mircea_popescu: this is entirely beyond the fucking point.
jurov: meh. i'll believe you both when you in the names of simplicity, shot "ignore whitespaces" too.
mircea_popescu: explain this to me. what the fuck is a "sane notion of text" ?
assbot: Logged on 31-10-2015 16:37:36; *: asciilifeform is l0lzing over how we are replacing the asciilifeform vs mircea_popescu debate on udp, with jurov playing the part of asciilifeform and asciilifeform playing the part of mircea_popescu
mircea_popescu: text means a very specific thing. latin alphabet. nothing else. if you'd rather work with 文本, work with 文本.
mod6: asciilifeform thx for posting the MPI stuff.
asciilifeform: the kind entirely unusable anywhere sane at all.
asciilifeform: actually it mostly ~is~ a closet. 99.999% of the cn code publicly known on the net (in any attributable way) is wincrud.
assbot: Logged on 31-10-2015 15:09:58; asciilifeform: where do i meet all of these mythical people who own a computer, use gpg, but do not know enough english to operate it without this garbage ?
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-10-2015#1312583 << the point is not that they exist. the point is that nsa decided cca 1990 that IN THE FUTURE tm/r it WANTS them to exist.
mircea_popescu: i suppose the people who inform me also didn't think much of it.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there is a huge wall of fire between easily and probably.
mircea_popescu: b) they still hate assange.
mircea_popescu: a) they know the secret is out, so this candle is burning - gotta use it NOW for maximum impact
mircea_popescu: and that what they attempt to do with the recently stolen item is to try and muddy up wikileaks is, at least to my eyes informative.
mircea_popescu: as it is - cryptome is the whistlebreaking device.
assbot: Logged on 31-10-2015 14:21:34; asciilifeform: 'Wikileaks is not offering a search of Cryptome - the files are hosted on their server as a honeypot for snatching user data for who knows what. There are subtle sneaky differences that give it away...'
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-10-2015#1312574 << if the "there are subtle" were actually a specific list, i would be much more convinced.
asciilifeform: kudos to mircea_popescu for supplying a blessed version of the package.
mircea_popescu: actually as frustrating as it is, iirc there was always a good reason
asciilifeform: it ate my shit, for the 1,001th time.
asciilifeform: therealbitcoin, as we have it, makes minimal use of gnarly unixisms. but its dependencies (incl. gcc and the toolchain) are another matter.
jurov: would bitcoin run on the lions book system?
asciilifeform: every time you stick in the knife, somebody says 'NOOOOOO! this is NECESSARY complexity...!'
asciilifeform: as in, cutting all the shitgnomatic crud until we have something like the lions book again ?
asciilifeform: why do you think no one has to date succeeded in 'bonfire of the unix' ?
jurov: can you point me to a line number? i fail to see it there
asciilifeform: punkman: it could work if no one were to ever use anything else. but the distinction between 'this is a binary blob and is to be cut into octets' vs 'this is a text blob and is to be cut into words' would remain
jurov: asciilifeform: i see thirs of the code dealing with various "ignore whitespace" kludges
asciilifeform is l0lzing over how we are replacing the asciilifeform vs mircea_popescu debate on udp, with jurov playing the part of asciilifeform and asciilifeform playing the part of mircea_popescu
asciilifeform: all of them traceable to variadic chars
asciilifeform: and yes, jurov found the diff thread
asciilifeform: http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/diffutils.git/tree/src/util.c << a good chunk of the complexity IS THERE BECAUSE characters are EVER variadic
jurov: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=20-08-2015#1245519 there is i18n which behaves as described here
phf: jurov: so did i, and i appreciate utf-8 in my music selection or random durp i download from the internet. i wouldn't care if there's some frequent surrogate issue with track file names, but i do care that i can't have a professional tool where that sort of questions have predictable, if not necessarily easy and fun answers
punkman: there is no unicode machinery in diff
jurov: also as sysadmin had to configure samba to deal with them..nopenopenope. utf8 was definite improvement.
