pete_dushenski: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-02-2016#1392518 << but you said "in the us" where dollars don't mean things and "citizens" are africans who "make" xxx`xxx but leave no more than x`xxx to their children. (eg. http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=18-10-2015#1301882) so african africans pay $0.005/diaper and it's a wash.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes notrly, had lovage seeds courierred and that was the last thing.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: shall we try? anything you want from the states?
mircea_popescu: actually now that macri murdered their black market, maybe the borders open and i can mail you some or some shit.
ben_vulpes: at this rate the only time i'm going to come back is with a 5 yo and a 2 yo to escape election season
felipelalli: <danielpbarron> ;;later tell felipelalli ^^^ also >> http://wiki.bitcoin-assets.com/irc_bots/deedbot#synopsis << Thank you danielpbarron - I was using in the wrong way. Now it works.
mircea_popescu: it's a little place with no particular name down by the end of santa fe
ascii_butugychag: i know of no reason to suspect that anybody on the planet is mining with any method other than brute force.
felipelalli: <mircea_popescu> how is a bitfield in the gpg key help you in case you die ? or lose control of the key ? neither of these are time-able events. << well, thank you.
mircea_popescu: i bought 2 kgs of costa rican cofee. place now smells like the end of the fucking world.
assbot: Logged on 01-02-2016 14:32:39; BingoBoingo: ;;later tell pete_dushenski https://bitbet.us/bet/1198/connor-mcdavid-will-live-up-to-the-hype/#c5602 I believe
pete_dushenski: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-02-2016#1392513 << heh. gotta love teh bitbet dramas. who knew a hockey bet would be such popular fodder for "debate" ? i guess the odd sports bet ain't so bad after all, though very few of them attract 10btc+ of action like this one.
ascii_butugychag: interestingly, i fully expected, from 2010 on, folks to gnaw on the leather straps of sha256
ascii_butugychag: what was build on the opened eyes of sha256 hash asic ?
ascii_butugychag: other than the basic fact of it being a caltrop against folks who want to 'lose' the blockchain, i mean
mircea_popescu: you don't see how it's a step or how it's the right direction ?
ascii_butugychag: just pointing out that 80-90% of an x86 die is there because winblowz, really
ascii_butugychag: nobody needs the idiot 'acceleration' opcodes
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag do you see the side benefit to this happening ?
mircea_popescu: well... it is "closer to the origianl vision" at any rate.
mircea_popescu: anyway, the shifting decides that. if you make the shifting very low, mining as an activity seen today disappears altogether - the digest is much more expensive than the hashing.
mircea_popescu: PeterL nobody who wants a bitcoin-without-the-bitcoin thing would like that proposal. that's fundamentally why it's there, to readily distinguish people seeking to help from people seeking to help us hang ourselves.
PeterL: so then people who have full nodes are the front half of the mining pool, and the back half remains about what it is now
mircea_popescu: or just graph the demand curve for digests in units of time delta block finds in your head and see.
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag then read my response :D
PeterL: I guess instead of having one pool doing block hashing, you would have two pools connected, one doing the block hashing and one doing the bitmap hashing?
PeterL: seems like it would be easier to run your own node for your minerfarm than to buy from other people?
PeterL: people who want to do lightweight / trimmed blockchain would not like the proposal
ascii_butugychag: i must agree with the rando commenter, i have nfi why anybody would 'buy from nodes'
PeterL: well, "everyone" being the people commenting on your blog
assbot: The necessary prerequisite for any change to the Bitcoin protocol on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1WYbhgA )
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2016/the-necessary-prerequisite-for-any-change-to-the-bitcoin-protocol/#comment-116390 << incredibly enough everyone thinks this is a really original and interesting idea.
mircea_popescu: schmidty the idea is that you're supposed to press your own dogma so to speak.
jurov upgrading shit to win10, near the end it shows big banner "All your files are exactly where you left them".
schmidty: has anyone ever aggregated the viewpoints here into a sort of dogma or similar for the new followers?
schmidty: good to be here. still considering myself in purgatory given my lack of homework over the logs. i hope to some day join the ranks, still trying to frame it all up in my mind.
ascii_butugychag: BingoBoingo: ' pledging to sink any hard fork proposal without making these changes' --> ... 'that does not include these changes' ?
