gabriel_laddel: "did i tell you about the one time when i took over management of a grocery store for 10 minutes ?" < do tell
phf: who wants a dead american on their hands for couple a hundred bucks?
gabriel_laddel: the 'victim' just rode away iirc?
mircea_popescu: for over half the encounter, he was wide the fuck open to a head-to-chin, and the fact that the croc totting ustard DIDNT lay him flat on his ass is an insult to humanity.
mircea_popescu: shinohai gaw fallout innit ? the same fucktards who were importantly commenting on websites, rettardit, tardstalk, what have you and "feeling like a trader/investor/capitalist" for a year or so.
gabriel_laddel: ^ anyways, if that occurs I'd like to be able to stuff a backpack full of explosives, let the guy run off with it and then detonate without being bothered by the feds
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: when the proprietor went for a smoke ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform economically ? did i tell you about the one time when i took over management of a grocery store for 10 minutes ?
shinohai: http://archive.is/kx8Gj <<< I may be asshole, but I think ppl like this deserve to lose whatever sums of Bitcoin they had.
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: I've been reading the reports.. hence my interest.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i still question that anybody with two legs, anywhere, is dumber than the folx here in good ol' phreeeeeeedomlande
gabriel_laddel: the video of a motorbike robbery from reddit a year or two ago
mircea_popescu: gabriel_laddel VERY, VERY different in SA. you have no fucking idea, and apparently you've not been following my field reports. these people are retarded. economically speaking, they're dumber than a gecko.
mircea_popescu: back when they actually had capital controls in place i imported what must amount to one metric ton in us bills via ferry on montevideo.
gabriel_laddel: remeber the BA guy on a motorbike?
mircea_popescu: you could liberally do the ferry bit, but it wouldn't net you the (very cheap) ticket cost.
mircea_popescu: gabriel_laddel computers do not cost 2x, except hte locals are 2x as idiotic. the home shopping network demographic pays 20 bux for a plastic "earring organizer", but this is not because "plastic is expensive in the us".
asciilifeform: hoodrats are the loyal servants of feds
gabriel_laddel: Oh oh, my point is more along the lines of - you can't cook mustard gas, use it on the hoodrats and then make use of the large industrial zone near oakland.
asciilifeform: re the turrets
gabriel_laddel: I've already sold 'stuff' here in the states, and don't see how it could possibly be different in SA?
a111: Logged on 2016-07-02 14:39 gabriel_laddel: What I had intended to say was: I'm on the hunt for products that are difficult to create in the ussa because of the supergay laws, or the interactions between the supergay laws and the situation in the field (ie, why one cannot make automated turrets to defend one's $100/month flat in the hood == the feds).
a111: Logged on 2016-05-11 19:33 mircea_popescu: fwiw, young males that aren't entirely dumb go almost universally through this phase of "fantasy busienss" where they keep doing various coups in their heads, start a carwash then buy a shoestore with the proceeds then trade that in for a chain fo restaurants etc etc etc.
gabriel_laddel: (am assuming I'd be able to ship in parts to BA, assemble them into machines and then take a ferry and sell in MTV)
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: Speaking of which, why is it so difficult to get 'stuff' into BA? If I wanted to ship in a bunch of computer parts and undercut the Uruguay competition (computers reportedly cost 2x what they do in the states because ??) the issues would be what exactly?
gabriel_laddel: What I had intended to say was: I'm on the hunt for products that are difficult to create in the ussa because of the supergay laws, or the interactions between the supergay laws and the situation in the field (ie, why one cannot make automated turrets to defend one's $100/month flat in the hood == the feds).
a111: Logged on 2016-02-18 22:21 gabriel_laddel: I have a few obligations to take care of here in the US first.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-02 13:58 mircea_popescu: the train example is very much illustrative. there is no purpose to trains! trains exist because of the following conversation : "hey, this steam engine is pretty neat, but is it always stationary ?" "i guess you could add a rail to it..." "hmmmm".
mircea_popescu: ~0, % or no %, can say anything actionable about either, or anything else.
