phf: Framedragger: i'm basically using kako's log format as a universal exchange <id>;<unix timestamp>;<nick>;<message>, so there's a python bottle proxy sitting on a machine, that, very defensively, can serve a copy of your page in a kako format. it caches all pages that are not today, and it has like 10 second cache for today's queries, but otherwise i'm not mirroring your pages
asciilifeform: intel and arium sell similar devices that work with (strictly) intel mobos, but they cost five-figure usd, with MANDATORY support contract, and their software is winblows shitware.
asciilifeform: call'em up, see if they still have any.
trinque: http://www.gizmosphere.org/products/gizmo-explorer-kit/ << this mentions having the sage smartprobe in kit
asciilifeform: trinque: it came with the 'gizmo 1' strictly.
trinque: but the debugger comes in that kit? or I have to find that separately?
asciilifeform: trinque: debugger attaches to 'amd hdt' connector, present on the board. there are landing pads for it on surprisingly many amd mobos
asciilifeform: (gizmo 2 is better board but no longer includes the box)
asciilifeform: trinque: i'm not certain it can be had any more. the last place selling was element14 with the 'gizmo 1' kit
trinque: asciilifeform: have a preferred distributor for the sage?
asciilifeform: http://zammit.org/libreboot-screwup.html << remaining working hands run for the hills.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu ^ for the killing jar.
asciilifeform: e like this seek to transition to their preferred gender. Read more about it on Wikipedia. We will not directly name the person who was fired, because we don't want the individual to be harrased. If you do somehow figure it out (the FSF's staff is very small) then please be silent. We realize that this is potentially risky to the individual involved. Nonetheless, we feel it our moral duty to expose wrongdoing, wherever it is observed
asciilifeform: 'Libreboot left the GNU project on 15 September 2016. The FSF revealed itself to be hostile towards trans people, so libreboot voluntarily decided to leave the GNU project, because the lead developer of libreboot is transgender herself. For those in the community who are unaware, a transgender person is someone whose internal gender identity (in their brain) does not match their anatomical sex or gender assigned at birth. Many who ar
Framedragger: right. see trinque, you don't see "lazy" in that context as having any descriptive context (what shinohai's pots); i do. a simple disagreement regarding the use. but i of course have to agree with your general sentiment...
trinque: Framedragger: separate what's being said here from any commentary on the bot, which is coming along fine.
trinque: and arguing from the context of a dead culture buys nothing. "oh this is what people say"
trinque: what it means is this limp dicked "I did a thing but don't judge me pls" that produced the mountain of filth in which we live
shinohai: I used "lazy" in my bickening response, which pretty much meant I was focused more on other boiling pots at the time.
Framedragger: sure, but by that metric most of software should be discarded a priori. i agree it's not a good thing; this will get fixed when other, important stuff gets fixed.
BingoBoingo: So true "Imagine a rutabaga or an apple, a living harbinger of an adult plant like Christ in His manger presaging the deliverance of all mankind boiled, baked, fried, sauteed, steamed, sun-dried (poor raisins!), microwaved, or roasted to death. Imagine crunching into a fresh green pepper and listening to it scream as your molars do their dirty work. "
pete_dushenski: "@TuurDemeester: Why C++ is used on Wall Street is the same reason why it's used for Bitcoin: precision and performance." << expert trolling or iyi 'expert' ? you decide.
pete_dushenski: in other lulz
pete_dushenski: lurching, belching buses. Alongside were rousing posters, designed in that wonderfully retro socialist realism only the Cubans still embraced: ¡TODO POR LA REVOLUCIÓN! ¡HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE! ¡PATRIA O MUERTE, VENCEREMOS! Meanwhile, I was walking around Facebook, surrounded by stenciled portraits of Mark and equally exhortatory posters: PROCEED AND BE BOLD! GET IN OVER YOUR HEAD! MAKE AN IMPACT!"
