PeterL: danielpbarron yes, but that would require there to be something rotten to fight against, I think mircea_popescu is just jumping at shadows
asciilifeform: in light of mircea_popescu's hypothesis.
assbot: Logged on 02-03-2016 18:40:06; punkman: I don't think "working" protocol means being able to assume signed and broadcasted tx has been forgotten and won't come back to bite you in the ass. What's in who's mempool is unknowable.
PeterL: even if it was removed from all mempools, would it be wrong for somebody to rebroadcast the txn, it was signed after all
punkman: I don't think "working" protocol means being able to assume signed and broadcasted tx has been forgotten and won't come back to bite you in the ass. What's in who's mempool is unknowable.
BingoBoingo: jurov: If it makes you feel any better as an embedded reporter in this conflict I sometimes wonder if, like those reporters Bush sent into Iraq and coming away with a polished view because I am not yet made to sleep in the hills with nagant and donkey.
jurov: so i have my reservations about these scenarios you and alf present here
jurov: for example the ddos was solved leveraging aws infrastructure. but if the ddosers had half a brain, they'd have drowned me in aws bills
jurov: *shrug* i know you want some insights as to the actual war, but whatever ricocheted shots came my way (ddos, tx problems), i solved myself in anti-#b-a ways without learning anything about the enemy
mircea_popescu: jurov> it's business is much closer to this goal than bitbet << the argument, while in itself respectable, very much sadly not how things work. the jew on a ship, should the ship catch fire, will be a fireman whether he signed up for voyage as jew or as fireman.
BingoBoingo: There's no cure for being 91, but it is amazing the work physical and occupational therapists can do
asciilifeform: jurov: considering that the only thing i am apparently good at is falling on grenades, i would happily sit on this one for you if i knew how.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: I've been hanging out at the hospital with Grandpa while he rehabs from his stroke. I think I might have a touch of sympathy cognitive impairment.
asciilifeform: jurov: by all rights they ought to be.
jurov: the pray tell mr. datskovskiy, why aren't s.nsa funds used to poke this house of cards?
asciilifeform: house of cards is not the only possible kind of house.
asciilifeform: that it 'works' in the sense where a house of cards that nobody's pushed, stands up.
mircea_popescu: the problem with broken things is exactly that - they "work" for you until they don't. at which point...
mircea_popescu: holy shit, the warnings i haven't been putting out ;/
mircea_popescu: jurov> let me at least know im funding the war? << i'm sorry, you thought bitcoin WORKED ?
mircea_popescu: jurov companies fold all the time. this is a thing. if in the course of their business they fail to make money, they'll lose exactly as much money as they lost.
mircea_popescu: or whatever, give away a grand to the general public so that buffet can pretend like there are no berkshire shorts. or other stuff.
BingoBoingo: <punkman> so bitbet has to resolve 1800 btc of bets to cover the damage? << MP would only have to bet a few hundred "No" on Trump to likely get money coming out of the woodwork to match it.
jurov: mircea surely has shown them!!!
punkman: so bitbet has to resolve 1800 btc of bets to cover the damage?
BingoBoingo: <jurov> let me at least know im funding the war? << Seems reasonable though BitBet particularly gets for the lesser versions of this shennanigans in the past. Perhaps something to do with its auditability.
jurov: best to put straight into the contract: "This venture's funds may be used to enforce bitcoin protocol"
jurov: let me at least know im funding the war?
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: re: reactor test << like how they tested the reactor in Chernobyl with a "stress test"
mircea_popescu: the platoon shareholders usually get butchered.
mircea_popescu: you know how it sometimes happens that a platoon gets sent on a random patrol, ends up surprising a moving contingent of enemy, a flurry of radioing and reinforcing and whatnot happens and suddenly the front is in a new place ?
assbot: Logged on 02-03-2016 16:35:04; mircea_popescu: you have to understand that the direct correlate of "bitcoin protocol is nowhere" is that i'm stuck sitting here wasting tons of resources and various people's time doing an endless array of stupid or plain weird shit to see what happens to try and understand what's what.
asciilifeform: (is there even an engl. phrase for this?)
