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mircea_popescu: seems the sort of meta-prograsmming task for which lisp was invented anyway. keep your code as a s-expr of the code you deliver.
ben_vulpes: anyways, this is sort of a 'club' for code. it'd never stop a smart or determined attacker, but it renders the cost of the heist somewhat higher than i warrant many would pay.
mircea_popescu: then as a licensee you DONT know what you need to transform to wipe the watermark, so you have to transform... "everything". which results in a turd, which as he says, who the fuck will want that.
ben_vulpes: sure, if it's worth your time to resell the thing after writing a transform for it...
mircea_popescu: and then just make a hash and interpret it as bitflips over that list
ben_vulpes: so no not impossible, or low value, or necessary even to destroy the code
gabriel_laddel: sure, start there when selling to idiots, for big contracts scale accordingly
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes he would just build a list of things to change and change them all.
ben_vulpes: and then they have the problem of "what was it before"
ben_vulpes: i may be insane but i think a large fraction of the value in delivered code is that others can read and mod it.
ben_vulpes: it verges on obfuscation, and at that point one may as well deliver a binary for all the "fits in head"ness it'll have.
mircea_popescu: yeah, the result is not worthless. << i mean, the result of this convo, re code watermarking, even if notperfect is still not worthless.
mircea_popescu: yeah, the result is not worthless.
gabriel_laddel: rather than paying for my version?
mircea_popescu: this is a drastically degraded version ofthe code tho, i readily grant
mircea_popescu: by transforming everything that's not required by the machine.
gabriel_laddel: This isn't the only way to go about watermarking code though.
mircea_popescu: i can see the 32 bit hash names.
mircea_popescu: which may be more work than they're willing to put into it, but still, would kill your drm like it kills that stupid "sound security" thing we discussed a coupla weeksa ago
mircea_popescu: course, they could just edit the names to some random hash of their own.
mircea_popescu: then just alter the salt.
mircea_popescu: name a class HerpyClass in one version and Herpy_Class in another
mircea_popescu: and from D it goes to E and soon enough it's free, at which point everyone loses the -ev counter-incentive.
mircea_popescu: and you can't find out, because they all deny.
mircea_popescu: except if D proposes to get it for half price and not tell you, they are now +ev
mircea_popescu: the problem you have, however, is one of externalities. say A, B and C are your customers, and yes for them giving your stuff away is -ev if you know about it.
mircea_popescu: on the oher hand, i guess i also would never starve.
mircea_popescu: this is also a point. amusingly enough, trilema makes more money than the mean of web properties, notwithstanding the fact that it's enforced very laxily.
gabriel_laddel: The problem with the DRM crowd is that nothing they have is valuable enough for someone to give a damn about maintaining the relationship.
mircea_popescu: interesting point this. yes the drm crowd wants contradictory things
gabriel_laddel: the DRM crowd wants is both ways - they want to sell to everyone and to have them not be able to share it
ben_vulpes: iirc that conversation carried the context of hard guarantees.
gabriel_laddel: dly) that IP would take the form of gpg signatures on "i will not send this code around to anyone else", unenforceable just like the rest of the gpg contracts << Correct.
gabriel_laddel: ben_vulpes: <mircea_popescu> ben_vulpes in particular it's unclear to me how wise the "licenses" angle is for a serenissima derivative. while i declined to anull IP when diametric asked earlier, i am very very far from any sort of belief that the current model of that stack of stupidity has any sort of hope for survival. << i figured (perhaps stupi
gabriel_laddel: just (print some-sexpr wotnet-stream) and (read wotnet-stream) all the way
gabriel_laddel: trinque: WIP, no shame in that << You followed the install guide or just (ql:quickload 'masamune)'d it?
mircea_popescu: aquired by further fool, idem...
mircea_popescu: they pay for a year or five eventually go bankrupt
mircea_popescu: i think this is the best thing to do - get a domain, have some lulz, let it drop, idiot "vultures" registe rit because WOW WAS USED!11 is VALUABLE!!1
mircea_popescu: i'd pay to be hidden from them.
mircea_popescu: cazalla think about it. the typeins are by definition idiots.
cazalla: they never buy but if they do, it's in installments which they inevitably don't pay.. like btc.com
cazalla: mircea_popescu, rented it from ver.. i dunno about worthless though, most of the bitsuffix and prefixcoin sites yes but i'd think bitcoin.com has some value for just type ins if just that
trinque: seems like the irc part of the guy still thought he was connected to freenode
mircea_popescu: <mats> how is it possible this has escaped audit all this time << welcome to the wunderbar world of FOSS, aka a chunk of raw meat in the sun, festering with a million grub eyes
mircea_popescu: cazalla such lolcows these ppls.
