a111: Logged on 2019-02-20 15:43 mircea_popescu: whether that can be remedied in a group or not remains, i suppose, to be seen.
asciilifeform: i hold that the answr to the http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-20#1898121 quandary depends on whether the right cut of that knot is made. and imho ^ is that cut.
asciilifeform: rather than bloating erry single binary on the box with identical chunks of sanitycheck
asciilifeform: all the bounds checks, exception handling liquishit, etc. that gnat shits out, oughta be happening in either silicon ( which we aint baking yet ) or failing that, in the 'sane arch emulator'
asciilifeform: really oughta have ~1~ compiler, and for a sane arch; and if yet cannot afford to actually siliconize the sane arch, then the sad iron oughta be booting straight in bios to a compact (asmistic) emulator of same
asciilifeform: i also suspect that on modern irons, 'retargetable compiler' is plugging the wrong end of the funnel.
a111: Logged on 2019-01-22 18:44 asciilifeform: nao tbf could even make same observation re emacs ( it's never the 1970s c core that bombs, always extension script that hangs )
mircea_popescu: ie, http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-22#1889245 is rather the result of "squeezing the most juice broken pliers permit"
a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 16:10 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i very much don't expect you want the prb 12 that is emacs. rewrite yes ? :D
asciilifeform: it's a standard 'spittoon in one strand' : for so long as you retain ~any of the c liquishit, yer stuck with gcc ( which is the only thing that builds it , the 'portability' of the lang is a fiction from day 1 )
mircea_popescu: whether that can be remedied in a group or not remains, i suppose, to be seen.
mircea_popescu: maybe 98. but in any case, the only discernible reason anyone uses it is that everyone is, individually, too lazy to write a proper one.
asciilifeform: i fully expect ^ adds up to ~100% of the c opensores mass, yes
a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 15:12 mircea_popescu: well, either that or they o(N) + n log n for some values of N, n.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 16:05 asciilifeform: ( and when found that ~despite this~, http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2906 , was pant-shittingly hilarious, how koch still managed to be the tortoise in the race )
a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 23:42 asciilifeform: ( for n00bz: ) writing a compiler back-end aint actually hard. asciilifeform & many many other folx, did it ~as homework~ , at school. the hard thing is writing a ~decent~ optimizing backend.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 14:49 mircea_popescu: see, engineers are worse than whores. a whore might pretend like she's not working, but an engineer does inept shit like "/* This should optimize out, but it is wise to make sure this assumption is correct. Should these have different sizes, we cannot cast between them and the overlaying onto ERRATIC will not work. */" so as to ~pretend~ like he doesn't see WHY exactly he wants to take that code out. seriously, ooga-booga-bu
mircea_popescu: it seems rather obvious that the 2020-2025 republican future will consist of a whole lotta http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897560 http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897468 etc as we unwind the "optimizing" part in http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897829 and discover a whole lotta http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897689 and http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897536
asciilifeform sees linux kernel, gcc, ftr, as 'life support' item, rather like trb -- worth freezing and maintaining until proper replacement, but not really items with a serious future
mircea_popescu: now we're left with all those bleaters with livers, that are also spurious. "but mp, why won't you go into the liver ?" "wut ?"
mircea_popescu: these two tend to go hand in hand yes.
asciilifeform: afaik they no longer think anyffin
a111: Logged on 2015-01-10 06:25 asciilifeform: mats: gcc... a) i dont get it... << what's the hard concept here? rms wishes to avoid gcc turning into a sweet and defenceless piece of candy for the 'embrace & extend/extinguish' folks.
mircea_popescu: the computing 90s are soon to be just a memory, as these artefacts of sheer wtf slowly disappear.