jurov: no it's "lalalala all i did was very right and proper, it's YOU who have to come up with theory"
mircea_popescu: which is how this ended up here in the first place.
mircea_popescu: consider it a sort of coke machine for miner rigs. inasmuch as you do exactly what they'd have done, you can keep it. else - reorg.
asciilifeform: so it's nukefest time, then.
asciilifeform: what, theoretically, would it take, to get a guaranteed block weekly ?
jurov: that someone used the stupidity against you, no wonder
mircea_popescu: other than that, obviously whenever something blows up everyone wishes to not have to be in the way. sure.
mircea_popescu: jurov looky, this thing whereby in reaction to a "this guy is accused of having killed that guy and here's the smoking gun" you come up with a "hey, i fired a gun once, and the smoke went so and so" is a waste of time. you wish to construct an alternate theory, please, by all means, i would wish to hear it. but you must take ALL the points, and show that your path crossing them is cheaper than the one detailed on qntra
kakobrekla: needles to say i dont agree with mps actions or interpretation of the results, even if you take out the qntra comment.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'd be curious re: what the 'technical solution' is.
jurov: yes, because as opposed to mircea_popescu i did read the code closely and it does maintain chains of unconfirmed transactions
mircea_popescu: this is what it does for its living : tries to extract value out of the greatly economically valuable bitcoin thing.
mircea_popescu: lmao. why the fuck would you, or anyone else, expect me to spend my own money to resolve bitbet's problems ? what is this company, a charity conduit ?
assbot: Logged on 02-03-2016 17:15:50; mircea_popescu: kakobrekla yes, by the time the 4th txn trying to pay out bitbet vanished without a trace, i was sort-of expecting it.
kakobrekla: yes, goes right to the water pipe under bathroom sink.
BingoBoingo: kakobrekla: Ok, are you sure you used the clip to connect it to ground though?
kakobrekla: as i mentioned before, if you really believe that miners are conspiring against bitbet (via known outputs and amounts) then its game over for bb.
asciilifeform: so far the only solutions i can picture divide into 2 classes,
asciilifeform: hey it beats being in the business i'm in (swimming in tank of shit with shit-eating pirannhas)
mircea_popescu: hey, i'm in the business of fundamentals, apparently.
mircea_popescu: i am not in the slightest proposing this. i am saying however that the toilet may be part of the solution, but can't be THE solution.
asciilifeform: inventing the toilet is not enough, you have to go to it
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: you cannot solve the problem of hygiene with technological means, no.
PeterL: so the lesson here is "don't send 0 fee txen if you are not patient enough to wait a few weeks"
mircea_popescu: so... no. you can't solve the problem of fiat through technological means, be they bitcoin or anything else. the same people that abandoned the fiat to "mysterious entity" will just as readily abandon bitcoin, and their own asshole.
PeterL: t1 is after t2 makes sense since tx1 had 0 fee, while tx2 had a fee and was therefore included faster
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i've been thinking about it, but i don't think this is actually resolvable. as it happens - the "magically working network - we don't know how it works" thing is much more appealing to the average joe than you know, "this is my node. i will defend it with my life". what life, are you kidding, got sitcoms to watch and shit.
PeterL: no, tx2 is not tx 1 because they have different inputs
mircea_popescu: did you get the part where tx2 is really tx1 and was sent 8 days prior to what you insanely call tx1 ?
PeterL: tx1 was sent, included in a block at t1, tx2 was sent, included in a block at t2, the fact t1 and t2 are close together is just a coincidence, not a problem
asciilifeform: i for one am disappointed, i expected there would be a lively thread re: the exact how-tos of applying boot to some well-deserved faces in the middle kingdom and elsewhere.
mircea_popescu: so that the problem can be fully exposed, in detailed, solid fact, so as to be handwaved by people.
mircea_popescu: or at any rate something-like-it. of the vast array of various nonsense readily available in ample stores on this networked currency of the future.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla yes, by the time the 4th txn trying to pay out bitbet vanished without a trace, i was sort-of expecting it.
mircea_popescu: mkay then.
