decimation: ben_vulpes: I tried to compile the 1.55.0 boost on macports and it didn't work
mircea_popescu: considering what sats cost these days...
mircea_popescu: and if they refuse to sign a contract, im going to sue them for refusing to sign a contract, which thewy actually have to do being a de facto monopoluy
mircea_popescu: which they have to execute.
mircea_popescu: im going to sue them, because we have a contract.
mircea_popescu: but the very basic "all plaintext email is spam, throw it out" rule would do that.
mircea_popescu: you seriously proposing the internet just goes away ?
trinque: point would be to define your own network layer, then have multiple transports over which it may be routed
mircea_popescu: what's next, power rangers will hurt the bitrcoin foundation by not releasing further crap ?
decimation: how you gonna send anything then?
mircea_popescu: that is like suicide for them
decimation: or, they choose to null route only your stuff
mircea_popescu: or they break it, in which case they kill themselves but we still don't care (for the same reason original internet was robuts - rerouting)
mircea_popescu: i dun see how they do anything. either they maintain compliance with tcp/ip spec as is, in which case they do nothing
mircea_popescu: you drop all traffic except port 1337 and check sigs for that so as to only forward stuff to your own peers that they accept.
decimation: or have the power to do so anyway
decimation: the 'untrusted' routers implictly veto packet routing
mircea_popescu: you discard what they route anyway.
decimation: someone is gonna have to be in the middle, who may or may not route packets at their pleasure
decimation: that was kinda my point about the 'charging per route'
mircea_popescu: it could trivially work on existing infrastructure really. the ability to ddos only exists on some ports and in some circumstances as it is, because that's what the derps use.
mircea_popescu: exactly how it works here : we have a public slut (ie, gribble) who will convey a message to anyone, and who can trivially be silenced. otherwise, suppose unknown asks you to convey message to me. well ? why would you.
mircea_popescu: you know those hops in the traceroute ? well... the assumption is that they'll just take a packet.
mircea_popescu: this will make "most of the web" inaccessible to "most people", but only if we measure "most" linearily.
decimation: very few providers in the world could even measure 100 gbs ddos
assbot: Logged on 19-07-2015 19:35:33; jurov: dear decimation these ddoses have tens or hundreds gigabits... and not with 1500 byt packets
mircea_popescu: but past that... who the fuck cares.
decimation: in fact, there's a point where it hits an 'uncanny valley' and you realize it's all a set with fake shit everywhere
mircea_popescu: moving from 2mb gifs to 600mb .avis was a great reason to ditch the cdrom get a dvd
mircea_popescu: moving from asciiart tits to 500kb gifs was a great reason to ditch the diskette and put in a cdrom
decimation: indeed. my experience is not enhanced by watching the individual whiskars on gandolf's beard
mircea_popescu: except there is such a thing as spurious detail.
decimation: heh now the 'movie industry' is going to 4k (3840 x 2160) 3D - in hopes they can hold off piracy, would be my guess
mircea_popescu: decimation this was the pickiness.
assbot: Logged on 19-07-2015 19:26:46; asciilifeform: SIGNATURE IN EVERY MOTHERFUCKING PACKET
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-07-2015#1206433 << you're not gonna have "hdtv" on your thing. not that i mind. i wish they stopped making movies over 700mb. you REALLY do not need more than that for an hour of whatever
decimation: all of the testing amounts to 'unofficial iq tests', as far as I can tell
mircea_popescu: anwyay, the notion that google hires derps with degrees is news to me. i thought nobody got to finish his degree because hired in 3rd year.
mircea_popescu: whole fucking country is by now the United Republic of Blackmail.
decimation: not to the shakedown artists
mircea_popescu: Last year, black students took home 4.1 percent of the bachelors degrees in computer science"
mircea_popescu: "But fresh data show that top schools are turning out black and Hispanic graduates with tech degrees at rates significantly higher than they are being hired by leading tech firms.
decimation: they carefully craft routing tables with all their peers so that they can have multiple hosts with the same ip
decimation: https://blog.cloudflare.com/a-brief-anycast-primer/ < cloudflare describes how they do it
mircea_popescu: anyway, all this is (as you prolly expect it from shit i do) very much experimental. trying to actually make a site where users can safely use their ips.
decimation: which is why it didn't go down, they did spend $x mil, possibly $bil
mircea_popescu: well that makes sense then. i was impressed originally.
decimation: which one? the akamai host you linked?
mircea_popescu: god only knows what the bill actually was.
