mod6: oh for like the makefiles and stuff? i think we were just gonna put the stuff in the shit dir iirc.
ascii_rear: and the deps
ascii_rear: what would be handy is if the thing could spit out a manifest of all the crap it expects to find
mod6: just create a 'patches' and '.seals' dir in the same dir as v.pl and you're golden
mod6: you don't ~need~ to run the init command at all
assbot: Logged on 31-01-2016 01:18:57; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=30-01-2016#1390077 << this is a bad idea inasmuch as it leaves my build process stranded, so i'll be stuck forever using current v and i suppose forever pressing 9996 then ?
ascii_rear: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1390327 << can we at least have the option of loading from local dir instead of www ?
ascii_rear: but very gnarly nonetheless.
ascii_rear: aha, as i said, it is the smallest known
mod6: there suprisingly isn't ~that~ much code.
ascii_rear: the nice thing about scheme vs. some random bozo half-lisp is that it is an actual STANDARD
mod6: sure, there seems to be a bunch of power here in this tool - would be nice to harness that and make some useful stuff.
mod6: anyway, yeah, i feel like if we bring this thing into the fold, i aught to know what the back end is doing.
mod6: rahter than the reverse.
ascii_rear: tinyscheme is the smallest (loc and complexity-wise) schematron that has these necessaries.
ascii_rear: otherwise i would have used classical minischeme.
ascii_rear: we can't actually use a scheme that lacks these.
ascii_rear: but reading the code has filled me with disgust
mod6: oh, ok. was that ever repaired? or isn't updated? i thought I saw the guys comment on his website that said "until i'm dead" or something?
ascii_rear: but, 1) there is a skull on the patch for a reason 2) there is not actually an alternative to tinyscheme.
mod6: ah. right, with the debugging parts enabled. yeah, danger lurks.
ascii_rear: it is intended to be a more dangerous version of existing rpc, eventually you will be able to flip arbitrary bits in the data structures with it
ascii_rear: the important message here is something else, the shiva console is not to be considered publicly exposable in any sense
ascii_rear: mod6: it took me ages to fully grasp how tinyscheme works. actually had to finish sicp for the basic mechanics of schematron to fully fall into place in my mind.
mod6: thanks for the pointers.
mod6: saw a lot of func pointers that seem to expose an interface into the thing tho
mod6: i did dig through all of the src/shiva code too - but since im not super cluded on scheme yet, dont quite know everything thats going on there.
ascii_rear: mod6: the hacking.txt that comes with classical tinyscheme is helpful
mircea_popescu: incidentally, speaking of config setups : 1. pick a list of TRB nodes ; 2. add to ifconfig, deny all others ; 3. plug eth cable, congrats, you now have a secure box. go ahead install all the toolbar spyware you care to, won't matter.
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for gernika from 1 to 1 with note: Managed to press 99996
assbot: You rated user gernika on 04-Jul-2015, with a rating of 1, and supplied these additional notes: New blood..
mod6: im digging through the shiva code :]
ascii_rear: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1390324 << scheduled maintenance on the box, removing pounds of dust
gernika: np. one of these days I'm gonna find a bug or somethin :)
mod6: i need to update my wot one of these days.
mod6: ben_vulpes: the buildroot hash is in deps/Manifest.sha512
gribble: The operation succeeded.
ben_vulpes: ;;later tell trinque i may be exceptionally retarded today, but is there a reason why shit/Manifest.sha256 doesn't contain a hash for buildroot?
mircea_popescu: even if it usually turns out to have been a stupid idea/whatever, still whining in here is the right way to approach teh knot.
ben_vulpes: i'm just fumbling in the dark
mircea_popescu: whining in here is the right way.
ben_vulpes: i'm struggling to build a cohesive mental model for the right way to approach this gordian knot
mod6: i think his 'p' or whatever the name is, is going to do away with that -- least iirc.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1390320 <<< it's a lot easier to pretend cds are the golden standard of archival while sitting on a flac collection safely kept on a rpm hdd.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform likes to scream about how dumb the keyring is
mircea_popescu: logcially, if you're not willing to import a guy's key, why the fuck are you pulling his code. write your own or w/e.
mod6: i guess that may not be horribru. ask users to gather up pub keys, place in a separate dir other than .wot, import them into temp keyring, use them, and then remove the temp keyring when finished.
mircea_popescu: so the key gotta be in keyring. so ?
