BingoBoingo: 81 minutes into the game, Uruguay scored. Notification came via increase in ambient noise.
asciilifeform: trinque: i used not long ago a recent huawei lappy. same irons as top-of-line crapple, 1/3 the cost, and 10x less fan whine.
trinque: this is good for the death of IP
trinque: epic, literally going to fasttrack "IP theft" ~from~ the chinese. Huehue Corp must have good shit.
BingoBoingo: Note the "paro general de 24 horas" is scheduled to cover a full day's hangover after today's Uruguay-Chile futbol appointment
BingoBoingo: So with the Party Internal elections coming up Sunday, guess what totally not a campaign event the local Unions are holding tomorrow... A Work Stoppage!
asciilifeform: in the flagship branch, it comes into play as base case when 8 or fewer words in multiplicand
asciilifeform: ( properly speaking, comba aint even a mult algo in the usual mathematical sense, but merely a 'sideways' restatement of the traditional schoolboy O(n^2) mult algo to behave smoother on pc and other irons where cache is in play )
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: i 99% expect it ~will~ get snipped from the asm branch.
asciilifeform: for the base case -- entirely possib
asciilifeform: bvt: what i meant is, the optimal asmistic base case is not necessarily comba. could be 'micro' karatsuba, or even straight schoolbook mul. for so long as asm.
bvt: i agree. i played a bit with the code, arrived at slightly cleaner (and sub-1% faster) code for multiplication, seems that the performance is close to the hw limit (at least at 32 Indices Comba-Karatsuba threshold)
asciilifeform: so, entirely useless for the given problem, near as i can see
asciilifeform: bvt: afaik sse offers only the very same 64x64bit multiplier as ordinary x64.
asciilifeform: ( interestingly, this does ~not~ work out to a 'runs at effectively 1/30th the native clock', on acct of this effect. but i won't spoil this yet.)
asciilifeform: funnily enuff, i think that 12kB actually weighs less than the human-readable text i've shat into the log re subj !
asciilifeform: ( ftr there is not yet any support for 'artificial disks'. but the mmap'd ram image can be made persistent by setting the 'write' flag, and when running from ramdisk you get in effect actual disk. this imho suffices for some applications. )
a111: Logged on 2017-11-19 05:19 lobbes: Currently going down the headless-browser path ben_vulpes suggested. Looking into phantomjs atm, which seems like it could do the job. I have an old craptop I'm thinking of using as the proverbial 'public toilet' to house it on. (This is the same craptop I was planning to put a trb node on. I put a spanking-new ssd in there but then realized that the ethernet dun work anymore; wifi only. May be a good use for the thing to just be a turd server in
a111: Logged on 2019-06-04 00:51 asciilifeform: incidentally, i generate these by machine, and it takes about 3sec per. would have put it as a net-connected hopper thing aeons ago, BUT it of course uses a heathen render (there are no 'demonstrably electrically correct' pdf eaters, and i dun expect one to exist) and suffers from the obvious problem
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-23#1919694 << prolly i oughta elaborate. in case wasn't clear, i've a ~12kB x64 proggy that boots a mostly-stock linux 3.x kernel, with uart as only device. which means that applications like this are theoretically possible, when i get back to this subj.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: ty for the heads up
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-24#1919790 << old era. afaik no one yet knows even a theoretical cure for ye olde 'to build gnat, 1st find a working gnat' headache
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, i dunno... it was there
asciilifeform: meanwhile in heathendom, 'Canonical's decision to cease development of 32-bit libraries in Ubuntu 19.10 "eoan" means it won't support Steam gaming runtime and devs say the Wine compatibility layer for running Windows apps will be little use.'
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: i can't resist to ask, why went to oslo ? what's there, other than tomb of naggum ? ( i dun even know where it is, cannot help to either piss on it or to put flower )
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: you may be interested to know that my shell to dulap bumped after 132d. ( for no detectable reason, either on this end or the other )
diana_coman: meanwhile I'm trying to disentangle here the cs/ps mess and I'm scratching my head at various bits: the CS engine works everywhere with names (strings) as ids (i.e. there are FindX functions only with string param, not with some numeric id despite the fact that internally it DOES HAVE them ffs) BUT then in some places it keeps various hashmaps with numeric ids for "common strings"
mp_en_viaje: but yes, they're exactly the same thing : hanger ons, marginal shitholes where people wanna be polite and everyone to be equal
diana_coman: I have to admit I have a hard time doing argentina ~= norway mainly because of the whole south/north thing; that being said, from socialist pov sure, can very well be indeed.
