mircea_popescu: only i have the privilege to stand up here and say something of the kind. because i'm part of a fucking republic.
asciilifeform: what, the rembrandt owners couldn't turn inflation off like a tap ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: well, yes. art is used precisely like bitcoin, but by the enemy.
mircea_popescu: so in plain point of fact "the guy would have gotten more in the alternative world" bla bla bla.
mircea_popescu: their" "dollars" to buy from mcdonalds and zara. money only means money in the hands of the people who can use it independently, and what someone with tens of millions to his name was in 1995, is what someone wit ha billion to his name today. i'd know.)
mircea_popescu: anyway, the main problem with that art ruling thing, getting back to it, is that revisionism in inflation is a bitch. specifically, that sale was in 2006, before the first bout of "quantitative easing". most art of all description sells today for 10x to 100x what it did two decades ago, simply because dollars today, and euros today, are scarcely worth 10 cents. (no, this does not mean nothing to the slaves that spend "
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform come to think of it - he has a deeply unwarranted sense of superiority over shaw. easily the most important thinker of the period in all the english speaking lands.
mircea_popescu: (for the younger log reader, "two-and-sixpence" is not random, but a century ago made half a crown. it is used in a sense similar to "too clever by half", because that's really what half a crown is. worse than either a whole crown or no crown at all. at least in the context of this discussion)
mircea_popescu: i meant of the orwell class.
mircea_popescu: those keep their mouth shut.
asciilifeform: idk, i saw a good number of cabbies, cooks, over there. not worked ?
mircea_popescu: the "Worker's party" of stupid people and lazy people who figure hey, if worker's in the title above the door work does itself somehow
asciilifeform: then likely allergic to germans ?
asciilifeform: the man was a newspaper columnist.
mircea_popescu: the germans. heidegger.
mircea_popescu: and i meant in the more homely sense, socialist-books and socialist-philosophy and what have you. not socialist-economy.
mircea_popescu: the most important film in support of sanity is a story of poor but stupid sicilian fishermen paid for by fucking stalin.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and btw, thinking about it - i now realise visconti, the son of the duke visconti no less, actually is the one example of resistence through culture known. his terra trema was paid for by the communist party. and in it he delivers such a trashing to the pious frauds of the communists as has never before seen.
mircea_popescu: but i meant in the more homely sense.
mircea_popescu: that part i wasnt even discussing, the "economic" side so to speak. yes, moist people are dumb and industry has no need of them, so from their perspertive industry's run by aliens. fine.
asciilifeform: the way i read him, he saw 'socialism' (in the sense of industry having a single mega-imperial owner) as a done deal, with the only question being whether the end result would have a gestapo flavour, british ponce buggery flavour, or some other
mircea_popescu: every fucking year you get at least one of the imbecile "why should i have to take an exam".
mircea_popescu: yes, the philosophy of a five year old.
asciilifeform: orwell, like - i suspect - a great many folks, carried out the algo where 'i want the kind of world in which i and others like me can sleep ad libitum and eat well' - and turned that into 'philosophy'
asciilifeform: ergo the old thread re: why a sp4mz0r wants to 'make $ while sleep'
mircea_popescu: "So perverse is mankind that every nationality prefers to be misgoverned by its own people than to be well ruled by another."
mircea_popescu: a) never was this nailed, anymore than the sun rising is "nailed".
asciilifeform: at one point, iirc, he quotes the mega-liturgical 'The rich man in his castle, / The poor man at his gate, / God made them, high or lowly, / And ordered their estate.' as an example of the kind of thing that killing christianity finally nailed, and he can't bring himself to miss it
mircea_popescu: but the cheering 5yo is still dumbn
asciilifeform: what was he to do, cry over the corpse like his contemporaries? then we would not be reading!
mircea_popescu: down with the shackles of this evil british empire of the blips which nevertheless creates the sort of people i like, even if i'm not actuaslly good enough to do anything in support. let's build utopia.
