mircea_popescu: so at the least a hook for human debugging to save us from cold equationism IS provided.
ascii_butugychag: aha, the format allows for it
mircea_popescu: this way the human gardener can review and arbitrate the matter and i (at least hopefully) won't get negrated for it breaking shit.
mircea_popescu: now, one obvious solution (wasn't obvious to me at the time what it was a solution to) is to INCLUDE COMMENTS in the patches, like i did with my only signed patch i didn't really intended as part of a final pressing
ascii_butugychag: thestringpuller: sacrifice a goat to satan
mod6: i wonder if we couldnt find 'the right ones' with some sort of merkle tree that represents the best chain.
mircea_popescu: like comatose patients waking up the same time.
mircea_popescu: so have i. which is what makes the conicidence interesting.
thestringpuller: ascii_butugychag: well magicprefs is throwin an error (has a triangle with exclamation mark in the top bar)
mircea_popescu: dude... why the same day ?
assbot: Logged on 29-01-2016 13:27:00; asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-01-2016#1388268 << absolutely not, the very notion is a violation of vtronics. NOW on the OTHER HAND - human-powered 'gardening' of the vtree is a perfectly fine thing. notice how mod6 is doing a splendid job of it. BUT conceivably it is also possible for archaeologists to take all of the orphaned crud i ever pasted and come up with a correct vtree
mircea_popescu: don't tell me tis in the log i didn't get to ?
mircea_popescu: (for one thing : if IT could find the right ones, add that to gossipd and we have essentially built passive autonomous system software, ie, the evil ai.)
mircea_popescu: now. could IT find the right ones ?
mircea_popescu: but it is your job to find the right ones.
mircea_popescu: or to put it in different terms : currently the V is equivalent to a version of bitcoin where YOU are responsible for downloading blocks. it WILL verify them and form a chain,
punkman: what if two patches change two files respectively, with the same contents
mircea_popescu: approach thematter from the other, practical side, maybe it's easier that way. so i made a patch that did X, then i made a patch that did X'. i consider X' to be > X.
mircea_popescu: (and we'll likely end up stuck in THIS sort of mud pits a lot more than i nthe "obvious" ones everyone thinks about)
mircea_popescu: the reason i question all this is because suddenly a possibility formed in my head, whereby v could have an equivalent of "longest chain". bitcoin does not follow THAT heuristic idly. but it must be said that a) it's a poorly defined heuristic and b) there are reasons.
ascii_butugychag: so if i submit frobs-x.vpatch and also-frobs-x.vpatch and they both reference patch frobbed-x-before.vpatch, then i can press to frob-x OR to also-frobs-x or to any other leaf.
ascii_butugychag: the set of all possible pressings you can end up with
punkman: you can't apply two patches that modify the same thing, at least in newer v.pl that checks hashes
mod6: punkman: good question, not sure at all. can try to take a peek once we get past the 1st. i've got stuff stacked to the celing right now
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: it will apply the one that you press to
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag mod6 if you wish to consider a general problem : what is the ~correct~ thing to do for vtron when it encounters two validly signed patches doing the same thing ?
assbot: Logged on 29-01-2016 10:29:19; jurov: I know that i should manage the repository myself, but imo a version field would be good to have so that I can easily spot if someone posts revised version of the same patch.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-01-2016#1388269 << this is an issue more or less in suspensiopn atm, at the fundamental level.
ascii_butugychag: (there was ~never~ referencing in my tinyscheme thing! it began with a vtronically nailed-down copy of known vintage from my own hdd, and proceeds from there.)
mircea_popescu: i'd rather stop people in the street and ask them to make my women babies than reference whatever package maintained by nowot rando.
assbot: Logged on 29-01-2016 10:02:07; punkman: so shiva patch wholly includes the tinyscheme genesis instead of referencing it?