BingoBoingo: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/43opc7/popescu_proposes_healing_the_minernode_division/
thestringpuller: the rule of thumb "fits in head" helps with the notion of owning device which when understood could "fit in head".
thestringpuller: reminds of allegory of the cave. if all you know is being priest cock, why would you think something else exist.
ascii_butugychag: let's put it this way, they have priests already, and the latter are spinning the flock on their cocks like propellers.
thestringpuller: trust the priest until he diddles your son during sunday school?
ascii_butugychag: and folks who cannot, or will not, attempt said understanding, will have to find themselves a priest, yes.
thestringpuller: since they don't like to read.
ascii_butugychag: the trick here is that the proposition that you could actually understand a device that you own, is a hard sell to a great many folks
thestringpuller: yes, but these people get put in charge of sekuriteee and it makes me wonder "how?"
ascii_butugychag: having it with somebody who understands nothing of how his civilization is put together, to whom flashlight, pc, boeing, are equally magical - is a snore.
ascii_butugychag: next time try & have the argument with a literate man, who can grasp how, e.g., flashlight works
thestringpuller: told him of cardano, and was like "well how are you going to trust cardano", to which I replied with the parable of soldier maintaining own AK-47
hdbuck: just was quite amused by the latest Kaspersky Interpol Forbes combo virus
assbot: Kaspersky Lab researcher creates virus that can spread through the blockchain | Coinfox ... ( http://bit.ly/1Km6tQd )
hdbuck: qntrable? >> Kaspersky / Interpol fun: http://www.coinfox.info/news/persons/1733-kaspersky-lab-researcher-creates-virus-that-can-spread-through-the-blockchain
thestringpuller: I've upgraded the GPU twice.
thestringpuller: My most powerful box runs i5 a 1.5 TB array. Best thing in the box is a 960 GTX
ascii_butugychag: about to upgrade cpus for the 1st time, with.... circa-'09 ones
ascii_butugychag: thestringpuller: l0l
thestringpuller: Nuking the checkpoints is necessary tho.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
ascii_butugychag: ;;later tell mircea_popescu your scheme (could call it... nodecoin?) finally clicked in my head. at last, an end to the cn pond scum !!
trinque: trb node is at 384k; I will be switching to that with anti-heathen command patch very soon
trinque: jurov: I got it to squirt your txn earlier, after finding where my db lost track of the blockchain. site will update when btcd catches up, in roughly 90blks
assbot: LShift - Why I support the US Government making a cryptography standard weaker ... ( http://bit.ly/1Km3M0U )
ascii_butugychag: http://www.lshift.net/blog/2013/10/01/why-i-support-the-us-government-making-a-cryptography-standard-weaker << vintage lulz
gribble: The operation succeeded.
phf: there needs to be some patches in between
phf: polarbeard: you can't press polarbeard_better_log_messages directly on top of asciilifeform_maxint_locks_corrected period. so the ~transition~ makes no sense
ascii_butugychag: it is my considered judgement that maintaining the illusion of 'we got it right the first time' is a pointless thing.
ascii_butugychag: mod6: i found myself blowing the very tiny time budget i had, on regrinding
mod6: and a similar situation in V would be like 69 patches to patch the original patch.