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> mod6: do you expect me to have korsgaard's key in my personal keyring when running build-bitcoind-V99996K.sh? << yup, this is how it works if we want to verify the buildroot package cryptographically.
mircea_popescu: and the avenue to fix it is also well known. wget is open source. rebase.
mircea_popescu: it's a sore spot, but it's treated properly imo : quite clearly in the open.
mod6: the only real way around this is for me to write all of that stuff by hand.
mod6: i might regret the notion of using wget someday, but I figured it possibly better than writing some native code in perl that would most likely utilize some module, or even importation of the module directly.
mircea_popescu: museum nodes can be created as a derivative work at any time, they'll be as funky as pornography is. not real sex.
mircea_popescu: nodes are internet machines, they stay on the internet and are expected to work safely and securely online. end of story.
mircea_popescu: well i am unaware of this "cd based security paradigm" as anything other than a chewing-gum and ductape concoction of no practical consequence.
assbot: Logged on 30-01-2016 18:36:47; mod6: ok, well i did just rip out all the sync/init/mirrors parts of V
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=30-01-2016#1390077 << this is a bad idea inasmuch as it leaves my build process stranded, so i'll be stuck forever using current v and i suppose forever pressing 9996 then ? << yeah, i read your comments earlier on this. part of "battle-ready" to me means not only that it has lordship blessing, but it doesn't break any security paradigms that we m
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2016#1390311 << yup that's how it works. simplicity is the mother of inventions.
mircea_popescu: yeah. and, of course, the code is the standard, so just read the script as a guide :D
mod6: yeah, cause if you don't run the script, then you need to set up everything, including the rotor, buildroot & copying around the config, and tons of other stuff.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
ben_vulpes: ;;later tell trinque hey buddy looks like your makefiles depend on keys in the personal keyring
mod6: same as the makefiles will do.
mod6: i actually think if you follow the steps in the wiki, jurov is incorrect, you don't need to know anything about V. or download it seperately, or anything. the script does it all for you.
mircea_popescu: and this is generally the way it goes. anyone wants to "take wget out" - fine. the path to this is you write your own wget, sign it and use that.
mircea_popescu: so then nothing.
mircea_popescu: then i can exclude his key and pretend he never lived.
mircea_popescu: ideally, you go read the whole fucking thing, rebase and sign as your own.
ben_vulpes: so what is the thing to be done with korsgaard's key?
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=30-01-2016#1390098 << it's altogether unclear to me how it isn't battle ready.
assbot: Logged on 30-01-2016 18:36:47; mod6: ok, well i did just rip out all the sync/init/mirrors parts of V
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=30-01-2016#1390077 << this is a bad idea inasmuch as it leaves my build process stranded, so i'll be stuck forever using current v and i suppose forever pressing 9996 then ?
mod6: ofc. we'll wanna put our newb hats on and try the steps anyway tho
mod6: <+danielpbarron> what needs to be changed? just the url to the .sh ? or are some of the steps different now? << yeah, i think the steps are going to be fine, other than the URL to the new script (when we finally get it deedbotted) and the name of the script.
mod6: i guess i could do the deedbot part, not sure how to work it th
mod6: danielpbarron: do you wanna update the wiki as soon as there is a get-able deedbot entry for this?
mod6: trinque can you pu'http://dpaste.com/2VBF9V2.txt' in there (maybe run a dos2unix on it first) with a title like the other one ala 'build-bitcoind-V99996K.sh' or whatever?
mod6: <+jurov> http://wiki.bitcoin-assets.com/the_real_bitcoin does not indicate the thing exists at all << this should probably say something separate about V. but the build script grabs it as part of the build & verify proces.
mod6: <+jurov> even v.pl, for that matter... :) << this is available in the ML & on the foundation homepage.
kakobrekla: and once mailing list is thousands of pages, still the way to go?
jurov: i do have it, just trying on another computer, and said to myself - let's try this from perspective of newcomer
mod6: we need to get that script into deedbot so we can update the wiki
mod6: ah ok. just to see if you hit that same PERL_MM_OPT thing? or just on another OS?
shinohai: Gonna try another 99996 build
mod6: asciilifeform will have to confirm/deny that i used the correct patches.
phf: mod6: thanks! well more common then different
mod6: awe crap, sorry my manifest file is in the list.
