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justJanne: And the poor poorer.
danielpbarron: the rich should be richer
justJanne: It helps make the rich richer,
danielpbarron: then i become a slave or die i guess
danielpbarron: but the reason is: keep 49.9% of your income and use the savings to buy healthcare later if you need it
justJanne: Where they do their physical work, rent a flat, but food — those things are taxes.
justJanne: Why should they live in the serene republic, where your insurance can run off with all your money, when they can live here, and have guaranteed healthcare?
jurov: well, i'm not holding my breath there
justJanne: The question is:
jurov: will The Most Serene Republic cover your medical expenses in case of accident?
danielpbarron: why would anyone want to be based out of your country and pay 50% when they can be based out of The Most Serene Republic and pay only 0.1% ?
danielpbarron: pay them what?
danielpbarron: and he claims juristiction in the Most Serene Republic, and not your joke of a country
justJanne: Then you will have to pay them.
justJanne: You never see the 50%
justJanne: Your employer has to send that money to the govt.
danielpbarron: what is there to take?
danielpbarron: that's ok, bitcoin doesn't care about them either
justJanne: The Nordic model works without currency.
danielpbarron: justJanne, your model works for as long as there is fiat money to manipulate
BingoBoingo: To be fair Corruption is what makes the world go round
justJanne: As everyone can claim their model would work.
danielpbarron: this channel is the example
danielpbarron: The Most Serene Republic
danielpbarron: shouldn't you compare your thing to my thing? (the thing i'm proposing)
justJanne: Because the US is a reference point as worst case civilized country.
danielpbarron: you keep comparing your thing to the US
justJanne: Yes, somalia has more personal freedom, but again, try living there.
justJanne: And the personal freedom in the Nordic model is larger than in the US.
justJanne: But again, the idea of the Nordic model is huge personal freedom, at the same time a stable society that provides a great basis for everyone.
justJanne: Especially as the amount of corruption is very different on where you are, and when.
danielpbarron: no, your totalitiarian government that forces me to raise my kids the normal way is what's bad
justJanne: Like the railway tracks, those can be nonprofit monopolies, while dozens of rail operators can rent them.
danielpbarron: what's so bad about "the worst service possible" anyway ?
justJanne: Most of the things need to be a competition, others need to be nonprofit monopolies.
justJanne: The private monopoly will have an incentive to provide the worst service possible, at the highest possible price.
jurov: depends, some. but the is not the problem
justJanne: And? Were they replaced by private competition or a private monopoly?
danielpbarron: that can't be true, and only appears to be because you use the united states as your example of the alternative
justJanne: If the government rents a train for that (like Hitler did, the companies profited heavily) or if they own them (like the GDR did), changes nothing.
justJanne: That is not a part of the discussion.
danielpbarron: even if they are sometimes used to haul off political dissidents?
justJanne: I don't care if the government owns the trains, as long as they are 100% on time, cheap, and fast.
danielpbarron: i think the key words in that story are "US investor"
justJanne: Every. Single. Time. A governmentally owned institution got sold to a US investor they either closed down 2 days later, became shit, or just expensive.
justJanne: Now Deutsche Bahn is slow, never on time, expensive, and not much more profitable either.
justJanne: Then they went to stock market and became a private company.
BingoBoingo: Eh, Monsanto's no so bad. The only problem with glyphosate is it doesn't always kill plants dead enough.
jurov: mats, you're not the first nor last fantsaizing of system without "govt involvement"
justJanne: Not really true, either.
justJanne: If you want, you can move to Togo, or Monsanto City, or the Bahamas.
jurov: so it does not make sense to argue either way
danielpbarron: justJanne, the point being, there are more solutions besides "let starve to death" and "steal from everyone to keep them alive"
jurov: no mats. i'm saying you're going to be separated from your money either way
justJanne: Because they played before 59% taxes for others.
justJanne: They are.
danielpbarron: justJanne, I'm all for keeping people alive that would have otherwise starved to death. They just gotta be humbled by the experience; they aren't entitled to the help.
mats: jurov: you addressing me there with the quote?
danielpbarron: it's a population that is still only a couple generations off from having the crap kicked out of it
BingoBoingo: Nah, go to Ferguson. They have community solidarity!!!
justJanne: If you want total anarchy, go to somalia, they live it.
justJanne: It's not a childish fantasy of it's the currently best working system.
danielpbarron: i don't think anyone here is taking the side that the U.S. is a good example of how things should be
justJanne: The median German pays less money for health care than the median US person.
