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funkenstein_: other than that quantity, the rest is offset
mircea_popescu: listen shorty, you read the log ?
funkenstein_: the quantity the a miner needs to report is the time since the last difficulty change
decimation: funkenstein_: were you the one studying clock intervals in bitcoin
funkenstein_: some financial software or other ;)
funkenstein_: it's a prototype, the code might need some cleaning up
mircea_popescu: or whatever actual respectable prize the nobel used to be
williamdunne: mircea_popescu: I guess. At the very least the cause of it is good though
mircea_popescu: decimation the problem of fitting real time to blocks is in fact going straight to the root of the world. solve it, get nobel.
mircea_popescu: jurov that's a pretty weird graph considering the gaps aren't even same size o.O
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 21:30:21; ascii_field: likewise, the 'bubbles' ought to be sized proportional to their connectivity degree.
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 21:14:04; jurov: mircea_popescu: is the ftp server in the vicinity of your bitcoin node? it went full speed for minutes, then it suddenly throttled to 6kbps
decimation: what is the rate at which new blocks are found?
mircea_popescu: it would appear we are no less than a year into the future.
decimation: pogo can keep time by comparing its clock to the block discovery interval, averaging over a long period
williamdunne: Oh good, flowers really would have made the whole situation rather strange
mircea_popescu: i would like to assure the concerned public that no flower bouquets were involved in any of this at any point.
decimation: asciilifeform: I'm not sure what you are thinking, but my idea is to use the 10 minute block time as a noisy oscillator
mircea_popescu: well, the most famous and i guess exemplare case is, mp stops car, tells shadow : follow that girl. guy gets an address, mp gets a phone number, talks to puzzled woman. explains that he had her stalked, would she like to have a cup of coffee
mats: hiding in the bushes, tracking movements, masturbating to her shadowy figure in the shower?
mircea_popescu: mats you know all the girls i knew for the first i dunno, decade of my life i got through stalking ?
mats: thats the first positive outcome to stalking i've heard of
decimation: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1192416 < i've heard that the reason he lost so much weight at subway was because he was stalking some chick who worked there
mircea_popescu: they truely believe it is a natural truth that their existence is all that's needed.
mircea_popescu: also why it's so fucking disconcerting to the welfare mass.
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 21:02:02; trinque: I have no idea what they think the 'stress test' is meant to demonstrate
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1192198 << it meant to demonstrate bitcoin doesn't work if it doesn't work on the redditards' terms. it managed to demonstrate instead redditards don't matter, even when they pay for the voice.
menahem: ahh ok, used in the mouth!
assbot: Andrew Hamilton, "Race in the Early Films of D. W. Griffith" | Counter-Currents Publishing ... ( http://bit.ly/1dKROyb )
mircea_popescu: i dunno there's a sadder indictment of the decaying west.
mod6: no idea. i just swapped that stuff out for the fullpath, but gernika reminded me that one can usese readlink -f
phf: i think that's the errors from environment variables not being set
phf: mod6: that's the last part of readme, you want to build with gmake instead of make (pkg_add gmake)
assbot: 'Hackers' give orders to German missile battery - The Local ... ( http://bit.ly/1LRh8Au )
asciilifeform: the realization comes from the fact that you don't really need accurate time, just an oscillator that is reasonably independence of amplitude
asciilifeform: other folks can perhaps work it out if i say that the solution is based on dynamic 'predator-prey' equilibrium
shinohai passes a glass of his Absinthe to asciilifeform
asciilifeform: the ~other~ time
trinque sounds the horn
gribble: The operation succeeded.
trinque: "this one out of the set" vs "this one" vs "that" ... so on
trinque: all the articles for example
trinque: having merely dabbled in german, there seems to be a preciseness or specificity to it
shinohai: Nearly every one I have met speaks far better English than half the Americans I know.
trinque: near as I can tell, there is no logic to them
trinque: german I've yet to get past the myriad articles
williamdunne notably did qualify for a non-state school scholarship at a language school, after passing the aptitude tests. Further highlighting the failure of state education
williamdunne: In fairness, even in RO I could understand half the crap because its still latin
williamdunne: I couldn't even update "Ich bin zwolf jahre alt" to make sense in my current state without the assistance from google translate.
trinque: there, that about does it for my german
williamdunne: I had compulsory German and French lessons for 4 years in state education. Went about as well as expected. My entire vocabulary in both languages is "Bonjour", "Guten Tag", "Ich habe ein gross hose schlange", and "Ich bin zwolf jahre alt", along with a few words of no use on their own
gribble: The operation succeeded.
funkenstein_ is loving the discussion of time in the logs
BingoBoingo: But still, that isn't the complete type. It's the entire shape of the face: very, very Anglo
trinque: there's a sort of pudgy, sunken-eyed, pasty-white I invariably associate with "hide yo kids"
trinque: why do all the chimos have a certain look about them?
