mircea_popescu: hanbot nubbins` is just doing his trademark low hanging fruit thing, "what's the lowest effort thing i could possibly do to maintain the pretense i'm doing something". that's his coping mechanism with life, it "worked pretty well" or whatever, it's what he knows, it's what he does. there's a whole stack of these idiots running around like pointless chickens, i dunno that much need be explained.
ben_vouspes: nubbins`: and until bitcoin accounting standards include "these are the coins i am reporting on my balance sheet" this best case/worst case ambiguity will remain.
hanbot: so mircea_popescu do you suppose these people were hacked or something, ie some kinda inept Chinese-PR? even without nubbins` meltdown, you have PeterL, the ex-mildmannered professional chemist with a family, going http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-03-2016#1427105 like a five year old suddenly, what the fuck is this?!
nubbins`: why don't they meet to institute an idiot harvest instead?
gribble: The operation succeeded.
BingoBoingo: <danielpbarron> i never understood the whole "omg when are my winnings comming, i neeeed them!" << General Bitcoin related anxiety from having them away from One's keys
williamdunne: danielpbarron: And needs them sometime between now and.. um
asciilifeform: wtf would anyone bet when the dial says '0.99...' ??
asciilifeform: let them first have however many shirts
asciilifeform: it represents the side of usg mircea_popescu likes to bring up, the threadbare zimbabwe side.
asciilifeform: phun phakt, it is a dilapidated post office, where the letters on the sign have fallen off, it is a 'p s ffic' now i think.
nubbins`: also, if you don't send me address for these shirts, i'm sending them to real nsa w/ your name on box 8)
asciilifeform: but i do recommend to nubbins` , to take a breather
assbot: You rated user nubbins` on 24-Apr-2015, with a rating of 1, and supplied these additional notes: pogoplug tester for therealbitcoin.
assbot: Successfully added a rating of -10 for danielpbarron with note: Devoted to a man rather than to a cause.
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for nubbins` from -1 to -3 with note: Suffers from the misguided notion that bitcoin companies are subject to the same rules as fiat
assbot: You rated user nubbins` on 30-Jun-2014, with a rating of -1, and supplied these additional notes: for the purpose of turning the spam nozzle two clicks towards the off position, and in the interest of discovering whether a lord can be silenced or not.
trinque: if one had invested significantly in the infrastructure for an exchange, it stands to reason that he'd not use this to hold his own funds, and instead would keep it on a usb stick plugged into his fucking pogo
davout: nubbins`: i think you made some valid points, but this is not one of them
asciilifeform: from the point of view of nubbins`
williamdunne: nubbins`: tbf while using the company wallet might be a bad habit, I don't think its an issue in itself, although reading through the logs it seems everything has gone to shit
nubbins`: mp could have sent the funds to solrodar from mp's mpex account
asciilifeform: nubbins`: did you miss the part where i point out that ~all of MY coin is just as 'mpex'y
davout: my money is on a paymium-controlled addy, your examination of my withdrawal on the blockchain would conclude to fraud?
nubbins`: if you hesitate to attempt reasoning with these facts, fuck you
nubbins`: i just gave you (a) mp saying "thanks, here's your money, here's the tx", (b) the tx comes from mpex (c) the tx is not on mpex's books
fluffypony: my wife breaks my joystick like all the time
solrodar: I'm not accusing him of anything here, just giving a bit of context to the earlier discussion
nubbins`: do you know what they call it when the CEO uses the company's bank account as his own personal bank account also?
solrodar: of course he would argue that what constitutes "company's money" does not necessarily map directly to addresses on the blockchain
nubbins`: solrodar petalol, do you have the tx handy?
solrodar: looks like he's in the habit of using an mpex wallet for personal expenses
solrodar: all indications were that the payment was in a personal capacity, and it never appeared on the statements of mpex or nsa
assbot: [OPEN] Callgraph for therealbitcoin, in SVG format. on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1R4wBMb )
solrodar: nubbins`: I was also paid directly from the same mpex address for this work: http://trilema.com/2015/open-callgraph-for-therealbitcoin-in-svg-format/
nubbins`: williamdunne http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=06-03-2016#1423536 is roughly around the time i finished reading qntra A Miner Problem article, with the first shot fired shortly thereafter
williamdunne: Yeah the only one I didn't read seemingly
PeterL: see the "miner problem" qntra article
PeterL: so the 3rd or 4th?