mircea_popescu: i think they spent a coupla million real dollars on that gateway
decimation: yeah, and your 'gambit' confirmed that they do strictly this
assbot: Logged on 19-07-2015 19:16:30; decimation: the amusing thing to me is that the 'ddos cannon' is using dns
assbot: Logged on 19-07-2015 19:09:25; decimation: also, I don't know what the 'web 2.0' thing he posted a picture of is? is that some kind of dns control panel?
mircea_popescu: then they sprout cheeky teenagers with "nordic system" delusions. won't fill the void.
mircea_popescu: anyway, zee germans have gained a very petty habit of being miserable to the people they owe gratitude to. no hitler statues, put that kohl fellow in jail...
mircea_popescu: otherwise, see orwell : london in 1930 was entering its second decade of pretending ww1 never happenbed anmd "britannia forever"
mircea_popescu: only because germany was feigning death at the time.
mircea_popescu: specifically re 13 : if isis submits a bid to buy out raytheon, this proposal will not go to the shareholders. it will go to a so called "anti trust regulator" or w/e, which will reject it.
decimation: after all, britian capitulated rather quickly to us demands for it to 'decolonize'
decimation: at any rate, my original point is that it would have been interesting to see german v. the world in an economic war rather than military
mircea_popescu: s/fuck you/you made the statement, you prove it/ for any unschooled gals in the audience.
mircea_popescu: not that the guy is pointedly "against populism", admitting for the sake of argument that tyhe concept even holds meaning outside of its proper reference (it is after all a notion of democracy). but then again the bar for "not being x" is not "being patently against x"
decimation: 13. We demand the nationalization of all businesses which have been formed into corporations (trusts).
decimation: "7. We demand that the State shall make it its primary duty to provide a livelihood for its citizens. If it should prove impossible to feed the entire population, foreign nationals (non-citizens) must be deported from the Reich."
mircea_popescu: (great film btw, murphy is the heir to the throne of zamunda, pursues some ugly nigglet in queens. who doesn't like him because he's rich, and to their assheads at the time in the 80s this is a flaw)_
decimation: all that might be true, but the nazi platform appeared to mostly be "give to the people all the things" (minus jews, foreigners, etc)
mircea_popescu: nobody yet stopped to consider "the real color of butter" for packaging purposes afaik,
mircea_popescu: they put butter in blue or red or yellow packaging according to what the focus group says. you think butter is "red" ? butter is butter.
mircea_popescu: mno. the notion that hitler was populist is akin to the notion that obama is democratic.
decimation: yeah, but the main point is that hitler was a populist dictator who actually delievered on his promises to a great degree
mircea_popescu: as hitler correctly figured out (and plainly said so) , the only future of germany as a nation lay in the destruiction of britain as an empire.
mircea_popescu: so a slightly larger germany. still no different from the previous situation.
decimation: mircea_popescu: alright, perhaps the sudetenland (sorry jurov)
mod6: gonna have to test prune by hand, and then test and ensure that these empty dirs will persist indifiniately.
mircea_popescu: the only way poland was worth holding for germany is if they were going into the ukraine. and ukraine in turn, going to moscow. etc.
mod6: yeah. well, i think i'll just prune by hand if I do at all. like i was saying earlier, im a bit paranoid now that some script might later accidentially remove the dirs if they're rendered empty.
mircea_popescu: decimation dubiuous one could have "consolidated". that's what the soviet union tried. it collapsed. that's what the eu tried. it's collapsing.
mod6: there's a bunch of lines that reference it actually, and no, i was hoping to get rid of these barnacles without having to change other files.
decimation: mod6: did you try removing that line from the makefile.unix that reference the empty dir?
decimation: it's pretty likely we would have germany+us+ussr today, or at least they would have been a 'triumvirate' during the cold war
assbot: Logged on 07-09-2014 20:39:31; decimation: no, but my point is that destroying the structure of power typically empowers some megalomaniac to step in and fix things
decimation: lol related to the earlier discussions about anti-confederates & anti-nazis: http://www.thelocal.es/20150706/madrid-mayor-to-rid-city-of-franco " Manuela Carmena, the new left-wing mayor of Madrid, is set to get rid of all street signs bearing references to the late dictator Francisco Franco, replacing them with the names of illustrious women and local heroes."
mod6: <+asciilifeform> we will need more, more of these. << indeed
mod6: <+phf> ben_vulpes: because makefile.unix expects them, (search for obj/nogui/%.o: %.cpp, etc.) << ben_vulpes yeah this stuff
decimation: or rather this: " Spain’s Ministry of Defence is said to be interested in introducing measures that will prevent drones flying in high-security zones following initiatives in London and Paris."