BingoBoingo still imagining tumblr folk brewing their own Laudnum. If opiate abuse is already straining the fiat world so...
jurov: And high rents and other life costs won't "unduly affect market conditions"?
mats: its time to give up the childish fantasies and carefully reexamine your beliefs
danielpbarron: so instead of making [not enough money], they will make 0.
danielpbarron: justJanne, a minimum wage prices the cheap labor out of the market (the company will prefer not to hire them at all)
justJanne: Minimum wage doesn't hurt the market.
mats: you follow? let the market set the conditions.
mats: would rather take it than work at McDonalds for just shy of a thousand bux a month
justJanne: A minimum wage might encourage the company to actually be more efficient.
mats: folks in various programs draw $300-600/mo in govt kindness, and being worthless as they are,
mats: they don't.
justJanne: Then why do they still work?
mats: this is exactly how it is in the US.
justJanne: and spend their time!
justJanne: they make no more money,
justJanne: sadly, the workers make nothing more than basic income from it
justJanne: yes, they can transport a package for 20$ across the continent over night, and make a profit.
justJanne: in the place where Deutsche Post DHL has its main business:
mats: because they are responsible for last mile delivery in many cases.
mats: without junk mailers, we'd be paying several dollars apiece just to send letters. DHL, FedEx, ... simply couldn't exist without the USPS in USA
mats: lets use the US Postal Service as a model. something like 200 junk mailers are responsible for pumping $billions into the thing, and they pay a pretty penny to be able to shit in your box at commercial rates (in US, cost of letter is $0.49 -- junk mailers pay 5x that)
danielpbarron: the situation would be so entirely different as to be impossible to compare
danielpbarron: there wouldn't be streets if it were just me
justJanne: I wonder how you’d do without the people taking away your trash, the people putting out the fires, the people cleaning your streets
justJanne: ah, the good old "I can live in a cave" defense
danielpbarron: no, I can work and live despite the people around me
justJanne: and the same way the other way round
mats: shall we talk about monopolies that benefit the commoners?
justJanne: you can only live, and work, because of the people around you
justJanne: you misuse the word "community"
danielpbarron: justJanne, people who fall on hard times should be compelled into slavery by their more productive neighbors; they should not get to treat the whole community like their undeserved slave
mats: somalia's not so different from the rest of the world. quite a bit ahead of its time, really
mats: where the fuck are you going to raise capital for basic income in somalia?
justJanne: and then you have a highly competitive, almost unrestricted market for the rest
justJanne: the idea is that you have basic life just enough for everyone available,
justJanne: read the nordic model again ;P
danielpbarron: you're the one advocating for politicians
justJanne: although, tbh, when watching politicians speak, you ask yourself who is the larger liar
trinque: best tv there ever was
mats: yer a leaf on the wind
justJanne: there are some laws: (a) every insurance has to provide a basic plan for the same price, (b) everyone has to have at least this plan, or more
danielpbarron: except it's a very specific shot as per what the normal people voted on
mats: its a beautiful notion. its also not going to happen unless we go post-scarcity, upon which we will revisit the whole thing
mats: i get that you grew up in a soft place, and believe all folks deserve a fair shot at doing whatever it is they feel
trinque: so you just breed an irresponsible generation of fools and somehow those same fools don't inhabit the govt and make sure everyone has savings
danielpbarron: right but how does it include that if it's taxes? the government forces you to have a savings plan?
cazalla: justJanne, ya know what shit won't be there when you're older, right?
trinque: danielpbarron: people can't think for themselves and store away for the future
trinque: and that's not counting the yearly evaporation of weath through currency debasement
jurov: danielpbarron: you will get separated from your money either way
trinque: shit it's effectively 50 in the states too
danielpbarron: whatever you're referring to, the monstrosity has 50% tax rate!
justJanne: Ah, the english article for "social democracy" is actually wrong
trinque: as this aggregate "the people"
trinque: justJanne: the issue is your assumption that you have call to involve yourself in my affairs
trinque: issue isn't the smell of piss
justJanne: even the 10yo busses aren’t.
danielpbarron: i don't want to live in your socialist hell-hole where every man rides the same urine-smelling bus no matter how productive he is
trinque: "normal people" among them
trinque: justJanne: many of the phrases you use are propaganda terms with no well defined meaning
justJanne: my state’s governor uses the same bus as me every morning
danielpbarron: cazalla, it's practically a mathematical proof : the further detached money gets from the person it is meant to benefit, the less efficiently it will be spent
jurov: cazalla: the $1000 figure stays even more so if you're to stay home
mats: it just happens that the moat is too high for joe commoner to cross.
cazalla: my point was more that the idea that you get back what you pay in taxes by way of free healthcare and childcare is retarded
mats: the point of being a business is to brutally murder your competition. there's no avoidance going on.
trinque: it's not "oh no they're winning"
cazalla: jurov, nope, i'm anti-childcare, kids should be home with their parents, not strangers and other swine
justJanne: trinque: Google on the search market
justJanne: the issue with monopolies is that the companies behind it try to do everything in their mind to avoid competition.