assbot: How will Subway pitchman Jared Fogle weather FBI investigation? ... ( http://bit.ly/1NMzYHs )
mod6: read your readme... so yeah, months and months ago I was able to build a dynamic bitcoind on openbsd, but that was the exact issue after statically linked: seg fault.
phf: mod6: yes, though they are conceptually similar to the one from dpaste
mod6: ok, so I should just use your patches just posted then
BingoBoingo: phf: It sync'd and so far it hasn't forked outside of the ways other Bitcoins have
mod6: phf: maybe you posted this to the channel? anyway, this is the one I used: http://dpaste.com/28PF9DV.txt
phf: BingoBoingo: that's a good idea, i decided to punt on it, because i don't fully understand the reasoning behind the whole 1.0.1g freeze
mod6: it was from a patch, but not from the email you just sent in...
phf: mod6: is that with the patch i posted to ml?
BingoBoingo: But the whole max locks thing is a mess
mod6: max_locks & max_objects were bumped from 10000 to 40000 in this patch: http://thebitcoin.foundation/ml/btc-dev/2014-December/000024.html But yeah, perhaps it needs to go higher. I'll dig in when I get wedged.
BingoBoingo: <mod6> here's something I missed: log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1187292 << May have to increase locks limit (why it must be there idk) for reorg robustness
mod6: i'll have to see when i get there i guess.
shinohai: I have a stator build working, just waiting on my pogo to get here first. Using the 0.5.3 RELEASE on my shell
shinohai: I made the sync fine until that orphaned block on the 4th
shinohai: I switched my config to addnode, got unstuck then stopped it
ben_vulpes: <mod6> i seem to remember asciilifeform switching over to -addnode after he got stuck. but let's see what he says about it. i'll probably hit the same issue myself. << i don't think he did
shinohai: It's always in the name of lulz BingoBoingo
BingoBoingo: !up devthedev
BingoBoingo: Well, not really re-create. Just fucking up the version strings in the name of lulz
BingoBoingo finally trying to recreate my OpenBSD 0.7.2-ish qt build. Must have lost the original sources that worked somewhere down the line
mod6: i seem to remember asciilifeform switching over to -addnode after he got stuck. but let's see what he says about it. i'll probably hit the same issue myself.
shinohai: I wish my node would sync to either IP, as it is I'm stuck atm.
trinque: better yet, rather than death, a life of moving heavy objects
trinque: the ritual should be arranged such that imitating someone else without reflecting on the outcome first results in death
trinque: these earth humans need a ritual which tests for mindless imitation in children
ascii_field: still gotta do the plot
ascii_field: this is 1/10 the battle
trinque: presumably to help work on their vast wad o cpp
ascii_field: this is the output of a proggy that can take any cpp tree ?
trinque: so perhaps if I can find where it stores the symbol table, I can get the data out of this vast piece of mozilla
danielpbarron: in 2010 a very similar conversation was being had over on the forum
ascii_field: danielpbarron: if you missed the thread - it was about how we have no clock on pogo
danielpbarron: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=960.msg13833#msg13833 >> I don't understand, are you under the impression that the program sets the system clock? It doesn't. << Satoshi on bitcoin time
BingoBoingo: querying at all is problematic. If it must be queried though best to make the timing of queries less predictable.
BingoBoingo: <ascii_field> danielpbarron: this is correct and unsurprising, and blows up the 'ntp once on powerup' thing << query timeserver every modulo(rand) seconds?
ascii_field: likewise, the 'bubbles' ought to be sized proportional to their connectivity degree.
ascii_field: but gotta minimize the crossings of the paths.
ascii_field: the callgraph thing is a straight 'travelling salesman' problem
ascii_field: danielpbarron: this is correct and unsurprising, and blows up the 'ntp once on powerup' thing
danielpbarron: on the topic of time and the pogo, I should point out that I recently had to update the time on my blue pogo (the one i'm using as a web server / irc client) because it had drifted from the real time by as much as a quarter hour in the few months it had been running continuously
ascii_field: they are just dropped down in columns, in apparently random order
ascii_field: the graph flabkebab_ showed does not even attempt to place symbols ~anywhere near~ even one of their links !!
