andychase: @bingoboingo: The BIP66 change was easy to "fix", just upgrade your clients and make sure a majority is upgrading before activating
BingoBoingo: If the BIP to enforce stricter signature encoding standards nearly failed, how is any other BIP to succeed now?
mats: 'stake in the Bitcoin ecosystem' seems written specifically not to mean anything useful
BingoBoingo: andychase: But the fix in BIP 66 was the least controversial thing in the world and it was a very difficult change because Bitcoin is an actual consensus system.
andychase: Well BIP66 fixed a consensus fork for miners running 32-Bit and 64-Bit computers, the shitshow happened because miners weren't validating blocks
BingoBoingo: Sure, but the least controversial one (BIP 66) still created a huge shitshow when it was triggered.
BingoBoingo: Honestly it is really too late for further BIPs to really be considered at all
andychase: Yeah, that's the one
andychase: Although to be honest I had a hard time understanding fully what you were talking about in regards to the flaws in the BIP process. Was it just that the Core Devs hadn't really talked to the miners or understood what was going on?
jurov: ag3nt_zer0: there's qntra, for example
ag3nt_zer0: on another topic, I wonder is there anything a programming illiterate, or super noob relative to the experience level in here, can do to make himself useful to the ongoing labors of this group?
trinque: this might be the first one I'm at all pleased with
trinque: but I'm solidly in the hobbyist category
trinque: nah, if I ever get this one to export maybe I'll throw on the www
trinque: ACK, MOTHERLAAAAND
ben_vulpes: and just as certainly leave you complaining that things never get done unless you do them yourself.
ag3nt_zer0: asciilifeform: I am pretty sure I ended up at http://cluborlov.blogspot.com due to you referencing the unspell project... do you have any more leads on smart blogs for geopolitics/economics etc?
asciilifeform: could almost certainly come up with a cleaner one if you just took the algo and wrote own
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: not really. just that you are wasting brain cycles on puzzling out the peculiarities of my proggy
ag3nt_zer0: and I suppose, for me, that there are minds I quite respect in this room, yours among them, and would hope to hear any thoughts...
ag3nt_zer0: also the truth is refreshing, no?
ag3nt_zer0: other than that, no
assbot: "The Contradiction of Relativism" - an essay by Frithjof Schuon ... ( http://bit.ly/1O6FDuy )
ag3nt_zer0: http://www.studiesincomparativereligion.com/Public/articles/The_Contradiction_of_Relativism-by_Frithjof_Schuon.aspx
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: ;;later tell ben_vulpes you would probably gain from rewriting 'v' from scratch, rather than using mine
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: ;;later tell pete_dushenski take me to the parallel lsd universe where i'm rich !
gribble: You are now authenticated for user asciilifeform with key B98228A001ABFFC7
gribble: Error: For identification purposes, you must be identified via GPG to use the order book.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: don't throw it out with the bathwater
ben_vulpes: in other news, i'm off to a baby shower
asciilifeform: and i don't give a flying fuck if the thing has parts made of baby bones and panda fur
asciilifeform: it is often possible if i can avoid paying the 'newness tax'
assbot: Logged on 03-09-2015 02:08:18; mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> the other interesting thing is that the market is segmented in such a way that anyone who doesn't want mcfood ends up paying for ~all~ the alt-crackpotteries, not merely the logical ones << this is a very valid point, and the one spot where alf's ideas re meta-lizzards sound most persuasive. i do not believe the market is gerrymandered as it is by accident.
ben_vulpes: ahaha look at all of these python tabs i can close now
ben_vulpes: but the dream of distributed marketplaces is alive in #otc.
asciilifeform: this is kinda a continuation of the ancient 'ebay' thread.
asciilifeform: has anyone here ever actually managed to buy, something other than coin or fiat, there /
asciilifeform: is the otc order book thing entirely stone dead ?
asciilifeform: punkman: i decided not to post it, because the result sucks
asciilifeform: (iirc the correct term for the thing remaining to be done is 'topological traversal')
punkman: asciilifeform: I only thought about it for 5 min but it seems like the solution to this would be a bit complex
asciilifeform: perhaps ben_vulpes et al will finish the job.
asciilifeform: punkman: i decided, rather than let the thing sit sadly for another month while i get this necessary thing to work, to release instead
asciilifeform: punkman: correct. the thing has no concept of orphaned chains as of yet.
ben_vulpes: that'd be trying to break the thing.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i was hoping it would be obvious to anyone who actually tried to use the thing.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: add it back into the todos :P
ben_vulpes: (because the code lacks locality)
asciilifeform: right now it has no notion of patches that cannot coexist with one another.