BingoBoingo: The timing
PeterL: I don't see a problem, you signed two transactions and they both were mined, where is the problem?
mircea_popescu: whether i am surprised or not is not included in this discussion. i don't recall saying i was surprised, nor does over-the-lan telepathy historically work. moreover, my own state is deeply irrelevant : the problem is there, and it's grinning at you.
kakobrekla: actually, to put it in another way, im surprised you are surprised over the events that happened given your set actions.
kakobrekla: its like gpg signing "i give you half of pile x" the reciever says "didnt get the message at all" and then you go ok nvm "i give you half of pile y" now.
kakobrekla: or should i say inputs. i always get confused with the two.
kakobrekla: becase i assume you know once you put out a signed statement of spending some outputs those can actually be spent at a later time if they are still there.
mircea_popescu: you think i'd rather have 18 btc than know all this ? i wouldn't.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: trb didn't even get off the runway until magic constants, recall.
kakobrekla: anyway paying out the bet with a different set of inputs after you have made a broadcast of the signed tx from the first inputs even to a single node, without moving those inputs elsewhere first, is a noobish mistake. why you were unable to do that is a different matter.
mircea_popescu: why the fuck is anything. because software sucks ?
mircea_popescu: i distinctly recal trb nearly sunk in the other incident, while mpb provided the magic constants. why was that ?
asciilifeform: i distinctly recall that trb sailed through the july incident while mpb did not.
mircea_popescu: the reward's halving, they regard their capital investment as ~worthless, and we have crossed bitcoin event horizon.
mircea_popescu: other than the obvious "they're getting sloppy" there is, of course, the alternative explanation that the current crop of miners roughly speaking stopped giving a shit.
mircea_popescu: one of the many protocol items that turned to be promises was - i shouldn't NEED any defense.
asciilifeform: and certainly there is nothing truly heterogeneous about 11 old versions of satoshi's crud.
asciilifeform: especially then.
asciilifeform: d bet money that there is some peculiar mpbism that is being exploited here.
asciilifeform: which we (other than mircea_popescu) have nfi what it does.
asciilifeform: ahahahahaha so we have mircea_popescu's mpb mysterymeat in the mix.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla> one thing that goes through my mind is that trb/mps << this is true, but let me clarify that An set of txn were broadcast through a set of > 1k distinct peers. most of which i don't regard as peers in any sense, but nevertheless they did get to hear about them from my own nodes.
kakobrekla: BingoBoingo feel free to remove the one that is br0ken and does not validate as far as im concerned.
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: we - or at least i - have nfi what 'most nodes' are or do. the sybils are not necessarily relevant.
kakobrekla: one thing that goes through my mind is that trb/mps infrastructure is on the border of 'consensus' behavior of most nodes. this makes it more susceptible to odd/unwanted shit happening.
mircea_popescu: which at the time i did buy as a sufficient explanation.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aha, which is why i did not ring the alarm.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the first set was ~arguably~ due to the malleator magically failing on select txn
mircea_popescu: i suppose you know, gut feeling. can go either way. which is why i said, doesn't have to accept anything.
asciilifeform: kakobrekla this is not even the first botched payout on bb!
mircea_popescu: so then on what does he base himself ?
asciilifeform: none of the necessary priors are known.
mircea_popescu: well, incredibly enough, nobody has actually calculated the fucking odds, to support this view.
mircea_popescu: enough space if the particles arrange just right
asciilifeform: i can fall through the floor.
mircea_popescu: nothing is randomly impossible. i have no argument there.
kakobrekla: i dont see the events that took place as randomly impossible
mircea_popescu: the problem is that "weird shit" just coallesced into everyone's worst nightmare.
asciilifeform: punkman: nope, but the bullet whistled by
mircea_popescu: more generally, you can't bring arguments as to what the standard is on the basis of "look what this implementation does". the illustrative case of this being the four men in a dark room with an elephant.
BingoBoingo: <kakobrekla> who here has control over approving the comments ? Approved nao
mircea_popescu: but there's logic behind that!
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla but it's not about me, per se, it's about the thing, such as it is.