mircea_popescu: in utter fucking lulz : https://duckduckgo.com/?q=%22To+help+you+detect+if+your+log+format+is+good%2C+Awstats%22&t=ffsb&ia=web ; meanwhile in the actual config files, http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/rXwyg/?raw=true
asciilifeform: the most rampant inconsistency, btw, is not even in the userland abi, but in driver (module) end
asciilifeform: vfication is a 'not whether, but when'(tm)(r)
asciilifeform: i.e. if digging up a vintage kernel, would also have to take up the gcc from the period, or backport the current one, as i understand
a111: Logged on 2019-02-20 01:00 trinque: relatedly, here's a worthy task for an idle hand : find the oldest kernel you can boot on hardware you're willing to use
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-20#1898063 << very good idea; sadly pertinent , however , is the abi breakage ( chronicled e.g. here : https://archive.is/8j7m0 )
a111: Logged on 2019-02-20 04:54 mircea_popescu: "as a language, it requires you to specify in great detail what you do not know in order to obtain the experience necessary to learn it."
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-20#1898072 << i suspect he was barfing on the 'interfaces' thing.
mircea_popescu: trinque did you ever see the guy irl lately ? say this year or something ?
feedbot: http://bimbo.club/2019/02/philosophical-transactions-for-the-months-of-july-august-and-september-1716-part-vii/ << Bimbo.Club -- Philosophical Transactions. For the months of July, August and September, 1716. - Part VII.
mircea_popescu: well what the fuck. like on earth turns out to be just as philosophically and cognitively unsound. which it is.
mircea_popescu: "as a language, it requires you to specify in great detail what you do not know in order to obtain the experience necessary to learn it."
mircea_popescu: this sounds quite persuasively elegant and so on. but then,
mircea_popescu: "C++ is philosophically and cognitively unsound as it forces a violation of all known epistemological processes on the programmer."
mircea_popescu: nevermind "open source". honor the same lordship, therefore have well explained things, therefore have compatibility.
mircea_popescu: the "compatibility through software length" thing has gone on long enough.
trinque: relatedly, here's a worthy task for an idle hand : find the oldest kernel you can boot on hardware you're willing to use
trinque: later this can inform a process of muntzing shit off the kernel
trinque: bvt: would be great to put the config you produced on your blog with what hardware you use.
feedbot: http://qntra.net/2019/02/socialist-mooches-striking-second-year-in-a-row-seeking-to-put-bigger-portion-of-wv-budget-in-their-pockets/ << Qntra -- Socialist Mooches Striking Second Year In A Row Seeking To Put Bigger Portion Of WV Budget In Their Pockets
mircea_popescu: it's better to document the messing than not to.
asciilifeform: ^ for bonus lulz, it wasn't the 'iso std d&d fireball' but the http://trilema.com/2014/the-all-american-asshole-in-his-own-words-with-my-own-notes/#selection-1021.79-1025.1 thing, from what i gather was a 'mortal combat' clone of some type
asciilifeform prefers the http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-12#1895439 site, at least was sorta entertaining
asciilifeform: 1 slightly moar practical variant of this seal would be if could make the 'glitter' in the epoxy from kcl or other commonplace mild radioactive. then tape instant film over the chassis and develop/swap erry coupla months, and compare the liquishit to previous photo.
asciilifeform: you'd want pb foil over the packages, ideally
asciilifeform: ( plus dose the poor silicon erry time )
asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/misc/xray/dead_samsung_35kv_100s.jpg << to complete yest. thrd : the least rubbishy shot of the dead samsung. steel shell prolly calls for a scintillator screen , and large film, to actually get decent shot. but even here usbistic contacts sorta visible.