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-01-2016#1388260 << there shall be no further fucking referencing.
thestringpuller: and coworkers make fun of me for using terminals and lightweight tools cause they "ain't pretty" the actual fuck. this is exactly why being a web developer is like slow torture.
mod6: tl;dr we need all of you! you are what make the republic possible!
mod6: We've come a very long way, and we've still got some road ahead (we all know), but we can't have a republic with out the sovereigns participants who wish to make it.
thestringpuller: ascii_butugychag: d00d I have to upgrade to el capitan to scroll on the mouse?!?!?
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: notice how ~some~ programmers (india!) l00000ve repetitive crudwork. they produce glorious unrolled 10,0001-iteration loops, etc.
mod6: And honestly, I really look forward to working on these projects every day, and with all of you. :]
mod6: ascii_butugychag much appreciates the labours of mod6 << alf, you've put in a lot of effort too, and we all appreciate that very much.
thestringpuller: ascii_butugychag: you should tell this to the leadership here who wants to automate all things.
ascii_butugychag: BUT those 5 sec the old crud cost me every 15 min. were ~flow-destroying~.
mod6: ok the new script, having V outside of the rotor dir seems to be building just fine so far... will update again when its complete, or if fails.
mircea_popescu: actually that's the first time someone brought a cogent, well thought out objection to the classic "programmers wanna play and so ruin productivity spending moe time on tools than the tools save" thing
mircea_popescu: wanna bet you spent more time fucking around with the auto thereof than it saved you ?
mod6: Things are moving really fast here sometimes, and that can be hard to keep up with, but it's part of the deal.
mod6: b-a has honest and knowledgeable people who care about the innerworkings of the technology, on a low-level, as well as on a meta level.
ascii_butugychag: you can specify a tag file it will fill from when tab(or your favourite other key)-completing.
mircea_popescu: how the fuck is emacs going to fill in with irc names.
ascii_butugychag: one of the 10,001 reasons why.
mircea_popescu: "what the fuck is this piece of shit!"
mircea_popescu: me types three letters in editor, hits tabs a few times, is very confused when the required fill-in doesn't occur.
mircea_popescu: if anyone recalls that joke about how mathematician is the only man who tells mistress he's with wife, tells wife he's with mistress, goes to woods with pen and paper to unwind...
ascii_butugychag much appreciates the labours of mod6
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> mod6 alrighty, seems it's teh consensus here. << ok lemme put this together, and will post in here for you guys to review, and people to test.
mircea_popescu: no dawg, im not done wioth the logs. then reading the #eulora logs which by now are even longer.
mod6: that's probably more acceptable than the following: ~/.wot by default (in the script) or stopping the script mid-processing to require human action (action should be taken prior to execution)
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu rather
ascii_butugychag read the mega-patch-of-all-ages yet ?
mircea_popescu: no i finally see the light.
ascii_butugychag: and all of the attendant breakages
mod6: and I think this is what we want. So we can stick with that, and probably not break anything -- i'll just move V & .wot outside of the rotor dir.
mircea_popescu: did the entire week long circuitous path start with me bitching / trying to improve on it ?
mod6: ok so lets keep in mind that v99996 of V will only look for .wot in the current working directory unless told to look elsewhere for it explicitly.
ascii_butugychag: if you use variants - specify the variant each time, like the laws of man and god demand.
ascii_butugychag: and if you don't do variant wots, it can live there permanently.
mircea_popescu: chiefly because I can aforehand know where i need to put the .wot and stick it in there.
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag well looky, the problem there was that the dir tree wasn't curated well.
ascii_butugychag: 'whaddayamean i have to have the build tools 3 dirs out'
mod6: that would be fine, but then we're in the situation where every single time that someone runs it for the first time, the script will fail with an error.
mircea_popescu: put the test sufficiently high up in the program flow you won't have bad things happen.
mircea_popescu: so how about the script expects to see .wot in a relative path to the project, and if it doesn't it aborts with an error.
mircea_popescu: and overall a weakening of the entire security scheme
mircea_popescu: mod6 the only concern with "Separate but equal .wot dir root" is that you will end up in a fucking mess of /try1/.wot /tryn/.wot and mix and match them with actual builds takingpart in another place and sooner or later you'll cross them up, or your eyes will, and the net result will be that you run a different security protocol than you intended, on occasion,
mod6: <+ascii_butugychag> i still don't get why a vtron should use the net at all << I'm open to well defined explicit ideas here.