mod6: ascii_butugychag: one fix every now and then isn't horrible or anything, id just hate to see the situation (like at usg-like job) where people create a turd, create a PR, and then have to keep chainging the PR until "ready"
phf: in other words there might be an antecedent, but there's also other hunks in that file that should've prevented the linkage
phf: polarbeard: it's not correct, since the graph is supposed to only show transitions, rather then descendants/antecedents. in this case polarbeard_better_log_messages touches util.h and util.cpp that are modified in polarbeard_remove_shrink_debug_file
mod6: ascii_butugychag: take a look at these and let me know what you think, plz: http://dpaste.com/0P9PR2S.txt && http://dpaste.com/2SV1RKB.txt
phf: there's a bug of some sort, pretty sure your polarbeard_better_log_messages shouldn't press from asciilifeform_maxint_locks_corrected, i'll look into it tonight
phf: which kind of broke the previous ip only links, i might fix that at some point
mod6: hey ascii_butugychag, so i figured out what my dumbass did yesterday. somehow, when looking at your fix patch - I missed the portion where you changed main.cpp altogether.
ascii_butugychag: so what means '100 is what they always cost' ?
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: they sold for $2-3K usd new
kakobrekla: which are the golde age ones according to alf?
mircea_popescu: kinda what they always cost, in nominal terms
mircea_popescu: "all 1 comments - sorted by: best there doesn't seem to be anything here" << lol reddit.
ascii_butugychag: (anyone other than me cares?)
ascii_butugychag: by the crate.
ascii_butugychag: in other nyooz, turns out that golden-age opterons (just the chip) can be had for their weight in mere gold on 'ebay'
assbot: Foxy’s Musings on Click-Slaves vs Apprentices and Their Choices in Ossasepia ... ( http://bit.ly/1PMI2aK )
jurov: btw kto si chce zarobit bitcenty hranim: http://www.dianacoman.com/2016/01/28/foxys-musings-on-click-slaves-vs-apprentices-and-their-choices/
mircea_popescu: +/** Add entropy to the pool directly. Use this for seeding or on-demand entropy. */
ascii_butugychag: and holy shit are their patches massive
mircea_popescu: o brother.
mircea_popescu: yes usg loves to present "fixes" of this nature. the odds of them making it in are about the same as the odds of obama being smart.
mircea_popescu: funkenstein_ <-- afaik the only ways are 1) require coinbase receiver's signature in block header << this is rank nonsense. i'm not signing to receive bitcoin.
ascii_butugychag: the measures against toy choppers is 100% 'majesty of the might of the state' crapolade theatre
funkenstein_: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-02-2016#1392909 <-- afaik the only ways are 1) require coinbase receiver's signature in block header 2) remove coinbase from PoW hashed header
mircea_popescu: i have no idea who makes their gaskets tho.
mircea_popescu: fortunate that miners aren't in the driver's seat
ascii_butugychag: introduces exactly the wrong incentives, and empowers the folks you least want in the driver's seat
mircea_popescu: so is the carnot cycle.
ascii_butugychag: the more i think about it, the more it seems to me that mining is a catastrophic bug per se
mircea_popescu: cuz cheaper plus you get to date the hottest sheeps.
mircea_popescu: why. because that's how the whole world was built. and how it works when it works.
mircea_popescu: currently the problem appears to be "it being outsourceable", but really, the problem is that only blind outsourcing can be done.
mircea_popescu: see, i suspect ascii_butugychag this is the major contradiction here. your idea of safety is to make it non-outsourceable, but i suspect it'd be both better and safer to make it FAIRLY outsourceable.
ascii_butugychag: ^ there is more than one way of accomplishing this effect
adlai: i just want to understand what ascii_butugychag suggested there, instead of each block header including the previous header's hash. i probably got thrown off by the word "nonce" leaking in there
punkman: not the previous block
mircea_popescu: "do you know that currently, all a miner needs is to know the header of the previous block to mine" "yes"
adlai: i didn't ask what the implications are, or why, i'm asking what exactly your proposal is, implementation-wise
mircea_popescu: they last forever!
ascii_butugychag: at the root of both, is the fact that anything produced by 'coderz' is braindamaged.
adlai: ascii_butugychag: what did you mean by "requiring whole-block hash in the nonce"?
ascii_butugychag: c is braindamaged and is the reason unix is braindamaged.
ascii_butugychag: cpp is braindamaged and is the reason why winblows is what it is.