BingoBoingo: Ah, ty fixed the double You in that footnote
mircea_popescu: the mister god point is pretty fucking lulzy, not to mention accurate.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-19#1898025 << actually pretty grainy ( the barbaric film is to blame ) but in the full res jpg can still see e.g. the au whiskers connecting ic pins to dies etc
BingoBoingo: Also, local mystery in the barrio La Commercial https://www.elobservador.com.uy/nota/una-lluvia-de-disparos-y-el-terror-de-una-familia-de-tener-a-un-profugo-en-su-casa--201921819212
ave1: Btw asciilifeform, I had to switch my cheap NFS account to a more expensive one as php 5.6 is no longer supported in their new setup. I expect that sometime, at the end of this year, 5.6 will also disappear from "production" sites.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-18 08:56 diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-18#1897858 -> ah, so broken links were only in the older versions? anyway: ave1 please do me a favour and point any fetch/download scripts to a mirror of the stuff on your own website, there is no way around this. For one thing I'd much rather download from a republican site and for the other as experience has already amply shown, any external site WILL move them, change them, drop them and it will at best br
BingoBoingo: Downright pornographic. All it's missing is the shaved snatch!
ave1: asciilifeform, re http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-18#1897899, a genesis of the build scripts or gcc?, with the build scripts we'll get diffs of diffs (which should work now)
trinque: https://gitweb.gentoo.org/proj/musl.git/log/app-editors/emacs?qt=grep&q=emacs << looks like youngest they had was 24.5, have sinced removed patches from the overlay claiming mainline works
BingoBoingo: Also tonight I saw the good bum mentioned http://bingology.net/2018/12/24/preparations-for-the-second-navidad-in-uruguay/#footnote_1_2160
asciilifeform: are these posted ?
BingoBoingo: I did not join the group as it was composed of 4 dorks and 5 morbidly obese fem-presenting mayos.
BingoBoingo: In other news, taking my walk tonight I got the celebrity treatment for ~3 minutes. A group of local youth in the city for back to school asked me for directions and were thrilled to discover in Gringo in the wild who could indeed offer directions.
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897392 << cool, snagged and will dissect. did the bootstrapped system boot for ya?
a111: Logged on 2019-02-14 19:06 diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-14#1896356 -> this finished: the signature still does not verify; trinque let me know if you want to see the result of this run too
trinque: what happens when some uninspected and unconscious part of mod6 wells up from the undermeat and "just wants to" be happy/please wife/stop kid screaming
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-14#1896360 << far better than I could've said it, but yes. your "from cause" is foundational for sanity, let alone republic. I gather some have taken "sanity" as a term of art there, not the literal meaning.
asciilifeform: re ^ -- the steel shell is a bitch, will need tuning for kv. but for demo purposes, the FG analogue board photo ~did~ come out pretty well, will scan it when it dries.
asciilifeform: nobody seems to publish the test data on subj tho, aside from 'golden toilet' ic houses
asciilifeform: will also be interesting at some pt to roast a ~working~ ssd; in theory soft xray eats ssd
asciilifeform: that's half the appeal, all of my recipe for it still worx.
BingoBoingo: Has only gotten faster since I first put it on the desk in 2010 or 2011
BingoBoingo: But Bobcat like the apu1 has is sitting on my desk
a111: Logged on 2019-02-18 23:15 BingoBoingo: 6 or 8 to the 1U chasis?
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-18#1897935 << to allow for power and sufficient thermal , 4 per 1u.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: iirc no ecc on either
asciilifeform: ( btw there was to be a demo unit of same in the 1st crate, but did not fit masswise )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: apu is something rather like a x64 rk.
mircea_popescu: basically there's not much room for middle here. either rk or else monster -- even things such as shared hosting are better off on large x86 server than a bunch of mid ones
asciilifeform: i.e. i won't be holding up the expedition for its fix.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'd still like to see the arm64 wtf resolved
asciilifeform: the apu loses on physical space ( it takes the sq. metrage of 6 rk , just by itself ) and cost ( +30% over rk ) aand naturally x86itude.
mircea_popescu: well, doesn't seem like the end of the world, then, to say "this is the rk, has so and so list of advantages as before discussed (truly independend box, etc) and the one drawback meanwhile discovered that you can't really do tmsr-like threading in ada on it, which may be fixed later"
asciilifeform: ( this is somewhat of a black art, it is probably possible to come up with a benchmark where the rk wins )
mircea_popescu: how many cores in the rk cpu ?