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for diana_coman from 2 to 3 with note: Fellow Euloran; trainer of noobs, builder of bots, gatherer of groceries.
assbot: You rated user diana_coman on 21-Jul-2015, with a rating of 2, and supplied these additional notes: fellow Eulorian; gatherer of groceries, and builder of bots.
nubbins`: i'm just gonna fuck off for a while and see if anyone bothers to care about all this evidence
nubbins`: ben_vouspes i can't see any other explanation. mircea_popescu claimed ownership of B's inputs, and they came from MPEx. Best-case scenario, mircea_popescu legitimately received the funds from MPEx and paid the bettors out of pocket. Worse-case scenario, he paid the bettors directly with MPEx funds.
williamdunne: danielpbarron: the part of life I wouldn't talk in public
williamdunne: I got kicked, spent a while picking myself up. Wasn't reading the logs very often, only Trilema and Qntra
assbot: Logged on 19-02-2016 02:24:48; assbot: You rated user gabrielradio on 14-Oct-2015, with a rating of 2, and supplied these additional notes: Apprentice Trilema translator..
nubbins`: interested parties are free to make their own decisions on what it means
nubbins`: asciilifeform but the difference is that your coin wasn't sent to bettors.
nubbins`: mumble mumble MPEx funds being sent to bettors and BitBet getting stuck with the bill
nubbins`: so, put another way: mircea_popescu borrowed money from MPEx, sent it to bettors, and charged the expense to BitBet
nubbins`: the 1Gpng output gets successively split up into a bunch of different pieces, and a chunk of it eventually ends up paying out the bettors
nubbins`: i guess hanbot plays so much diablo and loses so much bet money that doing the books once a month is an unbearable burden
nubbins`: PeterL there were a handful of double-month reports late last year too
nubbins`: quite the kingdom
mircea_popescu: PeterL here's the thing : in my scrollback you appear as engaged in a lengthy monologue which twice now highlighted me. are you going to take a break on your own or do i have to ignore you for a while ?
mircea_popescu: "As for requirement [4], my sofa may have bugs, such as mites, spiders, or maybe even fleas. However, I have found no evidence on the web that such invertebrates have the power to cause theft of anything, much less theft of digital assets on other sidechains."
fluffypony: no, it's a review of the Bitcoin Sidechains whitepaper
PeterL: but there should still be a statement for february, even if it just a signed statement "no bets made or resolved in February"
nubbins`: perhaps the manager should be revised
PeterL: perhaps the betting strategy should be revised?
nubbins`: yeah, nothing in feb. guess it was getting in the way of diablo
nubbins`: i guess the bet money didn't go out.
nubbins`: it's just buried in the "assets" section instead of "in/out"
nubbins`: oh, wait, sorry, there it is.
jurov: she publishes that on thewhet.net
nubbins`: PeterL: not only that, but the information contained in the post you linked just doesn't appear in the F.MPIF jan financials
assbot: Logged on 08-03-2016 18:50:50; mats: the drama continues
nubbins`: protip: there are none
PeterL: mpif is run by mircea_popescu, hanbot only does the throwing coins at bitbet part
mats: the drama continues
nubbins`: also, your fief (F.MPIF) went into hibernation only 6 months after you made it to the lordship list. not a great showing by any measure.
nubbins`: "being a lord is not an empty honor, but the honor of recognition, by your peers, for a useful purpose. If you aren't doing anything you broadly speaking can't be one, and if you are one it is upon you to show up in court and help settle matters (and in the process help the other lords understand you and predict your future moves)"
assbot: The Lordship list, third year. on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/24OPOMi )
nubbins`: hey hanbot : http://trilema.com/2016/the-lordship-list-third-year/#selection-1025.15-1029.267
nubbins`: and there's one more talking head floating around here on mp's side
nubbins`: consider that MP has enough money to pay alf double current salary for next decade, cardano could be out in the world, but chooses not to
nubbins`: under the illusion that it's for some greater good.