ben_vulpes: and no, i have not yet ginned up the tree-fuzzer.
asciilifeform: and their presence prevents anything else from working.
ben_vulpes: and this is why the global state drives me up a wall. because i cannot import one of these functions from the script and then run it without setting up a global environment for it. it's difficult to reason about the code lacks locality.
ben_vulpes: but looky here. you've written a thing that more-or-less must be tested as a whole, and i'm trying to push for testing the bits.
ben_vulpes: i know what it is, silly. just not the places where it's used. yet.
ben_vulpes: i don't think i understand their use well enough to complain in detail.
ben_vulpes: i've not touched the arg parsing itself.
asciilifeform: ergo all invocations of my 'v' took the patchdir arg as first arg.
asciilifeform: let's say it weren't. then ' ./v.py w ' prints wot ? but this is broken. because what if 'w' is my patch dir, and i simply forgot to include the second arg.
asciilifeform: but the patch dir arg is necessary !
ben_vulpes: in all honesty, it is a relic of testing from before i had the args objects mocked out.
asciilifeform: it is only 'spaghetti' if there are localisms in the global state. as it was, all of it was relevant to the whole proggy.
asciilifeform: what was the point of this mutilation.
asciilifeform: 'cause now if i wanna add a new command, there are THREE FUCKING PLACES to put it in instead of 2
ben_vulpes: i of course neglected the test incantations.
trinque: This preoccupation with what should've happened misses the process by which things *actually happen* by a wide berth.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
trinque: ;;later tell funkenstein_ If only Cortes hadn't destroyed the Mesoamerican time machine, you could travel back and set everything right.
ben_vulpes: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-September/000165.html << achtung, asciilifeform
assbot: Logged on 04-09-2015 23:54:25; asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: here's how i do it: 1) clearsigned (asciiarmoured) body. 2) attachment 3) signature (asciiarmoured, detached) of attachment, having the filename attach.foo.sig for every attach.foo
ben_vulpes: what are best practices with the mailing list again?
kakobrekla: i got a second mircorserver that will be another home node (amd, ecc, raid) that is on my bench waiting to be assembled for a couple of weeks now.
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: use the cross-compilator instructions from my pogotron recipe
kakobrekla: they just sliced prices down, assuming not popular
asciilifeform: i am still waiting to hear from anybody having set up another.
asciilifeform: this means that at present time there is EXACTLY ONE reliable public therealbitcoin node - zoolag.
asciilifeform: i will also take this chance to point out that the node on dulap has been rendered useless by all of this - trails by 30-100 blocks AT ALL TIMES
asciilifeform: the thing really needs to run on a colo box.
asciilifeform: thing is, flipping ONE FUCKING BIT in an already-baked product of moduli renders the whole shebang - and however long it took to produce - UNDETECTABLY worthless.
asciilifeform: (undetectable bit rot is MUCH WORSE than the idling it does right now)
assbot: Logged on 06-09-2015 12:25:05; ben_vulpes: ;;later tell vextor phuctor has had mains plugs pulled on it several times recenty, and alf's attitude (i believe) is that the thing shoudn't run if its going to have its memory ripped out every time it warms up. remember, it keeps the running product in memory. mircea_popescu's attitude is that "software should be less friable than the hardware upon which it runs". asciilifeform is trying to find the sh
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=06-09-2015#1263914 << i've been thinking about this ever since the last thread, and so far i have not come up with any way to make the thing RELIABLY survive the treatment it is getting
assbot: Logged on 01-09-2015 04:21:27; asciilifeform: it is mainly because my disk is littered with 1,001 copies of therealbitcoin tree
ben_vulpes: so that'd be the hash of a "pressing"?
gribble: The operation succeeded.
ben_vulpes: thestringpuller: dat beetus
gribble: The operation succeeded.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
ben_vulpes: ;;later tell bingoboingo you'd appreciate the local gravity distortion in the 24-hour cafe this morning
gribble: The operation succeeded.
ben_vulpes: mains-currenting his box, and so i think phuctor is in limbo for the moment.
ben_vulpes: ;;later tell vextor phuctor has had mains plugs pulled on it several times recenty, and alf's attitude (i believe) is that the thing shoudn't run if its going to have its memory ripped out every time it warms up. remember, it keeps the running product in memory. mircea_popescu's attitude is that "software should be less friable than the hardware upon which it runs". asciilifeform is trying to find the shitgnome responsble for
vextor: thanks to shinohai for the voice
vextor: I'll be watching the logs in case my services are needed
vextor: if there's anything I can do to help new submissions work again, please let me know
vextor: I assume that when the number of moduli to test reaches 0, then key submission will work again?