asciilifeform: so asciilifeform leans to installing a qty of x64 boxen of roughly same cost profile as rk ( but with added bonus that they eat sata drives ) : apu1. these also have bonus of published electrical schematic and custom asciilifeform bios from src.
asciilifeform: what we have this wk, is a 'sjlj-gnat dun go on arm64'. i dun expect this is a permanent disease, but i do expect it'll take time to fix, esp. if asciilifeform has to do with own 2hands. until then, rk cluster is stuck with the obsolete compiler ( which runs e.g. 'lamp stack' and even zcx-gnat , but obv. won't run the emerging standard sjljistic one until fix. )
mircea_popescu: possibly at the time of trump's washington dinner "humiliation". by whom, by this crop of the barn-born ?
mircea_popescu: i was looking for that pic a whole ago, you know. "where's the one with the bunch of them huddled together like so manby peasantsa"
BingoBoingo: 6 or 8 to the 1U chasis?
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: What sort apu1d4 offers what sort of density to the Rack Unit not that we are revisiting x64
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform your problem's open tho, what the heck are you gonna do, put up more arms we can't compile for ? put up something else ?
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: plox to make use of mircea_popescu's suggested, in log, leads for the hunt, but do not limit to it
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: it is also my understanding that the new rk is presently idle. if this is still so, i'ma commandeer it for propaganda ops. lemme know.
a111: Logged on 2019-01-15 15:32 asciilifeform: it is also time to speak of the next crate. and the customary four cargo slots. 1 is to contain a replacement for uy1 ( and ideally will run cuntoo . ) 1 will contain a 1u that holds rk's. this gives 2 1u slots remaining, they can be occupied by colo passengers, if these stand up and wish to ride , or pizarro irons, at BingoBoingo's option.
asciilifeform: and on what existing userbase says ( asciilifeform still ! waiting ! for any passengers ! to stand up, re http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-15#1887214 . if none by end of this wk, i will assume there are none ! )
asciilifeform: in part the exact mix will depend on what BingoBoingo yields in terms of userbase prelim. hunt
asciilifeform: re rk -- not errybody is running ada proggy, and errything else appears to work quite well there.
asciilifeform: and would rather not have to do whole thing from scratch
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo mircea_popescu has point : are you gonna produce a list of spammees, or just what is it you have hands full with, and asciilifeform has to dredge the net with own hands and halt all other work ?
mircea_popescu: and i somehow still don't see the only item of any import in there, which kinda makes the whole list derisory.
mircea_popescu: incidentally re http://pizarroisp.net/2019/02/17/pizarro-isp-february-17th-update/#selection-45.0-45.26 -- you can't practically wait with this whole thing until either aarm64 is fixed or the aliens invade. what are you gonna do for capacity ?
mircea_popescu: bvt there's reasons we picked gcc 4.8/9
bvt: nope, zcx. sjlj can the next step
bvt: ran the tests for exceptions race, libgcc is fine in gcc4.9, locks are in place, so it seems that it is indeed another gcc5ism
bvt: hello. quick report: i bootstrapped avegnat using asciilifeform's tar (thanks!), had to change the the paths in linker scripts and la-files, will make a post on that.
asciilifeform currently wonders why the fuck an aborted thread needs to unwind its stack frame by frame, it has no further biz in this world after it stops, so wtf even for, new thread gets entirely new stack
asciilifeform: would also like to see wtf i did to the -j32 thing
asciilifeform: looking in the log, iirc diana_coman had same issue, & cured
asciilifeform: but this is with zcx. then went to build with sjlj, found, grr, that it :
feedbot: http://trilema.com/2019/the-secret-of-santa-vittoria/ << Trilema -- The Secret of Santa Vittoria
asciilifeform: they aint machinistic warnings. mostly 'uninited variable', 'missing sentinel', etc
mircea_popescu: the warning list prolly changes by machine.