nubbins`: <+asciilifeform>nubbins`: do you think it would have made a difference to me, if i had been paid $12k ? <<< i'm not saying you should have taken the same amount of $$ for running s.nsa as i should have for a dozen hours' work.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: variable. but there is a boojum! typically you have to sign 'noncompete' to get the severance. and you have to be sacked, can't leave on own free will. and the sacking can't be 'for cause', etc, etc.
asciilifeform: and also try to understand mircea_popescu's very valid observation re: how turning people into salarymen lowers them into pederasty.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what's severances like these days, for non-monkey non-management sorta jobs ? is it true, ibm offer ~what everyone really gets, coupla k's an a lolipop ?
nubbins`: so got $12k bezzlars worth of btc for the actual work and a fat stock warrant for free
nubbins`: hanbot they wouldn't have you
nubbins`: have you seen the financials?
nubbins`: i'm fighting for the side of logic and reason
asciilifeform: nubbins`: i don't even have a dog in the fight, understand this.
nubbins`: and then i made mp angry
nubbins`: the guy said that if i made mp angry, mp would dig in his heels and not change mind no matter what.
mircea_popescu: so i've been looking for some sort of color revolution pronz to go with this derpy maidan thing, and the best i could find is i guess http://40.media.tumblr.com/9e888de5dbac8d7017d4e4af24cf0fe9/tumblr_meti8qPtdL1qlne6uo1_1280.jpg
nubbins`: i am guessing that kako is furiously fighting this fire behind the scenes
nubbins`: "i was not even aware of any of it" vs 3.2 (d)'s text: "All decisions with regards to any aspect of BitBet ... will require unanimous agreement of all the representatives of BitBet."
nubbins`: sure. in the meantime, i'll point out that he's had ample opportunity to sign the financials
nubbins`: so then?
asciilifeform: so then.
asciilifeform: rather than play 'telephone'
nubbins`: but, fuck mp, so the humiliation proceeded
asciilifeform: nubbins`: at least try leaving the joystick attached.
nubbins`: but because i went on the offensive, mircea_popescu simply cannot back down.
nubbins`: the funny thing about all of this is that if i'd approached the sitation with humbleness and humility, the report would already be changed
asciilifeform: nubbins`: dead pilots in the '30s-'40s were sometimes found with the control joystick literally torn from its moorings. they pulled against jammed flight surfaces and physically destroyed the stick. it did not help.
mircea_popescu: because apparently i don't know how the world works, and haven't properly groked the memo about how "reality is enacted by convention" or somesuch.
mircea_popescu: it broke down, because by now social consensus is the principal guide for people. and so... the trier of fact established some sort of social consensus and was very surprised when my reaction was to simply disolve it.
mircea_popescu: this system worked more or less for a while, which is to say up to maybe the 1920s. back then people had some sort of relation to reality.
nubbins`: remember the massive money-losing loophole?
nubbins`: the rota was a brutal flop too
mircea_popescu: traditionally, in the common law at least, the jury is the trier of fact ; with the judge establishing the legal meaning of those facts.
mircea_popescu: at that point, i was trying to get a court system off the ground, similarly with random people as judges.
mircea_popescu: the matter to be resolved exactly one of two ways : fixing the report or fixing the wot.
nubbins`: looky: if anyone feels up to the task, they can take the lordship list and put each member's past accomplishments and current works under their name. maybe see once and for all who cuts the mustard and who cuts the cheese.
assbot: The greatly anticipated BitBet (S.BBET) February 2016 Statement on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Ryzbug )
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2016/the-greatly-anticipated-bitbet-sbbet-february-2016-statement/#comment-116734 << check it out, moar impersonations ?
PeterL: mircea_popescu but clearly there is the expectation that people inside your WoT will say something if they think your report is wrong
mircea_popescu: if the people who matter think anything of it, it may see the life of day. if not... a well.
mircea_popescu: the beauty of the internet generally is that otherwise unemployable bits of social refuse can offer their unsolicited takes on things.
nubbins`: mircea_popescu's statements about the bar raising seem to directly back up my assertion that hanbot needs to get the heave-ho.
asciilifeform: nubbins`: as you know, i very frequently disagree with him. you could prolly make a whole book of these.
mircea_popescu: as time goes on, the bar raises, and many/most/whatever can't cope.