diana_coman: i.e. not at airport I gather
diana_coman: some will queue for anything; and anyways, not sure if "piling for cabs" is much better otherwise (e.g. Rome) though indeed I can't quite see why would there be such a lack of cabs in Oslo
mp_en_viaje: imagine the insane cheek required to even print this spread
mp_en_viaje: the exchange offices are out and out scams, trading insane nonsense like 9.2 (while advertising 9.4) to buy and 10.5 to sell (their shitty local coin is about 9.6 irl)
mp_en_viaje: THEY ARE WAITING FOR CABS
mp_en_viaje: imagine this : i get out of the airport, and there is a queue, i kid you not 1k+ people long
diana_coman: mp_en_viaje: lolz, what does Norway/Oslo offer so much worse than all the rest?
lobbesbot: danielpbarron: The operation succeeded.
ave1: btw I've *not* used the ada core version as a starting point for about a year now
mod6: Anyway, if I could work around this issue, then I can make an ebuild that'll build ave1s stuff with this.
trinque: actually makes sense, I guess it means the libc wasn't found, but it's unclear when it happens
trinque: oddly the OS reports a missing libc as "file not found" when executing the bin that wants it
trinque: mod6: this is expected; they're linked with glibc
mod6: For completeness, this is what happens when you try to install AdaCore 2016 (binaries) on Cuntoo (keep in mind that the install actually does place the binaries in the expected places...): http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/vX16f/?raw=true
mod6: yeah, i think this was the issue.
mod6: If the thinking is that it ~can~ be built on cuntoo, I'd much prefer an ebuild that would do that dance indeed.
mod6: so I never was able to build the ave1 musltronic tools on cuntoo, because no working gnat, I just bundled them up after I built them on a gentoo machine that had a working AdaCore 2016.
mod6: hey, sorry for the delay.
trinque: another thought, might make sense to call this sys-devel/gcc-9999, so one might perma-satisfy w/e caltrops demand gcc of a particular (and always higher) version
mod6: Anyway, I'm only just getting started with these. If there are glaring mistakes or feedback otherwise, please write in.
mod6: With everything in the right place... (I even needed a '/var/db/repos/mod6/metadata' directory with one file in it, 'layout.conf', that contains one single line: masters = cuntoo) then I was able to run a `ebuild ave1_musltronic_tools_x86_64-20180924.ebuild clean manifest install merge` and end up with the extracted contents in '/ave1_musltronic_tools_x86_64-20180924'.
mod6: To make this work properly, I built all of the ave1 musltronic tools on a gentoo instance with a 2016 AdaCore GNAT, then bundled up all of the binaries myself, and placed 'em on mod6.net for testing purposes.
a111: Logged on 2016-10-04 15:36 asciilifeform: ACHTUNG, PANZERS! pc engines 'apu2' (the board with the intel nics - vs. 'apu1', with realtek) , turns out, is crippled, hdt probe barfs with it, the cpu is reputed to have a drm fuse set.
asciilifeform: another illustrative case, amd 2015 g-series, where debug contacts disabled w/out magic key
asciilifeform: in each case, ought to be said, required 100% demolition of 100% of the 'purportedly worx!!' liquishits
asciilifeform: another time, robot. took year+.
mp_en_viaje: and i STILL know as close as anything can be known as a matter of fact that the code's fundamentally fine, and some wrapper intermediary is spuriously fucking it up.
asciilifeform: ( spoiler: also demanded 'wine', and with in the end same result as mp's 3d card )
a111: Logged on 2019-06-20 13:13 mircea_popescu: well so let's see here : i can't play, because after sinking however many hours in chasing dependencies and fixing assorted if widely distributed breakage the end story is that "foss" has managed to really give the whole game away -- there is ONE chain, consisting of play on linux so-and-so using wine-so-and-so on ubuntu this-and-that, and you pray it works -- because if it doesn't work, THAT IS IT, "there was an error" li
asciilifeform: 2y ago asciilifeform had roughly same experience with an expensive and supposedly very spiffy chinese usb oscilloscope. purportedly 'worx under linux', but then went and bought an' tried...
mp_en_viaje: or so i thought at the time ; but maybe the forum really wanted to hear more about how literally nothing can be fucking compiled without rewriting some parts, etc
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-23#1919706 << for one reason or another, it's what ~always happens. INCLUDING in "works by itself" ubuntu, as i think i've recently documented beyond all fucking possible degree of intolerable tedium.