asciilifeform wonders if he's the only 1 who is disgusted at released opensores 'flagship' soft that builds with 9000km of warningolade
asciilifeform: realized when i woke up that really oughta have first tried plain-old sjljistic ave1-gnat , and see if this cure is even necessary there
asciilifeform: ( the fact that diana_coman's built in ~1h, suggests that i broke my local config there )
asciilifeform: strangely , the -j32 thing aint working for good chunk of the build, possibly dun apply to the bootstrap gnat..?
asciilifeform: ave1: i changed mine to work from local copy of the tars, back when first tested. is there anyffin else new in the sept. ver.?
a111: Logged on 2019-02-18 06:13 ave1: asciilifeform, the september version is not only static but also some download links fixing, http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-18#1897851
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-18#1897858 -> ah, so broken links were only in the older versions? anyway: ave1 please do me a favour and point any fetch/download scripts to a mirror of the stuff on your own website, there is no way around this. For one thing I'd much rather download from a republican site and for the other as experience has already amply shown, any external site WILL move them, change them, drop them and it will at best br
a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 14:27 feedbot: http://thetarpit.org/posts/y05/084-gutenberg-ii.html << The Tar Pit -- gutenberg.org part zwei, a dissection
ave1: also, I was working on the september version, but I'm currenlty stuck on the aarch64 port, something with the jmps, files being undefined etc.
ave1: asciilifeform, the september version is not only static but also some download links fixing, http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-18#1897851
asciilifeform: 'hey do you have king lear?' 'lemme open the disk binder and look for 'the english', iirc it's next to 'the greeks'
a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 14:27 feedbot: http://thetarpit.org/posts/y05/084-gutenberg-ii.html << The Tar Pit -- gutenberg.org part zwei, a dissection
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897404 << before this gets lost in the chaos of gcc vivisections -- spyked , would be interesting to pry apart the zips & deduplicate , see what the actual text mass adds up to
asciilifeform was in a public place where tv on the wall, and guess what was shown : mccain. apparently not dead enuff ( 'freshly uncrated' taped blather, near as i could tell. )
BingoBoingo: Or lacking the backbone to stand up to his wife's boyfriend.
asciilifeform: ( this is where i point out, that the fabled 'sane iron' isn't simply a purely aesthetic win to ticke asciilifeform's aestheticles, but in fact substantially cuts down on the complexity of ~all other sane items~ that are to stand on top of it )
asciilifeform: re bolix back end, i suspect it aint very useful as starting point, because was far ~too easy~ item , in that the iron per se was sane (i.e. performed bounds and type checks, so much of what gcc is stuck doing in soft, was unnecessary )
asciilifeform: the other thing that makes backend a bitch is that ~100% of the work has to be done again and again, for each iron.
asciilifeform: it's why ~errybody is using gcc's (incl. the folx pretending not to)
asciilifeform: ( for n00bz: ) writing a compiler back-end aint actually hard. asciilifeform & many many other folx, did it ~as homework~ , at school. the hard thing is writing a ~decent~ optimizing backend.
mircea_popescu: problem with all this is -- the option's always between trust and knowledge. since we've discovered we can't trust gcc, it follows not only that we now have to write our own ; but that we must maintain the people who know how to write one.
asciilifeform: could propose that there is a (3) , if one of the closed $maxint winshit adas actually implemented own, rather than stealing gcc's
mircea_popescu: except latter only works for their own iron.
asciilifeform: funnily enuff, i suspect there are a grand total of ~two~ ada back ends in existence : 1) the Official adacorpse one , sewed out of gcc ( the 'fsf gnat' is simply old copy of same )
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> i'm still curious what mircea_popescu thinks of as 'ada machine' << 128 bit MIPS 1, 2, 8, or 72 cores at 800, 1600, or 3200 mhz when purpose backed. Otherwise 128 bit for the UCI address space.
asciilifeform: y'know, the part that actually pisses out e.g. x86 instrs.