asciilifeform: how many can say anything actionable about either.
mircea_popescu: women are by their nature stupid, there's no way to argue with the data. they'll do great on confucian-style government exams and nowhere else. especially nowhere it matters, such as you know, "the carpet has just been pulled from under clinton and it's not coming back, you know who pulled it ?"
asciilifeform: they also heard of neutrino.
mircea_popescu: and speaking of jennifers : i can report partial data on a multi-year research project. of the "internet demographic" (under 30, poor, intelligent, educated, ambitious - the sort that supplies the seo experts, hackers, camwhores etc), 93% (of 2274) males and 2% (of 741) females actually heard of bitcoin.
mircea_popescu: apparently a bare tits floor cleanner / anthropologist named jennifer latson actually believes what "the press at the time" said is a source of truth ; and worth the mention other than derisively.
mircea_popescu: http://time.com/3546215/laika-1957/ << also interested for idiotologists, because of the references to imbecile ustardian press of the 50s, and exact unchanged restatement half a century later. truly nothing has changed in our colonies on the indian plains.
mircea_popescu: ( http://change.com/int/leika-2.html the dog in question, for they unfamiliar with 20th century history)
mircea_popescu: so no, no "correct for x". there is a "correct of y" and that's the whole of the law.
mircea_popescu: neither of these two form part of correctness ; the consideration of material strength above does.
mircea_popescu: on the other hand, considerations of powers that wanna be, who really aren't, such as cixi wanting it to be "quiter than x" or hilary clinton wanting it to "not destroy usg because the us understood as usg was always great" will also not be considered.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile, considerations of "abstract thinkers" who are really metaphysicians, such as "will people be able to breathe ???" are not to be considered. if they are they live if they are not they die. nobody cares. whether leika comes back down or not is not a point of consideration in the soviet space programme.
mircea_popescu: "no, gotta be metal" "silver ?" no, abundant" "then iron is the correct substance" "So it is!"
mircea_popescu: "oh so no cement, collected baby teeth, braided hay or glass then!"
mircea_popescu: and in this context there exists a correctness, "what do we make the rail out of ?" "well, minimum mass of functional steam engine is 1 ton, so i guess something rigid enough ; but also can't be friable must be ductile.
mircea_popescu: that's it. it exists BECAUSE you could add a rail to a steam engine. it doesn't exist TO anything, for all anyone cares it could be to go to the moon or washington as well as better circle the wagons or hunt mountain goats.
mircea_popescu: the train example is very much illustrative. there is no purpose to trains! trains exist because of the following conversation : "hey, this steam engine is pretty neat, but is it always stationary ?" "i guess you could add a rail to it..." "hmmmm".
shinohai: Rewriting the whitepaper will fix everything.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-02 04:37 mircea_popescu: if correctly executed, this will result in sugar, spice and everything nice necessarily. not just denying the adversary the one pasture it truly needs ; but importantly http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-02#1494660
mircea_popescu: this is neither here nor there, inconvenient as it may be, it has no more bearing on uci than it has on hypocaloric diets.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-02 04:54 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform consider the implications of what you are arguing. if your idea of "irreplaceable home box" stands, this necessarily reduces to fortresses, armies and dirigibles. a world which happens to exclude a lot of people
mircea_popescu: i'm not required to show you a 1980s mercedes sedan in 1882 to explain why the fuck cars are a thing.
mircea_popescu: obviously, X arbitrary usecase is going to be higher hanging fruit than Y. so what the fuck of it, this is always the case.
mircea_popescu: you're not at liberty to freely migrate this into some crazy shit on a stick like we're doing free word association in the mental patient yard.
mircea_popescu: dude. i gave you an example of cars and horses to explain how TECHNOLOGY IS REPLACED FROM THE BOTTOM OF THE FRUIT TREE UP
asciilifeform: now i must sleep a bit, expedition to the bmore epicentre tomorrow, but i will return to this.
mircea_popescu: how the everfuck is this germane.
asciilifeform: something gotta count the votez
asciilifeform: i was addressing the 'replace my comp' aspect
mircea_popescu: and while i have no doubt seti@home are imbeciles, nevertheless the problem is well solved. voting etc.