asciilifeform: ( in fact iirc it was bvt who said 'have you looked, there's none' and i did, and found none )
bvt: now, sse could theoretically help, but there is a question of whether sse operations are constant time (in each generation of intel cpus)
a111: Logged on 2019-06-23 21:34 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-23#1919680 << fwiw asciilifeform has not used 'portage' in year+ -- the heathen portage finally 100% broke then. ( 'updated' on the gentooist end, so that no longer agrees to build ~anything~ without 'new profile', and won't install 'new profile' because hard-contravenes asciilifeform's poetteringisms ban list... )
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-23#1919686 << pretty interesting. bvt : i'ma work through these when i finish with keccakism components
a111: Logged on 2019-06-23 18:00 mp_en_viaje: right. so portage might be the pipe that got you your galon of linux. but that is what you wanted -- not the faucet, but the galon.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-23#1919680 << fwiw asciilifeform has not used 'portage' in year+ -- the heathen portage finally 100% broke then. ( 'updated' on the gentooist end, so that no longer agrees to build ~anything~ without 'new profile', and won't install 'new profile' because hard-contravenes asciilifeform's poetteringisms ban list... )
a111: Logged on 2019-06-23 09:41 mircea_popescu: there's no rule you must publish the signed thing. you can publish 11 drafts before signing, what of it.
a111: Logged on 2019-06-23 06:44 mircea_popescu: here's the thing with this reading business : most things are read on the second pass.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-23#1919594 << can't speak for others, but often enuff asciilifeform needs 2-3 log passes to grasp $thread
a111: Logged on 2019-06-22 23:20 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-22#1919322 << one of the corps red hat bought and buried was arguably getting close.
a111: Logged on 2019-06-22 23:17 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-22#1919311 << i think this is running in the wrong direction. just more shit to break / require rubber bads / touching just so and etc.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-22#1919583 << asciilifeform doesn't publish products that require rubber bands. ( this is a double-edged sword, asciilifeform has large pile of items he does not consider publication-grade, and hasn't the resources to bring up to it, but can live with this )
a111: Logged on 2019-06-22 22:34 mircea_popescu: whereas implicit v-ism would be "all code is made one pile, then built once and linked, and that's it".
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-22#1919559 << the obv. problem is that in unixtardation land, to build certain proggies requite yet others to be already built.
mp_en_viaje: right. so portage might be the pipe that got you your galon of linux. but that is what you wanted -- not the faucet, but the galon.
a111: Logged on 2019-06-22 21:34 trinque: my intent here has been to stablize the workbench and then make a *hard* break with the whole stack
mp_en_viaje: what it does is, give some measure of anti-friability to the everchange.
mp_en_viaje: the point was to get it in a ~state~. something to start actual decrufting work from. portage itself is mostly a raft for navigating the phenomenology of fosstardation
trinque: the cumulative work on gentoo was wasted cycles if portage is undesired, as most of the work was around capturing portage in a given state
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-05-17#1914461 << this wasn't a throwaway comment, nor was it an insult to anybody. lords, or simply strapping dudes looking to score, better be holding coin at the end of the day.
mp_en_viaje: but is there absolutely no more to it ?
mp_en_viaje: obviously, on some level, there's only so many hours in the day, whether one works or doesn't, still there's a finite time.
mp_en_viaje: yes but look, is the idea here that for the past whatever, 4-5 months you have been ~so busy~ that not only you had no time to say things about your work on gentoo, but also somehow ended up isolated into yourself among sadnesses about how nobody reads and such ?
a111: Logged on 2019-06-23 06:55 mircea_popescu: and so no, what worries me isn't that http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-22#1919296 ; what worries me is htat the last item in http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=%22trinque.org%22 is from 2018, and that trinque.org doesn't load today like deedbot.org didn't load yest, when i wanted to check the helpfile and ended up loading it from archive.is ;
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-23#1919601 << hosted on the box BingoBoingo swapped IP, will get it updated
trinque: broadly, because I haven't yet extracted enough of the inflationary fruits of the former into coin.