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag why not ? and stop interrupting the guy!
mod6: this was never really meant to be "the thing" just was initially meant for testing. somehow became "the way"
ascii_butugychag: i still don't get why a vtron should use the net at all
mircea_popescu: what's the problem with this approach ?
mircea_popescu: the way i see this is, script tries " mkdir -p rotor/.wot " , if it succeeds it says "wot dir created, populate and re-run please" ; if it fails it proceeds with build.
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> why can't it be populated by hand ? << how can you populate by hand while the script is running?
mod6: the only actual alternative here is to create .wot adjacent to rotor directory, along with the V source
mod6: ok. so if we create a .wot in /.../rotor/ (so, rotor/.wot), then it can not be populated by hand...
mod6: then it moves into these directories to continue all of the gyrations that need to happen to build everything
assbot: Logged on 29-01-2016 07:42:24; polarbeard: I've timestamped and categorized trb log lines, as well as improved the messages and removed (seeming never activated) destructive log rotation, here is the signed patch: https://gist.github.com/polarbeard/961aa315c69b89d2e613 in case somebody with a decent reputation wants to review it so I can submit it to the ml
thestringpuller: nope. it's billed to the department.
thestringpuller: ascii_butugychag: I just got one of those mice from the vending machine. (We have vending machines at work for accessories. Slowly replacing IT with robots.)
mod6: Chicken/Egg problem with that script then.
mircea_popescu: (actually half the reason to even have v is to run it with diff wotsets)
mod6: so it should be populated by hand, outside of the build path, and referenced only in the script for access.
mircea_popescu: but it should still be a subdir of the working space rather than a fixed dir somewhere
mod6: I can do that just fine yes, but i don't think we should populate the .wot directory via script.
mod6: make note that V does not /expect/ or /default/ to a ~/.wot dir, it just so happens in this case, that it needs to be somewhere accessable outside of the rotor build path
mircea_popescu: mod6 populated by hand, yes, that was the idea.
mod6: mircea_popescu: it has to be, there is no way that we can create and populate a .wot directory inside of a directory that is created by the script
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: its "the tor project" they can't fit all of that into a single bozobit. Requires a whole base58 encoded xml bozo turd.
mircea_popescu: the script ~must~ reference a .wot directory somewhere outside of the entire rotor build area. <<< wait wut ?!
mod6: ./v.pl i http://thebitcoin.foundation wd ~/.wot
mod6: so I'm going to have the script reference ~/.wot -- this seems like a resonable place to put it -- again, V will not expect it to be there, so an additional param is placed in the V command as such:
mod6: One notable change to the build script linked on the wiki: Since we're pressing out V in a directory that gets created by the script, there is no way to have a .wot inside this dir that it can find -- the script ~must~ reference a .wot directory somewhere outside of the entire rotor build area.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo this significantly changes the bozo bit on "the tor project" from "don't install that shit" to "don't install that shit".
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-01-2016#1388202 << why do the usg-tards look so much like attention whoring hipsters these days ?
BingoBoingo: lol, the Tor 'Tails' distro switched to systemd now
assbot: Logged on 29-01-2016 06:06:33; mod6: "Eventually we can migrate the whole RPC orchestra to this." << seems reasonable.
assbot: Logged on 29-01-2016 04:27:23; ben_vulpes: arcane linker errors coming from the "pods"
mod6: All: Stand-by I've made some updates to the script referenced in the wiki as to drop in the latest version of V (with the latest 3 patches in the mirror) - im gonna test it, then post it here. It'd be good to have some of you test it too.
mats: ascii_butugychag: there is warez
ascii_butugychag: the joys of all weird proprietary hardware
ascii_butugychag: (quite worthless, i must note, without the aftermarker driver that lets you program new patterns in. need this in order even to have middle-click..)