trinque: but the ebnf I was modeling wasn't convoluted inward on itself this haphazardly
ascii_field: taken, at random, from the net
ascii_field: if the answer is no - what makes you think ~i~ could
ascii_field: flabkebab_: as in, on the picture
ascii_field: trinque: technically, packets are diddled in room 641a. room 101 is where they put rats in your face
jurov: mircea_popescu: is the ftp server in the vicinity of your bitcoin node? it went full speed for minutes, then it suddenly throttled to 6kbps
ascii_field: all related objects must be near one another
trinque: gephi will shake the graph out for ya with various plugins
flabkebab_: Edges too close together and was also unreadbale
trinque: yeah well the call graph itself is tangled
trinque: I mean an interface to the dot
ascii_field: my patience for 'help the mouse find the cheese' ran out when i was four
ascii_field: that still doesn't look like ~all~ the unique symbols in the tree
flabkebab_: so here is the mess I have so far: http://46.101.49.39/graph.svg
flabkebab: So I've been having a go at the callgraph thing
danielpbarron: i have not noticed the "network test" except that my actual full nodes sometimes differ by (sometimes rarely) as much as a few dozen blocks before eventually settling in on the true height. My transaction sending has been uneffected.
pete_dushenski: ascii_field took time for the drones to be lined up, meetings to be had, coffee to be drunk, etc.
trinque: sort mempool by fee and fuck the poor?
ascii_field: it also has the purpose of trying to thin the node herd
ascii_field: the bloat attack is deliberat
ascii_field: it being, price themselves out of tx, and then clamour for 'deeeeemooocracy'
ascii_field: trinque: it is abundantly clear what they are trying to do
trinque: 'cept that when the best platform for capitalism ever devised appears, fucktards still think markets wont work within it
trinque: I have no idea what they think the 'stress test' is meant to demonstrate
trinque: if someone really wants to "spam" let him pay the fees sufficient to do so, and he can keep that up for as many blocks as he likes, bidding against every other person who wants in the block
danielpbarron: i like how the block-filling transaction cost nothing, meanwhile redditards are flipping out that they would have to pay 0.0002 if they actually had bitcoin to spend
danielpbarron: or the guy knows an actual miner
danielpbarron: the outputs must be old enough to not set off spam filters or whatever
trinque: or was that not what the "stress testers" were trying to demonstrate
trinque: the system works?
ascii_field is quite certain he saw the whole thing somewhere !
ascii_field: ^ adding the missing rtc crystal & power source to 'dockstart', machine using same chipset as pogo
trinque: ah there it went
BingoBoingo: Well, he didn't sign the comment
mircea_popescu: jurov how am i going to speak here if i can't paste the assbot text ?
ascii_field: gotta love the philippinos
BingoBoingo: Obviously something went wrong, but blaming the process, or Bitcoin Core's implementation is disingenious. Neither was this caused by wide use of old software, because old software would simply keep producing v2 blocks, so the change would never have triggered." << Ergo these new multi-block forks aren't happening
BingoBoingo: ascii_field: Well, gavin stopped. I guess now they roll on to the next one.
jurov: mircea_popescu: owait, the task includes copy/paste from/to eulora?
ascii_field: 'it wasn't us, because we're the core devs, and ergo it wasn't us, fuck you'
ascii_field: BingoBoingo: surprised it took so long for the shitgang to start rolling out obfuscatory smoke ?
shinohai: I'm close to the state of Alabama, shouldn't be hard.
shinohai: Then I'll have to buy a cow. Or marry one.
mircea_popescu: and then where'll you be
mircea_popescu: careful shinohai next you'll buy into the cult koolaid that milk doesn't come from supermarket
ascii_field: the chart needs to account for literally 100% of the src lines
shinohai > mfw there is no cloud, only someone else's computer ...
mircea_popescu: nobody realises they live in a house of shit until they try to go out the door
ascii_field: there is no tool to work with, afaik
jurov: and btw, there's 0.5BTC bounty for eulora on mac.
ascii_field: though i'll probably end up with the bounty for the callgraph
mircea_popescu: like being unreasonable with the pogos
ascii_field: ah just for jurov then
mircea_popescu: then it's a deal.
mircea_popescu: jurov you making me the irc game client ?
jurov: oh, it has 58M inodes? okay then
jurov: mircea_popescu: you need to do sth with the inodes
assbot: I took a loan at 25% on prosper and put it on ltc - panic attack from the price going down : litecoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1IHx47D )
jurov: just check there's 400G free and 190k inodes
shinohai: I love sdf.org, but damn their mail server is so slow.
assbot: The twu luv torture on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Tjrv2m )
ascii_field: the vectorized difficulty thing made me recall it
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: where was your article with the boy, gurl, two frag grenades, and a length of twine ?
mircea_popescu: please DO untar it either first or there before publishing
ascii_field: not everybody wants the whole ball of shit
mircea_popescu: shinohai well yeah, you put your email in there, get an email with address. didja ?
shinohai: I misunderstand then. I thought an address for deposit is emailed to you.
ascii_field: 'when the coin in the coffer rings, the soul from purgatory springs' (tm) (r)
mircea_popescu: (why would you, there's no indication it's your email)
decimation: 'this system where we take turns accusing each other of being an enemy of the revolution can come around to bite me!'