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-23#1919603 << for my part, this directly correlates to irl rope-pushing without which I wouldn't have what on which to type. this is perhaps disqualifying, and I'll leave that for others to say.
a111: Logged on 2019-06-23 00:03 lobbes: however on second run-through I indeed went back to read the scripts in tandem with the gentoo handbook (so as to actually understand what was going on) and produced a bootable genesis that verified >> http://blog.lobbesblog.com/2019/02/a-bridge-to-cuntoo-for-the-lenovo-x61-x86_64/
mp_en_viaje: anyway, seems in the ripe silence of lack of activty all sorta things grew disjointed an' out of sync.
mp_en_viaje: diana_coman, but basically, it's running the same thing from 2018 ; and the reason it doesnt move is that a) we couldn't give less of a shit about ebuilds while b) we can't easily change the pile of dependencies to live with musl and so yet haven't.
diana_coman: so far other parts took priority (smg comms and client) but at least my understanding was that there is work being done further on cuntoo, I had no idea that it was stuck waiting on more intensive use or something
a111: Logged on 2019-03-09 22:45 trinque: the remainder of work here is resolving this issue (I have not had) with paths, after which we can start producing ebuilds for novel republican work atop the genesis.
a111: Logged on 2018-11-27 18:11 diana_coman: trinque, that looks great; if I understand correctly, the archive there contains the means to a. install cuntoo b. make the genesis of cuntoo/portage that could in principle be used to move an existing gentoo to cuntoo; is this correct?
a111: Logged on 2019-06-23 08:49 mircea_popescu: diana_coman, more practically, are we running cuntoo latest or what is the situation there ?
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-23#1919625 - s.mg test is running proto-cuntoo (non-musltronic) so not latest, no; there was this http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-27#1875228 and http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-09#1901069 ; as long as there is the CS dependency still on server, a move to static & musltronic only is also likely to be a lot of work.
mircea_popescu: this "here i sit, my eyes intelligent, my expression absent" situation's for the birds.
spyked: oh I see. I could do something like that, as in http://thetarpit.org/posts/y05/08b-feedbot-ii.html#selection-150.0-167.116 . but IMHO the btcbase referencing style makes more sense for code
mircea_popescu: or alternatively, there's all sorta greatness, phf has a perfectly workable code metadiscussion system on btcbase, jurov had a ver yworkable one for earlier trb work and so fucking on.
mircea_popescu: because it occurs to me that ~if~ you publish your codebase you're working on, and if your blog works correctly in the mp-wp sense, then therefore you get all this for free, just make a metapost.
mircea_popescu: and so some other guy can go "that nfi part is just a discussion of so and so, like this" and so on ?
mircea_popescu: can you do this in some manner ? so people can follow your work if they can be arsed to import the same ide / cms ? (here, it's a bit of js, and a browser, that entire stack)
spyked: for the moment all my notes are in a text file that's going to grow into a blogpost as soon as it has a head and a tail
spyked: but more specifically: the code I've stolen works so far, I have it serving an instance of thetarpit plus a somewhat-working experiment doing dynamic stuff PHP-style. but there's a lotta complexity in the work distribution code that has me going "wtf". perhaps one good task would be to implement a worker-pool thing, similarly to what apache has.
mircea_popescu: there's no rule you must publish the signed thing. you can publish 11 drafts before signing, what of it.
spyked: hitecture" is actually next blogpost in the works.
a111: Logged on 2019-06-22 13:57 mircea_popescu: the sort of "before publishing, I'm making sure" idiocy is exactly, but i do mean exactly, of the same substance as the fat girl's "this donut has no calories". it uses the exact same parts of the brain in the exact same way.
spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-22#1919220 <-- well, I can't in all good faith sign and publish the item before I understand it well enough to maintain it myself -- for the same money, I could just claim "use the version on shithub" and be done with that. I agree 100% that I should do small regular updates, but in this case breaking the thing into its constituent parts is the challenge, and "hunchentoot arc
mircea_popescu: diana_coman, more practically, are we running cuntoo latest or what is the situation there ?
mircea_popescu: responsibility is a fine and great thing indeed ; but it's not mechanizable, as part and parcel of why we have a wot as it is rather than as the lulzentreprise everyone else imagines it to be.
mircea_popescu: there's this lengthy list of examples of people coming to grief through the process of "that mp so dumb, dun even know how to horseride a shirt" or w/e such.
mircea_popescu: this pov is even voiced, but always in a chiding tone in training environments. it has its place there, but i dunno how practicable it is in the general.
a111: Logged on 2019-01-04 17:18 mircea_popescu: why the fuck didn't i think of that.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman, i suppose in a very theoretical, idealized sense. in practice however... what are we to conclude on the basis of http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-04#1884426 ? that neither i (nor anyone else here for that matter) had diffraction loaded in head ? the wave model of energy ? what exactly ?
a111: Logged on 2019-03-10 21:39 trinque: scripts/make_portage_tree.sh << line 14, I do string-munging on the path that's specific to my own filesystem layout
diana_coman: mircea_popescu: hm; to make it clear what I mean re loading-in-head - arguably if I had fully loaded-in-head the scripts, I should have found http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-10#1901339 myself, right?