mircea_popescu: eh, that's not contemplated. your objection is like saying "bitcoin is not the solution because my hairdresser doens't take it".
asciilifeform: and other idiocies
asciilifeform: and still end up resorting to obfuscating the client
asciilifeform: 'seti@home' et al approach the problem by burning the lion's share of cycles on verification/duplication.
asciilifeform: the 8ball.
asciilifeform: nobody's creaming his pants re prospect of comouting with them.
mircea_popescu: yeah well, it is my notion that the proposed scheme, while sinfully vague, is a better prototype for it than anything else available.
asciilifeform: anyway i dun actually disagree with mircea_popescu re 'delocalized computing is spiffy'. simply must pointout that we ~don't have it~ and that all of the proposed mechanisms put us no closer to it.
mircea_popescu: the only difference being that folks who abstract end up urbiting only if idiots, and choose to do so ; whereas folks who think program is a car and internet a truck end up with openssh and junk-o-rama no matter what they want, or do, or even understand.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and folks who want to know "what purpose" the program is supposed to serve end up writing openssh ; and fifty years later still wallow without proper crypto.
mircea_popescu: everyone swallowed the inept broken premises whole, to debate the end point. fucking hell. nevermind if you'd download a car or not. CODE IS NOT CARS!
mircea_popescu: code is not things, which is why whether i;d download a car or not has no fucking bearing on that discussion.
mircea_popescu: anyway. the physical metaphore for computing is shitty, and has definitely outlived its usefulness.
mircea_popescu: notice that if there's something that ruined computing, it's the switch from "we're building computers" to "we would like the secretaries to typeset on these".
mircea_popescu: and correct takes argument, yes, but in the form of... parents. like amoeba, like urmom, like v and like everything else built to last.
mircea_popescu: rather than merely adequate pistol.
mircea_popescu: i don't care what comes out of it. just as long as the process is correct, come what may will be fine.
asciilifeform: 'i have this pistol because IT IS HUGE mutherfackerz'
mircea_popescu: there IS NO TARGET
mircea_popescu: whether it does x or does y is indifferent.
mircea_popescu: there isn't a purpose, how hard is this to grok ?
mircea_popescu: so no, you fake your absolutes. flush blender corpse all you want ; maybe something can be proven later. but there's no guarantee.
asciilifeform: the reasonable supposition is that all plaintext going a kilometre or longer outdoors is logged.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-02 05:36 mircea_popescu: there is not a point in this sense.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you can try and push the conversation in your "the purpose is X" scheme all you want ; it won't go there, because, again, http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-02#1494929
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if not this, then what?
mircea_popescu: actually, i don't think our scheme necessarily allows to know WHICH it was even if you confiscate them all.
asciilifeform: (if tor actually worked, they would have had to, or to give up)
asciilifeform: i.e. they were not able to confiscate and search every box in ipv4 space to see which was sr
mircea_popescu: there is not a point in this sense.
asciilifeform: unless i catastrophically misunderstand, the point of 'can't connect event with physical box' is to make usg inquisitions prohibitively expensive
a111: Logged on 2016-07-02 05:25 mircea_popescu: but the concept of "a method which does not allow mapping of physical resources to logical resources by third party" DOES work.
asciilifeform: the involuntary participation is key.
mircea_popescu: for it to be a point it'd have to be constructed out of things that may exist in the same sentence, which it isn't.
mircea_popescu: stop mixing shit against entropy flow. you don't give the first of a flying fuck about the number 3. you're wrtiting code, it may not contain magic numbers.
asciilifeform: because the number of voluntary boxes is 3?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, that's the convenient excuse. it is forced by the fact that "botmaster" === "pimply idiot with no social insertion".
mircea_popescu: the failure of single men to matter is not to be construed as saying anything about the abilities and capacities of hordes with herds in tow.
mircea_popescu: eating also "doesn't solve the problem".
mircea_popescu: your notion of "actually solve the problem" oft shipwrecks on metaphysical shores.