phf: i personally prefer the lc_ctype=koi8-r solution, but that's because i'm a retrograde :p
jurov: otherwise you have to keep stuff 8-bit clean throughout, is that better?
phf: some hypothetical b-a os and internal consistency of the whole model. if you say "we support utf-8" here, you're also saying "we support unicode x.y" everywhere
phf: but i'm not talking about diff specifically, i'm saying that whatever decissions are being made about diff now are going to influence the kind of work we'll have to do in the future
jurov: that's the braindamaged part, which should be dealt separately
jurov: punkman: yes because there's whole unicode machinery implemented which ppl rightfully abhor
phf: i think the argument against that is that ascii is trying to build a b-a system starting with small tools out. if you're claiming to support unicode in your diff, that necessarily means that "done by other tool" is automatically included in the scope of future b-a work
phf: a typical solution is then, like you said, ignore 90% of unicode standard, which means that, instead of having a clean model to work with, you have a c++ solution of "we support this particular subset of c++, because the other parts we think are braindead"
jurov: phf i proposed just ignore them
phf: jurov: variadic anywhere in your string handling machinery means that you no longer have a meaningful concept of string, i.e. nth printable character is an nth object in array, instead everything that you manipulate is a stream with a state machine attached. be that utf-8 at the encoding level, or ucs-4 at the storage level which brings in surrogates and supplementary characters
jurov: that shitgnomes use variadic encoding as a means to append bloat is not failure of said encoding. they'd find another outlet easily
asciilifeform: but aside from this, it makes for 10-20x the lines of code for me to read.
asciilifeform: they break streams! srsly
jurov: you'er basically insisting that anyone who wants to do 8bit stuff in unix should sit themselves on a stake instead, or resort to ms-dos style wankery
asciilifeform: ever wonder what is all of this RUBBISH that is in a typical unix that ISN'T found in the lions book ?
assbot: Logged on 22-10-2014 02:38:31; asciilifeform: othernubs`: see ubiquitous 'lions book' that we're imitating: http://v6.cuzuco.com/v6.pdf
asciilifeform: jurov: do you own a copy of the lions book ?
asciilifeform: while a unix with weird shit hanging off the side is not a woman, but a bloke with cock lopped off
asciilifeform: the merits of which are debatable, but a pure unix is a legitimate animal
asciilifeform: it is a severe impedance mismatch with the unix philosophy.
jurov: "the variadic encoding is intrinsically gnarly" etc.
jurov: they can be ignored.. and you supposedly ignore this argument :(
asciilifeform: jurov: go and find the src for gnu diff (it is in the logs) and see how much of the bulk and library load garbage is on account of non-latin.
jurov: and in any other cases where you don't have to choose exact glyph printed, you can ignore 99% of unicode spec
asciilifeform: the hard part is printing.
asciilifeform: jurov: the hard part is not diffing (diff readily diffs binaries)
asciilifeform: and i have another.
phf: jurov: i'm actually just trying to bridge your position and ascii's since i'm pretty indifferent personally to outcome of the decision. i used to latex by typing funny us-ascii combinations to produce cyrillic metafont renderings, and i also am intimately familiar with what's involved in support "other encoding, nat'l sorting, normalized/unnormalized chars", and it's a pita.
jurov: well, you're bound to see your software broken by people who don't agree with you then
asciilifeform: i favour the old msdos solution instead
asciilifeform: as a native of what latinate folks regard as likewise a 'hieroglyphs' language, i STILL favour the abolition of 'hieroglyphs display on EVERY box'
jurov: sigh. code to convert utf8 stream to wide char and back is 50 lines. with diff, one can safely ignore everything else, other encoding, nat'l sorting, normalized/unnormalized chars, etc.