vextor: I did so, and also noted the Phuctor statistics. the number of keys to process was gradually going down
vextor: mircea_popescu noted that the bignum arithmetic often hobbled the machine, and to wait a few hours
punkman: every time I end up on instagram, I can't believe all the pictures are 640pixels and people use it
punkman: do you have to milk the goose daily?
mircea_popescu: the gentlemen investors as well as the armchair financiers may find the 2nd part of ^ interesting
deedbot-: [Trilema] Sneak Peak Screenshots and The Future Golden Goose - http://trilema.com/2015/sneak-peak-screenshots-and-the-future-golden-goose/
assbot: iPray: Prayer Times & Qibla Compass on the App Store on iTunes ... ( http://bit.ly/1VGkI3G )
punkman: guess that was wordplay, because the app is for muslims https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/ipray-prayer-times-qibla-compass/id288054534
gribble: The average time to generate a block at 113256481.48 Mhps, given difficulty of 56957648455.0, is 3 weeks, 4 days, 0 hours, and 8 seconds
gribble: The average time to generate a block at 56628240.74 Mhps, given difficulty of 56957648455.0, is 7 weeks, 1 day, 0 hours, and 17 seconds
gribble: The average time to generate a block at 11325.6481481 Mhps, given difficulty of 56957648455.0, is 684 years, 48 weeks, 4 days, 23 hours, 47 minutes, and 44 seconds
gribble: The average time to generate a block at 1000000000.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 56957648455.0, is 2 days, 19 hours, 57 minutes, and 14 seconds
gribble: The average time to generate a block at 1000.0 Mhps, given difficulty of 56957648455.0, is 7757 years, 16 weeks, 6 days, 6 hours, 23 minutes, and 24 seconds
funkenstein_: "never seen in all my days what so rejoiced my heart, as these things. For I saw among them amazing artistic objects, and I marveled over the subtle ingenuity of the men in these distant lands. Indeed, I cannot say enough about the things that were brought before me"
funkenstein_: Cortes: "Besides those things which I have already mentioned, they sell in the market everything else to be found in this land, but they are so many and so varied that because of their great number and because I cannot remember many of them nor do I know what they are called I shall not mention them"
funkenstein_: It may be possible for a person to know something about history of the America's without reading him, but surely the responsibility is on the person to so demonstrate.the
asciilifeform: funkenstein_ will also likely enjoy the mega-classic http://www.ditext.com/diamond/mistake.html
asciilifeform: funkenstein_: consider link to the documents mentioned earlier ?
funkenstein_: well i must thank you for reminding me of the extent of damage due to idiocy and mental illness which has occured in the past
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: the thing itself lives in one exe.
gabriel_laddel: erm let me unpack derive.zip and see wtf is in here then
asciilifeform: this totality - there is no substitute for it.
asciilifeform: but the interface of 'derive' certainly did.
asciilifeform: it is even conceivable that the guts would have fit in your head, had they been exposed
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: coming back to the earlier point, it is ~unfathomably valuable~ to ~know that you know all the knobs and what they do~
asciilifeform: then makes total sense!
mircea_popescu: the idea was you had to fill all disks.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: l0l, what was it doing there
asciilifeform: there also was 'xlisp' for msdos, which was ~nearly~ commonlisp.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform why didnt you get a symbolics box yo! then you could have fondly remembered maxima instead of derive!
asciilifeform: in '93? 1) symbolics 2) sun 3) vax 4) a few others
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the current distributive runs on standard common lisp.
asciilifeform: called then 'macsyma'
mircea_popescu: maxima existed then ?
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: is there anything in particular DERIVE has that maxima does not? I read a presentation on the matter, which had some nice specifics (inequality support) but am curious why you fondly remember the former rather than the latter.
mircea_popescu: they just had a retarded female-centric social system which fell over at the slightest provocation. like every other case in history.
asciilifeform: sure they did.
mircea_popescu: they didn't have sleep ad lib you know.
mircea_popescu: but yes, it was by far the largest affair in the new world. because the new world sucked.
mircea_popescu: fucking ur, at the time of its beheading, was ten times that.
mircea_popescu: eh russia wasn't even inhabited then.
funkenstein_: asciilifeform, remember the bar here is set for - is it worth your while to go slit a throat of somebody not bother you
funkenstein_: "They had cars" - we worship retarded usans now?
mircea_popescu: fuck him, retarded sicilian rediscovering the intellectual products of sheep herding in 1940
mircea_popescu: i do not need nor care to mention some schmucks 5000 years late to the party.
