mircea_popescu: (in kbr's case, it's not that they're stupid, it's that they were raped. the classic "we provide indemnity so now you may not not break the law as we tell you to" trick. "key is in your pocket" in legal parlance)
phf: asciilifeform: yeah, suggestion is not intended as the correct solution. more like send kill -HUP -> system goes into an hour long snapshot state
mircea_popescu: tis the truth. i personally wouldn't work with a rogue entity even if it promises "rly for srs" to cover my legal costs.
mircea_popescu: but otherwise, who the fuck do you think will ever work for them without indemnity ?
mircea_popescu: obv govt will try to wiggle out of its own promises, being the government of the united states that's at issue here.
asciilifeform: (grep output. looking at the actual log presently)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform on your node and each and every other node i know of.
assbot: Logged on 01-09-2015 23:50:16; mircea_popescu: i have a mile of logs showing the behaviour without exception.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: a corp with zero income, tonnes of spending, no plausible reason for existence save tax shelter for a schmuck, and zero usg blessing (rather the opposite!) is just a request for gassing
mircea_popescu: i have a mile of logs showing the behaviour without exception.
kakobrekla: magic packet that plugs the mains cable?
assbot: Logged on 01-09-2015 23:10:57; trinque: tax avoidance is a foolish move if you're dealing in their currency
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-09-2015#1259268 << also recall the several threads where i explained that not only are virtually all of my expenses (and 100% of income) denominated in usd, but specifically the insta-trackable electronic kind.
assbot: Logged on 01-09-2015 22:19:12; mircea_popescu: trinque note that, importantly, you also need a particular sort of helpless population. the afghani have been bombed pretty much constantly since the 70s, did nothing.
asciilifeform: aaaand it would have to be db-aware, because has to remember now ~which~ moduli in db are represented in the snapshot..
asciilifeform: because have to somehow regenerate the lost product
asciilifeform: phf: or, if this is only for period snapshots, then yes
assbot: Logged on 01-09-2015 22:21:22; phf: asciilifeform: what about something like this http://paste.lisp.org/display/154647, put a flag on sighup, put a couple of checks (i'm not sure if my guess as far as mainloop is correct) for the flag, do a stop the world snapshot. can have it running normally, periodically send kill -HUP ...
ben_vulpes: hanbot: i once cooked up a wiki page on the topic. has since languished, rotted, died.
ben_vulpes: work on this thing cannot be marshalled. must be self-organized, by the selves so involved.
assbot: Logged on 01-09-2015 19:10:19; mike_c: but "know each other" != "know what everyone is working on at all times"
ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-09-2015#1258801 << you and i i think are coming at this from the wrong angle.
ben_vulpes: "every software development company eventually ends up writing their own issue tracker, time tracker, and billing system."
hanbot: it's a full day just following along the ml, honestly.
trinque: why take the risk?
trinque: tax avoidance is a foolish move if you're dealing in their currency
jurov: the govt.. and try make that up on VAT
jurov: deedbot-: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/attachments/20150902/attachment_a339ad5e335ee4a41bd52737e69623d7b3355301.txt
trinque: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/you-think-the-stock-market-is-crazy-look-at-oil-prices/2015/09/01/63b35f40-50e9-11e5-b225-90edbd49f362_story.html << money's sloshing all over the place
ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-09-2015#1258703 << he fought the law, foolishly, and the law won. as it does.
trinque: ah, then I'm way behind
mircea_popescu: trinque the fed mostly owns privately issued paper anyway. mostly bond bundles, but most of them are tied to stocks (via banks) so in point of fact the fed owns atm ~118-122% or so of the entire us economy
assbot: Logged on 01-09-2015 16:57:22; *: btcdrak wonders where he can short Mike and Gavin's reputation which seem to be going down in flames along with the XT movement.
trinque: speaking of bombing, when does the Fed start buying stocks directly
trinque: because civilization is something which happens in the absence-of, not something which happened due to some particular mechanism of conditioning
phf: asciilifeform: what about something like this http://paste.lisp.org/display/154647, put a flag on sighup, put a couple of checks (i'm not sure if my guess as far as mainloop is correct) for the flag, do a stop the world snapshot. can have it running normally, periodically send kill -HUP ...
mircea_popescu: or called for! or fair to the black people!
mircea_popescu: people who've decided "they just want to X".
mircea_popescu: trinque note that, importantly, you also need a particular sort of helpless population. the afghani have been bombed pretty much constantly since the 70s, did nothing.
trinque: speaks to maybe their sense of impunity but nothing else
mircea_popescu: (this is also why the agreement wass in england that if hitler had in fact the resources and the will to continue bombing for six weeks he'd have won the war with britain.