justJanne: monopolies aren’t really "evil", they just develop out of greed
danielpbarron: what is the current situation?
justJanne: neither side is evil.
mats: but they're evil. you must fight evil.
justJanne: the current situation is ideal.
justJanne: mats: your freedom ends where the freedom of the others begins
mod6: asciilifeform: thx for posting the werker
trinque: try doing radio experiments in your garage and see how long it takes for the FCC to show up
cazalla: you might pay $100 to them in tax but you sure as fuck don't get back $100 worth of childcare when it's free
justJanne: and they are profitable
justJanne: mats: yes, but you have to ask the question different.
trinque: the largest of them
justJanne: and the oligopols lobby corrupt politicians, too
justJanne: the starting cost is extreme.
danielpbarron: justJanne, your society is a prison; that is, the one in which there is no individual and only the considerations of the lowest common denominator
trinque: justJanne: what keeps them from being outcompeted?
justJanne: so, in your minds, the Comcast/ATT/Verizon oligopol is good?
jurov: yeah, it is actually true providing shelter to homeless is cheaper than let them die and dispose of properly
trinque: justJanne: you cannot assert such things absent the financial considerations
mats: why should society save you from yourself? that's not sustainable in the least.
justJanne: it is more profitable, for example, to put criminals into a trade school and let them work again than to put them into a prison
danielpbarron: this notion that you can be born "not responsible" is the false axiom from which you base further positions
justJanne: danielpbarron: because they have a chance to work later on again?
trinque: or she, I guess these days
trinque: danielpbarron: because govt is the new god and he can save us from even death
justJanne: but society is there to save you from the consequences of bad decisions ;P
trinque: justJanne: then you made bad decisions
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Morphine yeast seems like a bigger blow to the fiat order than 3D guns and shovel AK's for sure
trinque: justJanne: you are completely ignoring the financial considerations involved
justJanne: no. they just know that one day they might lose their job,
danielpbarron: the people are stupid
justJanne: they got less than 4% of the votes last election
trinque: determining that 50% taxes is the magic number is not soviet because "the people"
justJanne: the people? that’s why you have (a) elections and (b) public polls on them?
trinque: give me a low cost of living and don't tax the shit out of me and I'll start all kinds of businesses
trinque: uh huh and who determined those are the magic numbers?
trinque: if we presuppose that the only way to start a business will be having someone bankroll you, we're already lost
jurov: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EO5ectGTcOU justJanne: the "sustained" was just your luck that usg needed to prop you up
trinque: but that is not tantamount to saying "therefore social democracy"
justJanne: the thing is that most of these don’t aim for a huge profit,
justJanne: not really. There are many startups here, actually.
justJanne: tbh, it’s the only really sustainable way
justJanne: the first system I discuss in scandinavia or central europe is a place where 60% of the companies have existed for centuries, have long term neither profit nor losses, and no growth
mircea_popescu: there's no difference there, just a meaningless distinction.
mircea_popescu: the system you discuss IS the other system you discuss.
justJanne: It’s obviously more stable than the economical system plagued of bubble bursts that is existing at Wall Street nowadays
justJanne: the consumer cooperatives operating non-profit chains of grocery stores have also existed since the 1800s
mircea_popescu: ah, that. again : let those firemen do whatever the fuck they please and pay me.
justJanne: the volunteering fire brigade system has existed since the 1400s
justJanne: that’s not the thing.
mircea_popescu: sure. won't last. by the very nature of what unprotected sex is, it won't last.
mircea_popescu: just, some people are momentarily insulated from the effects of their stupidity.
mircea_popescu: (and here we go again, The Narrative is fragile)
justJanne: obviously it works well in the countries with the highest standard of living –
mircea_popescu: and yes, people behave stupidly all the time
justJanne: then people will work literally for free,
justJanne: the idea is: if society is well enough,
mircea_popescu: let those firemen do whatever the fuck they please and pay me.
justJanne: because they are volunteers.
trinque: why should they not be paid for dangerous work?
justJanne: like 90% of all firemen here, for example, work for free. volunteers. No pay, nothing. They risk their lives for nothing, while still having a normal job at the same time.
mircea_popescu: no, it doesn't. that's the fallacy of "we can't compare to any alternatives, as thery don't exist - so it works fine!!1"
mircea_popescu: to me, the difference between soviets and nazis is nil : both were socialists.
justJanne: let’s say it like this, not even the literal nazis had such a right-wing idea about society. And they are nazis.
justJanne: then you might want to rethink your life.
mircea_popescu: i punish people for what they are rather than what they want to be all the time.