pete_dushenski: in other reconfiguring news, fbook vs. cuba : "In Havana, my cousins were forced to listen to rambling speeches about maintaining core values inside a one-dimensional cult of personality. In Menlo Park, I was sitting in a tent full of people wearing identical uniforms of Facebook swag and doing the same. Back in Havana, my cousins were eyeing posters of Che and Fidel on crumbling buildings and the sides of
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-20: [07:42:40] <mircea_popescu> http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160920/#19 << so reconfigure your head ; stop doing that, it's miserable for the republic and bad enough for you.☝︎☟
a111: Logged on 2016-09-20 07:42 mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160920/#19 << so reconfigure your head ; stop doing that, it's miserable for the republic and bad enough for you.
phf: (note that the two arrows are not part of message)
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-20: [14:26:03] <asciilifeform> http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160920/#37 << if this is fixable without breaking old urls, or reaching into the guts of a ~decade-old wp install, i'm all ears
asciilifeform: in other noose, https://review.coreboot.org/#/c/11836 << coreboot (formerly linuxbios) now has optional gnat !!11
trinque: you can see it when you use the inspector in chrome
Framedragger: i'm restarting the whole box.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160920/#37 << if this is fixable without breaking old urls, or reaching into the guts of a ~decade-old wp install, i'm all ears << Depending on your wordpress species usually if you set up a person readable url scheme the default numeric one continues working
trinque: It's currently not possible to register an account for use with Tor without connecting at least once over the Internet. << tfa
asciilifeform: in other noose, guess what fleanode was welding on during the recent wave of resets, etc: https://freenode.net/news/tor-online
asciilifeform: and has the sage connector soldered down at factory.
asciilifeform: ^ only 1 nic, rather than 3, though, in that one.
asciilifeform: incidentally, trinque, phf, et al : http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/83-16358 << this here's the OTHER 'schematics published, amd g-series, sage plug' board. and this one has vga. and apparently is going out of print, being sold for half price in a few places.
asciilifeform: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160920/#52 << be aware that if you find a sage box, you will need to solder the connector (it is a simple job, but the header is a ~metric~ one, see the pcengines schematics)
asciilifeform: some time later i'ma clean up and publish the command set that drives the thing, also
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-20: [07:41:28] <mircea_popescu> http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160920/#15 << not so ; the attitude as well as the possibility of success are of interest to the largest number of people speaking this language. especially if they currently don't know this. they may "proclaim irrelevant" whatever, but their green friend is interested in them.
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-20: [07:35:31] <mircea_popescu> http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160920/#6 << nice! but asciilifeform consider fixing your urls, this ?p=blabla is for the dogs. and lafond i guess, but really, most yahoo thing one can do blogging.
asciilifeform: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160920/#37 << if this is fixable without breaking old urls, or reaching into the guts of a ~decade-old wp install, i'm all ears
PeterL: BingoBoingo on http://qntra.net/2016/09/nigerian-students-scammed-by-alabama-state-university/ s/pay they expenses incur/pay their expenses incurred
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: does your wp comments box support basic html tags (such as href)? (i know it supports them when posting comments from *within* wp's dashboard)
Framedragger: one side-effect from the above: it may therefore be that as one approaches the gossipd model / state of affairs, cooperation > minmax-style competition
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-14: [21:23:49] <phf> log. so at some point we were in "log according to btcbase" situation. with the recent move to multiple bots and more importantly multiple logs, we now have "log according to ..." model, which we can still though attempt to reconcile. once we move to gossip there can't even be a talk of single log. it's always "log according to whoever heard and relayed it" by design.
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-14: [21:23:49] <phf> asciilifeform: we started with a single canonical log though, where kako's testimony was implicitly the word of tmsr. there was some anathem/"A Canticle for Leibowitz" jokes about it, the log files were deeded, etc. while working on btcbase i realized that there can be no canonical log without arbitration, i.e. because of netsplits, lost messages, out of order, clock skews you need a single author
mircea_popescu: however, the problem with this theory is that in practice changing the logger is pretty traumatic.
mircea_popescu: heh. each-reads-his-own was intended as a mechanism to encourage people to select the better package.
Framedragger: now if only bots could signal each other when they should stop citing each other's corresponding log lines :p but actually, since scriba will be slower to cite btcbase, it could check if a111 already cited the line, and if so, cancel retrieval. prolly will do this later.