mircea_popescu: when you beat a slave, it is educative because she knows that this is strictly reality, and the only way out is internalised change.
mircea_popescu: if you go kloink some dude on the street upside the head, he'll just think himself mistreated, go look for places to complain - the police station, the church, wherever.
mircea_popescu: i think i said it before, but anyway : the important thing about a beating isn't the actual beating, but the part that forces the recipient to internalise he has no recourse.
mircea_popescu: the important point about bombs is not the destruction. it's that they are loud and enforce in the recipient a taste of his own powerlessness.
mircea_popescu: these are kinda different.
trinque: sure wasn't that in california somewhere (among others probably)
ascii_field: hypothesis.
trinque: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/illinois-police-officer-shot-prompting-manhunt-reports-article-1.2344209 << another cop shot too
mircea_popescu: in other news, "you charging passerbys for the sexual use of your wife is very bad because she'll lose mindshare. should give her away for free, and then raise the children. experts agree!"
mircea_popescu: also what "stealing the stealing" is. check out gcc, and it's "mindshare". because that's what we're calling reddit votes now.
mircea_popescu: and perhaps the best illustration in history of what ~exactly~ "flag of convenience" means.
mircea_popescu: The dearth of actually successful Open Source companies (where Open Source is part of a permanent rather than an exit strategy) makes it pretty clear that this "realistic" advertising strategy is not actually founded in much realism.
mircea_popescu: Uh, Eric Raymond explicitly created the "Open Source" label exactly to appeal to industry players who considered bothering with principles suspicious. So yes, Open Source is for people without principles. That's not Stallman's pitch, but an explicit design goal of the Open Source agenda. To replace the appeal to principles, a bunch of technical and marketing criteria are propounded.
assbot: Logged on 10-02-2015 22:07:54; asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the llvm thing, prior to career as apple crud, had a previous life as a darling plaything of u.s. 'comp sci' academitardia
assbot: Logged on 15-02-2015 21:43:42; asciilifeform: 'but Richard is seemingly frightened about the compiler competition from LLVM that is out under a permissive free software license.' << fud artist lies through his teeth. rms is not 'frightened of competition under permissive licenses', but is pointing out that organized attack by shitgnomes flying (as always) flags of convenience, is under way.
mircea_popescu: ributions and use just to stay even with them."
mircea_popescu: or to quote the webexperts in derpxertises, "The elephant in the room is that GCC and emacs aren't competing against proprietary compilers so much as they are against LLVM and clang. Whichever one has better features and support for programming is going to win mindshare and without mindshare you are dead. This is compounded by the fact that there are several major corporations helping LLVM along so you need steady cont
mircea_popescu: which is why the design eventually failed.
assbot: Logged on 01-09-2015 16:42:32; ascii_field: little monkeys who want to take the 'good bits', file off the serial numbers, and run with'em
jurov: also, i suspect i recently started using more proxies, which may have exacerbated the problem.. it's arduous to research, not done yet
jurov: did you read my mpex manual? it's explained there
jurov: if i had to stop it every time there's unexpected balance discrepance, that would be several times per day
jurov: what other notification do you need?
mats: in the future some prior notification would be nice so i could shift into neutral
ascii_field: i personally would not be very astonished to end up killed in some variation on this theme.
ascii_field: thestringpuller: i only ~wish~ i could avoid leaving house
thestringpuller: ascii_field: this is why you avoid leaving the house huh?
ascii_field: but this requires not only rewrite but the remaking of pgpdump lib !
ascii_field: also would be nice to NOT ignore the 5% or so of sks keys that have utf8-isms in'em
ascii_field: mircea_popescu is very much right that the thing ought to save itself nightly. but this in fact requires rewrite.
ascii_field: (incidentally, it ~is~ possible to do this faster by splitting multiplications into a tree and distributing between machines. but this is considerably more moving part than what we have now, and quite enough for ph.d. thesis)
mircea_popescu: i do care about airing air for the next two months.
mircea_popescu: i don't care about the site being down an hour a day, to save its guts.
ascii_field: consider, flip so much as one bit in the product
ascii_field: and it is the only way of having moduli be retestable without temporarily unphuctoring them
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: some things cannot be retrofitted. this is one of them.
ascii_field: rather than flagging 'phuctored moduli'
ascii_field: thing is, it also needs to be rebuilt as discussed before, where it stores ~known factors of any given modulus~ in the db
mircea_popescu: it occurs to me this;d be a fine project for a young gent. "here's this code alf himself wrote (in two hours). here's the problem. fix it without breaking anyhing!"