PeterL: <asciilifeform> nubbins` also seems to be arguing that he has some sort of vote in how bbet is run ? << the beauty of publicly published financials is that we can call out things we thing are misrepresented
mircea_popescu: yes, lordlist was seeded, like everything else (bitcoin included) with very low effort , and very low bars, which is how people like nubbins made it in. this is both fine and the right thing.
mircea_popescu: problems getting out of the fiat garbage.
mircea_popescu: but by and large, the problem seems to be that either throgh simple immersion, or sheer intellectual laziness, or a mix or whatever, lots and lots of people have SERIOIS
mircea_popescu: jurov plox to quote rather than imagine. this imagination hasn't served you well in the past, won't start to at any point.
nubbins`: shinohai what's that, a joke? spamming the chan with a video about spam?
jurov: lel can i imagine how would hanbot go if nefario, inaba or anyone billed such "expenses" to their shareholders
nubbins`: PeterL that's your perogative. i would keep them.
PeterL: as a lucky bettor, I would be willing to refund the extra winnings, minus a "processing fee"
nubbins`: PeterL i would, yes. mp would not expect the lucky bettors to refund him.
mircea_popescu: really... could we conduct the nutso convention on tardstalk, reddit or whatever usual venue ?
PeterL: <nubbins`> if i send the light company $100 cash in the mail because i think my employer is behind on their bills, but it turns out they weren't and everything was just fine, i wouldn't expect my employer to give my $100 back. << you would expect the power company to refund you
asciilifeform: and hey there's mircea_popescu .
PeterL: I would say getting the bets paid is not worth 17 btc
nubbins`: danielpbarron again, not interested in your hypotheticals
PeterL: if the cost is worth the reputation of bitbet paying out thier winnings, then he should pay it
nubbins`: danielpbarron you're inventing hypothetical situations and saying "apparently this'd be fraud"
nubbins`: or if hanbot contributed anything useful to the realm
PeterL: danielpbarron we would be asking him to talk to a miner and have the txn included in a block
nubbins`: i'm curious what would be the argument if mp had a vagina
nubbins`: if i send the light company $100 cash in the mail because i think my employer is behind on their bills, but it turns out they weren't and everything was just fine, i wouldn't expect my employer to give my $100 back.
PeterL: he did have a loan from MPIF in the past (to cover a previous mistake), so bitbet having a loan has precedence
ben_vouspes: PeterL: ah, that's simple! traders get fired as soon as they mean revert.
trinque: "I unilaterally decided to loan the company X amount emergency funds to keep the lights on." << this is not unheard of, if the officer who made the decision had the power to do so
PeterL: think of it this way: guy makes a bad investment and loses money for his firm, does he have to personally repay it or does the company take the loss?
nubbins`: PeterL the thing about stupid mistakes is that if you realize they've happened and you DON'T CORRECT THEM, they turn into fraud.
trinque: insofar as an agreement between the owners defines such things
PeterL: for the record, I view it as a stupid mistake on mp's part, not fraud, so I am fine with having sold my shares I will just let things be
nubbins`: ben_vulpes if you pay the pizza guy with your own money, EVEN IF YOU'RE AT WORK, you don't get to automatically bill work for the pizza.
jurov: and the picture is, that some people think that bitbet's funds are at full disposal of mircea_popescu and he can send zerofee tx and all is okay... while coinbr, somehow can not, because "broker"?
ben_vulpes: nubbins`: and what precisely the claim's root? that mircea_popescu paid twice? that the funds were his and the loan a breach of contract?
jurov: ben_vulpes: mpex withdrawals don't come into picture, my withdrawals would, if i sent them zerofee
PeterL: danielpbarron if mircea_popescu had sent the funds to his wallet and spent them on hookers and blow, would that count as fraud or would you let him asses that as "the cost of doing business"?
nubbins`: everything else is a discussion surrounding that, or idiots telling adults not to have the discussion
nubbins`: whether mp committed fraud (intentional or unintentional)
nubbins`: danielpbarron you're steadfastly dodging the point that MP's fraudulent math is the issue. IDGAF if it's bbet or him and vexual playing dice
PeterL: danielpbarron they have an expectation that their funds will be used with fiduciary integrity
nubbins`: ^ as admin of CoinBr, the current situation directly affects jurov. maybe that's why jurov and kako are the only ones not 100% complicit in this scheme
jurov: being loud at the forum
trinque: what is the else?