diana_coman: I rather saw it as "can't do this alone, need help but won't ask because it should come naturally"
diana_coman: uhm, there seems to be something out of sync in there; perhaps you are right and the problem is one of wrongly-attached self-worth though I did not see it that way
mircea_popescu: diana_coman, this is like slavegirl saying "i don;'t understand why not ask detailedly for tongue movements and assorted shenanigans". she gets punished if jher bj is subpar because i don't have the fucking patience to micromanage blowjobs. it'd be like writing the book im about to read, if i wrote it what sorta discovery is this!
diana_coman: oh, I don't know if it's re self-worth; rather interpreting the "not fully load-in-head" as "not read"
diana_coman: what I don't understand is why not ask specifically if one would like detailed feedback on some bit/part they struggle with
mircea_popescu: in any case the "i am of the republic, i will now base my self worth on the qty and amt of loading-in-head my works get" is, as of yet, a recipe for eternal sadness. this is a new rather than old republic.
mircea_popescu: i mean, i would also like people to do more loading-into-head of whatever their native language is, so i could get better movies, music lyrics and music videos, books, blog articles and everything else.
diana_coman: re reading of stuff I guess there is also the difference between one reading and full load-in-the-head; it struck me that people would want others to do more load-in-the-head of what they produce so as to get finer-detail feedback
mircea_popescu: and this paroxistic-avoidant approach worries me universally, phf is stuck in the exact same rut, for instance. i have never in my life seen this approach to things work. not once, not FUCKING ONCE, and this is all the more indicative as it's one of the most commonly deployed broken strategies.
mircea_popescu: rather than in the normal, and correct manner in which things are discussed, as they are noticed, to get to their bottom, which is then gotten to and marked as such and things move on, with the bottom in question an ever-reliable reference always at the ready for having been correctly found, and always visible just under the skin of things, for having been correctly found.
a111: Logged on 2019-06-22 18:07 trinque: I noticed that not a soul read the scripts that bootstrap cuntoo
mircea_popescu: and so no, what worries me isn't that http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-22#1919296 ; what worries me is htat the last item in http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=%22trinque.org%22 is from 2018, and that trinque.org doesn't load today like deedbot.org didn't load yest, when i wanted to check the helpfile and ended up loading it from archive.is ;
mircea_popescu: whereas usg.blue reads not-at-all, never ever no matter what ; and usg.red reads always-aforehand. both of these idiocies, equally idiotic as they find themselves, are therefore always found in some uneasy truce. but you can't properly notate "read on 2nd pass" as "didn't read" or "won't read".
mircea_popescu: because the republic's a practice, not a "narrative" aka daydream. fundamentally, what distinguishes us from the github hipster / foss moron / entire collected pile of avortons looking for their abortion from "the bay area" & portland to eudemocracia and beyond is that we don't read on the first pass, BUT ON THE SEC
mircea_popescu: this is exactly cosubstantial with the http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-22#1919401 inquiry : "reading everything aforehand" as a strategy is just as dysfunctional as any other idealism aka premature optimization. there's a fucking reason republican doctrine is "do it by hand first, automate later, and those parts that actually need it and benefit from it, rather than randomly and abstractly like the pantsuit do".
mircea_popescu: as i sit here now, there's things around me i've never read. serial numbers on smoke detectors, handling and caring labels on rugs, brand names on plaster and wall insulation facing inside, towards the wall. i am not about to tear the place apart to read all possible strings around me. i might, ~if need be~, of course. but not before.
mircea_popescu: here's the thing with this reading business : most things are read on the second pass.
lobbes: however on second run-through I indeed went back to read the scripts in tandem with the gentoo handbook (so as to actually understand what was going on) and produced a bootable genesis that verified >> http://blog.lobbesblog.com/2019/02/a-bridge-to-cuntoo-for-the-lenovo-x61-x86_64/
lobbes will admit to committing cardinal sin of not fully reading the cuntoo bootstrap scripts before my first run-through (which trinque rightfully whacked me over the head for)
mircea_popescu: one somethong to do with trinque 's unhapiness with the cuntoo userbase ; the other something to do with wtf to do re v & portage/ebuilds.
mircea_popescu to bed. but ima try to be on tomorro (tho prolly on the viaje nick) because it seems to me there's two different layers of unhapiness preventing cuntoo from making meaningful progress, neither of which properly gotten to the bottom of.