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: the non-www part, yes
mircea_popescu: iirc the code was release no ?
ascii_field: jurov: appreciate, the thing was written in a coupla hours.
jurov: you swear on bitcoind's bdb hardwired in, yet you apparently did the same with phuctor and sqlite? O.o
mircea_popescu: what does your factorizer do if the db returns "wait" or w/e it returns if a lock's active
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: not effectively. recall, the two processes do not know about one another.
ascii_field: mno, what happens is that the result is not consistent.
mircea_popescu: ascii_field go in as root, lock the db, dump it, unlock it.
mircea_popescu: the design as described is good, and it should be db-replicated
mircea_popescu: to whom, and where the fuck was he looking
mircea_popescu: orly ? they have shown this ?
mircea_popescu: "I was amazed that they were able to persuade RMS not to block the conversion to C++, and as the article points out, five years of plugins have not led to disaster;"
ascii_field: this, too, means rewriting a good chunk of the thing.
mircea_popescu: no problem there.
mircea_popescu: ascii_field can't it be made to dump the product to disk along with some state every however long ? once a day ?
ascii_field: but do not have the time, and don't know when i will.
mircea_popescu: "I recognize that you don't want me to "change the subject" to refactoring, but I don't see this as a change of subject."
ascii_field: so they will pull power every day
ascii_field: there is NO WAY to save it after every multiplication!
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: even with optimal design, it can save the product of moduli perhaps once per 24h
mircea_popescu: software that's more friable than the hardware is a bad idea.
ascii_field: rather than multi-hour outages
ascii_field: supposing the place is actually a data center and has ~some~ backup power
ascii_field: if i can put a 12v lead-acid cell in the 1u colo,
mircea_popescu: stop using whatever it takes, but the idea is, if a power outage a season means it does no useful work worth the mention, we can't have it. because we no longer live in the world of our forefathers, where shit worked. even obama gets power interrupted once a year.
mircea_popescu: lol well this will need a redesign then.
kakobrekla: there is too many or to few womenz in ams.
ascii_field: kakobrekla: it is presently not working other than for the display of old results. and will not work again until it gets 6+ weeks of uninterrupted mains current.
ascii_field: iirc what mircea_popescu painstakingly explained in that old thread is that there is not, of course, a magical incantation which makes a 'revoked' key stop working
kakobrekla: when the phuctor is down i guess.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla on occasion they are.
mircea_popescu: i wouldn't fault you for ignoring them. i would fault you for "handling" an undefined concept in a weird way.
mats: so, practically, i shouldn't even bother handling revocation signatures?
mircea_popescu: the concept as intuited by gpg users is meaningless.
assbot: Logged on 15-05-2015 03:34:04; assbot: Logged on 14-05-2015 21:44:05; ascii_field: i'm kinda curious why mircea_popescu considers a new key signed with a previous key to not be a logical continuation of the same identity. (is it because of the impossibility of hard-guaranteed revocation, as discussed in previous thread?)
mats: because search is broken i am having trouble discovering the revocation thread. anyone have a link, or would mind explaining implications for e.g. keyserver?
ascii_field: not only that, but rms is not mircea_popescu and the thieves would cry 'stop thief', sue inventor for using own item, and win.
mircea_popescu: and his solution to it was a sort of "so i'll release just the tip"
mircea_popescu: anyway, basically stallman saw the problem of "if i release bitcoin then the twerps will get it and pretend to be using it, and then pretend to be improving on it and soon enough it will be indistinguishable from the sort of shit that it was made to kill. because the source of the shit drowning us is neither god nor the aliens nor unforseen circumstances - it's the lesser apes we insist on calling humans for no reason."
assbot: Logged on 01-09-2015 16:07:54; ben_vulpes: and the 'open source world' went along with this for how long?
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-09-2015#1258454 << you don't understand, it's fine when we do it. and the people we like. and poettering.
jurov: okay. another concern would be?
mircea_popescu: jurov that'd be the least of my concerns.
mircea_popescu: on our own site. in the comments section.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla no you know, he's saved it there because that way, if we do something fishy, the record will be left behind.
thestringpuller: with the circumstances
jurov: ascii_field: you relish in impossible requirements, don't you? i just that ... palpable improvement over some box no one in the wot ever saw, is possible
mike_c: I guess he trusts you not to muck with his comment more than to get the payments right :)
ascii_field: let them magicpacket my fpga.
ascii_field: jurov: kinda why i want to place arbitrary hardware of my own making in there
jurov: what was the proximate cause ?
