asciilifeform: nubbins`: then irreconcilably different premises, aha, and i have no moar wordz.
nubbins`: you believe the two entities to be one
nubbins`: which is why we're talking past each other
asciilifeform: if i promise that you will be 100btc richer tomorrow, and i choose to pay you by dropping it from an airplane into your chimney, so long as no one else contests that it was i who dropped - the debt is paid.
asciilifeform: jurov: this is a leap into neverneverland. but operating using the ORIGINAL premise of bbet, where coin is owed to ADDRESS, is not.
PeterL: bitcoin is fungible, it does not matter to the recipient where it came from
jurov: asciilifeform: really, since bitcoin makes whole wallets analyzable, why not apply the blame to whole wallet? moar justice!!!
PeterL: just hypothetical trying to understand your position
PeterL: nubbins` what if MP was travelling when bet resolves, pays somebody to send txn to bet winners, do those payments not count because they don't come directly from bbet wallet?
nubbins`: but apparently that's off the table
jurov: "assign credit/debt to addresses" is kinda slippery slope, why not go beyond it and try to analyze and put together addresses in wallets and assign credit/debt to these?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: though oddly enough he was arguing your side of the medal !
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: you can safely skip the preceding thread, it is a nubsism
kakobrekla: i find the distinction quite irrelevant
asciilifeform: either one.
asciilifeform: nubbins`: i see what you did there.
nubbins`: then, later, bbet-addr.
asciilifeform: and not from imaginary animals sitting at the controls.
nubbins`: hence why in all the stock warrants it says specifically that the entity will not administer blah blah between third parties
kakobrekla: asciilifeform but that also makes it clear who is to blame for bbet shutdown. and not its not the bettors who got two payments.
nubbins`: asciilifeform not impossible, no. the windfall recipients know who owned each parcel of funds
assbot: Logged on 23-03-2016 18:13:33; asciilifeform: these are supposed to be ~people~
kakobrekla: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-03-2016#1438921 < or to put it in another way 'bitcoin is an inanimate fucking object'
asciilifeform: nubbins`: the separate-entities thing
asciilifeform: nubbins`: your contention is that it was impossible for the windfall recipients to return it ?
PeterL: but if I return this doublespend, is it still going to be taken out of my other bets the site is holding?
nubbins`: this is the crux of why alf's wrong here
nubbins`: despite mp's insistence to the contrary.
kakobrekla: the originator would not necessarily show up in donations and not sure if anyone would notice.
PeterL: <asciilifeform> but if any of them had seen it fit to return so much as one satoshi of the doublesend - i assume mircea_popescu, kakobrekla, or davout would have mentioned. << If I did want to return part of doublespend, where would I send it and be sure MP does not just pocket it?
asciilifeform: he might. but only after i pay the 100.
kakobrekla: the prepayment is separate issue here
asciilifeform: you can't be a 'people' when you feel like it, and then a 'mechanism' when it suits you.
asciilifeform: whereas if we paint them as 'people,' they then had a ~choice~ re: what to do with the coin.
asciilifeform: because they were paid. just slightly earlier than ought to have been.
asciilifeform: if we can have them be just addresses, the obligation was to ADDRESSES and is SATISFIED
kakobrekla: i thought they were just addresses
asciilifeform: these are supposed to be ~people~
kakobrekla: anyway, care to poke a hole in the rm -rf case?
asciilifeform: but if any of them had seen it fit to return so much as one satoshi of the doublesend - i assume mircea_popescu, kakobrekla, or davout would have mentioned.
asciilifeform: the comments - could all be fictions, yes.
asciilifeform: the beneficiary addr and the bet amount are literally the ~only~ things we know for certain about them.
asciilifeform: they betted by transmitting a tx.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: you neither know, nor need to.
ben_vulpes: moreover how does one know that any commenter on bitbet is a bettor? are they 'signing' things with the appropriate privkeys now?
asciilifeform: e.g., tearing apart jungle temple, burying the remains - in shit, banana peels.
kakobrekla: if mp would rm -rf private keys, his linux distro would be the murderer?