a111: Logged on 2019-06-22 19:03 trinque: these communicating over gossipd makes a pretty clear picture
a111: Logged on 2019-06-22 18:36 asciilifeform: i.e. connect to one, its state changes, and it sends message to others, which majoritate ?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-22#1919322 << one of the corps red hat bought and buried was arguably getting close.
a111: Logged on 2019-06-22 18:22 asciilifeform: cuz imho an envir where you can build yer os/proggies at home, then upload whole thing to piz (or even yer own box wherever) an' run, and then snapshot, download state, run again at home, or (exotica) sync 2 running instances -- would be a win
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-22#1919311 << i think this is running in the wrong direction. just more shit to break / require rubber bads / touching just so and etc.
a111: Logged on 2019-06-22 18:17 trinque: perhaps all that's needed there is a cut ISO.
mircea_popescu: this isn't because "we're building housing for the sort of braindead morons who literally can not avoid walking into fire", but because "holy shit, spending life avoiding spurious pitfalls is such a sad way to go about things".
a111: Logged on 2019-06-22 18:09 trinque: and perhaps this is what's wanted, but the ubuntu-like installer that supports all hardware without anyone needing to learn to spin a linux kernel is a different kind of item
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-22#1919297 << there's an immense difference between usability and nurturing idiocy. yes, "not walking into open flame" is basic test of cns functionality ; nevertheless patterns of bursting flames on timers are found in video game platformers, not in between one's bedroom and bathroom.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-06 04:21 trinque: hanbot: hm, this got right past me. the cuntoo builder is 64bit only at the present.
mircea_popescu: now, if you wish for your takeaway from this to be "hanbot is not cool enough to run cuntoo" that's your priviledge, but i tell you i don't see the wisdom. for the same money you could say you never read the damned scripts, and butress the claim on eg http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-06#1893199
a111: Logged on 2019-06-04 12:12 diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-04#1917013 -> until we change OS basically; the test one was step towards Cuntoo and that's pretty much the only real reason for having 2 since playing around with the OS on a production server is rather iffy.
mircea_popescu: there's on one hand the http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-23#1837434 / http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-27#1875247 / http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-04#1917021 story arch, spanning a year. there's also the http://thewhet.net/2019/02/hanbots-cuntoo-bake-test-notes-part-i/ http://thewhet.net/2019/02/hanbots-cuntoo-bake-test-notes-part-ii/ http://thewhet.net/2019/03/hanbots-cuntoo-bake-test-notes-part-iii-with-prep-script/ http://t
a111: Logged on 2019-06-22 18:07 trinque: I noticed that not a soul read the scripts that bootstrap cuntoo
a111: Logged on 2019-06-22 16:43 asciilifeform: re: loose ends: fwiw asciilifeform did in fact add the final missing piece to mipstron. BUT! can't test with the dummkopf's orig linux image as he... guess wat, his system had little-endian word accesses but big-endian byte read/write ! so his image in fact will boot on NO existing mips, nor any afaik other emulator.
mircea_popescu: trinque, do me a favour and also encrypt to http://wot.deedbot.org/208FE107E970F53262C4951232992F13CFA6CD06.asc so i don't have to wake up the girls to do ahlf hour of typing for me again
mircea_popescu: whereas if we decide we dislike the "packages" abstraction (and not merely dislike it a little bit, but quite a lot, enough to justify a lot of rewriting) then the available solution's to just make one big v tree. coming with the obvious problem that if indeed the whole world's just one tree, then trying to play BOTH duke nukem AND warcraft 2 will result in two copies of the kernel compiled, like if we were idiots.
mircea_popescu: in this context then, if we decide we like the "packages" abstraction, for whatever reason, the obvious solution would be to maintain ebuilds of various vtrees as packages, and emerge them into a desired pile together.
mircea_popescu: whereas implicit v-ism would be "all code is made one pile, then built once and linked, and that's it".
mircea_popescu: i suppose the one true break here, is that portage system actually excepts to build and link by bits. "out of the codemass intended to be used, arbitrarily selected portion A is built and linked first, producing object files, then B is built and linked against those binaries"
trinque: what orchestrates building A first, then B, and finally C that links A and B, is portage
trinque: yep, if it had a sensible build system, and the work was done to port needed items to that build system, portage would be obviated
mircea_popescu: so is rather the problem that v-tron doesn't come with the right toolkit ? should get a tar and an interface for make ?