mats: so, phi is kept secret, but i'm not familiar enough with theory to know the implications
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski "The Secret Life of Salvador Dalí" in english
gribble: The operation succeeded.
pete_dushenski: i'll travel around, write about things, and comment on things other people are actually doing
pete_dushenski: ben_vulpes let's stick with our division of labour then : you write code and generally solve the world's problems...
ben_vulpes: fluffypony's tripping around eu, you're derping around vbc and now eu, asciilifeform's off to the woods for the weekend, mircea_popescu's on permananent unvacation
ben_vulpes: a movie and a beer is a nice way to put my brain into idle for 3 hours but after that i don't really want to waste any more cycles on the pulp
pete_dushenski: well i dunno either but the cool kids are definitely doing it.
pete_dushenski: join the movie review club ;)
ben_vulpes: mats: i think the qualified are all taking the weekend off
gribble: The operation succeeded.
ben_vulpes: ;;later tell williamdunne wither scoopbot this time?
assbot: Logged on 20-05-2015 15:03:07; assbot: Logged on 20-05-2015 00:29:41; mod6: take a look at this: http://dpaste.com/0SQPBKC.txt Is there any reason when allocating the space for p & q to do Eulers totient they would initialize the space with 'p' and 'p', instead of 'p' & 'q'?
decimation: the ransomers are clever, not asking too much
cazalla: there goes scoopbot again.. so long, fucknaut
cazalla: instead he's got the identifying wood, yep it's wood guy analysing the signatures on each contract
cazalla: no need for a gpg contract either so now who knows if okcoin doctored up a new contract or not
trinque: "The contract was signed between Mr. Ver and “OKCoin”, failing to detail the legal entity with which Mr. Ver entered into a contractual agreement with." << hilarious
trinque: "The Loper OS Project aims to remake computing. I am aware that others have tried and failed. Laughing? The job is not nearly as difficult as it sounds." << woah, there was an optimistic alf
gribble: The operation succeeded.
trinque: I think in the best scenario, you've just got enough revenue to float an R&D department, and you stick a few guys on it
trinque: incidentally this was one of the angles we were trying to work out with PSU re: daterbase
trinque: selling the distro sounds like certain death
trinque: ben_vulpes | BigCorp wants training software, is willing to pay for the professional services << this may work if the service is training, not masamune
jurov: yes. pls mind the instructions about file naming so that the filename contains original patch ID
ben_vulpes: i'll redo them all.
jurov: then why are all .tar.gz.sig?
ben_vulpes: <mircea_popescu> no fucking way am i adding 50 lines of code to deal with chrome's speshul. << WELCOME, BROTHER
ben_vulpes: jurov: i signed the patches as i downloaded them with my mail client.
mircea_popescu: then all software will be bitcoin gems.
ben_vulpes: focus on milking the fools and don't worry about the cheaters.
mircea_popescu: "clearly, you breahed the contract" "did not" < unresolvable dispute
ben_vulpes: "you may use this yourself, diddle its internals as you see fit, but you may not distribute it to others"
ben_vulpes: BigCorp wants training software, is willing to pay for the professional services to make it happen and another chunk of cash for the software already written.
ben_vulpes: else", unenforceable just like the rest of the gpg contracts
mircea_popescu: if anyone feels like downloading phuctor's P and trying all these types of divisors on it see if we already contain one
ben_vulpes: <mircea_popescu> ben_vulpes in particular it's unclear to me how wise the "licenses" angle is for a serenissima derivative. while i declined to anull IP when diametric asked earlier, i am very very far from any sort of belief that the current model of that stack of stupidity has any sort of hope for survival. << i figured (perhaps stupidly) that IP would take the form of gpg signatures on "i will not
mircea_popescu: funkenstein_ the what now ?
jurov: looks like you haven't used the patch IDs
ben_vulpes: right before the release
jurov: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/patches.html propped up...but it looks no one signed someone's other patch yet?
funkenstein_: the diode?
funkenstein_: is there a story to go with the triangle on the middle finger?
mircea_popescu: and some keys are made of modules with two central symmetry factors, whereas some other keys only include one
mircea_popescu: then there's central symmetry like in 7.1 or 4.2, but there's also simple repeating like in 4.1
mircea_popescu: let's try and count the types. first, there's two types with key 4.2. type T1.1 like 4.x and 10.x, which include a central symmetry factor 2nd key ; type T1.2 like 6.x and 9.x which does not
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform check it out, all the nontrivial factors found have very interesting binary symmetries.