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: now credits the howling monkeys outside of the wot with accomplishing things?
asciilifeform: i can't see how the scumbags who pocketed the doublespend and then whined about bet payout delay, are not accomplices in the murder of bbet.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: see thread. bbet is already doing many 'other things', from which there is no escape.
ben_vulpes: eerily reminiscient of the commerce clause. "in addition to these explicit terms in our favor, we may decide in the future to do other things."
asciilifeform: they were PAID.
ben_vulpes: kakobrekla: nowhere in there does it say "if we overpay and can identify the people to whom we overpaid, we'll clawback funds from those addresses."
asciilifeform: so what then does ben_vulpes give as argument re why the double-send should not count against the obligations remaining ?
asciilifeform: and to try to infer or posit people or whatnot 'behind' the keys, is to introduce chess pieces to a card game
asciilifeform: the only moral entities for whatever purpose.
kakobrekla: from the first paragraph of the bb faq: The beneficiary address is never changed under any circumstances. Please make sure you own it!
asciilifeform: and given that the only signatures establishing the obligation were btc tx-en, that is to whom it owed.
asciilifeform: whatever repayment obligation bbet has to anyone at all, it was and remains to ADDRESSES, not to 'people', 'persons', or whatever other old world claptrap
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: folks who share privkeys create schizo synthetic monsters, a la gox, and are hostis humani generis.
assbot: Logged on 23-03-2016 14:58:19; asciilifeform: if meatbags were abusing bitcoin by sharing a private key, they earned their hell.
ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-03-2016#1438613 << on the n+1 thread, consider also the broker, asciilifeform.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes go through the log, it's argued.
assbot: Logged on 23-03-2016 09:34:25; davout: more generally, it seems an important thing to me that bettor claims should be adjusted by the existence of a a previous double-payout, if any
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Well the stop drinking thing was a rather substantive change in the usual. I think reduced the N in my SNR, but I'm not entirely sure.
BingoBoingo: To discover what the usual is you have to go to the logs, but not before the end of October, because around that time the usual changed
BingoBoingo: mrottenkolber: Oh, the usual
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> in other lulz, i was looking at 'google map' near $rupturefarm, and found a 'metaphysical chapel.' << I'll have you know I took 500 level metaphysical classes in University
asciilifeform: first i might eat at the 'cafe saigon'
asciilifeform: one of these days!
asciilifeform: in other lulz, i was looking at 'google map' near $rupturefarm, and found a 'metaphysical chapel.'
mircea_popescu: i thought the consensus was this reactor should have fired a year ago or w/e.
asciilifeform: then reactor fire next week !111
assbot: Logged on 23-03-2016 12:29:04; asciilifeform: and yes, they had no obligation to send it back, etc. but if they had, there would be no reactor fire, and a still-operating bbet. that isn't about to be auctioned off to spammerz.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-03-2016#1438393 << ftr i'm not too sold on this sort of argument. if only the bullet hadn't hit your beloved franz ... then what ? wouldn't have been a war ? he wouldn't have been a man, or a soldier ?
asciilifeform: what i meant was, whatever the bettors end up getting, will be an output of human caprice.
mircea_popescu: cup a cunt in the left, pick some ~actual numbers~ in the right, watch your eyebrows spin.
mircea_popescu: we got the women for heat, makes a fine engine.
mircea_popescu: no, we like them specifically because cold.
asciilifeform: but afaik we like cold equations because they are SOLID and PREDICTABLE, not because cold.
asciilifeform: briefly back to mega-thread, i ~very much see the appeal~ of mircea_popescu's 'cold equations, motherfuckers!' angle.
davout: btw, is mircea_popescu in a position to transfer the bitbet.us domain?
mircea_popescu: bum of the town falls asleep drunk on railroad. steam engine comes and thrashes him thoroughly.
mircea_popescu: you know the samovar joke ?
mircea_popescu: fuck or get off the bitch, this trying is giving me hypertension.
mircea_popescu: i recommend blindness, because i fucking well aren't going to be supplying all the candles now required or in the future needed to look in all possible or conceivable dark crevices ; nor do i see who ever could.
asciilifeform: i recommend - the communists.
asciilifeform: i however see the notion of not fucking-with-a-hammer those malodorous thieving swine who silently kept the windfall and LEANED ON THE GROUP, as ultimately very expensive.
mircea_popescu: so then.
asciilifeform: tomorrow i trip over a cable, fall on a button, accidentally fire pistol, the bullet hits another button, sends him 90 btc.
asciilifeform: closing at the cost of tearing a new (qm / gr) gash
asciilifeform: which is to say, we find ways to live with the wound
assbot: Logged on 23-03-2016 15:37:30; mircea_popescu: the result is that your dream diverges from reality by that much, and it's not clear breaches OF THAT NATURE can ever be healed.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-03-2016#1438750 << they are healed the way the demolition of newtonian mechanics was 'healed'
asciilifeform: the tragedy was precisely in the circumstances which produced the scalpel hand. not in who will be cut, that is secondary.