asciilifeform: probably it spent 100x that if you count the black efforts also.
mircea_popescu: they're going about it wrong. as usual.
mircea_popescu: but the concept of "a method which does not allow mapping of physical resources to logical resources by third party" DOES work.
asciilifeform: nobody actually invented the working thing tor purported to be.
mircea_popescu: the race is on to reproduce it without faking.
mircea_popescu: the fact that the purportedly observed behaviour, EVEN IF FAKED, still violates no physics laws is now out of the bag.
asciilifeform: so posited. eeexcept in this case there was no display, no eternally turning wheel, but some dwarf hidden in the mechanism was turning a crank
mircea_popescu: has exactly no bearing on the fact that the capacitive display actually works, conceptually.
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, people still line up to buy it, and go crazy about it, and on and on. EVEN THOUGH nobody actually got to take one home,
mircea_popescu: now, the tor would be "ipad", except a peculiar sort that does not in fact work.
mircea_popescu: let's try a comparison, to clear this up. so : capacitive display, as seen in ipad, is inherently cool. the capacitive display would be the "can't phyisically identify box running server".
asciilifeform: and all the folks who believed that he didn't, are ~dead now
mircea_popescu: EVEN in the "look but don't touch" version displayed. ye ken ?
mircea_popescu: tor never worked, but THE "we don't know which physical object maps to the logical object called <this server>" BIT did!
mircea_popescu: now, time to make a day of it, and the bait a full wedding meal.
mircea_popescu: point remains : the "we don't know which physical object maps to the logical object called <this server>" bit worked, even in the "look but don't touch" version displayed by tor. in fact - it was the bait in that trap.
asciilifeform: where i noted that 'jailed for child pr0nz' only EVER happens to folks who a) need to have problemz b) plebe meat to keep the blades greased
asciilifeform: they never seem to run out of heads tho
mircea_popescu: pretense isn't the problem here.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform understand the problem with the pretense : sword cuts both ways, before you know it, i'm using it to cut their heads.
asciilifeform: 'she floated, therefore witch' also 'worked'.
mircea_popescu: contrary to what democratic idiots like to think, and keep affirming, the beoble has exactly no impact on history.
asciilifeform: it will vanish with the muppet audience, and not before
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, most modern "law enforcement" by mass is "this computer points at you mr alf". which is rank nonsense, and must go away.
mircea_popescu: you can't convict without body BECAUSE the "this hammer points at you, mr alf" is a sham ; and known as such, and for a long time.
mircea_popescu: there isn't much in common between computer and hammer.
mircea_popescu: to an alarming degree, which passes for "normal" in the mind of derps like rms, because it's common and he's confused, computing IS ALREADY TIVOIZED
asciilifeform: we dun have the tech for 'can't discern'
mircea_popescu: there's no "you need some derps across town to add your own 2+2" ; but instead "from the fact that you added 2+2 eve can't discern where the fuck you did it"
asciilifeform: walk me through the connection ?
mircea_popescu: that i have the option to fuck any woman in town does in no conceivable way reduce to me being married to every woman that ever lived.
asciilifeform: i dun find electrical communism, where i somehow need some derps across the town to add my own 2+2 and save the result, any more appealing than the other kinds.
mircea_popescu: forget the fork, and generally what is this slop!
asciilifeform: the fork i eat with is physics
mircea_popescu: which is why louis tried to convince the idiots they can only TRULY eat at versailles.
mircea_popescu: in any case, the fork example is miserable. fork is commodity item and thus cloudized already. if obama steals your fork you go to chinese shitshop across street buy replacement.
asciilifeform: at any rate i was excluded from various things, like felt top hats, long ago, and will doubtless be excluded from other nice things, like forks and livers, in the future, but it does not follow that random rubbish now logically substitutes for the missing items.
asciilifeform: *the h
mircea_popescu: hence the problem.
mircea_popescu: first on the list, you.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform consider the implications of what you are arguing. if your idea of "irreplaceable home box" stands, this necessarily reduces to fortresses, armies and dirigibles. a world which happens to exclude a lot of people
asciilifeform: 'cloud' works for certain specific purposes, like ddos, where the malfeasance of any number of individual drones has 0 consequence.