trinque: http://www.theverge.com/2015/5/21/8634437/google-internet-of-things-software-report << coupla companies releasing "internet of things" operating systems. I've said a few times that this is a good market entrypoint for a small lisp machine
cazalla: kakobrekla, should work now, https://blockchain.info/address/17owg8RWb73qfE5HeQk6gg6RAgEUfxPXks is the address anyway
mircea_popescu: seriously, you "can't spy on military" because magic ? srsly, "time is his for the asking" for being FAMOUS ? gtfo.
cazalla: was sorta like tinder for people like me in their 20's 10 years ago
assbot: Logged on 22-05-2015 15:29:17; asciilifeform: l0l! that thing actually existed as something other than spam ads ?!
trinque: and the above is by no means saying that'd be easy
trinque: then you set up your contract with them such that they're paying for the specific tool, and establish with them that the license for that is distinct from the one for Masamune
trinque: and try to land the client first, don't just assume it'll happen when you're ready
gribble: The operation succeeded.
trinque: ;;later tell gabriel_laddel "I see no reason I can't sell computers pre-loaded with Masamune." be careful, you're underestimating the colossal difficulty of this and there are old skeletons on old battlefields that thought the same. *do you have the connections to make these sales to big businesses, militaries, private schools, and so on?*
cazalla: mircea_popescu, jurov's wine is safe, i prefer a half dozen cup of teas in the morning, not wine
Adlai: (... but this requires customized JSON parser at the receiving side, that isn't always practical.) << pffffff (setf json:*real-handler* (lambda (string) (parse-float string :type 'rational)))
mircea_popescu: jurov i just meant the type of coupling!
jurov: so ben_vulpes will then use camera to get the random bits off osciloscope?
assbot: Logged on 22-05-2015 17:49:51; jurov: yes i'm curious what will be the best sampling method.. timing the pulses with some fast counter?
mircea_popescu: who the fuck knows what exactly multiplying the exponent by a factor in the key does.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-05-2015#1143704 << the problem with multiplication in these ethereal numeric bodies is that it has about as many gotchas as memory allocation in c. and most of them plenty unintuitive.
Adlai: it's not necessary, but the alternative is to not simulate, which requires an account
mircea_popescu: tandem arrangements can to some degree help, but it gets rapidly iffy (tandem arrangements of radiation detectors are fundamentally looking at the same event, at least some of the time - not so with electronic noise like cardano measures, where tandem detectors are actually looking at distinct events)
Adlai: jurov: there's lots of data, but motivation to do anything scalpl-related is currently at all-time lows
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-05-2015#1143652 "the path to truth is correctly hiding all the places we're lying to ourselves!"
assbot: Logged on 22-05-2015 14:29:20; asciilifeform: incidentally, now more than ever is the time to set up an sks server under our control. because sks is our ultimate 'backup'
Adlai has brought scalpl for some drydock, next voyage planned for the cross-chain seas
mircea_popescu has been skipping the web exchanges header for... months, now.
mircea_popescu: Adlai it's actually in my reports, too. the part i hadn't read thereof.
Adlai: screenshots all over the reddits, for the curious
Adlai: either way, their order book has been crossing at an increasingly frequent rate
Adlai: they at least charge their customers for helping them boost that number
mircea_popescu: Adlai isn't buttfinex the one of the web exchanges with the largest random number published under "volume" ?
mircea_popescu: this is like "decentralization doesn't work becasue we all used the same copy of decentralized software and got ownered"
mircea_popescu: then "everyone" (of the idiots) is simply copying their "price" and then the world derps abouit how "capitalism creates economic cycles"
assbot: Logged on 22-05-2015 13:42:24; Adlai: twas sometime between the seventh and eleventh book crossing that we screamed fuckit and drained the account
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-05-2015#1143587 << yeah i dun see how that's in their defense.
trinque: but forget the whole dom braindamage; that probably would've remained if he had
trinque: yup, I thought at first it was "long page", but newp, works fine on long pages long as there aren't comments
mircea_popescu: so what, doesn't make dom available until the missing linked images timeout ?
trinque: mircea_popescu: no, does not work on the original page in question
trinque: and also, it works for me on certain pages, not others
trinque: he's saying run it at whatever the browser thinks load is, and also 500ms later because reasons
trinque: when you JS, you must resist the temptation to think like JS, haha
trinque: jurov: he's got a delay in there of 500ms
jurov: one of these "schizoid paranoiac" things i rather always follow
mircea_popescu: jurov well it is at the end of the page.