mod6: and speaking of which, i'd also like to note that all of the sigs (seals) in http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2016-January/000201.html are misnamed. http://dpaste.com/1KRXSBM.txt
mod6: ok do i understand this right? (i haven't done this since before the re-bake of tinyscheme)
asciilifeform: 'b' is an interesting hypothesis and i would pay to watch it demonstrated.
mircea_popescu: anyway, i gotta go to town. we can continue this when i'm back, but less symbolistic fetishism, more alphabetic monotheism plox.
asciilifeform: 'a' is lunacy - there is NO more durable machine-readable storage presently known.
mircea_popescu: it's more or less a 1966 argument that "it is not possible to alter a vinyl disc once printed because hurr durr the plastic will melt"
mircea_popescu: the cd remains a sort of vinyl disc, for a, b and c above.
asciilifeform: it has good thermal conductivity. i can't make so much as a dent in aluminum foil with 40W co2 tube.
asciilifeform: (incidentally this is a first-class bitch to do with aluminum, esp. if you want the result to be visually inconspicuous, and not, say, a hole through the WHOLE disk sandwich.)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: they aren't simply 'different sized holes', there is reed-solomon encoding
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform can we agree at least on the concept that the notation you'll use consists of making different sized holes for 0s and 1s ?
mircea_popescu: so to summarize : a) they're less resilient than you imagine them to be ; b) they're more rewritable than you imagine them to be ; c) keepi9ng them around requires keeping a whole pile of kludge that never worked right (cd drivers etc).
asciilifeform: (yes, with the glass die, and whole orchestra)
asciilifeform: in order for the idea to have any meaning, it has to be a pressed cd.
asciilifeform: and no, it motherfucking is not.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu : FORGET about the rewritables!!!
mircea_popescu: and also it's trivial to rewrite a cd. most of them are rewritable realy.
mircea_popescu: so paper is in this sense the same as --clearsign. a cd is not that, not even remotely.
mircea_popescu: according to proponents. it's similar to the value of vinyl, in reality.
asciilifeform: it is similar to the value of ~paper~
mircea_popescu: i don't even see the value of maintaining the cd as a thing in the world. it can go the way of the celuloid film afaic.
asciilifeform: they suck today.
mircea_popescu: but that because internets sucked then
mircea_popescu: i much prefer building on the dest box whenever feasible.
mircea_popescu: the bitcoin machine HAS TO internet
mircea_popescu: understand that introducing the ability to read cds is an unneeded kludge.
asciilifeform: let'em diddle the disk on ~everybody's~ desk.
asciilifeform: entirely wrong analogy. the point of cd is to have 10,000 iridium metres.
mircea_popescu: now, mind, i don't think it's wrong to have a cast cd of the thing, just like i don't think it's wrong to have an iridium idol of the "meter" somewhere in france
mircea_popescu: all convenience is sinful by this measure. there's nothing wrong with a little sin.
mircea_popescu: which is how i discovered yest that for instance we have an undocumented "bc" dependency in the build tree
asciilifeform: wasn't speaking of the ~run~ box
asciilifeform: see the difference ?
asciilifeform: the ~build~ box
mircea_popescu: if the machine will connect ot the internet anyway, what the fuck do you imagine "airgapping" it does ?
mircea_popescu: if the machine is never going to connect to the internet, building on it airgapped is sane.
mircea_popescu: there's a time and place for all things.
mircea_popescu: looky : your design whereby a better water piping system consists of introducing a one foot gap somewhere so people can be employed to run the water across in buckets isn't as brilliant as it seems.
asciilifeform: building battlefield crypto bin on a box with no nic is the Right Thing.
assbot: Logged on 30-01-2016 19:32:50; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=30-01-2016#1390020 << they do get signed. seems a minor point, how you get them.
mircea_popescu: they are, after all, americans.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes i think they're going to try the sit around and talk about it while it goes away or whatever trick
assbot: Logged on 30-01-2016 18:05:48; asciilifeform: and loading them from the jungle every time, not nervous ?