asciilifeform: but it will cut how it wants, and it not mathematically deterministic/predictable, and will answer to no one.
mircea_popescu: the result is that your dream diverges from reality by that much, and it's not clear breaches OF THAT NATURE can ever be healed.
mircea_popescu: the cold truth of the matter being, of course, that bitcoin's an imponerable that obviously can't be cut. but when you, the sleeping butterfly that dreams himself lao tzi, in your dream believe to have cut into it,
mircea_popescu: what if i come to the kitchen one morning and discover girl cooking burned... the color blue.
asciilifeform: that is why there is no happy ending to this tale.
asciilifeform: when there is a fella with a scalpel, you ~already~ made a small visa.
mircea_popescu: if you're going to drop the bitcoin scalar in favour of a bitcoin-justice vector, there is really no fucking point to even bother, just visa.
asciilifeform: and if there is a colour, i point to it.
mircea_popescu: it's anathema.
asciilifeform: at least after mircea_popescu made public the tx ids.
mircea_popescu: truly, communism was built in the roman islae.
mircea_popescu: remarkably, i had found this in the states, you know, people from the generation that "anti american activities", ie, still had a fighting bone in their body, WOULD engage in this patently insane behaviour.
asciilifeform: not the roulette, i mean
asciilifeform: see also the proverbial 'ты умри сегодня а я завтра'.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: iirc the christians called it 'sloth'
trinque: I think this apt building is communist for having shut off my water today to fix some pipes elsewhere in the building.
mircea_popescu: is the man who doesn't drive across town to buy milk a dime a gallon cheaper a communist ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform would you say a man is a communist who goes to the casino every weekend and plays either blackjack or roulette as he feels like it that day, because really, the house edge is not the same ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform again - attempting to interpose yourself between the perceptibles and sophia is a very expensive and ultimately self destructive desire.
mircea_popescu: to put the matter bluntly : is it communism to round ?
asciilifeform: but the bettors who kept their windfall and then whined about being 'cheated', they are plainly scum and the wrath of ragnarok is theirs to be suffered ~first~ by any reasonable justice, imho.
asciilifeform: again, this is far from my planet, i cannot rightfully propose to judge the sultan.
mircea_popescu: (and the mythical rashid that wasn't - did do this.)
mircea_popescu: but note that the sultan was an idiot.
asciilifeform: but it is not my place to tell mircea_popescu (or davout , who in this case is holding the scalpel ) exactly how.
mircea_popescu: no, that's how you dispose of the MATTER once you disposed of the communism charge on the side of "yep, s oit is"
asciilifeform: you do it by picking up the sword and saying 'eh no you buggers ain't equal'
mircea_popescu: but the problem remains, i have nfi how to dispose of the communism charge in that place.
asciilifeform: take a stand. it is one of the things i always appreciated about mircea_popescu !11
asciilifeform: but you PUSH the pencil.
mircea_popescu: so then how do you discern when another's crossed the pole, which practically speaking is an event horizon ?
asciilifeform: i suppose i am then a soldier.
asciilifeform: being a lord, as i see it, is not about balancing pencils on their points, but pushing the pencil in your CHOSEN direction and ~standing by~ the decision for the rest of your life.
asciilifeform: straddling the asymptote.
asciilifeform: it is your mathematical 'pole' from 2 days ago
asciilifeform: what's the threshhold for jumping off cliff ? is it when you splat? when you're in freefall? when you stop the car? when brushing your teeth that morning, thinking 'cliff..' ???
mircea_popescu: so what's the threshold ?
asciilifeform: if we seal ourselves in a cave and take turns eating own limbs, THEN - yes.
asciilifeform: for the evening.
mircea_popescu: if you go eating together, is it communism if you go wherever you all agree to go ?
mircea_popescu: i think this angle is interesting and should be pursued. so asciilifeform : do you suppose that the harem is intrinsically communist, if and in that the women are equals ?
asciilifeform: (the latter, a mythical animal)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: well these are connected, no ?
asciilifeform: mathematically - easiest. etc.
assbot: Logged on 23-03-2016 15:03:51; mircea_popescu: "the simplest"
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-03-2016#1438635 << one of the ways we get komyooonisms is that 'divide it all among the scum equally' is 'THE SIMPLEST' algo in the world.