ascii_butugychag: thestringpuller: 'magic mouse'
thestringpuller: or the white wireless mouse thing
thestringpuller: ascii_butugychag: the magic mouse?
ascii_butugychag: now i am fighting a compulsion to stick that tape to the bottom of every single object on my desk
ascii_butugychag: BingoBoingo: they gave me this surprisingly spiffy apple mouse-touchsensor-chimera, but it has gigantic rails in contact with the table, and tremendous static friction. but it turns out that teflon will make it slide aaah so nicely along, like hockey puck..
ascii_butugychag: (i wanted the book for a reason)
ascii_butugychag: mod6: shiva is unabashedly a beachhead to eventually have the whole thing enlisped.
ascii_butugychag: (as my instructions note, it is necessary to rename a directory after pressing tinyscheme-genesis to end up with the shiva subdir in shiva patch)
ascii_butugychag: i suppose this is when i restate my rage at the idiocy of gnudiff
assbot: Logged on 29-01-2016 06:06:33; mod6: "Eventually we can migrate the whole RPC orchestra to this." << seems reasonable.
mod6: <+asciilifeform> http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2016-January/000201.html << cool! thanks for posting.
BingoBoingo: Aha, just don't heat the mouse over 500 degree farenheit
thestringpuller: the problem here is I doubt satoshi had any idea how visa and traditional payment systems scaled in comparison to bitcoin.
thestringpuller: Nope. The people focused on traditional payment processing believe Bitcoin should scale to visa levels cuz "Satoshi said so"
thestringpuller: I don't even know if I should bother reading r/btc. kills brain cells like drugs.
thestringpuller: GMaxwell is ranting up reddit repeating the Visa is not Comparable with Bitcoin thing.
BingoBoingo: And on that qntra page there's a bit more than a hundred KB of text on that page which gets compressed for transit
fluffypony: for anyone reading the logs I apologise for not providing a trigger warning
fluffypony: have you tried maybe not kissing the computer?
trinque: there is a kiss of death for btcd which halts it in its tracks, does not crash.
BingoBoingo: Seriously though http://qntra.net/2016/01/nacdl-amicus-silk-road-warrant-unconstitutional-according-to-4th-amendment/ load less than 1/6th the data of http://www.coindesk.com/scaling-debate-bitcoin-core-outreach/ even when ignoring javascript
davout: BingoBoingo: "Qntra is the only Bitcoin news outlet committed to bringing Bitcoin news to Africa." <<< brilliant!
BingoBoingo: And for the bunny rabbit everything that moves and is not a fellow rabbit is acting in a concerted manner and an immanent threat.
PeterL: from the vantage point of the poor, "rich people" are also a unit which acts in a concerted manner
BingoBoingo: Even through my lens which is competely illiterate when it comes to the Chinese language, the miners seem to be having very spirited conversations.
BingoBoingo: At least It's what the derps think?
PeterL: are chinese miners some sort of unit that all must act together?
assbot: Wondering out loud: Which should Chinese miners support - Core, Classic or another? ... ( http://bit.ly/1ZYt7zM )
BingoBoingo: In other feelings https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1343716.msg13712823#msg13712823
PeterL: Is there a way while it is running to tell it to switch back to the nodes you started it with?
PeterL: my node is syncing, seemed to be getting tons of junk. I restarted it, using -addnode with the nodes from the wiki, seems to be going good again.
PeterL: ^ I was just about to say the same thing!
shinohai: Everyone has spiffy node names but I. I just call mine that thing in the corner.
BingoBoingo: mats: AMD tends to have ECC as an available option in all of their chips except the consumer stuff, and even then it usually isn't the chip where ECC is precluded.