decimation: ^ typical solution to 'tragedy of the commons' problem
decimation: http://www.thelocal.es/20150716/night-drone-mystery-at-spains-royal-palace " The privacy of Spain’s royal family is being invaded by unmanned aircraft which are using the cover of darkness to venture into airspace above King Felipe’s residence."
ben_vulpes: i am clearly not elite enough to set my own priorities, otherwise i'd be down on the beach with a margarita and my laptop
phf: it's totally a makefile.unix artifact, since building with cmake/clang works without them
phf: ben_vulpes: because makefile.unix expects them, (search for obj/nogui/%.o: %.cpp, etc.)
ben_vulpes: i've been able to get on the computer for maybe 10 minutes max at a stretch over the past few days, or i'd take a crack at it myself and figure it out
decimation: 'tragedy of the commons'
decimation: it's not unlike the ddos/spam problem mentioned earlier - each entity sees the street and sewer vaults as a zone to stuff shit for 'free'
decimation: heh yeah pretty much. 'oh we installed shit on top of shit, what kind of bandaids can we use to keep the mess running rather than investing in fixing the problem?'
decimation: yeah apparently they also use the expansion of the gas to cool the lines next to hot steam, etc
decimation: http://www.popsci.com/those-nitrogen-canisters-nyc-streets-are-keeping-your-internet-cables-cool "“We’ve done a lot of work to get these off the street,” Johnson said. “It’s a big expense. This is not our business.” Just refilling the tank costs about $100, Diachok said, which they have to do every day to every three days. Right now in the city, Verizon has 54 tanks at 28 sites, and that number goes up in the winter when t
decimation: the street all over Manhattan."
asciilifeform: decimation: cheap, in the short term
decimation: maybe they need high pressure or something
decimation: it's odd that they would use nitrogen instead of dry air machine
asciilifeform: decimation: nah. these were telco holes
asciilifeform: we will need more, more of these.
asciilifeform: in other nyooz, 64 connections on s.nsa node - a new record
mod6: sure there are other options. nothing quite as simple as "just blow away the .gitignore files"
punkman: mod6, nuke the empty dirs, have the build script or makefile create them when it needs them?
mod6: <+mod6> so... yah, a bash script or removal by hand. would be fine i'd think. but now i gotta test it a bit harder. if we leave empty directories in there, im worred that patch might come along at a later time and be helpful again, removing those object output diretories. << so if i do remove them by hand, have to ensure that these empty dirs wont get nuked later on accident
assbot: Logged on 19-07-2015 18:34:53; mod6: but now I'm scared that even if i /do/ remove them by hand, they might get accidentially pruned by a downstream patch (later in time) causing the makefile to puke.
mod6: <+punkman> mod6: ben reminded me to add a patch that removes the 5 .gitignore files. << I dunno why patch was needed for this, just remove them manually in next release << yeah, i mentioned that after the fact lastnight. but was discussed here: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-07-2015#1206370 << this makes sense.
assbot: Optical communications repeater - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/1Kf6tQN )
asciilifeform: they blow straight into cable ducts
punkman: guess it's cheaper than digging out shitty cables and replacing them
asciilifeform: i do not know how long they have been there, but would dare to guess that it is since the flood a few yrs ago
asciilifeform: the ones in nyc were fresh, covered in frost
asciilifeform: punkman: here in dc region they use tanks of compressed co2
asciilifeform: (since you can't stop other folks from sending you bastard garbage)
phf: i think maybe getblocks already works like "get block N" where n is block height. client sends out his top block on a chain, and server responds with a sequences (?) of blocks from then on
asciilifeform: punkman: i have yet to conceive of any wedge or other undesirable effect from it, other than a bit of wasted bandwidth
punkman: asciilifeform: I don't really have a theory. are we sure that nuked orphanage can't cause more wedges?
asciilifeform: when i saw them, i started following the hose, in hopes of finding an ln2 icecream monger !
asciilifeform: ^ apparently other folks noticed
asciilifeform: long ago, i used to work with dewars quite like these. and never expected to find them on city streets
punkman: mod6: ben reminded me to add a patch that removes the 5 .gitignore files. << I dunno why patch was needed for this, just remove them manually in next release
assbot: Logged on 02-05-2014 21:23:21; asciilifeform: instead, there are tanks of co2 chained to poles here and there
asciilifeform: (why? almost certainly for the same reason as http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-05-2014#656219 where i live)
asciilifeform: the hose disappears into a telco pit
asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/ln2.jpg << liquid n2 on the steets of manhattan. every coupla blocks
ag3nt_zer0: am i supposed to enter the entire text file, including ---Begin Public Key Block----, or just the string of shit? sorry don't know the technical term...