phf: utf-8 is a solution if you're ok iwth variadic encoding (though i've read many convincing arguments that utf-8 is new jersey brain dead), but the main issue is that full support of unicode is impossible withtout massive amounts of machinery. and you're going to butt head against the internal storage format and all the varieities of ucs-*, and ~then~ you're going to run into issues of normalization and multiple mappings and such
asciilifeform: and the variadic encoding is intrinsically gnarly
asciilifeform: phf: even utf8 is a non-solution because there remain multiple glyph mappings
phf: jurov: problem is that there's no such thing as "any text file". a text file necessarily has an encoding, and your options are either standardize on an encoding (the way plan9 did it, with going all utf-8) or else carry massive machinery for supporting a range of encodings from utf-8 to shiftjis
asciilifeform: it goes to the heart of how unix works
asciilifeform: they look like garbage.
jurov: you know text was retarded from the very beginning
asciilifeform: but it appears that all of the magic in the world did not suffice to retrofit a non-retarded notion of text onto unix
asciilifeform: see, if symbolics corp. had won the war and the notion of 'character' was not braindamagedly bound to 'octet' - we would not be having this conversation.
asciilifeform: layering workarounds into the canon is precisely how we ended up with ball of shit.
asciilifeform: it is what civilized people use when they program a computer.
phf: plan9's diff handles utf-8, the implicit decision here is that we're sticking to us-ascii
asciilifeform: jurov: there are specially-made tools for this (see the screenshots on mircea_popescu's www in the phuctor 3-parter article re: what i used)
asciilifeform: no such thing in there
punkman: asciilifeform: is that because of the LC_ALL=C in vdiff?
asciilifeform: where do i meet all of these mythical people who own a computer, use gpg, but do not know enough english to operate it without this garbage ?
asciilifeform: (all over the place)
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: ;;later tell mircea_popescu didja know that it is impossible to produce a v-genesis for gnupg-1.4.10 ? it contains unprintable turds, yes ! e.g., the idiot 'localizators', po/*.gmo
asciilifeform: 'Wikileaks is not offering a search of Cryptome - the files are hosted on their server as a honeypot for snatching user data for who knows what. There are subtle sneaky differences that give it away...'
jurov: mircea_popescu: in your quest for other non-derpy irc chans, have you tried #lisp?
mircea_popescu: england wasn't part of the party, not at that time.
mircea_popescu: how do you do that from oxford, you swim the channel or something ?
mircea_popescu: whereas the vagabond could carry all his possessions in his head!
mircea_popescu: this was immense - at the time a peasant who wanted to move, provided he somehow managed, had to fucking drag his entire possessions, on a rug. no wheels even, because too fucking techy for a peasant.
mircea_popescu: the whole fantasy is very cs-scientist level of naive. read villon's testament - it should make it very plain what the point of university life was cca 1500 : THAT YOU COULD WALK IT.
punkman: i see. pretty dense history lesson there
mircea_popescu: as a ready shorthand, remember that in 1400 the entire material production of the entire archipelago was worth about the same as that of one neighbourhood in milan.
mircea_popescu: three centuries later the dutch conquered england, moved their fleet there and so yes oxford eventually flourished. but the claim that it was "there in the 13th century" is spurious.
mircea_popescu: at the time, the english were exactly like the 1600s scots (see their darien gap adventure). so they copied the bitcoin out of some idle kids and some peasants, which ended kloinking each other in the head.
mircea_popescu: at the time the paris university was starting the entire university thing, the king of france wouldn't have traded a middling french province for all of england ; which also he didn't.
mircea_popescu: derpy brits keep trying to retcon their insignificant island into things.
mircea_popescu: it meant paris. what the fuck is this "oxford"
mircea_popescu: " If you wanted to learn, you headed towards where the books were and the people who could read them and that meant the great universities like Paris and Oxford."
asciilifeform: punkman: the folks who 'gotta hire endless stream' of are called 'instructors' here.
asciilifeform: e.g., poland, where a good 7-10% of the place were, nominally, 'szlachta'
asciilifeform: quite like nobility in the old days
asciilifeform: punkman: where i live, tenure is still a thing. in that the courts have held it to be a perverse kind of nontransferable property interest
punkman: asciilifeform: a tenured prof is prolly the closest thing that presently exists in the western world to ~titled nobility~ << I don't buy it. Back when tenure was a thing, they wanted to keep professors around until parts started falling off. Now there's an endless stream of "professors", and gotta hire them so they can say "our PHDs get jobs"
punkman: usually same demographic as the kids throwing rocks and molotovs at cops, not actual hungry people
punkman: indeed. on a sidenote, all the recent instances of looting around here were mobs taking food from supermarkets, not widescreen TVs.