mircea_popescu: does the selection work for you ?
assbot: The necessary prerequisite for any change to the Bitcoin protocol on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1m8jMbl )
mircea_popescu: punkman http://trilema.com/2016/the-necessary-prerequisite-for-any-change-to-the-bitcoin-protocol/#selection-277.38-277.91
mircea_popescu: adolescentine fits re "but bucket of water could cause flood and rubbing things together starts fires so i shouldn't have to sweep" notwithstanding.
mircea_popescu: the observation that "you can't have any change until you clean up your room" shouldn't really be all that controversial.
mircea_popescu: hey, i'm not the one proposing change.
ascii_butugychag: i'm not convinced that it is possible for mircea_popescu and the secret cabal of the smallint other mircea_popescus to actually get off the bitcoin bus without perma-crashing the universe
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag anyway, if the nice folks of whatever wish to change bitcoin more in the sense of, full block hash not headers, i wouldn't automatically reject it. i described a point which must be included, but i also said its details are open to discussion.
BingoBoingo: punkman: Why haven't you submitted a writeup on the Liberty Reserve thing yet?
deedbot-: [Qntra] Ether Huffing Reddit Spam Persists - http://qntra.net/2016/02/ether-huffing-reddit-spam-persists/
punkman: would you have to recalculate the digest to verify any incoming blocks as a node?
mircea_popescu: nah, it's just making sure people actually have the chain. all of it.
ascii_butugychag: what i don't get is what desirable thing the workfunction change accomplishes
mircea_popescu: (they way this is likely going to be asic'd is by keeping rainbow tables, and just adding octets. nevertheless - this STILL requires the whole chain be preserved. even if in a diff format)
ascii_butugychag: and nukes pools, at the same time
ascii_butugychag: i get that miners without nodes are retarded, but that is easily fixed just by requiring whole-block hash in the nonce rather than the idiot header system
mircea_popescu: it heals the node-miner breach.
mircea_popescu: for the obvious reason.
mircea_popescu: and it'll be way the fuck cheaper for them to buy it from you than for them to bake a cpu and hdd into the 80s era vlsi.
ascii_butugychag: i think i have a stronger chance of flying to mircea_popescu's house on a glider powered by my own farts, than for this to so much as budge the schelling point from bitcoin by so much as a nanometre.
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag anyway, the only thign this does is that if implemented, you could alter dulap code slightly and produce usable digest blocks for sale to pay for the node.
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: why not, while you're at it, premine 100% of the coins and just hand them to seoul.
trinque: meanwhile the trb node is now at 383k, thanks to new SSD
trinque: perhaps it is a matter of the key generated being invalid, though I would've expected the bits I'm using for pubkey/address generation to barf at that, and didn't
mircea_popescu: anyway. this adds the "need chinese foundries" to "need sk sdd" for maximal ,ulz.
trinque: jurov: btcd is choking on the transaction representing felipelalli's deed; I've been looking at it
mircea_popescu: yeah, i'm sure they do. why ?
mircea_popescu: this is like saying russia makes all mop buckets and so they have a stranglehold.
ascii_butugychag: they have a stranglehold
ascii_butugychag: and the ssd cartel is cackling as we speak, reading this
ascii_butugychag: requiring elaborate hardware to mine adds to, rather than takes away from, centralization.
ascii_butugychag: where there are a dozen nodes, forever.
punkman: mutating the merkle root just needs some sha256 hashing though
mircea_popescu: this will be done eventually, as the article says. but not without its costs.
mircea_popescu: moreover, you still need all the accesses.
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag different incentives. as it is now, changing the size doesn't automatically brick all miners.
ascii_butugychag: in either case, if changed - fork
mircea_popescu: but on the basis of what we currently known, a strict coupling there (4 or less bits of shift) is untractable
mircea_popescu: obviously there's no insurance against future technology.
ascii_butugychag: might bring exotical like holo storage out of the circus and into actual production
mircea_popescu: yes there's some economy of scale to be had with well designed flash banks, made each the size of a block etc.
mircea_popescu: the only reason asics exist is because sha256 you can do by hand on paper.