decimation: I suppose the serving node still has some idea of what block N is
asciilifeform: then same situation as now
phf: asciilifeform: of course the easiest option is to add a new network command, that does a sane request for initial block chain parts, but i think it can still be done within the framework of current sync model
decimation: even in the fiat world, actual people transmitting actual money would expect to pay
decimation: jurov: I was envision the miners paying for your caches, on the assumption that most folks won't want to pay a third party to clearn bitcoin
phf: mucking around with the code that desides what blocks to send to a requesting client
phf: asciilifeform: it's not a permanent stuck, but a slowdown. i haven't sent out that orphanage graph that i posted some time ago, because i'm still kicking shit around, but the beahior that you can see from it, is that blocks are sent out as multiple subchains. when a subchain arrives that's missing a parent subchain, it gets rejected many times over and over, until parent subchain is filled in. i think the behavior can be improved by
jurov: let them compete
jurov: only needs wallet that creates N copies of the tx with N addresses
asciilifeform: if the miners want to march into a usg mousetrap, no problem
decimation: I suppose my point (central clearinghouse) is that I foresee some entity like akamai that will 'magic away' this problem for miners, who will all pay for the service
asciilifeform: the current one mostly works. if sufficiently abused, and folks with actual stake in the matter get sufficiently annoyed, another one will be used
phf: re: orphanage, i'm still investigating, but there's no reason why we can't have a better initial sync block handoff strategy, that doesn't get stock, because some parent in an orphanage subchain failed to get sent out
decimation: mempool in this case being the gigantic c++ 'map' that holds transactions in memory?
asciilifeform: there are 1,001 possible ways to queue up transactions for miners to choose from
asciilifeform: think of it this way - the mempool isn't, by the same token, really 'part of bitcoin' either
decimation: but someone still needs to hold transactions until they 'clear'
asciilifeform: it was just a piece of shit stuck to the skin, not a tumour
asciilifeform: i shot that problem in the head
decimation: umm, didn't you just complain about the orphan problem?
decimation: asciilifeform: I predict the bitcoin version will be resolved with some kind of central transaction clearhouse monopoly, sadly
decimation: similarly, the 'ddos attackers' end up driving everyone to akamai, etc
decimation: the pre-digital version was expecting some kind of handout/human attenion being paid to a stranger
mircea_popescu: decimation riddle me this : you don't like reading dumb "newspapers", but how many good ones were sunk by exactly this before you heard of them ?
decimation: 'web of trust' in this case being the poorly done implmentations of smtp routing
asciilifeform: decimation: re: the orphanages, if you have them at all, what you're doing is 'i'll store this piece of shit on your say-so, and MAYBE it will be shown to be a valid block (rx) later'
decimation: no, I would argue that the benefits accrue to specific corporations
asciilifeform: decimation: it is as doomed as the cartoon wolf who walks off the cliff and does not necessarily notice - at first
decimation: asciilifeform: in this way you can see how the internet 'as is' is doomed to some degree
asciilifeform: there is a basic principle which applies equally to the 'orphanage' discussions and to today's ddos thread: NEVER give derps something valuable just for showing up
assbot: Logged on 19-07-2015 18:34:53; mod6: but now I'm scared that even if i /do/ remove them by hand, they might get accidentially pruned by a downstream patch (later in time) causing the makefile to puke.
assbot: Logged on 19-07-2015 18:26:59; asciilifeform: i've been waiting to hear somebody describe ~some~, even very theoretical, down side for those
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-07-2015#1206352 << obviously, inasmuch as they're the result of lengthy consideration / involved discussion here, their unexpected downsides shouldn't be expected to be provided by us.
decimation: you did force the attacker to lay down one card
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform well the whole thing's a parody.
asciilifeform: iirc he still thinks that ip as it exists now can be entirely abstracted over, and that the spec ought not mention details like packets
decimation: yeah I was more interested in the argument that generated it
decimation: yeah I didn't recall the encrypted part being mentioned before
asciilifeform: generally speaking, your machine - to an attacker lacking the keys - must look exactly like an empty wall socket to the enemy.
asciilifeform: it is the one and only pill against ddos
asciilifeform: but the aspect i'd like to emphasize - one which mircea_popescu thought to be an optional frill and did not include in his spec - is the single-packet authentication.