jurov: also, what if lizards reboot the machine remotely with magic packets?
ascii_field: jurov: if this were me, and here in this town, i would set up the batteries, tamper sensors, mains loggers, camera...
mircea_popescu: jurov but to be perfectly clear, this is a deal where you physically have access to the boxes in question and nobody else touches them
jurov: mircea_popescu: yes i will ask about the locking and exact dimensions. also will need someone to make the shopping list and plan,
mircea_popescu: am i the only one getting spam from people trying to push blog-on-app "solutions" ?
mircea_popescu: anyway, iirc the french kid that was going to do one of the versions of the job board thing got upset and left in part because iho he was waitinfg for me.
ascii_field: 'in my days we got forty rods to the hog's head and we loved it!!'
mircea_popescu: another very important chunk of the story is the fallout from the "causes not purposes" philosophy. all b-a software exists because, not for, and this is HOW we end up with things like "well we now have this v-jewel, what's it for ?"
mircea_popescu: jurov so it would be ~600 bucks for 8u of space, then hire you to manage it and then buy the actual machines. as an upside you actually have physical access and will lock down the boxes ?
phf: mike_c: ah but it's not true that nobody has those lists. ascii has one, i'm sure does mp, mod6 and ben_vulpes. i keep one too from reading the logs in a text file
mike_c: ascii_field: the locking thing is not the biggest thing to me, more the accurate list of things that could/should be done.
ascii_field: mike_c: can you think of a time when two+ people ended up doing the same things?
mike_c: I think we may be close to the line.
ascii_field: however, i am not convinced that merely following the conversation here is not bugtracky enough
ascii_field: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/attachments/20150831/v_429012f762de1faf81e97b14832c2a9098ec851b.py << here.
mike_c: no, neither does anyone else.
mike_c: perhaps then less is more. just a todo-list with open/closed and claimed/unclaimed. communication all stays on mailing list
ascii_field: would this be true of a hypothetical 'bugtracker with v' ?
ascii_field: just a place to park the latest stuff
ascii_field: mike_c: the beauty of 'v' is that no server, as such, is needed
assbot: WATCH: Florida pastor says women should greet their husbands looking ‘spiffed up’ with a hot meal waiting ... ( http://bit.ly/1fTBaNP )
shinohai: http://www.rawstory.com/2015/09/watch-florida-pastor-says-women-should-greet-their-husbands-looking-spiffed-up-with-a-hot-meal-waiting/ XD
jurov: then i can irl negrate people
mats: 'yǐ yí zhì yí' is the pinyin
phf: mircea_popescu: i've come to appreciate the approach from observing it. one person who shapes the entire thing, and everyone else works with the given directions or else operates fully autonomously. people can still form subgroups for short term goals, but without imposing structure on the rest. etc. etc.
mats: it is attached, my keyboard isn't setup: the three accents are associated with three of the four tones in pinyin
mike_c: perhaps I see it too simply. It is the way for me to get source code from people I designate as trusted.
jurov: here i would be able to manage the hardware with my own hands
assbot: Logged on 01-09-2015 19:08:42; mircea_popescu: no, v is the only correct solution to "windows update" problem.
mircea_popescu: which is how you end up with disputes like the one re scope above ( http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-09-2015#1258788 )
mats: ascii_field: translates loosely to '[learning] the way of the barbarians to control barbarians'
mircea_popescu: mike_c incidentally the reason i won't recite a todo list for v (and deleted alf's proposed list) is specifically because we don't even understand yet fully its implication. bitcoin-like.
mircea_popescu: in any case the concept of "democratic self management" is about as idiotic as it gets. like a one-legged chair.
mircea_popescu: and i think it's the only way to go.
mike_c: who will not suffer wot penalty for not doing what they claimed
mircea_popescu: phf the way "claiming" has to date worked in b-a has been as a gubernatorial function, mostly me encouraging/discouraging people from certain projects.
phf: mike_c: there's a recent openbsd presentation that argues against claiming. their point is that the problem of duplicate effort is a lot rarer then lock grabs. and i must add duplicate effort always results in increased understanding if both solutions are analyzed
trinque: not the list, but say you want to explain why you did something
mike_c: mhm. recite the todo list for V :D
mike_c: and the list of "what needs to be done"?
mircea_popescu: mike_c my definition of "know each other" is, "they can navigate the who's doing what maze". that's the bar.
mircea_popescu: all of them.
mircea_popescu: in point of fact all the bitcoin-copy altcoins could just as well have run on v
mircea_popescu: mike_c understand, there's no promise that V will result in even similar bitcoins.