mircea_popescu: if i want to worship some iron age primitives, i got the greeks
mircea_popescu: "they had cars at the time this fuckwit was living in the dirt. do you understand ? some african monkey thinking they unveiled the sikrits of the universe AT THE SAME TIME as people doing the cern cyclotron is necessarily and by that very fact an idiot.
funkenstein_: that ideal model existing in our mind of objects describing the world around us
funkenstein_: asciilifeform, when I read your excellent blog I am often reminded of the aztec word "tonal"
asciilifeform: funkenstein_: can you describe one of the 'wise men' and his wisdom in terms that any of us might apprehend ?
mircea_popescu: last fucking thing i want to see are some elders harping on about how great the iron age man was. srsly.
mircea_popescu: dude if your idea of wise elders is some twerps who worship the failures...
asciilifeform: incidentally, i notice that aficionados of crying for the indians for some odd reason cry preferentially for the ones clobbered earlier and more thoroughly, leaving not so much as a wet spot (e.g., arawak) vs the later ones who learned horse and rifle and gave white man a run for his money
funkenstein_: all of us will die, therefore we suck
mircea_popescu: no dude. start with the monkeys. d'oh.
funkenstein_: kill because can? start with own family, then all plants and animals, finally self.
asciilifeform: funkenstein_: the 'magical wisdom of harmony with mother earth' thing won't fly. but my personal favourite crackpottery re: the indians, and one which has at least a pinch of actual historical support, is that they had to be bugsprayed to keep agricultural white man from defecting.
funkenstein_: then starve you will
funkenstein_: explicit doctrines of idiocy from there for hundreds of years - must kill kill because - dumb dumb we are
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform call it californy like they did :D
asciilifeform: in reality, say the place today called california could have supported 50,000 healthy stone age folk, or 100,000 barely-alive ripe-for-smallpox.
mircea_popescu: in point of fact as the white man put pressure on the indians, they started crossing boundries in desperate search of food. this was very successful at preventing organised resistance - idiots too busy fighting each other.
asciilifeform: so the lsd aficionados get illusion of 'in harmony with enviro'
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: elementarily, there was nothing magic about the 'red man' which kept him from breeding, like everybody else, to just short of over the carrying capacity of his lands
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2015 01:09:34; asciilifeform: 'Every nationalist is haunted by the belief that the past can be altered. He spends part of his time in a fantasy world in which things happen as they should in which, for example, the Spanish Armada was a success or the Russian Revolution was crushed in 1918 and he will transfer fragments of this world to the history books whenever possible. Much of the propagandist writing of our time amounts to
funkenstein_: the invading barbarians died of starvation
funkenstein_: ditto the potatoe
mircea_popescu: the indians died of starvation, mostly.
asciilifeform: funkenstein_: the white man knew 'the keys' - 'have 99.99% of you die and you too can be subsistence hunters'
funkenstein_: at any rate, agriculture is a great example of "whoops - shoulda asked the locals where the keys to safe are before we needlessly removed their tongues"
mircea_popescu: but that's besides the point. being a skilled politician is never enjoyable.
mircea_popescu: yes, of the subset of skills that are enjoyable, one enjoys more the ones that are useful and he's any good at
funkenstein_: lol good point there
mircea_popescu: some skills are enjoyable. others are not.
mircea_popescu: im sure they'll enjoy it on account of "knowing how to do it"
asciilifeform: funkenstein_: to anyone. the resulting population density is hell.
funkenstein_: well not to the folks who knew how to do it
funkenstein_: you mean instead of learning from them how to farm
mircea_popescu: why do you think the immigrants slaughtered the indians instead of persay teaching them to farm ?
mircea_popescu: allowing the common man some semblance of freedom and import for a short interval.
funkenstein_: are we against the physical existence of monkeys?
mircea_popescu: nobody is against the study of political, philosophycal, astronautical or any other knowledge defeated tribe had.
mircea_popescu: so then why do you conflate the two. the people i was talking about when i said iron age were the various twerps the usians killed.
mircea_popescu: and then funkenstein_ wants to tell me about the intrinsic worth of all bipedal mouthbreathers.
mircea_popescu: basically, argentinian : tribute band that is not a band and no tribute, in a bar that sells no drinks to some kids that are there because they got out of the rain.
mircea_popescu: the band was ohio high bad.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: l0l, i distinctly recall seeing an ad for precisely this during one of our walks in the city
mircea_popescu: in other news, went on a lark to this "power dc" ac/dc tribute band in some "rock bar" here.
thestringpuller: when you say "my 'island'" are you talking of hypothetical super scientist island with no budget? or current laboratory?