asciilifeform: like it fell upon the scum
asciilifeform: it is even possible that coin will fall from the sky into the right addr and make it moot...
mircea_popescu: well, it is also possible bitbet sells well and makes the issue moot.
mircea_popescu: "the simplest"
asciilifeform: like car with the wheels off.
asciilifeform: bbet is functioning in what we call in the civilized world 'нештатный режим'
mircea_popescu: there's something to this.
asciilifeform: because the damn thing br0k3.
asciilifeform: they already will get a ??? --> something paid according to some rules they can't know
assbot: Logged on 23-03-2016 14:06:24; mircea_popescu: anyway, take it from a software design perspective. you are proposing to change the stateless parser (bet accepted) -> (bet resolved) -> (bet paid out) into a stateful and undefined (bet accepted) -> (bet resolved) -> (???) -> (some thing paid according to some rules you can't know)
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-03-2016#1438527 << i can see this. but we got there already, are already inserted on that stake, regardless of what happens, because the bettors ~will~ get a haircut
mircea_popescu: no, your "from my perch, they suck ~equally" is no argument, just color.
mircea_popescu: and so they do.
asciilifeform: from my perch, they suck ~equally.
asciilifeform: and introducing 'what if there were some agreement re: n+1th etc' is the place where unwarranted assumptions are made
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform see, this is how professional life goes. you are paid well to sit in silence in a room and pick the right thread under a microscope ; i am paid even better to sit in the din of the market and pick the right thread with bare eyes.
assbot: Logged on 23-03-2016 14:01:40; solrodar: if any obligation exists between bitbet and a bettor, the bettor is identified by his key and nothing more
assbot: Logged on 23-03-2016 13:56:37; mircea_popescu: fine, if you absolutely must : suppose owner made an agreement with a third party that the nth txn goes to x and the nth+1 goes to y. are they now bound to revise their agreements on the basis of how you may wish to liberally reinterpret the protocol ?
mircea_popescu: and in the interest of not fucking up everyhing in one fell swoop of well meaning idiocy, "deserve"'d better not enter into it.
nubbins`: asciilifeform the 13.37 haircut is baked into the deal, i don't think any other haircuts are?
asciilifeform: i would like to smoke the necessary dope to see mircea_popescu's pov here, where the scum who got paid twice had the temerity to whine about delayed payouts while sitting on their unearned windfall, but then somehow deserve to be paid a THIRD TIME
mircea_popescu: (and if anyone's unfamiliar with the hunchback god, plox to take a break and read up on teh gnosis. it'll be good for you.)
mircea_popescu: will there be judgement day, when all there is is dark, or will there be "communism" aka "christianity" aka a hunchback god tries to create a world just like he's seen in his sane, healthy brother's hands ?
mircea_popescu: you got the parts switched tho!
asciilifeform: unless i misarithmetize catastrophically, davout is stuck with giving the bettors a haircut. question is ~which~. will there be 'communism', where they all bleed equally? or 'judgement day', when the scumbags bleed first.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not the issue. the issue is, can you assume or can't you assume. and the result is you can't assume.
davout: the receiver was already burdened with choice, since he has to certify, or not, claims
mircea_popescu: he can do whatever the fuck he pleases.
asciilifeform: you can only create a synthetic monster with split-personality syndrome!
assbot: Logged on 23-03-2016 13:51:32; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-03-2016#1438364 << and you're going to ask the fellow to submit proof that he didn't... sell the address ? or etc ?
asciilifeform: is mircea_popescu drinking on the job?!??!!
assbot: Logged on 23-03-2016 12:03:12; BingoBoingo: Aha, I knew it would happen, but I didn't know it would happen this early. The reciever is now burdened with CHOICE.
solrodar: you know, a lot of your metaphors are stupid but that one almost reaches the level of a zen koan
mircea_popescu: lol k. what you're doing is roughly equivalent to coming into my house, attempting to give a name to one of my women and then proposing to exchange her for your own of the same name. ty but...
mircea_popescu: it is the actual threshold of maturity, when the agent comprehends that some things must be done because of themselves and irrespective of their will. usually this discovery came to young people who were in love - but society has meanwhile "progressed" past that.
assbot: Logged on 23-03-2016 14:20:36; mircea_popescu: solrodar there's no bitcoin precedent of "unjust enrichment", and if it is introduced it applies first of all to all miners.