mircea_popescu: no matter! we "learn from mistakes", ie, claim that "socialism wasn't actually tried" and try again. the same thing. this time, we're printing people.,
mircea_popescu: what, you can't just print more money and the expectation to the contrary sinks early sopcialism ?
mircea_popescu: who the hell knew EVERYTHING had a cost!
mircea_popescu: why ? why, because the redditar of 1600 thought himself blessed to "waste his life away" being a "from X's circle" at the very best. whereas the redditard of 2000 thinks his life too valuable to invest in anything. he is now a thinking man, don't you know, an intellectual - everyone's an intellectual that has computers, suddenly - and a tiny little Kitschhochadel in his own right!
mircea_popescu: instead the stuff everywhere's remarkably gross.
mircea_popescu: ver really solved, life will become simpler instead of more complex, and that the sort of pleasure one gets from finding the first primrose will loom larger than the sort of pleasure one gets from eating an ice to the tune of a Wurlitzer." thing)
mircea_popescu: incidentally, even though modern pigments and computers and what have you, we're not being deluged in fine art, as "you'd expect" (if you were say orwell or some other dumb schmuck with the If a man cannot enjoy the return of spring, why should he be happy in a labour-saving Utopia? What will he do with the leisure that the machine will give him? I have always suspected that if our economic and political problems are e
mircea_popescu: this being the only "american innovation" ?
asciilifeform: they have, after all, learned to manufacture those, back in ru.
asciilifeform: nah. tards 'cause the thing wasn't full of saltpetre and didn't light well!
mircea_popescu: does not even agree with "tards" to any degree. yes they sound like monkeys. this is not retarded for their age, healthy 17 yo boys sound like that.
mircea_popescu: see, these kids is the fundamental reason a) ru young women are well fucked (well means more than just a lot) and b) the chechens aren't isis.
asciilifeform: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sV942i_zbzE << minus the tards, for anyone who needs it.
mircea_popescu: 325 views ? "obligatory" ? is this like... made by your gf's younger brother or something ? howdja find it
asciilifeform: one of those things that everybody knew the wordz to.
mircea_popescu: whadda they know for it.
mircea_popescu: because they're as ignorant as my dirty socks.
asciilifeform: ^ famous 'second-system effect'! like 'multics.' for that matter, it is an atrocity that scholarly discussions of 'second-system' and 'multics' do not mention the kv !
mircea_popescu: and whjen they gave up their random approach, they came up with the kv, an overengineered useless pos.
mircea_popescu: and the tank was not, strictly speaking, a tank.
asciilifeform: rather than an actual decision-making mechanism
asciilifeform: except it was not, largely, 'law' which maintained order. 'law' was simply the religious incantation uttered by judge before a troublemaker was sent to meet his fate
mircea_popescu: on the practical side, they both WORKED, if one's tolerant with the concept. soviet law maintained order in a larger thing than the us, better than the us managed.
mircea_popescu: they're both equally ridiculous things, for the same exact reason : made "as best we could" by the russians of the time, who were peasants not lawmakers or tank makers. they have all the qualities of chinese farm steel.
asciilifeform: they solved it with 'law'.
asciilifeform: there was, i think, a third, more pressing problem: why ought the sultan rule, when he can invent bureaucracy and have amoebas rule in his stead, while he bangs 10,000 chicks/year and smokes opium
mircea_popescu: then tell me.
mircea_popescu: ag3nt_zer0 see "la terra trema". think that the film was made in the 1950s by using RANDOM LOCALS
mircea_popescu: wheresoever that place is, whosoever sits in it, has the same twin problem no matter what.
mircea_popescu: well look, you agree with the broad idea that no man made thing may endure without a place the buck stops ?
asciilifeform: the spray paint was thinner in those days
mircea_popescu: but you're familiar with the roman, and originally greek notions of "broke the laws of men and gods" yes ?
mircea_popescu: you do this because you don't recognise the fundamental tension, and so examples in one line cloud your estimation of the other.
mircea_popescu: roman practice suffered the tension, but also made it amply abundant
asciilifeform: i see the proceedings of that court as similar to those of all modern courts: a continuation of the basic lie of 'rule of law', where 'it is not the sultan who condemns you to impalement, but the majesty of the law'
mircea_popescu: the other's a more fundamental type of dispute, you could stilisize as "between man and god".