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=30-01-2016#1390020 << they do get signed. seems a minor point, how you get them.
mircea_popescu: in... other ? news, http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/26/world/americas/argentina-scrambles-to-fight-biggest-plague-of-locusts-in-60-years.html
assbot: Logged on 30-01-2016 17:51:53; mod6: i do a lot of testing etc. often if I'm actually going to change a line of code, i'll press out a seperate branch call it 'foo', go in there copy a & b, then make changes in b. make a vpatch. drop it in my live bitcoin branch, rebuild with the rotor. bunch of stuff.
assbot: White House denies clearance to tech researcher with links to Snowden | Technology | The Guardian ... ( http://bit.ly/1PHcyCJ )
asciilifeform: http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jan/29/white-house-tech-researcher-denied-security-clearance-edward-snowden-nsa << moar from the other usa
asciilifeform: and 'The timing of Saturday's announcement is slightly awkward for the White House. On Friday, security researcher Ashkan Soltani revealed that he was denied a security clearance to work there as a senior advisor to U.S. CTO Megan Smith. While Soltani declined to speculate on the government's reason to refuse the clearance, he previously worked with the Washington Post on analyzing documents from NSA leaker Edward Snowden.'
asciilifeform: http://www.computerworld.com/article/3027924/it-industry/obama-wants-4b-for-more-computer-science-education.html << from the l0ltr0ns
mod6: aside from the sync/mirrors/init stuff?
mod6: asciilifeform: while i'm on the subject (and anyone else for that matter): is there anything else that should be excised from the current V [v99996] ?
assbot: Logged on 30-01-2016 01:42:16; punkman: does the trb server have room for a buildatron that eats patches and craps out bitcoind's?
jurov: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=30-01-2016#1389596 << what would this be good for? you are welcome to sign + post the binaries to ml yourself
asciilifeform: phf: ah i just noticed that you had the file changes marks. this ~is~ useful.
asciilifeform: the graph thing is very useful.
asciilifeform: phf: now, instead of the multiple arrows, which really don't convey any useful info, it would be interesting to vary the ~thickness~ of the lines based on the 'weight' of the change.
ben_vulpes: (and the wget 0day!)
mod6: ok, well i did just rip out all the sync/init/mirrors parts of V
phf: ben_vulpes: so actually inside the patch hunks are grouped by files, what i was referring to as hunks are actually per file hunk groups. so in other word the graph is already edge-per-file. i added the labels but it looks dodgy http://glyf.org/tmp/labels1.png http://glyf.org/tmp/labels2.png
jurov: <punkman> asciilifeform: there are more "server ARM" things coming out... << you really want like, 64 shitty cores on the workstation instead of 4x x86?
TomServo: Negative. Was just going to ask if there is any value in keep it..
ben_vulpes: rather than including procurement of deps in the build scripts, force users to actually download the deps themselves.
ben_vulpes: idem for the vpatches.
ben_vulpes: a small step to the disc would be to slam buildroot, openssl, bdb and boost into a tar.gz and stick it on the website.
mod6: i guess v99995 could rip all that stuff out. certainly would condense the code a bit.
asciilifeform: and i still see this is as the Right Thing.
asciilifeform: and i will note that ~my~ v load NOTHING from the net.
mod6: <+asciilifeform> why the hell not ? << because i tried to kinda sorta do this already... buildroot is hardcoded to download (rsync) all of its deps and stuff it needs from net. we'd have to "hack" our own buildroot.
jurov: but to hardwire it in the build process and C library?
asciilifeform: jurov: this is sorta like 'save-lisp-and-die' in the cl world
mod6: maybe in 6 months to a year, then we'll be in a spot where it's in a more hardened form. takes some time, and people using it to flush some of the shit out.
mod6: someone asked me why I don't create vpatches of the changes to V.
mod6: ben_vulpes: heheh. its more like: here's the source code, see what you can do with this. unless .1, then you can have CD and volla!
ben_vulpes: or rather, i'd like that.
ben_vulpes: we should really do a bsd, and sell the discs for a bitdime each.
mod6: the whole thing maybe lol.
mod6: yeah... there's a handful. i dunno, makes me nervous.
asciilifeform: why the hell not ?
asciilifeform: yes all of the deps
asciilifeform: mod6: at the very least, all of the stuff presently loaded from www, could easily go on cd
mod6: not only with the makefiles, but are we actually thinking about distributing all the deps ON CD?
asciilifeform: re: the hardware pr0n link earlier, it is a good example of what i call an ~iridium toilet~ - as DISTINCT from a golden toilet, it is a device that is build with 1) price is no object 2) NOT FOR showing off and playing idiot tlp rolex status games.
asciilifeform: it isn't as if the dependencies will EVER change !