mircea_popescu: "The media's preferred symbol for the disintegration of public order is looting, i.e the opposite of shopping."
v_diddy: there were more players.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: ;;later tell mircea_popescu https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9SeOrGni9s << i have no idea if you have the ru to appreciate this, but it is rather like a distilled version of 11 or so of your articles
asciilifeform: nobody gives a rat's arse what they purportedly make.
v_diddy: "oh your wordpress is very very insecure. it has shared php hosting. you need to spend $maxint to migrate to custom blablabla with frufrufru to protect your reputation and reduce the risk of br34ches!1"
asciilifeform: the document appears to describe standard gcm/aes. snore.
v_diddy: have worked with them numerously!
asciilifeform: they sell 'verified' crypto to usg
asciilifeform: a matched set of rf boxes that 9600 bauds in either direction, and you can do what you like with the outs, is commercial sop and costs maybe ten bux.
v_diddy: if you want the systems to behave sanely, you have to rewrite everything down to the wire protocols
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: why would toy maker bother.
v_diddy: mircea_popescu: uav/rc suffers from the pile of chairs problem
v_diddy goes shuffling through drawers for the uav wargames notes
v_diddy: *another* killer application of gossipd.
v_diddy: anyways, the "drone" comms are /entirely/ unencrypted.
v_diddy: yes, i was typing something along the lines of "anyways, using gps for mission critical anything is braindamaged. you're better off with dead reckoning and navigation by star."
v_diddy: asciilifeform: ah, but the tightly-coupled gps-imu
v_diddy: dude mircea_popescu would you handle agorecki and therealjohngalt while you're at it?
trinque: seems like it creates an immediate market for hack tools like what they use to take down drones
mircea_popescu: the bubble is a honest signal.
assbot: Anonimity, or the urban versus rural dispute. on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1M217oo )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the reason the bound is respected is http://trilema.com/2012/anonimity-or-the-urban-versus-rural-dispute/#selection-135.131-139.54
asciilifeform: what i originally wanted to note was the 'powerful' does not necessarily mean 'respects no bounds', could - if this is a stable convention for some reason - respect the gold bubbles
assbot: Ship Photo of the Day - A Glimpse Into the Unmanned Containership of the Future? - gCaptain ... ( http://bit.ly/1M211gD )
asciilifeform: literally 'state of no bounds', in the least desirable possible sense
v_diddy: in *other* news, gcaptain is an *awesome* blog
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform wasn't a problem at the time, somehow.
asciilifeform: if it's golden, the fella will just steal it. gotta be trotyl bubble..
mircea_popescu: what's she gonna do, suck them ALL off ?
mircea_popescu: yes. the original one : you have to put a golden bubble around your kid's neck so powerful man behaving badly knows to rape some other kid in the gaggle of kids your kid's playing with.
asciilifeform recalls the tale of dog-sized garbage disposals in a certain lab
mircea_popescu: anyway, the problem is this : out of a billion people, his father in 1960 was part of a group of a million, and the other 999 million were more than happy to be coolies. today, the author is part of the group of the useless.
asciilifeform: 'In a little less than four decades, college tuition has risen 1400%. Housing costs have gone up 3100%. Gasoline has increased 1800%. Wages, on the other hand, have gone up 322%. The average increase in the three areas I have mentioned comes to 20 times. If income had kept pace with expenses, and if I were earning an amount equivalent to what my father earned in the 1960s, I would be making over one million dollars a year.'
mircea_popescu: in other news, wrestling has progressed much since the old days of andy kaufman. they now tagteam women : http://31.media.tumblr.com/60dc8df09d8a7bbec349bb5ce34776da/tumblr_mlmvv0x3j91qadwmuo2_400.gif
trinque: originally, perhaps the "nuh uh" is collectivised now
v_diddy: so where does the magic 5K number come from?