solrodar: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-03-2016#1438533 << there was no precedent for liquidation either, yet you had quite specific ideas about how it should be done
davout: maltova and chunks of cloth not so much... desire to cheer others up, i'd say why not
mircea_popescu: PeterL what is the correct way of cheering your mother up with a tin of maltova and and a chunk of cloth ?
mircea_popescu: they're meaningful to us, if risible ; we're not meaningful nor can be rendered meaningful for them.
solrodar: if you reject all notions of justice then this entire liquidation thing becomes meaningless
mircea_popescu: that it seems justified to you may make a difference when you're king of the world and can promise me to appoint all judges forevermore to comply with your notions.
mircea_popescu: much like the tmsr license, bitcoin is deliberately constructed a certain way to destroy fiat notions of this world, not to maintain them nor to permit their maintenance.
mircea_popescu: solrodar there's no bitcoin precedent of "unjust enrichment", and if it is introduced it applies first of all to all miners.
nubbins`: <+solrodar>since the sender never intended to transfer ownership to that person <<< mp didn't intend to transfer ownership of the coins involved in a tx that he sent?
solrodar: mircea_popescu: the bettors entered a contract with bitbet, then you, acting on bitbet's behalf, paid them too much by mistake. Even if there's no property in bitcoin, doesn't the existence of that contract allow you to introduce an argument of unjust enrichment?
mircea_popescu: and for that matter, are you going to pay out of pocket for the costs anyone and everyone incurs to adapt to this model, like nsa via gavin paid (to their own people) for their 2013 debacle ?
mircea_popescu: anyway, take it from a software design perspective. you are proposing to change the stateless parser (bet accepted) -> (bet resolved) -> (bet paid out) into a stateful and undefined (bet accepted) -> (bet resolved) -> (???) -> (some thing paid according to some rules you can't know)
assbot: Logged on 07-01-2016 00:00:47; jurov: input is a reference to an output from a previous transaction. output is: a hash of a previous transaction + Index of the specific output in the referenced transaction.
mircea_popescu: funny how everything is in the fucking log. dja recall it davout ?
mircea_popescu: this is an eery rehash of the earlier thing re "bitcoin is addresses / no it's txn" where jurov massacred me.
davout: bettor's an address though, and claims are bound to addresses, not people, are they?
mircea_popescu: if you are going to make other determinations than who won a bet, might as well put a 50% tax on the richest 10% or w/e the french fashion is these days.
solrodar: if any obligation exists between bitbet and a bettor, the bettor is identified by his key and nothing more
mircea_popescu: you introduced it, really. but i restated the issue more formally and without reference to it.
davout: mircea_popescu: you haven't provided any support for the notion of "a fellow" that you introduced, or did i miss it?
mircea_popescu: certainly not after the fact.
solrodar: mircea_popescu: aren't you the one that always argues that there are no people, only keys? In which case there's nothing wrong with recovering money from keys. If the key is controlled by multiple people, that's their problem.
mircea_popescu: which is, seal things in the past in such a way they aren't revisable in the future.
mircea_popescu: this is the ESSENCE of powerrangering.
mircea_popescu: fine, if you absolutely must : suppose owner made an agreement with a third party that the nth txn goes to x and the nth+1 goes to y. are they now bound to revise their agreements on the basis of how you may wish to liberally reinterpret the protocol ?
mircea_popescu: davout i am not proposing anything. you are proposing to introduce some assumptions, which seem ridiculous on the face, and are invited to support them.
davout: the moment you sell a private key it ceases to be private, and therefore ceases to be a private key
assbot: Logged on 23-03-2016 13:51:32; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-03-2016#1438364 << and you're going to ask the fellow to submit proof that he didn't... sell the address ? or etc ?
davout: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-03-2016#1438489 <<< i'd argue the notion of "a fellow" is not relevant in this context on one hand, are you also seriously proposing that "selling a private key" is even possible?
solrodar: so we say mircea_popescu controlled a large quantity of bitcoin, and had agreed to consider a certain quantity of it the property of bitbet, but that concept of property does not go beyond any agreement which may have existed between him and bitbet?
mircea_popescu: but other than that - nobody has any title over any bitcoin nor could anyone acquire any title over any bitcoin.
PeterL: that is the whole point of bitcoin, to definitively establish who owns it at all times!
mircea_popescu: solrodar no, because while the dog might be your dog, bitcoin may not actually be your bitcoin.