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes. vaguely speaking, one's a contest among the crowd of boys. "everyone wants to be the one at the wheel, so who shall ?"
mircea_popescu: but honestly, Visconti is probably the best dirctor that ever lived.
mircea_popescu: or how shall i put this, there are two types of question justice answers.
mircea_popescu: you have a strange equivocation of power an' legitimacy going on there, asciilifeform
asciilifeform: and the 'questionable' is 'surely genuine' when ragged man goes to jail and the canvas finds its way to lord rothchild.
ag3nt_zer0: and Irving and Elmyr are quite the characters haha
assbot: Logged on 06-03-2015 03:29:02; mircea_popescu: making money is a purely ~political~ function. if you are among the favoured elite of the respublica veneta, you then may invest in the ships, and make a profit. if not, not.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: consider, http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=06-03-2015#1044114 - ergo, 'this vermeer, in the gallery of our esteemed lord rothchild, is genuine. this picasso, in the suitcase of this ragged thief and scoundrel, is most certainly questionable.'
assbot: Logged on 22-08-2015 19:30:03; mircea_popescu: the merit of a pgp signature is that it delivers them from having to do this.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-08-2015#1248670 << i still see ~actual authentication~ as being ~incidental~ to these proceedings. as in j.e.hoover's famous quip 'justice is incidental to law and order'
ag3nt_zer0: of irony, de Hory's interviewer is author Clifford Irving, who became infamous due to a forgery of his own: a falsified autobiography of Howard Hughes. Welles openly re-edits and manipulates this footage, using it as a spine for his own commentary, arguing that there is an extremely close relationship between art and lying, and citing instances from his own career to prove the point."
ag3nt_zer0: "The final directorial project the legendary Orson Welles completed during his lifetime, F for Fake is less a documentary than an example of cinematic free association on the topic of trickery. Much of the film is in fact drawn from other sources, most notably an unfinished documentary by Francois Reichenbach on the notorious Elmyr de Hory, whose extremely skillful forgeries of famous paintings caused scandals amongst art
mircea_popescu: nonono. there is such a thing as "identify typewriter"
mircea_popescu: do not think that the intelligent people caught like bubbles in the fiat mire are happy to be there.
asciilifeform: like that czech short story, author i can't recall, where a 'graphologist' is made to pronounce re: the authenticity of a typewritten page!
asciilifeform: i can't wait till they start doing circus like this for, e.g., a pgp signature
mircea_popescu: Giovanni Bellini means that in their opinion, this is a work in the style of Bellini and of a later date. vii) After Giovanni Bellini means that in their opinion, this is a copy of a known work of Bellini.
mircea_popescu: k by an as yet unidentified but distinct hand, closely associated with Bellini but not necessarily his pupil. v) Style/Follower of Giovanni Bellini means that, in their opinion, this is a work by a painter working in Bellini's style, contemporary or nearly contemporary, but not necessarily his pupil. Contemporary or nearly contemporary' means that it was painted within about 50 years of Bellini's work. vi) Manner of
mircea_popescu: Bellini means that, in Sotheby's opinion, this is probably a work by Bellini, but there is less certainty expressed as to authorship than in the preceding category. iii) Studio of Giovanni Bellini means that, in their opinion, this is a work by an unknown hand in the studio of Bellini, and it may or may not have been executed under his direction. iv) Circle of Giovanni Bellini means that, in their opinion, it is a wor
mircea_popescu: For every auction sale, a catalogue is produced describing each painting to be sold. Every entry indicates the certainty with which Sotheby's is prepared to attribute it to a particular artist. The catalogue entry may describe a painting in the following ways: i) Simply putting the name of the artist, for example, Giovanni Bellini,' means that, in Sotheby's opinion, the work is by Bellini. ii) Attributed to Giovanni
assbot: Logged on 22-08-2015 13:05:58; punkman: "before he resigned from the library he realized that his trick had occurred to someone else. Several of the paintings he made had been replaced, his copies stolen. So the Academy was exhibiting fakes of fakes and someone was selling, or trying to sell, art by Xiao."