BingoBoingo: A large number of the folks who did or in the past would have started a forum are in the Google/Youtube hugbox or similar "watermelon farms"
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: I'm "knocking" on a few doors. The "polite way" hasn't been very productive, so the rapeful way is appearing very necessary. Haven't hear anything from the "Proud Boys", excess of ego appears to be a defect of the dwindling population of forum operators.
asciilifeform: i linked the udp thing for a reason -- wrappers inescapably look like 'chunk of c', cuz headerola.
mircea_popescu: one advantage to c's retardation is that well... as long as you feed it the shit it expects, it'll work in the same manner as before.
mircea_popescu: though if possible, i'd just move the wrappers to ada first.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: thinking about it, kernel is really the starting point for 'get c the hell off the box' -- the e.g. 20% of gnat's standard lib that's in c, is in c strictly cuz of reason illustrate in http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=udp , i.e. that kernel api doesn't eat sane (e.g. bounded array) parameters, demands liquishit c-istic buffers
asciilifeform: is this actually in the worx ? or still chalkboard
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: by far biggest 'layer of c' is : the kernel.
BingoBoingo: Anyways, All these names that had burned out completely before I showed up a few months later. History!
mircea_popescu hasn't even the faintest who dood even was
feedbot: http://qntra.net/2019/02/chicago-actor-hired-nigerian-brothers-to-stage-hate-crime-hoax-indignant-at-getting-caught/ << Qntra -- Chicago Actor Hired Nigerian Brothers To Stage Hate Crime Hoax, Indignant At Getting Caught
asciilifeform: ( the very need for locking, on software level, for instance, comes from the absence of any sane mechanism for corralling data to particular cpu )
asciilifeform: afaik none of'em, however (with possible exception of sgi's) have semantics such that multiple processors dun share a bottleneck at the interrupt controller
asciilifeform: this was 'fixed' by intel (with obscene amt of direct standard authorship by microshit) by making the controller 9000x moar complex
asciilifeform: ( incidentally, when asciilifeform speaks of 'iron babel', interrupts are a screamingly concrete example : there is ~no uniformity b/w archs re how they're implemented (does it save regs ? which ? what happens if two interrupts temporally near ? ) or how many , or for what devices, etc )
asciilifeform: possibly i oughta add the detail, that $item is like any other machine i/o-ism -- on bare irons, it writes to the irq table ( whatever shape that has on $irons ) , on unixen it yes uses signals, because wtf else can you do there, on (hypothetical) msdos gnat, will again write to irq table, on boxen without interrupts -- will give eggog on build, what else; etc
mircea_popescu: he can use it to crush hymenoptera for all i care, just as long as it contains the correct set of software.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 16:10 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform still gotta build the ada environment ~with something~.
mircea_popescu: also, subtle point in http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897708 bears belabouring : the point is to standardize ~the tools~, not necessarily (in order) their usage, or end products. the idea is for user to know what to expect if builting a tmsr box, and why he expects that, not necessarily what he can do with it.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 16:21 asciilifeform: rrright, was curious re the volume of barfola
a111: Logged on 2019-02-12 23:41 asciilifeform: there's a lulzy 'pentagon standard' one, the name presently escapes me, iirc it is in the log tho
asciilifeform: diana_coman: the 1 use case i can picture for zcx, is on ultracompact irons. but even there, really, are we gonna use a http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-12#1895612 somewhere ?!
diana_coman: I guess the main thing against it would be that part where can't kill
diana_coman has no curiosity on the topic: all pain at its time, not earlier
asciilifeform: rrright, was curious re the volume of barfola
asciilifeform: ( the less said on the subj, the better, tho, my appetite already ruined by thinkin' about it )
diana_coman: to my mind option b has the benefit that it concentrates the effort in the right direction at least
asciilifeform: diana_coman gets the trooly hard nuts to crack ( which is why retained by s.mg for coin , neh )
asciilifeform: i expect that i'm even doomed to open a book and see how the fuck arm64 worx.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: the caveat is that i still dunhave a working cuntoo for all asciilifeform-operated irons; e.g. rk is still running barbaric old glibc gentoo
mircea_popescu: diana_coman looks like it's going the way of cuntoo-ada-musl, no glibc.