justJanne: do you want to punish people for stuff they didn’t do, choices they didn’t make?
justJanne: because no one should have a disadvantage from choices they didn’t make.
mircea_popescu: seems like they're all splendid ideas ?
justJanne: this guy betrayed everyone who voted for thim, and the rest of Germany, too
justJanne: the day after his time as chancellor ended, he got a job at Gazprom
justJanne: He was a German chancellor in the social democrats party who reduced welfare spending, removed any kind of minimum wage ideas, added laws for some businesses, and changed several laws so that Gazprom could build a pipeline.
justJanne: yeah, it’s not something the population can do anything against. it’s just inevitable with 2 parties that are both quite corrupt
trinque: there's not one coherent "they" to consider in regards to the country
trinque: probably some faction of bastards in the US is actually aware of this, and others are not
justJanne: and the US is also selling weapons to the saudis directly, which they sold directly to ISIS
justJanne: if the dad still gives you clothes, even though he knows what you’re doing...
mircea_popescu: "your dad brought you clothes, which you traded for drugs, so technically your dad bought you drugs"
trinque: I think the Saudi's deserve some credit for the swindle there
justJanne: the US is financing the saudi’s, who sell ISIS weapons, so technically the US is financing ISIS anyway
mircea_popescu: if they implement even halfway...
trinque: sounds like they're going to put the fork in the dollar
trinque: oh the irony that would be if someday the middle east is united in its hatred for the united states
trinque: http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/05/18/us-mideast-crisis-iraq-idUSKBN0O20M020150518 "U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry said it was a "target of opportunity," that could be retaken in a matter of days, and U.S. officials insisted there would be no change in strategy despite a failure to make major advances against Islamic State."
mircea_popescu: fully investigate the keys in question, cornerstone of which is, get d.
ben_vulpes: <justJanne> your phone will burn through your clothes. And then ignite everything around it, before becoming a blob of molten lava << israelis came up with this one iirc
assbot: Logged on 18-05-2015 18:57:06; Apocalyptic: (the full factoring is interesting because it's the only way to compute the private exponent d)
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-05-2015#1136459 << i agree, this is one of the better derivative works to be had on the basis of the phuctor results.
justJanne: in the past years, technology got worse
trinque: justJanne: the problem there is economic; why give a shit what happens next year? we'll all be dead
mircea_popescu: just, correct from a game theoretic perspective of genetics, not of individual humans.
mircea_popescu: fwiw, i happen to believe it is actually the correct strategy,
justJanne: trinque: it makes me especially angry when this is combined with programmers who call themselves "engineers", but whose products stop working after just a decade
trinque: best stated by mircea_popescu re: reproduce until there isn't anything extra, then divide it all until dead
trinque: justJanne: it's the whole socialist world's strategy
mircea_popescu: trinque:--std=c99 kicks on __STRICT_ANSI__ which affects whether __USE_MISC is defined in features.h << such a great explanation of wtf is wrong with all this shit.
ben_vulpes: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Overlay/Local_overlay << "Note: The old method of setting the 'PORTDIR_OVERLAY' variable in make.conf is deprecated and should not be used."
justJanne: trinque: that is very much true @ the apple-strategy argument
ben_vulpes: also i read ELSEWHERE on the gentoo wiki that PORTDIR_OVERLAY is deprecated
ben_vulpes: <jurov> ben_vulpes: but yes, hacking on the source is best in your homedir. only after it compiles there, feed to portage << this first
mircea_popescu: btcg you seen the log discussion on this topic ?
trinque: re-feeds on itself for a few cycles and there's nothing left
trinque: mircea_popescu: seems like what happens to the imitators when there's nothing good to imitate
btcg: i was hoping a water heater that pays for itself, by using miner heat, but embeddable chip, if their centralized servers have issue, eeek
trinque: mircea_popescu: there's an (american?) phenomenon there where innovating means crapping together however many things that already existed, and calling it something new
jurov: ben_vulpes: but yes, hacking on the source is best in your homedir. only after it compiles there, feed to portage
mircea_popescu: even admitting you could make this, who in his right mind wants to fuck the food storebox.
trinque: there are a few magical files that need to be inside /usr/local/portage or wherever the overlay may be
trinque: making an ebuild is more along the lines of packaging up your thing and shipping it
mircea_popescu: mats curious if egypt actually goes the way of turkey or mopre like syria
trinque: ben_vulpes: if you want to hack best just stick the source in your home directory
danielpbarron: btcg, chip doesn't need full node to mine; all chips probably phone home to central node for the next header to work on
ben_vulpes: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Overlay/Local_overlay << i followed this and a few other guides, but failed to get anything that looked like it would let me hack on the diehard source
ben_vulpes: jurov: i don't think i actually understand how they're supposed to work.
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