decimation: back in the day, ham radio folks used to run something much like fidonet except completely over shortwave/vhf radio
asciilifeform: gossip net is rather more like anarchist 'cells' than anything else.
asciilifeform: decimation: this is rather like saying 'proposed something like a chair, except that it flies through space and takes pictures'
asciilifeform: or even to remain the same from day to day
asciilifeform: and since we aren't a usg wankatron like tor, there is no reason for all of the 'gates' to be publicly advertised
jurov: how does the gate look? like tor enter node?
asciilifeform: why is there only one gate ?
decimation: they have valid sigs?
asciilifeform: jurov: the point is that the million wolves are, in your example, all lining up at one gate
decimation: which is roughly the position we are all in, failing to have $$ mil networks
asciilifeform: wolf gets to stay in the forest, outside city walls
asciilifeform: jurov: understand that the solution has to be deployed as a network, rather than in one point
jurov: dear decimation these ddoses have tens or hundreds gigabits... and not with 1500 byt packets
asciilifeform: probably needs to be designed the old-fashioned way, to get real performance
asciilifeform: what it means is, designed for the occasion
asciilifeform: jurov: aha. and you check them at line speed.
jurov: they need to be checked at places where do 1e6 pkt/sec flow
jurov: but if you check sigs at destination, then you haven't solved ddos at all
asciilifeform: 'mother taught me never to speak with strangers' (tm) (r)
decimation: asciilifeform: how could you route if the destination were encrypted?
asciilifeform: the heroic bandwidths are, imho, unnecessary - the only thing it needs to do extremely quickly is to reject enemy garbage
decimation: jurov: to be fair, cisco does the same thing (custom logic in router)
asciilifeform: this is also why every packet is rsa-encrypted to the destination's pubkey.
asciilifeform: SIGNATURE IN EVERY MOTHERFUCKING PACKET
asciilifeform: ^ and for other reasons.
decimation: now, the scammer could discover a 'credited ip' and run down its account
decimation: why not take the 'pay per page' subscription model one step further? 'pay to route' pakets, in btc?
decimation: granted, it's expensive to build and maintain, but it was kinda baked into the way the internet works
decimation: at any rate, it does seem that the 'content distribution network' approach is the only one that seems to hold up against this kinda crap
asciilifeform: (iirc one of us suggested this experiment nearly a year ago, but noted that the proper whitehouse oughta be used)
decimation: also, I don't know what the 'web 2.0' thing he posted a picture of is? is that some kind of dns control panel?
assbot: The lulz of today, or "you think it's only some kids that will exhaust their resources soon?" on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1TKLzL8 )
asciilifeform: this re: http://trilema.com/2015/the-lulz-of-today-or-you-think-its-only-some-kids-that-will-exhaust-their-resources-soon
gribble: The operation succeeded.
assbot: Unqualified Reservations: Technology, communism and the Brown Scare ... ( http://bit.ly/1CQghhw )
decimation: http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2013/09/technology-communism-and-brown-scare.html < " Google, of course, claims the fact that it would rather hire out of East Bosnia than East Palo Alto is a competitive trade secret. Well, I suppose. Curiously enough, Apple, Yahoo, and Oracle share the same secret. Ha, ha! Is it a secret to you? It's not a secret to me!"
assbot: Silicon Valley struggles to hack its diversity problem - The Washington Post ... ( http://bit.ly/1CQgdOH )
decimation: http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/silicon-valley-struggles-to-hack-its-diversity-problem/2015/07/16/0b0144be-2053-11e5-84d5-eb37ee8eaa61_story.html < lol the 'google is racisis' shoe is dropping, as predicted by anyone with a brain
mod6: that'll leave the dirs in place
mod6: maybe the best option is to add a one line shell script that just does: `find . -name ".gitignore" -exec rm '{}' \;`
mod6: the only thing in the obj-test directory before applying that patch is '.gitignore' so why wouldn't it be removed like obj/test and obj/nogui?
mod6: i might just be dumb. build a test env with http://dpaste.com/23VKWD8.txt and see if anyone can get the rm_gitignore.patch file to apply without removing the obj/test obj/nogui or obj-test dirrs
mod6: anyway i'll work on it. just don't use the rm_gitignore patch.
mod6: unless our solution is to add .keep files in there, which i think kinda sucks.
mod6: so... yah, a bash script or removal by hand. would be fine i'd think. but now i gotta test it a bit harder. if we leave empty directories in there, im worred that patch might come along at a later time and be helpful again, removing those object output diretories.
mod6: yah, and when applied `patch` ends up removing the dirs along with the .gitignore files because it renderes those directories empty.