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag is asic going to store the whole chain ?
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: i still don't grasp the 'technological reasons' from footnote v
ascii_butugychag: briefly, unrelatedly, mircea_popescu 'the keccak function takes unlimited input' << what ?!
mircea_popescu: anyway, yes, i'm taking the time from my days of orgies and icecream to read this thing.
mircea_popescu: well the v is well designed to be forgiving and helpful.
ascii_butugychag: ben_vulpes, mod6, mircea_popescu - can, obviously, do what they like.
polarbeard: so if I can add another patch on top of these I will keep working on it but I'm tired of rediffing...
ascii_butugychag: the ~original~ grime is only cleanable at tremendous cost.
mircea_popescu: nevertheless : the grime's still there, and bitcoin would do a lot better with a better logging system
mircea_popescu: this has on one side exposed a lot of the underlying grime, and on the other side is bugging your centralist mind because you don't want to read thousands of lines of patchwork.
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag lemme summarize this for you. bitcoin eminently keeps shitty logs. a new guy came in and undertood the monstrous task of trying to fix that.
mircea_popescu: polarbeard i dunno that it was expected to either. prolly isn't, really. just, bitcoin code is too layered, random and messy.
mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag i didn't object to it in principle, but it's also not covered by the new logging model.
mircea_popescu: they ran out of reddit or something ?
mircea_popescu: and my god, the return ret; stuff already
Tasoshi: what I find surprising is that the propaganda video has any persuasive power when it visually shows its settlement system as being very centralised - that is many people connecting to 1 hub/bank...
mircea_popescu: polarbeard mno, this is no good, it doesn;t solve the naked return problem. for instance (all from bitcoinrpc.cpp) : return error; at line 44 ; return "bitcoin server stopping"; line 162 sorta thing.
Tasoshi: as you all remember, all videos about bitcoin were super amateur back then
assbot: Why the blocksize limit keeps Bitcoin free and decentralized - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1SxKqHk )
BingoBoingo: Tasoshi: Is this the video? http://www.pornhub.com/view_video.php?viewkey=ph558c08d45a454
BingoBoingo: Tasoshi: You gotta specify the video
thestringpuller: there will always be mr. spams
Tasoshi: if you do, then why should you restrict access to all?
Tasoshi: if you do not think 51% will be honest, then sell your bitcoins.....
assbot: The necessary prerequisite for any change to the Bitcoin protocol on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Q70TOa )
BingoBoingo: Tasoshi: Didn't you see there's a way to get MP to buy into a hard fork? http://trilema.com/2016/the-necessary-prerequisite-for-any-change-to-the-bitcoin-protocol/
assbot: Logged on 01-02-2016 14:34:29; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-02-2016#1392335 << poverty limit. ask the world bank :D
ascii_butugychag: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-02-2016#1392518 << the 'poverty limit' is a crock of shit, many of the supposedly-'poor' live rent-free
Tasoshi: Why do you not tell me and all what corrupted your mind to make you turn against the genius of satoshi?
mircea_popescu: Tasoshi looky, im sure you have nice intentions et all, but intentions don't matter. put some actual sweat into it. answer the original question, answer it well rather than flailing around.
assbot: Logged on 01-02-2016 14:26:12; jurov: mod6 ben_vulpes asciilifeform : do I understand right sha512 is hardwired in V? is there a space for sane upgrade path?
ascii_butugychag: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-02-2016#1392496 << the sane upgrade path is TO THERMONUKE GNUDIFF and have turing-complete operation set!
ascii_butugychag: what is wrong with these ?
mircea_popescu: there's no way around this. what would you do ?
mircea_popescu: dude the fucking returns have to be fixed.