ascii_field: and will fail to be externally reachable at all a good chunk of the time
mod6: <+ascii_field> mod6: anything that requires the operator to even know that routers exist is inapplicable for pogo << yeah was reading what you guys were saying. basically why I didn't bring it up. too hard for mom & pop.
mircea_popescu: o wait, that was a DIFFERENT liberal professor bitching abotu the hell of their own making
ascii_field: mod6: anything that requires the operator to even know that routers exist is inapplicable for pogo
mircea_popescu: in the best case you end up with a ntp pt
assbot: So I found the libertard motherlode on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1TjpCCB )
mod6: but... if it's behind a NAT< then you can control the default route
ascii_field: decimation: yes, and the kid across the street has the strongest signal
decimation: ru, us, others alll broadcast multiple signals
decimation: came to the conclusion that must do self
trinque: the fucking world we live in
trinque mutters about there being low-frequency radio time signals passing through his body this moment, and cannot find a single distributor for a sane, cheap usb receiver
mod6: yeah. haven't been able to follow for the last 45 minutes though.
ascii_field: hell, folks in here were ringing the alarm on account of empty blocks
mircea_popescu: mod6 you there ?
ascii_field: the only folks willing to sign ntp (for a fee!) is us navy
ascii_field: decimation: the idea is that they will all agree, because you're actually taking to room 101 at your isp
decimation: ask 10 randomly, and if they all give nonsense then you are fucked
ascii_field: pour gasoline on them.
decimation: all you are doing is asking some shlub for the time
ascii_field: i don't want dns in there. anywhere.
decimation: mircea_popescu: not to mention also ruin $1000000k commerce in the process
mircea_popescu: for one thing : it costs us 20k to deploy 1k of these. i doubt hitler wants to ruin his ntp for 20k
ascii_field: decimation: the variant where it asks on powerup is also retarded
mircea_popescu: i;m not a great fan either ; nevertheless i suspect it is a marginally better solution than the current best which is "just taker block".
decimation: and once again, you are talking about the daemon
ascii_field: decimation: and when new bug is discovered? then?
ascii_field: jurov: worse. it'll be among those ~sending~ the replies
ascii_field: that is, forge a request for the time
ascii_field: the basic, irrecoverable problem with ntp is that one can 'amplify'
mircea_popescu: jurov i think there is at least one attack where lamer is made to think victim is ntp server
decimation: I guess I percieve the reliance on an ntp server for time as being a much smaller attack surface than relying on operating bitcoind nodes for sync
ascii_field: did not say 'barrier', necessarily, but it does raise the number of bots required
ascii_field: the 100 usd 'pc engines' board i mentioned a few weeks ago does.
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 15:12:23; asciilifeform: who, precisely, can ddos (in the traditional sense) 5,000 ip ?
ascii_field: pretty sure theirs has rtc
ascii_field: without turning it into a shittier version of the $150 box phoundation et al have
ascii_field: trinque: the entire point is to use THE $20 BOX WE HAVE
trinque: sure but then no sweet usb radio clock
ascii_field: no need for pogo then!
trinque: the cost is not prohibitive
mircea_popescu: i don't feel too good about asking people who trust me to put a box on the net that's open to flooding people.
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 15:10:23; jurov: if they're going to ddos known pogo addresses then this has no solution
ascii_field: but yes, if using block timestamps, pogos can only be mislead, cannot mislead others (unless some fool were to mine via 'getwork'-ing a pogo!)
ascii_field: the one where blocks - sure
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: we were discussion a variant where nodes ask one another
mircea_popescu: you can't rewrite the blocks.
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 14:50:38; asciilifeform: drift by more than 2h and you're not only fucked, but will mislead others
jurov: i propose to wire electrodes up on the pogo chassis and synchronize time using chosen woman's periods
ascii_field: decimation: i discussed the problem with letting blockchain affect the time, earlier
decimation: and then ditch hitler's time once you have synced with block chain and can use its timestamps
ascii_field: then hitler knows exactly when to fuck with ntp!
ascii_field: whole problem with bitcoin is that hitler can induce permanent damage by playing with the clock on rare occasions and in localized ways
ascii_field: why not use it every day then
mircea_popescu: he has a point, he ~can~ sync like that, but only provided he actually did the measurements as to which star himself.
ascii_field: then waht
ascii_field: then it rains
ascii_field: trying to illustrate the notion of 'political time' here
mircea_popescu: so are we putting a pulsar on the pogo usb or what.
ascii_field: who can delay the messages at will
mircea_popescu: nah, they left.
ascii_field: they are a continent apart
ascii_field: and this is where the boojum comes in!
ascii_field: but now he wants to ~tell mircea_popescu the time~
mircea_popescu: there's no "truthful" means to breach a convention by getting the REAL reality of it. just like you can't deduce a girl out of her panties.
ascii_field: (one of the most accurate timebases found in nature)
ascii_field: decimation measures the time, by observing a pulsar
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