mod6: good deal. i'll see what I can do about the mechanical checking and rebasing maybe later tonight, or tomorrow for sure.
mod6: yup yup, i recall. just trying to make sure i'm on the right track so i don't waste everyones time :]
asciilifeform: mod6: these look superficially correct, but need to be 1) compared mechanically and 2) rebased as i spoke of earlier
mod6: asciilifeform: ok, got it figured: check here please: http://thebitcoin.foundation/misc/rel1-test-20150822.patch && http://thebitcoin.foundation/misc/rel2-pre-test-20150822.patch
asciilifeform: and stirred or it bakes onto the pot
asciilifeform: (in the old days)
asciilifeform knows of this dish only from father, who travelled a good bit in ro
asciilifeform: the porrige? nothing wrong with that
mircea_popescu: perhaps the only time romania's ww1 peculiar dish was eaten here this millenium
mircea_popescu: "no, i dont think they were townpeople [ie idiots] because when sitting to repast they took out mamaliga cu brinza like normal pewople]
mircea_popescu: so then.
mircea_popescu: they did say so!
asciilifeform: ate because it was 'on the menu'
mircea_popescu: incidentally, isn't this also strictly wrong ? wasn't it the case that the whole village ate ~the exact same dish~ every day forever ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i have nfi why you think 'in savour or hue, no comrades have you' better than "in color or taste there's no comrades"
asciilifeform: hence why i said 'they annoint under pretence of adjudicating'
mircea_popescu: rank fucking nonsense. it should be clearly obvious this is not something the court can do.
mircea_popescu: And then, when the experts have come to their conclusion, and that conclusion is challenged in court, (as opposed to the marketplace or in critical writing), a judge must decide that the experts were right or wrong.
mircea_popescu: ely almost entirely on expert opinion concerning the quality of the art, that is to say, is the quality of the art being examined of the quality expected of a painting by the artistin this case, Caravaggio.
mircea_popescu: Authenticating a work of art is often difficult, and more difficult when the art is four or five hundred years old, and at least one tool for the expert, to wit, provenance, is often limited or non-existent. And, science (materials analysis) does not get us very far since many of the problems for Old Masters come right out of the artist's studio (think Rembrandt). Thus, for Old Masters at least, the expert is left to r
mircea_popescu: great idea, great painting, why does the woman's face look like it was peeled off asphalt pizza
mircea_popescu: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/Edouard_Manet_-_Luncheon_on_the_Grass_-_Google_Art_Project.jpg < wtf is that.
mircea_popescu: anyway, upon consideration venus does have to some degree the sharp features of the ideal fox. at least moreso than all the piefaces everyone wants to paint for some reason
mircea_popescu: >in< color and taste there aren't comrades
asciilifeform: of all the ones i can recall.
mircea_popescu: much like maja has the face of a sly thirteen year old.
mircea_popescu: but i don't mean copacetically like. i mean like like one's supposed to like art : un coup fumant. if she came off the toille you'd have no choice but to drop everything and marry her.
mircea_popescu: but anyway, this suggests a fine exercise for the esteemed lordship and beyond. not everything in this life is code, and a gentleman needs to study and know a loit more than rubies. so therefore : which classical nude do you like the face of ?
mircea_popescu: i don't remember any classical nude i like the face of.
asciilifeform: this is because mircea_popescu is still thinking of these items as artwork, to look at
mircea_popescu: and the historical master's taste in women shows they never met any for crying out loud.
mircea_popescu: besides, the modern copy can be fix. i much prefer my own rewrites of classical poems to the originals anwyay.
mircea_popescu would not feel particularly better for owning the "actual" copy of a painting he likes rather than a very good one. actually i'd feel like a total fool.
asciilifeform: but the pretence is maintained so rockefeller's stash can be inflationproof. and folks who try to fuck with the pretence, often Have Problems.
mircea_popescu: so it's kinda a forgone conclusion, art authenticity.