trinque: mircea_popescu: if I call scrollToHash in the console myself, it works
trinque: that JS does have the human hair, glue and googly eyes look to it
trinque: Uncaught IndexSizeError: Failed to execute 'setEnd' on 'Range': The offset 118 is larger than or equal to the node's length (0).
trinque: the line which is 623 on trilema.com/2010/literara-este-grea/
trinque: mircea_popescu: Uncaught IndexSizeError: Failed to execute 'setEnd' on 'Range': The offset 419 is larger than or equal to the node's length (0).
trinque: heh, I was just mentioning elsewhere that the only right way to write browser JS is in the mode of a schizoid paranoiac, suspecting all but the most basic features of it of trying to steal your precious bodily fluids
mircea_popescu: hiring interview "mr X we will need you to debug all the browsers." "that's fine, but i will need all the moneys" "we only have a fraction of the moneys" "then i can debug a fraction of the browsers" "well... that isn't useful is it now."
mircea_popescu: if any of you ever getting unexpected behaviour feel for some unknown reason a compulsion to debug the whys and wherefores, i would certainly listen
mircea_popescu: so much weird in the browsers....
trinque: also the selection thing is scrolling to the paragraph involved, but not selecting
trinque: yeah my mother has no problem with me living on her couch either; doesn't mean I do it
mircea_popescu: he did seem of the "i feel like hacking on this so fu" persuasion.
trinque: mircea_popescu: I take that as "we'll figure out the business model later" when I hear it
mircea_popescu: the notion that one'll make money from "licenses" in the future... heh. not such a great plan.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes in particular it's unclear to me how wise the "licenses" angle is for a serenissima derivative. while i declined to anull IP when diametric asked earlier, i am very very far from any sort of belief that the current model of that stack of stupidity has any sort of hope for survival.
trinque: gotta bolt it to some service he'd provide with the thing that's desirable on its own
ben_vulpes: professional services and licenses for the custom ware the software so produced run on?
mircea_popescu: especially seeing how plenty of the conjectures that are still open problems are around a century old.
mircea_popescu: by the way, for the putative folk with a rediscovered number theory fondness among the readers : https://primes.utm.edu/notes/conjectures/ is not bad.
Kalki: Wait - it's not the same as the fee for mpex is it?
jurov: better sooner than later... before the new account fee rises again
jurov: yes, set up the wot
Kalki: Kakobrekla - do you mean get it together with a wot setup? Or what does !gettrust mean?
jurov: anyway it's linked from there
jurov: um.. i wanted the "first steps"
kakobrekla: any honest to be found is there
Kalki: Pretty newb around these parts but find it quite refreshing as I have been swimming in the shallow btc waters looking for honesty
jurov: lampelina can !down you then
jurov: it did not fetch the title
jurov: or maybe it's just slow, is there some attack?
jurov: yes i'm curious what will be the best sampling method.. timing the pulses with some fast counter?
asciilifeform: you'd have to use intervals between spikes as the entropy
jurov: how did you hook up the rng in the end?
ben_vulpes: "use libtool" << so as to speak "just type libtool at the prompt"
trinque: ben_vulpes: lemme fix a thing and then I'll see how that compares to my build of dieharder
trinque: now everybody knows lisp has weirded up the way I do my parenthesis
ben_vulpes: thanks for the python bro
ben_vulpes: http://dpaste.com/1SJBXB5.txt << previous experience lead me to expect `make install` to, well, install all of the relevant things. trinque, asciilifeform: any obvious mistakes or bad thoughts on my part you'd care to rectify?
asciilifeform: l0l! that thing actually existed as something other than spam ads ?!
asciilifeform: and that no one attempted to actually derive the corresponding privates
asciilifeform: i still regard it as not entirely unlikely that the attack is a pure 'dos'
asciilifeform: they sure do.
asciilifeform: (and they make pgpdump unhappy, in various ways, yes.)
asciilifeform: incidentally, now is a good time to mention the fact that sks also contains a great many keys which were too malformed to even attempt phuctoring
asciilifeform: Apocalyptic: not at present. will probably end up spending some quality time with the sourc
Apocalyptic: asciilifeform, by the way do you have any explanation as to why pgpdump skips the KeyID field on invalid subkeys ?
asciilifeform: notice it does not include the faux-anvin
asciilifeform: Apocalyptic: you are correct. only applies to -every key in The List-
Apocalyptic: "RSA e(17 bits) - 01 00 01" on the last two Public Subkey Packet
asciilifeform: Apocalyptic: at present, we have sufficient info to birth these on demand from legit keys. but we do not know the magic trick which yields decryption (it does not necessarily take the shape of a private key! and may not even -exist- for every possible starting legit key)
Apocalyptic: asciilifeform, even the HPA's invalid subkey ? I thought pgpdump showed me e = 65537
asciilifeform: Apocalyptic: all of the ones discussed thus far.