asciilifeform: rather than continuing in a babelized gnat with 'pick yer threader, pick yer stdlib' etc
asciilifeform: given this, asciilifeform would go with 'b' + 'we fix the breakages , both as-we-find-'em and proactively '
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform still gotta build the ada environment ~with something~.
asciilifeform: 'd' is arguably mis-statement of problem, a threadless proggy incorporates ~neither~ system
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i very much don't expect you want the prb 12 that is emacs. rewrite yes ? :D
asciilifeform: i dun see where drepperism wins in ~any~ version, vs. the ab initio and 10x moar compact musl.
asciilifeform: re 'e', i can't picture what'd move anyone with two neurons to rub together to maintain a glibc, that'd be rather like starting a trb from prb 12 (or what is current one)
mircea_popescu: e. something else (among which possible e.1. someone reads and implements dwarf properly ; e.2. someone picks a glibc to grandfather and dedicates himself to cleaning and fixing.)
mircea_popescu: d. ada-zcx-musl-static is the standard for non-threaded programs, we don't standardize threading.
mircea_popescu: c. ada-?-musl-static is the standard, either zcx or sjlj is acceptable (mostly based on what threading philosophy one embraces), with an obvious preference for zcx if one doesn't thread.
mircea_popescu: b. ada-sjlj-musl-static is the standard, and we simply don't sign or use anything that doesn't live up to this.
mircea_popescu: a. we make no standard, every man for his own, but : a.1. ada is the preferred language ; a.2. musl is the preferred standards provider ; a.3. zcx is the preferred exception mechanism ; a.4. static is the preferred build mode. this should come with a design process for candidates evaluation for standardization.
asciilifeform: this is rather like if 2 d00dz run, and the 1 carrying 100kg of lispmachine ends up winning.
asciilifeform: ( and when found that ~despite this~, http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2906 , was pant-shittingly hilarious, how koch still managed to be the tortoise in the race )
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's 1st step in writing ffa, recall, was to conceive of (and prove) an arithmetic workaround for above. that, right off the bat, cost ~10fold cpu.
asciilifeform: they didn't include a word x word mul that gives you both halves. why not ? 'oh not all irons have a mul instr.'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ... nor is this the only instance of this kinda thing. consider e.g. https://archive.is/MxPlA#selection-14.407-2653.3
a111: Logged on 2019-02-12 23:41 asciilifeform: there's a lulzy 'pentagon standard' one, the name presently escapes me, iirc it is in the log tho
a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 14:14 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform one of the larger, more impressive books in my parents' library was "welt der kunst". i couldn't read german, but mom explained it's "the world of art" so it populated my childish immagination for a full decade, until old enough to read it. by that time it disappointed -- not that anything could have lived to heights a kid might build in mind over years.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: until diana_coman's test battery, i never even attempted to use the tasking system.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-12 13:12 bvt: during the gnat build, the sjlj runtime is built, so it should be possible to switch to it and test.
mircea_popescu: afaik everybody up until a week ago when http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-12#1895231 nobody even compiled ada other than zcx.
asciilifeform: item is ~10x the mass of musl, and fulla 'surprises' that erry time turned out to be architecturally baked in.