BingoBoingo: Google is unrevealing on this matter because fucking phoronix spam clogs these keywords
mats: of the 'underhanded programming guide' variety
asciilifeform: the crud will end up on dead branches.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-01-2016#1388268 << absolutely not, the very notion is a violation of vtronics. NOW on the OTHER HAND - human-powered 'gardening' of the vtree is a perfectly fine thing. notice how mod6 is doing a splendid job of it. BUT conceivably it is also possible for archaeologists to take all of the orphaned crud i ever pasted and come up with a correct vtree
assbot: Logged on 29-01-2016 10:02:07; punkman: so shiva patch wholly includes the tinyscheme genesis instead of referencing it?
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: ;;later tell polarbeard when writing a patch, consider the effort required to properly grasp EVERY LINE
assbot: Logged on 29-01-2016 08:08:31; ben_vulpes: "this 2.6kloc patch rewrites every log line in the reference implementation, in support of further work i'm doing on" etc etc
asciilifeform: the latter is now to be considered properly vtronic.
asciilifeform: anyway, to go back to business, the pedigree bridge makes it possible to read, in one sitting, all of the changes i made to the classical tinyscheme which ends up in shiva.
BingoBoingo: Prolly n00b raised in the school of "EVERYTHING AT ONCE"
assbot: Logged on 14-07-2015 19:24:25; ascii_field: 'why not start small, he said, offering the yoga n00b a single nail'
asciilifeform: it needs to frag into a dozen patches with separation of concerns before i will bother to read it.
assbot: Logged on 29-01-2016 07:42:24; polarbeard: I've timestamped and categorized trb log lines, as well as improved the messages and removed (seeming never activated) destructive log rotation, here is the signed patch: https://gist.github.com/polarbeard/961aa315c69b89d2e613 in case somebody with a decent reputation wants to review it so I can submit it to the ml
BingoBoingo: But the RPC snip possibility is a beautiful side effect
asciilifeform: none of those hooks are 'give to other people'-quality as of yet
assbot: Logged on 29-01-2016 06:06:33; mod6: "Eventually we can migrate the whole RPC orchestra to this." << seems reasonable.
BingoBoingo: <ben_vulpes> repubtards are gonna say "los federales gunned down a confused old man stumbling around in the snow!" << Old might have been the serious problem. Perhaps these men started too late to get the actual RUF sorta militia mindset. Turns out Kony was right.
jurov: not anything serious, just throwing some ideas.. looks like this needs to be revisited only when I encounter the situation actually :D
punkman: they'd conflict, can't be in same toposorted list
jurov: then it will sort *after* mempool_frobs
punkman: I think it'd be best to name the 2nd patch mempool_frobsv2.vpatch or something like that
punkman: btw, does the turdatron use v.pl?
jurov: care to share and watch them burn?
jurov: I know that i should manage the repository myself, but imo a version field would be good to have so that I can easily spot if someone posts revised version of the same patch.
polarbeard: I appreciate the suggestion, I'll just finish ensuring each line has priority and category and I'll submit then
jurov: mod6: is the V ..er.. V-ified?
punkman: so shiva patch wholly includes the tinyscheme genesis instead of referencing it?
punkman: (by filter I meant "don't save these lines", but I guess still useful when you are grepping or scanning with your eyes)
jurov: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-01-2016#1388055 yes this code is fine, cpp supports returning of objects by value, either by copying or some gnarly compiler optimization
polarbeard: yes, you're right, I'll add priority and category in each line, thanks for the observation
polarbeard: punkman: I wanted to categorize the information before prioritizing but it makes sense, in fact some server software (mongodb for instance) does this with double prefixes using this format: <timestamp> <priority> <category> <message>
punkman: so the log lines are now prefixed with two types of things: ERR INF WAR and MEM ADR BLK NET WAL. If you are gonna do this it'd be nice to have the usual log levels on all lines (error,warning, debug, info) , so user can choose how much verbosity he needs.
assbot: Logged on 29-01-2016 08:13:49; ben_vulpes: definitely split the actual muntzing out into its own patch instead of complecting it with the rest of the work. i might be able to read and meditate on that patch.
ben_vulpes: removing dead code is good, far better than rewriting the log lines. just split it out so that it can be reviewed seperately from the two thousand five hundred and ninety odd other lines of that patch.