trinque: the deal of portage is it does what'd otherwise be days of pointless labor untarring and making programs to stand up a new system
asciilifeform: this resembles asciilifeform's orig. argument against having to write vtron -- 'just press the fucking patches by hand, lazy people'. but mircea_popescu didn't buy it then, so had to write vtron.
mircea_popescu: is there something mroe to this i'm missing ?
mircea_popescu: at the very rock bottom of this : the ~deal~ of portage is that it installs things for you without you necessarily understanding why. this is the pay-off, yes, "you don't have to be concerned with every little detail" or however it goes. and the cost for this is, that you don't get to understand how it installs things for you. because ultimately, you don't, whether you want to or not entirely immaterial, ungermane an' spur
asciilifeform: corollary to this q : how would a 'trb ebuild' differ from the trb vtree as it stands ?
trinque: my contention is there won't be gentoo to speak of in that world, which is desirable, and far ahead yet.
mircea_popescu: so then don't go at me with "calibers" and other such selg-aggrandizing nonsense, mr alchemist man.
asciilifeform: notion is to do something about this, rather than simple lament, tho.
mircea_popescu: trinque, yes, but how about actually giving this teeth from the get go, in the sense of working out some sort of something that both conserves the gains and opens up gentoo to being raped raw
asciilifeform: (or, charitably, the old chinese 'leather cannon', 50% likelihood of nailing either artilleryman or enemy )
mircea_popescu: you understand this, yes ? there's no definite utility to computers. for all the promises of grandeur and wunderbarness, a gun's a gun's a gun, and a computer's a smartphone's a tivo.
trinque: asciilifeform: heh, wealth opens up these approaches!!
mircea_popescu: i often take shits i do not know the mass of.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, there's nothing to do between a gun and a computer. a gun is a tool. a c omputer is a piece of shit.
asciilifeform: do you also own e.g. pistols where you dun know the caliber ?
mircea_popescu: yes. about half of them.
mircea_popescu: the fundamental problem here is the implicit dwim-ism involved in "i don't have a vax/dec/cuisinart, i have a COMPUTER, as in the abstract"
trinque: that human forms only ever approximate the godly ones, even if always approaching
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, suppose fellow wants ffa. how does he pick the one he needs ?
mircea_popescu: what'd the distinction be ?
trinque: possibly tangent, but imho there needs to be a distinction between the language of the gods (and the rules thereof) and handbook of suitable places to take a shit.
asciilifeform: so i tell the fella with the vax, 'go and make this its own tree, give it to fellow vaxers to sign, not to me'.
asciilifeform: the problem of 'ifdef' is the clusterfuck where i am given to sign a patch that includes '#ifdef vax' but i dun have a vax. and dun intend to.
asciilifeform: rly, we gotta do the ifdef thread again entirely ?
asciilifeform: it aint 'ifdefism' if you dun have two incompatible items which purport to inhabit the same vtree.
asciilifeform: when i pull disk out of binder to install os, already pick the 1 where wrote down the type of cpu for which it was, neh
asciilifeform: which diverse at the point where you added asmism or whatever it is that marries it to given $irons
mircea_popescu: if tomorrow we have a ffa-for-pc and a ffa-for-mips alternative, there WILL BE AN IFDEF.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i described this in the orig ifdefism thread. the solution is to stop pretending that coad worx on boxen where no one in living memory had ever tested it and signed.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform was able to cut several MB from ye olde gnu mpi (which today lives in diana_coman's 'eucrypt') simply by beheading the #ifdef dec_vax... and #ifdef xenix... etc
mircea_popescu: to do the "ifdef vax" in a magically acceptable manner ?
a111: Logged on 2019-06-02 03:43 mircea_popescu: all joking aside : the best answer i could produce for the http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-01#1916471 question stands as "choose between steamos and ubuntu", which in plain terms is "do you wish to make your computer a supernintendo and buy virtual cartridges for it ? or would you rather make your computer a mobile phone ?"
mircea_popescu: we currently know ~nothing about the ~100mn lines of crap that constitute any machine anyone actually boots into.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: correct. and 1ce you 'saved state', you dun need 'if bug xxxxxx...'. cuz you ~already know~ whether this evaluates to troo or false
mircea_popescu: now what's the idea, we'll keep it under glass and... not use it ?
mircea_popescu: well yes, but look here : at some point we decided to save the state of computing, specifically to avoid this "nobody has built since 2011, here have a virtual machine"
asciilifeform: there cannot be any such thing as nondeterministic process in vpress
trinque: it's a bunch of portlanders all saying "oh no *you* go" at the 4 way stop
asciilifeform: it's the ebuild equiv of orig 'patch''s 'merging'
mircea_popescu: they built this magical workaround their own idiocy. what the hell could it possibly consist of besides the devil himself ?