mircea_popescu: the only illegal part is fraud, obviously.
mircea_popescu: not like the things are under copyright anymore.
mircea_popescu: also, the thing is, it's perfectly legal to order and own, and trade etc COPIES
asciilifeform: (hence the linked article where chinese fella used vintage paper, ink)
mircea_popescu: which is how 99% of these "fake fine art" arguments are settled - no eggyolk in the pigment or shit
asciilifeform: except that we have a handful of wealthy and demented folk who turned the whole shebang into a kind of primitive altcoin
mircea_popescu: ("oh this march is from 1722 and then they put antimony in the brass. this march was a fake!)
mircea_popescu: much like a good performance of a march does not get anulled through having been "not the original" and nobody sticks around to compare the brass instruments used
asciilifeform: (and i bet there are 25 films like this)
mircea_popescu: (goya has a dressed maja and a nude one, they were goin to make "la maja en chemise")
mircea_popescu: italian comic of the war period.
asciilifeform: not twice as happy if he can't buy 2x the turkeys
asciilifeform: i am enthusiastically in favour of elaborate art fraudsters if they can ddos this process.
mircea_popescu: what part of doublethink you think got cancelled ? the man with two maja desnudas simply is twice as happy.
asciilifeform: rockefeller's vermeer is genuine and fuckyou because he is rockefeller; the one mr schmuck found in his cellar - will be annointed fake (or no one will even bother) unless it suits a rockefeller to bless it.
asciilifeform: but, if understand correctly, there is an alternate hypothesis: the costly and elaborate 'authentification' is not to authenticate, but to annoint
asciilifeform: before you know it, they're boat ballast
mircea_popescu: this is like, "it doesn't work if i come back home and there's TWO almost dressed blondies waiting for me"
asciilifeform: only if they can be provenanced.
mircea_popescu: at the mental level where us adults are, $500 mn for soccer trading cards would not be amiss.
asciilifeform: not common enough! if there are still $40mil auctions for'em
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-08-2015#1248274 << you know this is ~extremely~ common. maybe even half the fine art privately owned / displayed at any time is fake.
mircea_popescu: incidentally, why the fuck is ^ called a caret. a caret is supposed to go below the line.
asciilifeform: they go well with tea
mircea_popescu: mebbe they made a soup, who knows. ima ask teh girls.
asciilifeform: add to a collection thereof, i suppose.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: not sure what i was thinking there!
mod6: lemme blow these away
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform say, you keep sending me these carets, what are they supposed to do ? add to my collection ?
asciilifeform: they have to match.
mod6: the hashes don't match.
mod6: yeah. you know... was just looking at these closer. i think i screwed something up
mod6: ok, here is the diffs between your posted patches w/timestamps v. new ones w/o ts: http://thebitcoin.foundation/misc/rel1-test-20150822.patch && http://thebitcoin.foundation/misc/rel2-pre-test-20150822.patch
asciilifeform: recall, there is no notion of time.
asciilifeform: this is still not a 100% solution, because we have ~no means of ordering patches other than hashes~
asciilifeform: mod6: no, understand, such a patch being submitted will wedge the machine.
mod6: yeah, well, i agree, if somehow they end up restoring something back to its original sha512 something is wrong. or something needed to be rolled back for some reason.
asciilifeform: my present understanding is that the only solution to this is that i intend to negrate anyone who EVER does this.
asciilifeform: re: earlier thread: a few hours of thinking led me to another potential boojum in 'v' : cyclic graphs
mod6: that way too im not doing the '-d' gymnastics
asciilifeform: we resolved it before by doing shell gymnastics with the dir
asciilifeform: there is inconsistency
asciilifeform: in the original 'orchestra'
mod6: eek! in the signed one?
asciilifeform: presently some of them are, e.g., '+++ b/src/foo' and this slipped past my eyes
asciilifeform: to be specific, all diff hunks should take the form seen in 'genesis', where '--- a/bitcoin/src/foo', '+++ b/bitcoin/src/foo'
mod6: <+asciilifeform> can either do this yourself, or wait several days until i get around to it. << i might get some more time to play around tonight. we'll see
mod6: <+asciilifeform> mod6: diff with the old set, and see that nothing but timestamps is at variance << can post this here in a bit for your review
asciilifeform: can either do this yourself, or wait several days until i get around to it.