Apocalyptic: "2) The public exponent is changed to 281479271743489" for which key ?
asciilifeform: Apocalyptic: care to comment on the 'is transformation same as picking random N for modulus' thing ?
Apocalyptic: "Similarly, the modulus of Peter Anvin's key is also divisible by 19 and 7704959, in addition to 3, 7 and 11 as" // I have found these two additional primes as well, and only those 2
decimation: which probably have some variation themselves
asciilifeform: almost entire world is relying on the - finite and mostly russian - cold war supplies
asciilifeform: in the case of geiger tube, the fill gas is also 'poisoned' by said process, iirc
asciilifeform: filament 'sputters' onto the walls
asciilifeform: it wears out in the same way as a fluorescent light bulb does
asciilifeform: that is really the main reason i do not use geiger for rng personally
asciilifeform: for another, the process of geiger tube going off is rf-noisy
asciilifeform: for one thing, the material, well... decays. at predictable rate.
decimation: soon the hunter 'comes to expect'
decimation: asciilifeform: your earlier analogy of the deer kneeling before the hunter is apt
asciilifeform: decimation: there are some 'gotchas' to using geigers
decimation: if someone is interested in the radioactive decay, I would look at herr walker's hotbits > http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/
asciilifeform: in other news,
asciilifeform: no one - certainly not 'hackernews' imbeciles who ship their hardware with winblows drivers because 'consumer has come to expect' - give a flying fuck about auditability, etc.
decimation: the only other method I can think that is reasonably acceptable in this way is radiactive decay
decimation: part of the problem is as ascii has identified - you really want every part to be inspectible by the end user
asciilifeform: jurov: and yes, they are typically 'best practices' retarded - e.g., 'whitening' etc
decimation: asciilifeform: not to mention the nmi
asciilifeform: (the sks mass-submit, that is)
asciilifeform: jurov: the submission thing is a hastily-written script.
jurov: dunno where i got the notion from
asciilifeform: jurov: the thing has no lisp or anything else interesting in it
jurov: if they cycle you once in a week
jurov: you haven't used the hyperadvanced lisp runtime that can be snapshottet and restarted?
asciilifeform: aaaactually my understanding is that one of the 19 got requeued, which 'un-broke' it. say hello to our first annoying bug.
asciilifeform: and the pressure on sks server keepers to start removing things will be turned on, yes.
asciilifeform: incidentally, now more than ever is the time to set up an sks server under our control. because sks is our ultimate 'backup'
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: ;;later tell mircea_popescu aaaand somehow '19' turned into '18' !?! (i do have a db backup, so if this is enemy action they can go fuck themselves.)
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: ;;later tell mircea_popescu thing is still largely loading moduli missed (due to db locking idiocy) the first time around.
mod6: ok cool. i'll add a link up there in just a bit.
jurov: you can use the latter link
jurov: lol the phoundation released 5 versions (incl. rc) since feb?
jurov: or to the lxr source browser
jurov: that's what most of the patches would be based on
jurov: links can be generated but imo they are not needed
mike_c: "Excitement!!! Excellence! Launching ahead to better humanity! Ethereum!!! Congratulations!
jurov: well, you can post it right to the list
mod6: for instance, 'auto' is in there a bunch of times, but only one version obv. made it in.
mod6: Ok, I can certainly manage coming up with a list of everything that went into -RELEASE. And probably a handfull of others that didn't.
jurov: yo mod6. so either you'll work with the /srv/mailman/.../turds.sqlite directly or supply me at least partial list
assbot: Logged on 22-05-2015 04:21:37; Hasimir: well, that and having to explain to the python-gnupg dev why people might want to sign something with 2 keys
jurov: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-05-2015#1143288 yep i ran into it, too. and it also got incompatibly forked, without proper renaming, which "improved" the situation markedly
Adlai: the decreasing returns were not worth the increasing derpage
Adlai: twas sometime between the seventh and eleventh book crossing that we screamed fuckit and drained the account
Adlai: in their defense, they request "Strong capabilities in: C#, .NET; Xamarin, Mono" so maybe they run production trading engines on emulators
Naphex: davout: didn't they switch to AlphaPoint Trading Engine?
Naphex: so.. bitfinex hacked. just as they switched to AlphaPoint and Microsoft servers
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