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: my 'island' is an unheated, uncooled, wooden hut.
asciilifeform: funkenstein_: not chip fab, either
funkenstein_: thestringpuller, a show of new school crew George tours with these days : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tk9j00wyVQ
asciilifeform saw deal for purchase of certain lab instrument fall through for the third time in that many years.
funkenstein_: like bitcoin, you can't fake the funk
gribble: The operation succeeded.
funkenstein_: And for the record, your participation in an open dialog here, more in the tradition of the indian men of knowledge than the authoritarian oxbridge academics, does not make me think of you as monkeys
funkenstein_: there was no indian problem. There was a somebody gave retards weapons and they appear to be killing everything in sight problem.
assbot: Logged on 06-09-2015 00:27:19; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-09-2015#1263340 << the proposition that the library of alexandria has anything to do with a bunch of bronze-age derps is ridoinculous. that event was a clear cut case of the elites of one culture wiping the elites of another culture it had defeated. this happens to be right and proper. the solving of the indian problem is nothing of the kind, but simply the elit
funkenstein_: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=06-09-2015#1263457 <-- wai wut? since when did we start calling puritan rejects who couldn't get laid "the elite"
assbot: Logged on 06-09-2015 00:59:32; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform http://trilema.com/2015/on-how-the-factored-4096-rsa-keys-story-was-handled-and-what-it-means-to-you/#selection-455.0-455.29 ftr.
VariaVarietatis: If not out of the wot could someone recommend a good webhost?
mircea_popescu: the whole thing it's such an elaborate cake of fail...
mircea_popescu: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3jnadz/093_lost_btc_in_transaction_fee_bitfury/ << probably the best lulz reddit has to offer.
pete_dushenski: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3222893/Indestructible-Water-bear-bug-survive-space-revolutionise-computing.html << mkay. these 'scientists' also need to starve.
thestringpuller: and that's the last time I click on a link from mircea_popescu
mircea_popescu: and in other news, http://40.media.tumblr.com/357c14b90c5d73edafc9b4ea3e736345/tumblr_nohe1p4cbF1utuotio1_1280.jpg
assbot: On how the factored 4096 RSA keys story was handled, and what it means to you. on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1VFXivr )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform http://trilema.com/2015/on-how-the-factored-4096-rsa-keys-story-was-handled-and-what-it-means-to-you/#selection-455.0-455.29 ftr.
mircea_popescu: if he hangs himself by the ears with a rope made out of state, that's his problem. but saving the thing is not that yet.
mircea_popescu: you're making the jump and presuming nonsensical usage, which may be a fair assumption in general, but not necessary here.
ascii_modem: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=06-09-2015#1263484 << the beauty of 'v' is that folks can use cobol on win98 if they like...
mircea_popescu: buncha twerps, always on the same script.
mircea_popescu: the bitcoin foundation has no fucking future. i say this from the same fucking throne i said mtgox has no fucking future ; and bfl has no fucking future ; and so on and so forth. it does not.
Bingo_VACAY: I would personally like to tie the rope for bruce
mircea_popescu: myeah. the problem being that most people have more sense than to lend their reputation to propping up the space's chief scam club.
mircea_popescu: "bruce_fenton 4 points 10 hours ago We've tried hard to invite others in, just like I just invited you."
assbot: Logged on 05-09-2015 19:57:49; btcdrak: <3 that was a pretty good score considering all the armchair lawyers who came out of the woodwork telling me I was wrong...
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-09-2015#1263417 << the internet's premiere export product!
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-09-2015#1263392 << no. amusingly enough, everything else is, specifically email. but the ml itself seems fine.
mircea_popescu: how's the vaca y, Bingo_VACAY ?
assbot: Logged on 05-09-2015 18:08:43; lksakeye: Yo this is isaackl. For the record, I returned dear leader his 1 btc, one month before he accused me of theft. (https://blockchain.info/address/1Bum3oXxbCLUg54snyL6rmBz7vRBuPUr6G, http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-06-2015#1172722)
mircea_popescu: ing out a subhuman population. not quite monkey enough to be cute in a zoo, not quite human enough to be part of the world. uncanny valley all the way.
assbot: Logged on 05-09-2015 15:36:29; funkenstein_: I'm also not going to celebrate the destruction of the library of Alexandria because "people".
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-09-2015#1263340 << the proposition that the library of alexandria has anything to do with a bunch of bronze-age derps is ridoinculous. that event was a clear cut case of the elites of one culture wiping the elites of another culture it had defeated. this happens to be right and proper. the solving of the indian problem is nothing of the kind, but simply the elites of a culture wip