mircea_popescu: the 5% dude.
asciilifeform: the heathens ftr took up this fallacy ( 'who needs reproducible builds, we have vmware' ) and have written themselves into some pretty amazing corners ('what did you say, you wanted to BUILD 'rails' from src? no one has done this since 2011... here have a vm' etc)
trinque: there's a mountain of environment variables that affects how portage behaves
trinque: last dive I took into the portage code, it appeared to be filled with steps around either bugs in linux or packages
a111: Logged on 2019-06-22 21:34 trinque: asciilifeform's mips-vm thing could be one candidate for the hard break
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-06-22#1919415 << i must point out, this item imho is orthogonal to the problem of this thrd, a standard 'machine' does not remove the need for proper 'systemwide vtron'-aka-portage-replacement
trinque: ebuilds are on their 6th or 7th format revision; they're as much imperative code as they're declarative metadata
asciilifeform: the remaining 5% is to make it eat the ancient ebuild format. supposing that's even what we want, what with it having 'optional' sigs etc
asciilifeform: pretty much 95% of a 'portage' right there
asciilifeform: there is even a (sad, disused, esthlos went to bottom of sea) but last i saw -- working -- cl vtron
mircea_popescu: i personally doubt such a thing as a lisp portage can be made. but then again i have no coding experience.
asciilifeform: observe that v itself , orig asciilifeform wrote in python, on napkin, but since re-baked by many folx many times in other scriptrons
asciilifeform: the fundamental insight is circa '15 -- script lang dun need gc
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: imho python is one of the cheapest heathenisms to perma-kill. if e.g. spyked's miniature lisp could be grown to adulthood, can dispense with python/perl/bash/etc
trinque: asciilifeform's mips-vm thing could be one candidate for the hard break
mircea_popescu: diana_coman, nor will anything else made by idiots, which is to say 70% of the kernel and 95% of the userspace.
trinque: my intent here has been to stablize the workbench and then make a *hard* break with the whole stack
diana_coman: fwiw re gprbuild and legacy c/cpp-ism: cal3d lib builds with gprbuild absolutely fine; CS however not at all and it's not a trivial thing to port it either as far as I could tell at a quick look.
asciilifeform: well yes, was speaking of the payloads strictly
mircea_popescu: trinque, do me a favour an' state the problem in yoru own words so as to see how synced we're here
asciilifeform: aha, it's moar or less lang-agnostic. but it also is an orc half-implementation of v (attempts to find dependencies, and to check sigs, but for some reason the latter is optional, and the former only quasi-worx)
mircea_popescu: he has a point there, in that at least portage will emerge a complete world, for whatever any other complaints one might harbor
asciilifeform: ftr ada's 'gprbuild' is the 1st 'make'-like automator asciilifeform ever used that he did not want to throw against the wall erryday
mircea_popescu: and yes indeedy, i'd much rather mandate a "your project must buuld on gprbuild" than a "your project must include ebuild", if there's mandatin'.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, the main problem here seems to be "what allowances to build system do we make in the fundamental"
mircea_popescu: all this said, i don't believe if someone wrote an ebuilds for say ffa they'd thereby degrade ffa.
asciilifeform: but e.g. trb , pretty heavy, 0 autoconf (in the proggy per se, that is; there is some in the deps, however)
mircea_popescu: the fundamental problem remains, however, that a sufficiently large c/cpp code snippet will not build on any machine.
asciilifeform: and yes legacy crapola that nobody got around to deautoconfing yet, do use, there's 9000 on my boxen. but what i touch with own hands , away it goes
mircea_popescu: and the reasons we wanted v were very much specifically and centrally "so such a thing as portage is can NOT be had, and such problems as it solves can not be solved"
mircea_popescu: nothing wrong with it, it was so by agreement and deliberately not accidentally. now the problem of digestion, however...
trinque: I can see the continuous symbolic space mircea_popescu wants, but the cuntoo thing was exactly "capture these packages before they can't even be built anymore" plus a snapshot of a working build toolchain to do so.
mircea_popescu: i don't think it permits the notion of "package". but it will press to your intended destination, all leaves up to it.
mod6: There will be a blog post I make about how I want through the ebuild process, but probably closer to month-end.
mod6: I still consider them "in-progress", but will forward what I have along to you here by Monday. (I wanted to get these ones built before the trb one - which I'm just starting on now.)