BingoBoingo: !up Luke-Jr May get an ack if "brick chicom miners" goes with it? Been hanging out with stroke victims recently and my brian is having sympathy deficits so I gotta defer to the peerage.
PeterL: or did we do that and that is why we had to add the high/low s thing?
mircea_popescu: well, you have a large pile of stuff to explain away then. i'd be curious to read the alt theory kakobrekla
PeterL: I guess you cold test whether you are directly connected to miners or bridged by prb nodes: send a txn which prb does not like, see if it gets included in a block
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: dark matter is not 'mystery meat.' is is a thing that is definitely present but gives only indirect shadow of being there.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla not even. prb is more or less the random noise.
asciilifeform: a good chunk of the 'protocol' as i pictured it, turned out to be... promise.
kakobrekla: prb is what relayed your txes to the miner gates.
mircea_popescu: punkman the notion that prb is relevant to this discussion is shocking/ridiculous, depending on your mood.
mircea_popescu: the advantage being, of course, that i have a whole lot of canaries in all sorts of apparently unexpected places. the drawbacks... heh, let's not talk about that, i'll just get angry.
mircea_popescu: you have to understand that the direct correlate of "bitcoin protocol is nowhere" is that i'm stuck sitting here wasting tons of resources and various people's time doing an endless array of stupid or plain weird shit to see what happens to try and understand what's what.
punkman: relevant: "Bitcoin Core will only allow replacement of transactions which have any of their inputs’ nSequence number set to less than 0xffffffff - 1." (in 0.12 release)
mircea_popescu: from experience, the stuff the chinese miners run would, at least most of the time. historically i thought this is just random variance between divergent implementations, but now i think it's a single unit behaviour modulated somehow. also, this is essentially what "Replace by fee" is all about, iirc.
punkman: mircea_popescu: which implementations would accept a replacement tx with a fee, assuming they still have the 0fee tx in mempool
mircea_popescu: punkman you mean which implementations would accept a tx with a fee ? seeing how they wouldn't see the other one ? or what ?
kakobrekla: who here has control over approving the comments ?
mircea_popescu: PeterL ask vessenes and the merry friends/captains of industry/power rangers/etc
punkman: which implementations do you think would accept the subsequent higher-fee transactions (putting aside the fact that you couldn't see the first 0fee tx in anyone's mempool)?
PeterL: Where is the protocol documented?
mircea_popescu: more importantly, "the protocol is X" "no because implementation y" "implementation Y is noncompliant" "no" "because ?" "uhhh"
kakobrekla: i said the same.
assbot: Logged on 02-03-2016 16:20:40; mircea_popescu: the protocol is that 0 fee txn can't even be relayed.
mircea_popescu: PeterL this is not what was said! didja read the qntra piece ?
kakobrekla: there isnt one. trb behaves differently than prb if nothing else.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla or so we thought. but it turns out that no, there's exactly one, covered in a cloud of buzzing shit.
kakobrekla: there are many different version of nodes and implementations abiding by different rules on bitcoin network.
PeterL: ok, I buy some egold from bob, send him 1 btc. He sees the 0conf txn, transferes the egold to me, then I doublespend the inputs with a higher fee, sucks to be him
mircea_popescu: but yes, because "the protocol" is not even written down, endless arguments of this nature can be had. by and large...
kakobrekla: they relay but not as well.
PeterL: what if it is just somebody trying to scam by getting a party to accept a 0conf txn, and then double spending it?
mircea_popescu: the protocol is that 0 fee txn can't even be relayed.
PeterL: but is the protocol to keep older txn or newer, does fee size matter?
mircea_popescu: because it's part of a set of mutually incompatible txn, and some of the others have better fees, for instance. if you're am iner, you want the higher fee.
mircea_popescu: it is breaking the protocol inasmuch as a protocol exists.
PeterL: maybe a mine who likes to listen instead of talk held onto the first transaction?
mircea_popescu: i didn'taskl anything of anyone. i listen to a large cross-section of the bitcoin relay network.
PeterL: you asked the miners specifically?
mircea_popescu: except they didn't report it ?