mike_c: but "know each other" != "know what everyone is working on at all times"
trinque: might not be a bad thing that they do all duplicate effort
mircea_popescu: how about "people who don't know each other aren't working on the same software, no matter what they might think"
mike_c: just like someone claims something on your job board and you put their name on it
mircea_popescu: no, v is the only correct solution to "windows update" problem.
mike_c: there are ~10 things that could/should be done
ascii_field: 'v' is for small groups of t3rr0r1stz who all quasi-know each other and share a wot
ascii_field: i dare say this may be an example of the kind of thing one doesn't actually need unless already in a state of dire sin
trinque: and at that, maybe it's a docs folder in the actual bitcoind project
mircea_popescu: trinque no, the market is an utter shitmess.
trinque: betcha not a single person did this right either, as with VCS
mircea_popescu: hes got to use something to make the graphs
mike_c: mod6, ben_vulpes: does the foundation have any ideological opinions on something like trac?
mircea_popescu: if this isn't proof that people pick their life, nothing is.
mircea_popescu: they're exactly your stage +2. "since we gotta have all these llcs anyway, hopw about we derp more"
mircea_popescu: WHY do you think they keep doing those, huh ?
trinque: sure, you're not the only one.
mircea_popescu: the same head that yields beautiful code also yields legal arguments, yo!
mircea_popescu: you're the fucking same thing in a different color scheme already!
mircea_popescu: im telling you, whether you'll like it or not : this conversation is to me indistinguishable from conversation with blondy who has decided "she doesn't have a math head". meanwhile she has exceptionally keen eye for shoes, to a degree most math heads could not keep up.
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: if i did not put my income through it, then it is a plain tax shelter and this lasts precisely five seconds if anyone so much as farts on it
trinque: gonna die anyway, why not act tactically til then?
mircea_popescu: alfie stop telling yourself stories and read the book of nature instead.
ascii_field: the 'businessized' version of everything
trinque: right, and they're taking deductions on goddamn everythig
ascii_field: i'm talking about the rest of it
trinque: depending on the state
assbot: Logged on 01-09-2015 17:56:08; mircea_popescu: the appearance of "costs" is what's known in poker as a trap. to keep the fucktards out. so dun be a fucktard, you can think, there's no rule that you may only think about coding or something. think all through, the same way, everywhere.
ascii_field: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-09-2015#1258630 << thing is, there ~is~ upfront cost, and from where exactly am i to come up with it ?
trinque: says Pennsylvania in the tags
mircea_popescu: because it really makes one sleep better at night, to see teh crime fightin' experts couldn't find someone older about 13 or so to write their writings.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-09-2015#1258442 << apparently "standard" means "common" in the nca parlance nao.
BingoBoingo: http://thesouthern.com/news/local/dozens-rally-in-harrisburg-to-support-confederate-flag/article_dce53cb2-dc9f-565f-9af6-20d1854e629e.html
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-09-2015#1258408 << how about first let the usg spend its resources on ultimately useless mining farm neh
assbot: Logged on 01-09-2015 17:38:44; jurov: ANN: coinbr had to be shut down and will likely stay for several days till i fix the mess.
assbot: An Open Letter to the Bitcoin Community from the Developers – Bitcoin Magazine ... ( http://bit.ly/1Vue54v )
mircea_popescu: they had a consensus.
mircea_popescu: but if the whorbassadors i ncongo agree the age should be 18, then hey, DEMOCRACY!!11
mircea_popescu: the fact that most of the world agrees girls can marry once they can walk, that doesn't count.
mircea_popescu: " Most pro age-limit organizations agree that 18 should be the legal age for marriage." << check it out, voting works NOW.
mircea_popescu: what the fuck is this even.
mircea_popescu: "oh, doctoring is a privileged activity, if some people die that's just not mentioned ; a functioning society is pointedly not a privileged activity, if anyone dies we'll put it in the newspaper".
mircea_popescu: convenient enough that there's nobody in english speaking places reading the yemenite newspapers about how "child dies at hands of doctor" or similar nonsense.
mircea_popescu: ""According to the United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA), between 2011 and 2020, more than 140 million girls will become child brides. Furthermore, of the 140 million girls who will marry before the age of 18, 50 million will be under the age of 15." << note how little the agenda has to do with the purely fabricated news story.
assbot: Logged on 01-09-2015 11:07:45; shinohai: Perhaps he could be described as a member of the species whose brain has not yet fully evolved.
assbot: Logged on 01-09-2015 09:51:37; cazalla: punkman, she is carrying the child in her ass?
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-09-2015#1258346 << if you conceive it in the butt, you carry it in the butt!