trinque: so this petition gets "upboated" or w/e they called it here, and Obama is supposed to tell him "nuh uh"
v_diddy: and to set your own bar and then fail to jump it?
v_diddy: https://www.change.org/p/tell-scott-adams-that-raping-a-woman-is-not-a-natural-instinct?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=share_petition << who sets the targets for these petitions?
v_diddy: anyways, at a high level, one aspect of the wager i'm making here is that if a moron like me can with dilligence and self-discipline figure out how to turn a dollar into a buck twenty, if i bring the discipline and insist on the dilligence, i oughta be able to crap out at least one kid that can support me through $enddayz when my meatwot is all dead and dried up
trinque: I'm just mocking the poverty of $oldboss
v_diddy: and also that any given individual including v_diddy thinks they're not an entirely average schmuck
trinque: v_diddy: wait this wasn't a place I worked with the lotto tickets was it?
v_diddy: and also reversion to the mean
asciilifeform: but you can rely on the 0.
v_diddy: mk then.
asciilifeform: v_diddy: i also remember the one other time i had a lotto ticket; when the lab where i worked in 2011 was defunded, the boss passed the hat and, as a last l0l, bought lotto tickets
v_diddy: so there
v_diddy: asciilifeform: perhaps remembers the lotto tickets at con3?
asciilifeform wishes v_diddy only the highest quality, not-at-all-regressed-to-mean offspring
trinque chuckles as the +ev scheme is laid bare!
v_diddy: they'll know latin, dance ballroom, play myriad instruments, perform ito.
v_diddy: farmer who has 10 children 6 of which survive, 3 of which are useful on the farm doesn't calculate either.
mircea_popescu: why the fuck is /mode #bitcoin-assets +b *!*@c-50-140-140-37.hsd1.il.comcast.net do nothing ?
trinque: you'd have to come at the thing by determining the value of your time, then the amount of time and resources devoted to the kid, what the kid ends up producing of value, does this offset the development period...
asciilifeform: aha, if you keep it around for no good reason other than that you like, e.g., its fur, its purr - it is a pet.
asciilifeform: v_diddy: livestock (if you've any business with them) are +ev
v_diddy: how do you draw the line between pets and livestock, asciilifeform?
mircea_popescu: the record shall duly show.
asciilifeform: v_diddy: it is a perfectly fine thing to have pets, there is no need to pretend that they're +ev
v_diddy: tending the aquaponics, banging together a new dome, romping unattended in the neighbors fields not incurring costs...
asciilifeform: the last time i went.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the thing that i was bitching about earlier is that nobody cared to find out how attentive ~i~ would be to the frier either
mircea_popescu: "You will observe the Keisha does not even have the enthusiasm to know what is written on the most important economic documents of her life. "I don't know, bipolar, panic attacks, whatever they put on there." She can't be bothered to handle those papers, someone else is in charge of that. How attentive will she be to the frier? McDonalds doesn't want to find out."
mircea_popescu: or in other words,
v_diddy: no, don't send kids to school. make them put up molding in the remodel. they learn something, the thing increases in value.
mircea_popescu: v_diddy how do you plan to extract value from the offspring ?
asciilifeform: v_diddy: they're -ev.
mircea_popescu: that's the measure of skilled in a life run as a business
mircea_popescu: then stop bitching and make those warrants / shares worth something.
asciilifeform: i suppose there is 'as a charity' ('keisha' et al)
mircea_popescu: there's a huge market for all sorts of skilled and a large pile of people who want skilled to mean what they want it to mean.
v_diddy: asciilifeform: doesn't this thread devolve into "there's precious little market for anything not supported by usg"?
asciilifeform: (because what does zimbabwe need engineer for ? as far as the people's republic is concerned, he's just another shit-scooper ~but with pretensions~)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: on the other end, there is also precious little market for... skilled anything.