PeterL: which is why none of the other txn that followed it were included, they were invalidated by the first txn which was in the miners' mempool
mircea_popescu: PeterL that's the idea.
mircea_popescu: that happens to be, involuntarily i guess, and impredictably for the attackingside, i guess, a passive timing of their capabilities.
PeterL: maybe it was the miner who had been holding it who broadcast it?
mircea_popescu: PeterL the operative part there is, txn was "broadcast" and then "included in a block" within 20-odd minutes.
PeterL: if it had been two days instead of two hours after the other transaction, would you still have concluded miner collusion?
PeterL: I still dun see why you jump to the conclusion of miner holding blocks, maybe they rebroadcast the transaction as they moved it from "0fee waiting line" to "now including these txen" when they had held it long enough for the wait time to increase its priority?
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-03-2016#1420073 << maybe describe then, what you'll need. (here, or in pgpgram..)
asciilifeform: and the remainder was sourced, i think, from something mircea_popescutronic, as almost all of my coin in fact is.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform was it sourced from bitbet payouts ? i recall pete_dushenski saying the same happened to him, originally blamed it on multibit.
assbot: Logged on 01-03-2016 23:32:18; mircea_popescu: i personally think the only reason it's not mined yet is that there hasn't been a block.
PeterL: how do you know they are delaying?
mircea_popescu: within "minutes", where "minutes" just neatly fits in the cartel head-of-best-chain report delay.
mircea_popescu: and, ironically, the substantial proof that there was nothing wrong with any of them PER SE, was that a tx that, as per the protocol, should not even have been relayable made it into a fucking block
kakobrekla: and for the next tx will it again take a week and not be done again ?
kakobrekla: so you are saying you are unable to make any further txes on bitcoin network at all?
mircea_popescu: and to fix this then your advice is to what, make An+1 ? because then surely ? for how long ?
kakobrekla: or should i say rather 'doublepay'
kakobrekla: or move the inputs of the first tx beforehand and invalidate the doublespend possibility
mircea_popescu: miners can attack any user, with an unsolvable "either doublepay or never pay" dilemma.
PeterL: unless this exposes some flaw in the bitcoin system, and the btc price crashes, and then we are all fucked
PeterL: I guess I can't complain too much about this bitbet blunder, the "extra winnings" I got from the bet was higher than my proportion of the loss as a bitbet shareholder (unless this tanks the share price too)
mircea_popescu: well for starters, deleting this "must hardfork to prove we can do it" nonsense and replace it with the much more sensible "must brick miners to prove we can do it", at the very least.
mircea_popescu: you think you're using the bitcoin network, but in fact you're using the chicoin network.
mircea_popescu: it's one of those "you think you're buying a fine piece of american engineering, but otherwise it's made in china" things.
mircea_popescu: this is fine, but also rather irrelevant. migth as well tell darwin he's just being anticlerical.
PeterL: okay, so getting into a block right after your other txn is a bit of a coincidence, but not inconceivable
mircea_popescu: that's how the pros do it, at any rate.
mircea_popescu: you're a college man, right ? tokenize the events, assets probabilities per token, calculate the overal chance of this happening.
PeterL: to me, it seems like it was just a miner holding onto a zero fee txn, and it happened to move to the top of the 0 fee txn pile right after you resent the txn
PeterL: Or are you expecting everybody to nicely send back the mistaken funds?
PeterL: mircea_popescu: so the Jeb Bush bet winners were sent their winnings twice? Does that 16 btc go as a loss on the bitbet books?
gribble: The operation succeeded.
jurov: ;;later tell ben_vulpes till the cache hasn't cleared, use http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/bitcoinrpc.cpp?v=0.5.3.1 instead
deedbot-: [BitBet Bets Bets] 3.63428528 BTC on 'No' - Donald Trump will win the 2016 United States Presidential Election - http://bitbet.us/bet/1250/donald-trump-will-win-the-2016-united-states/#b16
gribble: (ticker [--bid|--ask|--last|--high|--low|--avg|--vol] [--currency XXX] [--market <market>|all]) -- Return pretty-printed ticker. Default market is Bitfinex. If one of the result options is given, returns only that numeric result (useful for nesting in calculations). If '--currency XXX' option is given, returns ticker for that three-letter currency code. It is up to you to make sure (1 more message)
gribble: Error: This is not one of the supported markets. Please choose one of ['bcent', 'okc', 'btcn', 'coinbase', 'cbx', 'btce', 'bfx', 'btcavg', 'btcde', 'krk', 'bitmynt', 'btsp'] or 'all'
mircea_popescu: "yeah, except they'll try it a little sooner or later, and then a little more. and the public is mostly made up of the same public that thought Britney Spears is a singer."