ben_vulpes: definitely split the actual muntzing out into its own patch instead of complecting it with the rest of the work. i might be able to read and meditate on that patch.
ben_vulpes: he also wanted to tabbify the whole thing
polarbeard: if not that's fine, I built it for me, the categorization was a nice idea from mp, though
ben_vulpes: "this 2.6kloc patch rewrites every log line in the reference implementation, in support of further work i'm doing on" etc etc
polarbeard: thats ok, don't worry then
ben_vulpes: the problem with a patch of this size is that my face wearies of reading myriad log lines changed for seemingly aesthetic reasons, and i fear that even a close read will miss an underhanded c contestant.
polarbeard: nothing, but gdb is for debugging the present state
polarbeard: it truly is, as what value it has, it's just a step into better debugging capabilities, for this patch I've not added new log lines on purpose but I plan doing it for the next
ben_vulpes: one develops a sense for what happens where in the codebase watching logs.
ben_vulpes: and for what it's worth i actually like seeing the function names in the logs. i know i could just grep for the log messages, but it's another way to get familiar with the codebase.
ben_vulpes: this'd probably be best delivered as 2 vpatches: one where you rearrange the deck chairs in the log messages, and another where you muntz out the rotator
polarbeard: they are just prefix strings
polarbeard: I've timestamped and categorized trb log lines, as well as improved the messages and removed (seeming never activated) destructive log rotation, here is the signed patch: https://gist.github.com/polarbeard/961aa315c69b89d2e613 in case somebody with a decent reputation wants to review it so I can submit it to the ml
ben_vulpes: repubtards are gonna say "los federales gunned down a confused old man stumbling around in the snow!"
ben_vulpes: unless they shot him before 9:30 his hands are at his waist
mod6: "Eventually we can migrate the whole RPC orchestra to this." << seems reasonable.
ben_vulpes: the WHOLE MOTHERFUCKING WORLD is conspiring to rip the rug out from otherwise entirely stable software
mod6: as discussed yesterday, barfs a bit pressing out the tree on the tinyscheme patches because of the timestamps: http://dpaste.com/05QQ9KD.txt
mod6: asciilifeform: V did put shiva in the flow, and the verified the seals: http://dpaste.com/1AXWG30.txt
ben_vulpes: arcane linker errors coming from the "pods"
ben_vulpes: verily, i live in the modern windows.
ben_vulpes: also restarting the computer fixed "Photos"
ben_vulpes: "it's to ease context-switching" devs in the room witnessing my astonishment attempt to tell me
ben_vulpes: and lo a url i was just looking at in chrome on the phone opens in chrome on the browser
BingoBoingo: 420 pounder gets an Inquest over "How could they die of heart attack?" http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/12127760/30-stone-teacher-died-of-heart-attack-while-waiting-for-XL-stretcher.html
assbot: Logged on 24-08-2014 21:40:36; *: asciilifeform had a dream many years ago that his grandfather took an ancient grinding wheel from workshop, turned it upside-down, and taught him to ride it. and now people actually do something quite like this.
mod6: Ladies and Gentlemen of the Most Serene Republic: V [v99996] is now available via http://thebitcoin.foundation home page or the ML:
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Honestly it looks like they should get bonus points for emulating "grown up" candidates so well
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i always found the toy election thing mega-lulzy
BingoBoingo: And It happened already, because dick bags don't do the whole chronological order bsns http://www.themaneater.com/stories/2016/1/28/how-msa-senate-toppled-their-president-elect/
BingoBoingo: In further Mizzou lulz, protester are calling for student election (held after wolfe resignation) results to be nullified because Whitey won. http://www.themaneater.com/stories/2016/1/27/msa-needs-nullify-election-and-hold-another/
asciilifeform: who will be the brave man who first tries this.
mod6: heheh "Now Taste The Meat."
asciilifeform: (and yes i will re-grind the ts genesis later. it needs to be re-based to add up to patch 1 above, also)
asciilifeform: mod6: i'ma post the whole thing. i don't mind re-grinding later if necessary.