WoL. He also runs btcalpha.com, which is a standard for Bitcoin reporting..
mircea_popescu: mike_c http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/ << dat shit's the tits, it has earned a spot in my "always on" list of tabs. and not even that far down the list, either!
mircea_popescu: which you know... if they could be made differently more people would have access to electrons!
assbot: Logged on 24-04-2015 04:35:24; davout: their latest solution "check the referer herp derp" leaves me without words
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=24-04-2015#1109036 << they actually implemented that ?
assbot: Logged on 23-04-2015 23:04:57; ben_cash: i finally found the pet who wanted to come home
assbot: Logged on 24-04-2015 03:22:57; trinque: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/23/drone-strike-al-qaida-targets-white-house << pretty damn amusing word choice in the URL if you ask me
williamdunne: BingoBoingo: It could cause some people to start running full nodes who weren't otherwise, don't think it will make a huge difference
fluffypony: davout: ok cool, the Paris meetup will probably be at the Mozilla offices, I'll confirm closer o the time
trinque: I'm too tired for that one at the moment.
trinque: davout: one the one hand there's a discussion of the merits of using relational modeling to represent concepts
trinque: davout: to be aware of what the verb is your sentence <<
davout: well, you, just pushing that to the extreme to show that, even though i hardly ever use it, this unstructured nosql approach sometimes is useful, and isn't *inherently* evil like you seem to imply
davout: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-04-2015#1108536 <<< not always, it isn't really useful in most cases for your VARCHAR(255) to be aware of what the verb is your sentence
assbot: Logged on 23-04-2015 23:00:51; mircea_popescu: "@FLAdmin: Step 1 is to disallow incoming traffic from the trilema domain (23.235.235.243). This prevents people from using the hyperlinks on his page."
davout: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-04-2015#1108851 <<< until they relaod the page to clear the referer herp derp
davout: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-04-2015#1108717 <<< as long as it is the embrace, extend, extinguish kind of embrace...
assbot: Logged on 23-04-2015 21:38:54; fluffypony: btw for any b-a'ers in Europe I'm going to be there for the next month, would love to meet up, or you could come to one of the Monero meetups I'll be presenting at (Brussels on May 19th, Paris on May 21st, Berlin on May 24th) or else I'll be presenting at Bitcoinference in Amsterdam on May 30/31
davout: if we assume it exists, how do would the value even be determined?
davout: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-04-2015#1108229 <<< not sure if such a thing even exists, in the same way there's no average value for a chaotic scalar variable
assbot: Logged on 23-04-2015 23:04:57; ben_cash: i finally found the pet who wanted to come home
assbot: Logged on 24-04-2015 00:15:08; mircea_popescu: davout got the job btw ? :D