mircea_popescu: http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2011/09/how_to_be_mean_to_your_kids.html << tlp, at the top of his game
mircea_popescu: Ferrari and now it's only a Honda, but either way, not much time for absences and no time at all for Keisha's learning curve. Keisha isn't just unemployed, she is completely unemployable. We can argue whether auto plants should pay $20/hr or $50/hr, but for certain there is no market for unskilled labor at all."
mircea_popescu: "That specific issue reveals an important bias and misunderstanding America has when it talks about employment. Yes, there is an issue about people wanting to work but the other issue is that the global economy is too quick and efficient to tolerate your idiotic car troubles or your imbecilic grandmother's death or your moronic lack of child care (cue Scandinavia) or, and mostly, your stupid health. The economy was a
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: One of those fellows on the linked page actually to my knowledge draws not one, but TWO professorial salaries from the same university.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> kim could have been done in 36 minutes. << Not anymore. Not with the new FUPA since she let herself go.
BingoBoingo: Dayum v_diddy so how many babbies were there?
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: These creatures exist even at regional colleges, check "humanities department." Seems they adopted the uniform from Hollywood.
mircea_popescu: also these guys don't teach anything whatsoever. they mostly try to be carrie from sex and the city, except without the sex.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: they come here on tour once in a spell. they don't wear this 'uniform' either.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: we're not discussing here random derp making 63k a year from community college, we're discussing here krugman or w/e his name is, the nyt resident finance derp
v_diddy: i don't think pete's actually interested in /building/ the skoolarium
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: afaik these creatures exist only in hollywood films
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: no need to go far, see the case of, e.g., terry davis
v_diddy: anyone game to compare http://www.predictwise.com/politics/2016RepNomination (via ritzy) to the odds on bitbet?
asciilifeform: typically, anything short of a proper felony conviction results in demotion at the most.
asciilifeform: v_diddy: 'canned' means something quite else for a tenured prof than for the rank and file.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> (typical u.s. state uni employs largely 'lecturers', who occupy approx. same place in the org chart as an air conditioner mechanic) << air conditioner mechanic comparatively makes bank compared to uni lecturer, and often professor
asciilifeform: a tenured prof is prolly the closest thing that presently exists in the western world to ~titled nobility~
shinohai: "They are in fact, the last bastions of mediaevalism left in modern society outside, perhaps, the church." <<< I like it already, because though I do not believe in God, I am somehow drawn to the church for just that reason.
asciilifeform: (typical u.s. state uni employs largely 'lecturers', who occupy approx. same place in the org chart as an air conditioner mechanic)
asciilifeform: most of'em don't even have the 'job security' popularly associated with this line of work
asciilifeform: but no, you won't find ~these~ profs at anything describable as 'pretentious party.' in fact, you won't find them at the high-end grocery shop, either.
asciilifeform could not help but take off his hat to, e.g., the fella who put off +ev employment until he was 40 and subsisted on chickenshit wage just so that he could teach asciilifeform and other scum algorithms, number theory, etc
shinohai: Possibly they stopped learning.
asciilifeform: went to school, professoring is just a (poorly-paying) job, and the folks who did it showed no symptoms of conceiving of it as anything else
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'I have a few friends (lawyers, hedge fund managers, high powered money types generally) who make sport of hunting and humiliating UStardian college professors socially. It is a sport I would like to see extended to the middle class. Next time you're at a pretentious party and you spot some douche in the uniform of "college professor", go see if you can make him admit he's not read a whole book....' << where i
BingoBoingo: P. Diddy also did: "On June 22, 2015, Combs was arrested for assault with a deadly weapon by the University of California, Los Angeles Police Department. He was accused of assaulting one of his son's football coaches after witnessing the coach yell at his son. His son, Justin Combs, plays football for the UCLA Bruins." << Because not even entertainment stars can spare their children the gladitorial arena
assbot: Logged on 31-10-2015 02:43:51; asciilifeform: mr mold had a hilarious piece on the subject, involving a game of chess played by vote
asciilifeform: mr mold had a hilarious piece on the subject, involving a game of chess played by vote