mircea_popescu: "the network will be safe because the miners won't shit in the soup because they'll be too afraid of the public reaction"
mircea_popescu: and the most ... snore, i suppose, aspect of this is that other than the few dedicated philiphinos caught without talking points, the general redditard population is amply incapable of even understanding what was said. at all.
deedbot-: [BitBet Bets Bets] 3.00000000 BTC on 'Yes' - Donald Trump will win the 2016 United States Presidential Election - http://bitbet.us/bet/1250/donald-trump-will-win-the-2016-united-states/#b15
ben_vulpes: bit twiddling for motherfucking arithmetic?
mircea_popescu: it's not the c way
ben_vulpes: were simple sensible human mathematics too dirty for satoshi and company?
ben_vulpes: right because '>>' can be overridden at the...object(?) level in c++
mircea_popescu: it's either "shift bits by this many", "output to this entity" or else "pleasure my wife"
asciilifeform: 'in my country there is problem...' (tm) (r) ('borat')
mircea_popescu: a problem which to my eye looms a lot larger than whatever, "the last time english speaker wrote usable code was before they had electric typewriters"
ben_vulpes: as reported in the grey whore!
mircea_popescu: fabulously, utterly, completely, 18 months they're wiped.
mircea_popescu: pretty much the only way to handle centralization in mining as it is designed is through periodically picking up the fattest pig and throwing it through a glass pane.
ben_vulpes: the fiat competition was supposed to solve this, but unfortunately the trumpenreich is just TOO GODDAMN INCOMPETENT TO EVEN COMPETE WITH THE CHICOMS
mircea_popescu: samsung ? the fabled garage miner that hasn't existed since 2013 ?
ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-03-2016#1419855 << you know, if the cost of running a pool is only 1% over subsidy + fees...
mircea_popescu: ftr ben_vulpes the c spelling is antiquated but english!
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: why would the cartel have picked up the original 0 fee transaction instead of the feeful later?
ben_vulpes: mod6: phf dumped a patch in the logs for compiling under gcc
assbot: Logged on 02-03-2016 03:20:58; mod6: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-03-2016#1418803 << i usually just modify the rotor script so that it just builds bitcoind with all of the necessary environment vars set, but comment out the building of BDB/SSL/Boost. The re-compile usually takes a few minutes. Not more than say 15.
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-03-2016#1419829 << with phf's patch (are you going to post that to the ML or shall i?), my post-clean compile takes 1m 16s << im not aware of phf's patch. i did recompile with shiva when it was first introduced, didn't add or subtract any compile time as far as I could tell.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: astonishing, how the same old crud comes back again, again.
asciilifeform: and in general all variations on the 'locked coins' crapola
asciilifeform: punkman: the timelock thing
assbot: Logged on 02-03-2016 03:20:58; mod6: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-03-2016#1418803 << i usually just modify the rotor script so that it just builds bitcoind with all of the necessary environment vars set, but comment out the building of BDB/SSL/Boost. The re-compile usually takes a few minutes. Not more than say 15.
ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-03-2016#1419829 << with phf's patch (are you going to post that to the ML or shall i?), my post-clean compile takes 1m 16s
ben_vulpes: mod6: this is 'rotor_bitcoin_only.sh' in the rotor tarball
assbot: Logged on 13-11-2014 19:06:33; asciilifeform: bip64, aside from complicating the protocol and giving relevance to the gavin shitgang, is also a jam-tomorrow chumpatronic engineering structural element
BingoBoingo: Perhaps there is a new idiocy inhereted though the "Core" client fork https://archive.is/cIZOG
mod6: oh there's even a qntra post.