asciilifeform: who MUST get 4 when they 2+2, every single time, and within 1ns, hell or high water
asciilifeform: more likely than not, the creator of the atrocity will even continue to get paid, while the crater smoulders
asciilifeform: it isn't as if the random rubytardation was connected to a reactor that will melt down now.
asciilifeform: aws lost the disk? no tears!
asciilifeform: it is because their crud doesn't actually need to work!
asciilifeform: it is also worth noting why chickens appear to work so well for the tard crowd
a111: Logged on 2016-06-28 15:09 asciilifeform: 'when DEC Alpha existed, did you motherfuckers buy?? no?? have fun'
asciilifeform: 1024 chickens cannot replace my ox, now or ever, for perfectly fundamental physical reasons. which does not mean that the chickens cannot propel some cart, somewhere, in approx correct direction.
mircea_popescu: i am in general more than happy to go into "don't interrupt - mistake" mode, whenever i know this to be the case.
asciilifeform: for one thing, no machines outside of my house can carry out the functions of 1 machine inside. various reasons - cryptohygiene, speed of light, reliability.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it remains possible, yes. review your objection re "spamming reddit", which is exactly the same principle at work in a smaller snowglobe. their swarm of pinoy breed there, right ? pasture.
mircea_popescu: if correctly executed, this will result in sugar, spice and everything nice necessarily. not just denying the adversary the one pasture it truly needs ; but importantly http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-02#1494660
mircea_popescu: that's one level. and it informs the practical definition of uci, an implementation thereof, as you quote it.
mircea_popescu: from these it necessarily follows that tmsr must make a correct commodization interface for computing resources.
mircea_popescu: practically, bitcoin has shown, and before that theoretical considerations have indicated and predicted, at various levels of abstraction, that computing will commodify. moreover, the adversary itself is creating an eth to this particular bitcoin - they call it "the cloud".
mircea_popescu: so, strategically, we (as in, humans, people, we) are confronted with an adversary (ie, socialist state, usg, aliens, the devil incarnate, pure evil, etc) that predicates its relevancy upon targeted computing denial (see http://trilema.com/2014/the-problem-of-enforcement/ ; and also http://trilema.com/2015/mika-epstein-aka-ipstenu-is-a-thoroughly-clueless-poser/ re the ddos "we won't fix" and so on )
asciilifeform: what the useful payload is.
mircea_popescu: that's a different (and much lower) level of the discussion. was that your target ?
asciilifeform: was there moar?
asciilifeform: 'The goal of TMSR as far as computing is concerned is to deploy a cheap, effectual, networked computing interface that can not be disrupted significantly under any circumstances by any adversary for whatever reason.'
mircea_popescu: there's no point in the sense of "this is what we're trying to accomplish". there's a few drivers ; and logically some likely outcomes. should i enumerate ?
asciilifeform: it is worth thinking about wtf the point of uci was
ben_vulpes: the 'lovers army'
ben_vulpes: and is the harnessing chumpnet thing still design vision and not people with real hardware to lease?
asciilifeform: where the magic privkey is central throne of failure.
phf: well, the point of the conversation seems to be for asciilifeform to make sure everyone knows that they are idiots :>
ben_vulpes: and then swampy again
ben_vulpes: and then as cold
phf: your thinking about 2) seems to be sloppy, but 1) is a ~point~, so no further discussion is required
phf: is the actual order of events
phf: so i'm just trying to understand better the original objections
asciilifeform: phf: so they weren't.
phf: asciilifeform: you're more attached to dismissing symmetric, then i am to preserving it
mircea_popescu: -V motherfuckers!
phf: each slave vm gets a random int id and a symmetric key, master store int<->symmetric key in a binary tree. packet comes in <int><sig>, you get the symmetric key for int and use it to verify sig
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the sewer rats cannot abide small, simple things
mircea_popescu: of course, if you read the java-esque nightmare that "solidity" is, reimplementing eth as a small emu thing would benefit it immensely.