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: i disagree that the mega-turd that touches 10,000 lines is justified.
assbot: Logged on 01-02-2016 13:48:58; PeterL: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/81b25113-e9e7-485d-995a-b13e790305ae/?raw=true << so I just restarted bitcoind, using -connect to all the trb nodes in the wiki, it looks like only Inciatus is letting me connect, the rest are refusing my connection?
thestringpuller: yup. look at what the power rangers have done!
assbot: Logged on 01-02-2016 13:23:16; polarbeard: mircea_popescu, asciilifeform: here is the logging patch split up in three: https://gist.github.com/polarbeard/ccf92c5f83753a03370a, https://gist.github.com/polarbeard/38b7835cb5f7863d4547 and https://gist.github.com/polarbeard/621f39b7cf21d736400e
Tasoshi: is one propaganta video sufficient to turn you all against the genius of satoshi?
BingoBoingo: Tasoshi: Seriously give the Bitcoin code a read. Version 0.3.21, 0.5.4, 0.7.2, and 0.8 are all essential reading
Tasoshi: to scale on chain so as to give the security and privacy of onchain transactions to all
punkman: mircea_popescu: re:sha3-digest, here's one idea, asic miners can get around recalculating the digest on every hash by changing the merkle-root/timestamp instead of the nonce
mircea_popescu: fine, if you must. "meanwhile i read the code".
Tasoshi: So Satoshi's great test to determine whether bitcoin can operate through decentralised consensus is now on. mircea_popescu, I have been looking at some old posts and it seemed that in 2013 you agreed with Satoshi and his vision. What exactly did you learn in 2013 to turn yourself against Satoshi's vision itself?
polarbeard: mircea_popescu: mmm for me the ranges in that site don't work, which line is it?
mircea_popescu: phf http://www.intodns.com/btcbase.org and btw, did i say how much i like the blue and red and shit ?
thestringpuller: how's the labor camp?
mircea_popescu: polarbeard http://104.131.72.249/patches/polarbeard_better_log_messages#selection-8295.32-8295.60 < plox no ' in loglines so people don't have to escape the shit out of parsing.
polarbeard: mircea_popescu: totally understandable, I wanted to split that ones in two steps: first adding labels and then modifying the messages, but that would have ended in having 4k lines :)
BingoBoingo: SolidCoin History: http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2013/11/26/cycles-repeat-themselves-mcxnow/
thestringpuller: The r/btc will eat it up "If we include this change we may get a blocksize increase yay!!!!1111"
assbot: Current Bitcoin XT contains a network splitting bug. Rather than behaving responsibly, the maintainers of BitcoinXT are smearing the developers of Bitcoin Core (whom had nothing to do with their bug). : bitcoinxt ... ( http://bit.ly/1SxDYQC )
polarbeard: yes, I need to get used to document stuff, I'll submit as much as I can to the ml if it passes
mircea_popescu: anyway, as a general comment : next time start the whole process by designing this. it's a great spot to start!
mircea_popescu: and these are prefixed by I W or A for info warn or alert ?
mircea_popescu: phf set up an A record, should do the trick, hopefully.
mircea_popescu: now lemme see how the fuck i get this ns'd.
polarbeard: ok, PRC is about the process (there is only a few msgs about that one), MEM is the mempool (IO and verification), ADR is the address index, BLK is about the block index (IO and verification), NET is about all the p2p traffic, WAL is about the wallet, MIN is about the miner process
mircea_popescu: well at this level yes, but we'll see more once i actually go throuygh the list, rulebook in hand.
polarbeard: priorities are clear? infos are totally harmless, warns alert about something actually done and errors alert about the impossibility to do something
mircea_popescu: yes but which flags are used for which kind of messages, how we select the kinds, that sorta thing
polarbeard: oh, three chars were long enough to identify each label, while being short enough to not add many dead bytes to the log
mircea_popescu: well we're not there yet, so far just asking how you designed it / how you selected the list etc.
mircea_popescu: and they are MY logs.
mircea_popescu: i dunno if you see this, but the way the flags are set impacts many people downstream.