asciilifeform: i don't need or want the www loading stuff for anything.
mod6: but, i typically don't hack straight on the built trb, ususally on a separate branch.
asciilifeform: speaking of pc parts, found http://www.overclockers.ru/lab/15893/Novyj_korpus_Zalman_TNN500AF_ili_1_kilogramm_tishiny.html << ancient ru picture review of infamous ~entirely motherfucking silent~ pc chassis. good illustration of what this means. entirely unobtainable today at any price.
mod6: i just re-read what I typed there (sorry, just woke up, slept like the dead), and i don't mean to make it sound like a single line, even if sometimes it is! i just make the changes i need, the most minimal changes possible, then drop 'em in and see.
ben_vulpes: (reminds me a bit of the "check every return code" naggum line)
mod6: i do a lot of testing etc. often if I'm actually going to change a line of code, i'll press out a seperate branch call it 'foo', go in there copy a & b, then make changes in b. make a vpatch. drop it in my live bitcoin branch, rebuild with the rotor. bunch of stuff.
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> mod6 and trinque as well << hacking the codebase? << I just build the statically linked bin with rotor via the build-bitcoind script that everyone uses.
asciilifeform: and don't have the problem
mircea_popescu: your cut should be more or less the coupla mil, minus cab fare.
mircea_popescu: at any rate, the plan's very simple, go to large nat'l retailer, load half a dozen disks, when the cashier refuses to sell them sucker punch him, get the police report to say he wouldn't sell you the drives, pay the whatever it is to have punched a dude and settle for whatever coupla mil they're willing to pay to avoid discovery.
asciilifeform: and dance in the court yourself also?
mircea_popescu: they provide teh proof.
asciilifeform: anyway, as with the almost 100 year philips light bulb cartel, nobody who gives a fuck has any proof, nobody with proof - gives a fuck, etc.
asciilifeform: they roll in. for lawyers.
mircea_popescu: you just file that, and let the good times roll in.
asciilifeform: why feed the lawyers.
mircea_popescu: "your honor, i tried to buy a hdd and they refused to sell me. vendor told me they have an illegal arrangement to promote the business interests of Amazon cloud services. I want 100 dollars in liquidated damages and 10bn in punitive damages kthx."
asciilifeform: perhaps we can win five cents a head like the paypall class action just did
asciilifeform: the folk rumour is that somehow there is an agreement where 'cloud' turdfarms get first dibs
mircea_popescu would have never bought. "sell me the half dozen or go to hell."
mircea_popescu: because that's how bureaucracy goes in and then never leaves.
mircea_popescu: leftover from the crisis days i imagine.
asciilifeform: incidentally there is a peculiar fact about the supply line for those. just about all of the retail vendors here in washingtonistan... ration them
mircea_popescu: and even the current state of the art spindle drives... they won't last for ever. that'll be an interesting bitcoin-fs application
mircea_popescu recalls the times when provisioning a bitcoin node came with "just set quota 100 gb or something, it'll never get there".
mircea_popescu: but THAT was not only an economic activity - it was the only economic activity in bitcoin at the time.
mircea_popescu: i had to publicly bitchslap them and privately threaten burning and pillage to get them to shut the fuck up already.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform actually the whole power ranger array threw a hissy fit, started bitching about censoring txn and whatnot,
asciilifeform: i don't recall anybody (other than that lukejr fella) crying when s.dice was doing this.
mircea_popescu: so basically, if 10k people store the blockchain, it takes just as much in hard drive costs to store the damned txn as the miners get for including them.
mircea_popescu: it's fucking ridiculous. the current cost of 14.7kb is something like
mircea_popescu: and they are getting included, and basically EVERYONE is stuck storing 14.7kb in exchange for a one time payment of nothing at all in btc or about 5 cents to a third party
mircea_popescu: in other news, oldest txn in mempool ? first seen jan the 25th, usual 14.7kb crud with 0.00015 fees.
mircea_popescu: whole fucking thing's driven by china and they don't even have to do anything.
mircea_popescu: because they're US puppets. riiiight.
mircea_popescu: i do have some (limited) microphones in there tho
asciilifeform: possibly same spew but does not make it over the ocean ?
mircea_popescu: the ru "90yos get together to decide which 70yos should retire" thing in full swing, but producing much less spew than the ru version did
mircea_popescu: so far they were fortunate to get very liberal minded leadership