asciilifeform: mod6: they also need to be rebased (paths adjusted) so that they ~all~ apply from the root dir (where the patches live.)
asciilifeform: mod6: also might want to try applying the patches, sequentially.
asciilifeform: mod6: if so, then safe to sign.
asciilifeform: mod6: diff with the old set, and see that nothing but timestamps is at variance
mod6: asciilifeform: ok I regenerated all of the rel1 & rel2-pre patches with the new vdiff -- you want to review 'em?
asciilifeform: fluffypony: the 'fun' on mac begins when you diverge from traditional bsd utils and try using items like perl, python, or - satan forbid - attempt to work with init scripts or other customary denizens of /etc/
asciilifeform: less so today, in digital circuits, than in the old days of analogue amps in everything
ben_vulpes: for those following the macos travails, cp does not have a --parents, instead has a -p
ben_vulpes: the whole thing, man.
asciilifeform: now the ideal thing would be to hook deedbot straight up to this.
asciilifeform: importantly, these need to be detached (own file) signatures. specifically ~not~ like this: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-August/000150.html
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: it is important that everyone who works on therealbitcoin sign 'genesis' and distribute said signature.
asciilifeform: no vpatch, with the exception of 'genesis', should ever be longer than a few pages of text.
asciilifeform: the closest thing we have to a 'commit' here is the act of creating, signing, and distributing a vpatch.
asciilifeform: if any aspect of the basic theory here is the least bit unclear to any of you, i want to hear about it asap.
asciilifeform: to further work the example, the 'antipatch' is only necessary if ben_vulpes's chain builds on any of asciilifeform's patches which have the unwanted patch as antecedent.
asciilifeform: aficionados of 'functional programming' will recognize the 'v' data structure as so-called 'immutable'.
asciilifeform: i am emphatically ~not~ recreating 'git' or the like.
asciilifeform: it avoids polluting the mechanism with special cases.
trinque: seems the most honest representation of that
asciilifeform: creating the antipatch is likely to require some manual manipulation.
asciilifeform: the thing he ends up having to do is to create an antipatch for that one, and place it on the head of his longest chain.
asciilifeform: one potentially warty aspect of 'v' is that let's say ben_vulpes agrees with all of asciilifeform's longest-chain patches but one, somewhere in the middle.
asciilifeform: but theoretically it is now possible to submit sigs for the same thing, and they will match.
asciilifeform: jurov's current script, unfortunately makes it necessary to post the payload (genesis) with the sig, in order for the message to come through.
asciilifeform: then sign and post your sig.
asciilifeform: 'v' will recursively walk the hashes in the release and apply the necessary vpatches to produce the tree.
asciilifeform: is the idea.
asciilifeform: trinque: i did the genesis.vpatch thing solely to simplify 'v' build system, which i was working on; such that there is no longer any shenanigans with tarballs, copying of crud, etc
trinque: yeah, I made the LC_ALL=C change
asciilifeform: with caveat that gnupatch will no longer keep you from applying the same patch twice.
asciilifeform: which left the timestamps. then experimented with abolishing timestamps in diffs entirely. this works
asciilifeform: earlier there were problems with different folks getting different (bitwise) genesis.vpatch - which i traced down to 'locale' retardation in gnudiff
trinque: the thing's damned cool
trinque: I thought this was the exercise
asciilifeform: so won't match in the bitwise sense
asciilifeform: the original manifest used sha256
trinque: diff with your genesis.vpatch is now of course the timestamps
trinque: result of patch -p1 < genesis.vpatch is a tree which matches the manifest.
trinque: there found it
asciilifeform: mod6 used it to produce the latest genesis.
fluffypony: so 6 hours till North Korea says they'll retaliate
mats: asciilifeform has seen the movie 'American Hustle'?