mircea_popescu: reimplementing bitcoin is not the end of the world anyway. the extant version is crap.
phf: otherwise you have to read the whole thing before you can make a decision whether or not whole thing is bogus
asciilifeform: but yes, the only topologies i know of for this are the traditional star, with 'signed by fuhrer - blob runs, no - not' or ... reimplementing bitcoin
phf: in order to do that you need crypto where each individual byte in a stream carries enough information to make a decision there and then. so you send a byte packet and have a 1/256 change of going to next byte
asciilifeform: and - ideally - succumb to doing some useful work on their own as well.
asciilifeform: the important thing is that usg's 1,000,000,001 emulated uci sybils should have no bearing on the workings of genuine nodez.
phf: asciilifeform: same way as you do with wot folks. you state who you are, then prove it with a sig
asciilifeform: nodes can have no meaningful identity other than pubkeys.
thestringpuller: isn't the point of V to prevent compromised binaries?
asciilifeform: and anyway you can't use symmetric key that could be pulled from the binary by adversary to any useful end.
asciilifeform: symmetric crypto other than otp dun exist.
mircea_popescu: i certainly see the argument re SMALL.
phf: asciilifeform: that solution doesn't preclude fancy metering techniques, wot members own control hubs, talk to each other gossip style, and route tasks accordingly
mircea_popescu: fundamentally uci is a lateral pill for the hardware problem, oddly enough.
mircea_popescu: "is your dec alpha/toaster/bitcoin miner pluggable into uci ? cool, then it makes money. no ? it's broken fix it"
a111: Logged on 2016-06-28 15:09 asciilifeform: 'when DEC Alpha existed, did you motherfuckers buy?? no?? have fun'
asciilifeform: we sorta went over this in the pogo threads.
phf: so a virtual machine with constraints, "jump to here, run at most 100 ticks, claim at most 100 heap" that's generated for the target with target platform and control key baked in during generation
mircea_popescu: the whole point of uci is for there to be no more platform in that sense. course, this seems an unlikely goal.
mircea_popescu: yeah, the platform specificity is a bitch.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes that there's no specific check or test other than top | grep "ram" sorta thing.
mircea_popescu: if we do a "trust but verify" no agreement all code, we end up strongly decentralizing, but exposed to you know, thedao.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: aok. then not 'any key in wot' and bill afterwards
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: the key emplaced on install.
mircea_popescu: at the other end of the spectrum, it can just be open bash and well, don't take code from people you don't trust.
asciilifeform: phf: without the qemu crapola
ben_vulpes: if the lubified turd came from the supervisor process C could come along with the 'script'
asciilifeform: then stops.
asciilifeform: when it pieces one together, and it passes sig - it runs.
asciilifeform: in 'idle' state, when the thing has no payload, it listens for a lubyfied turd signed with $key.
ben_vulpes: oh a buildroot that compiles a 'linux' to the nintendo emu arch?
mircea_popescu: more along these lines i'm thinking.
mircea_popescu: no i know, it's not on you ; just, the matter has to be discuss't.
asciilifeform: btw there was a trojan bearing 'tinyscheme'
asciilifeform: (consider etherfartgas)
asciilifeform: this is in the homomorphic vein
mircea_popescu: anyway. uci is not gossipd. there is a good reason to implement gossipd OVER uci, but on the uci layer the thing shouldn't be concerned with this kind of security i don't thinl
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the tor model is, other than its many implementation warts, fundamentally broken i think.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i'm thinking a "independent nodes" sort of botnet, as opposed to the zombie windowze thing usually run
asciilifeform: there are 2 basic angles to approach uci : the standard botnet model, which appears to be what mircea_popescu is thinking of, where nodes are individual boxes running specific program that does fairly straightforward thing,
mircea_popescu: not entirely sure bash it is the right way here ; but it does cheaply (in cognitive terms) expose the system for usage. which is why ssh runs into a bash shell.
mircea_popescu: then uci responds with "script ran, results os and so, paqy here"