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, we never actually said "do not use this".
mircea_popescu: yes, no glibc was in fact a preference, and we got it out, of trb, of eulora, etc. no argument there.
asciilifeform: this was a 2015 find. after which asciilifeform immediately proceeded to get glibc the hell out of trb.
asciilifeform: it was subj of mircea_popescu's letter to rms, and the associated lulz
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: we did. recall the 'nss' incident.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: imho the near-term thing to do is for bvt to get the gcc5sim, glibcism, out of his test setup. then can proceed to fix bugs that we actually have in the house, rather than liquishit that only afflicts glibctards.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes. but to my knowledge to date musl was a preference rather than a standard. we never said "no more glibc linking" as we said eg http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-19#1851879
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the diana_coman-bin we disasmed yesterday , is musltronic.
asciilifeform: ( half the reason why asciilifeform dug out musl, is that it's compact enuff to be fixable, at least in principle )
mircea_popescu: so is basically the idea what we want is to get sjlj to work on musl for ada proggies ? or what ?
mircea_popescu: in any case, this is a major decision / inflexion point, and we truly need all hands on deck for this, i'm not equipped with the right chicken darts to throw at guts / read feathers thereof.
asciilifeform: this is theoretically fixable. the sad part tho is that gcc is a potentially ~bottomless well of these.
asciilifeform: to revisit orig upstack thrd : pc dun offer iron locks. so threading relies on software locks, that 'work' in the sense where gcc is relied on to shit'em out correctly. what bvt appears to have found , is that (under particular inputs) it doesn't.
asciilifeform: this is how the 'cloud' people ended up with their circus. 'pc is broken' 'what if you connect 9000 pc'
mircea_popescu: s.mg is perfectly willing to eventually erect torture chamber where shamed boxes ritualistically destroyed for their sins.
asciilifeform: what we did, is to poke with awl until punctured some of the illusions.
asciilifeform: or the 'seppuku of son'
asciilifeform: this is factually not the case on unix tho. good % of the control is illusory ( see e.g. the zombie thread )
mircea_popescu: we're kinda discovering by doing here. but user-controls-machine is certainly in there.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the real q is , what subset of the claimed extant functionality adds up to a programming environment.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'house explodes when i turn on the hydrogen faucet' 'why do you have a hydrogen faucet ?'
asciilifeform: so consider what the airplane people do. they dun terminate. instead populate with N threads, where N is the # of physical cpu, and they can idle or work as demanded.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: unless i misread bvt's piece, the bugola is only triggered when tasks are permitted to terminate.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the issue is to come up with a linking scheme we can actually use.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-12 23:36 asciilifeform: the avionics people seem to use it, but they (near as i was able to learn) dun kill tasks at all, and regard any detected wedge as a http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-12#1895456 condition
mircea_popescu: clearly immigration to the uk worked out.
mircea_popescu: amir taaki is a dude who was trying to pimp his underage sister ten years ago. that's all, what the fuck already.
mircea_popescu: and the entirely fucktarded morons go about talking of this same schmuck in terms of some heroism or other, truly there's nothing more disgusting extant or imaginable than "people themselves" with their "democratically elected options" and whatnot.
asciilifeform: ( asciilifeform's unifying theory, is that living in c ecosystem turns ~all~ inhabitants, after enuff yrs, into a kind of rms; sorta like black lung of coal miner )
mircea_popescu: (the sister in question being the 15yo http://trilema.com/2012/amir-taaki-has-done-and-continues-to-do-huge-disservice-to-anyone-serious-involved-in-bitcoin/ schmuck was trying to sell for bitcoins as a "totally legit enterpreneurial enterprise" coupla years priors)
asciilifeform: could link to the x60 affair also.
a111: Logged on 2012-09-16 01:12 mircea_popescu: Diablo-D3 because by now not that many people can be bothered to invite him anywhere.
a111: Logged on 2012-09-16 01:12 Diablo-D3: why the fuck did rms even show up
asciilifeform: and all of this sepsis, comes from machine where there aint (and cannot be) any such thing as global symbol space, where pointer does not store any info re wtf it points to, nor does a block of code know that it is a block of code , nor lolcat gif knows that it is an array, etc
mircea_popescu: shoulda sent him some pennies, http://btcbase.org/log/2012-09-16#-267346 item cost the tard in question 500 bux or somethjing like that iirc.