nubbins`: don't feel like it. what's with all the imperatives? nobody to boss around in the trailer park?
nubbins`: jurov a blessing from the king will do that.
trinque: define fraud in the context of an unregistered corporation, and what the recourse shall be under no laws which define fraud?
nubbins`: what i do give a shit about is people owning up to their mistakes
PeterL: you could short the stock?
asciilifeform: and if i did, the stock doesn't even vote.
trinque: there's a difference between offending someone with the truth as a matter of tactics, and doing it to the exclusion of sense
nubbins`: for emphasis: Pros don't give a shit, it's the clueless twits and assorted pretenders that do.
nubbins`: Professional does not imply any restriction of form.ii You are free to be as offensive, annoying, disparaging, crass, crude or indecorous you feel the need or inclination to be. This includes any and all comments that in other, non-professional venues may be regarded as racist, sexist, chauvinist, fascist or whatever else. Pros don't give a shit, it's the clueless twits and assorted pretenders that do.
nubbins`: asciilifeform do you disagree that mp's corrosive attitude is a Bad Thing and subtracts from otherwise good ___?
asciilifeform: 'rabbling' is a Bad Thing and subtracts from otherwise good argument.
asciilifeform: nubbins`: do you understand the essence of what mircea_popescu said to you ? about 'rabble rousing' ?
nubbins`: trinque that's not the question
trinque: companies make errors that cost money, either due to their own mistakes or externalities; that's life
nubbins`: you'd make a better profit bumming change outside the metro
nubbins`: look at the monthly statements
trinque: faced with "shut bitbet down" or "gift bitbet the funds to keep running" or "loan them", what's the right thing to do?
nubbins`: danielpbarron that was probably all of the non-mp investors leaving.
asciilifeform: i could see a ' bbet shareholders believe that bbet is mismanaged ' angle, but ~it is THEIR business~ and not mine, and their one option is to get off the bus, as per the articles.
asciilifeform: so i do not see the ' mircea_popescu is cheating people ' angle.
nubbins`: i still believe it was so, in the absence of conflicting evidence
asciilifeform: this is the part where i part from nubbins`'s interp.
asciilifeform: nubbins`: i do not agree that the 17 was 'personal expense.'
jurov: asciilifeform: the price fell by 40% last month
nubbins`: now there's a logical leap
nubbins`: danielpbarron seems to think that one cannot point out fraud if the fraudster is party to the fraud
nubbins`: so it's okay to commit fraud, as long as the business you're defrauding is on your exchange?
PeterL: so the only recourse shareholders have is to sell if they disagree with his decisions, maybe they could have brought suit for negligence before the rota when that was a thing?
nubbins`: danielpbarron the logic doesn't follow, please explain showing your workings?
nubbins`: the listing agreement clearly states that at any time MP wishes, he can liquidate S.BBET via MPEx
jurov: asciilifeform: there's the simple question, if sending zerofee tx is acting "in good faith", that #b-a forum could answer
nubbins`: asciilifeform agreed, he has held all the cards since day 1.
asciilifeform: and from my reading of the listing article, it appears to very clearly imply that it is mircea_popescu's thing and he can take the ball and go home, etc.
asciilifeform: nubbins`: let's see if we can agree re: what the dispute is properly about
nubbins`: asciilifeform kako's mouth is shut for the time being
trinque: as for my perspective, the tools either work or they don't. the WoT, deedbot, forum, so on, sorts itself or doesn't.
asciilifeform: nubbins`: did kako sign the bbet-is-sad letter ?
nubbins`: <+asciilifeform>nubbins`: it is difficult to have a useful discussion in the midst of 'your mother eats electric eeels. -- no YOUR mother. .. etc' << agreed, which is why i found hanbot's vulgarity very disheartening; she only jumped into the conversation to insult and vexate. mp's bringing my wife into it was a ludicrous response to me accusing him of fraud. my wife's not in the picture.