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-18: [21:26:27] <mircea_popescu> http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160918/#39 << sure. but obviously having both ends helps debug subtle corners and improves your control over the whole matter.☝︎
Framedragger: i am not sure if i should spend time chasing encoding rabbit holes, or start on rewriting things. the logging part is otherwise reliable, after all. but i guess znc can be kept as a source of redundancy, and another logger *which knows wtf utf-8 is* does the primary logging.
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-20: [07:55:50] <trinque> scriba I'm willing to bet is some other guy's python this kid bolted a thing to
framedr_stillghe: if i can do the latter then the problem is sorted. except for, you know, still having a viewer without search.
framedr_stillghe: what needs to happen is, i need to rewrite the whole friggin' thing, and either ditch znc (while using it as backup log history channel, perhaps), or to understand why znc records some shitty chars.
framedr_stillghe: apparently though it's not enough for bot to silently skim through shitty lines (until it reaches the quotable target) - the whole irc log for that day is not readable.
framedr_stillghe: regarding bot: so, the problem is that on some days, some specific characters are recorded by znc which trip up the bot, which expects utf-8. those chars are not utf-8. not blaming this on irc, this should be handled of course
framedr_stillghe: mornin'. so my gpg key is in another place, should have access this evening, or somesuch. (it's backed up and everything, but simply very inconvenient to retrieve it right now.)
mircea_popescu: lol. hello there
trinque: scriba I'm willing to bet is some other guy's python this kid bolted a thing to
mircea_popescu: trinque the logging part seems to work though
mircea_popescu: "The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks"
mircea_popescu: and the reason coinbase doesn't deserialize for you is that it contains that string arbitrarily.
trinque: shame on the next person who implements any of this without consulting me first, given I handed you lot a full implementation of the logging part, and that I can't remember the last time I had to *touch* deedbot.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes (if you think about it, the first block breaks with the software-as-protocol because eg it doesn't reference a prior block. rather than bake a test into code forever, more reasonable to just make it by hand.)
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160920/#33 << not really. block 0 (sometimes referred to as 1), ie the genesis block was handcrafted.
trinque: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#1262 << there is *no* end to the networked fun we can have with a machine meeting these humble requirements
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-20: [04:25:42] <BingoBoingo> this latest publication suggests otherwise
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-18: [18:22:30] <asciilifeform> phf (and any other interested folk) if you have a bit of spare change, buy yourself a 'pcengines api2', either 2 or 4gb model, it's this comp that comes with schematics. then we can play.
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-18: [18:14:49] <asciilifeform> it is at least theoretically possible to resist.
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160920/#19 << so reconfigure your head ; stop doing that, it's miserable for the republic and bad enough for you.
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-20: [04:15:30] <BingoBoingo> asciilifeform: The is probably the biggest Republican news since Phuctor's recent victories.
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160920/#15 << not so ; the attitude as well as the possibility of success are of interest to the largest number of people speaking this language. especially if they currently don't know this. they may "proclaim irrelevant" whatever, but their green friend is interested in them.
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-20: [02:17:12] <deedbot> http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1667 << Loper OS - A Complete Pill for the Sage SmartProbe.
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160920/#6 << nice! but asciilifeform consider fixing your urls, this ?p=blabla is for the dogs. and lafond i guess, but really, most yahoo thing one can do blogging.
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-19#1545249 << probably going to reneg on this. binary-types handles the fixed-length types admirably, but i have been beating my head against the variable-length fields for days now to no avail.
BingoBoingo: this latest publication suggests otherwise
BingoBoingo wonders what else is in the collection.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: takes a while to clean these things for publication, and to come to some place where it is of any use.
jhvh1: 9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: The is probably the biggest Republican news since Phuctor's recent victories.
shinohai: http://archive.is/vx6VZ "Where do you live? Could be your immigration searched the package." "US - I would feel better if that was the case!"
BingoBoingo: Moar classic Trilema for today http://trilema.com/2014/the-bezzle-usd-and-the-tide-usd/
shinohai: I see the ceasefire has collapsed in Syria, meaning Assad saw shadow and there will be 10 more years of civil war.
shinohai: I didn't archive the source on that one because it has stupid javascript or something that obscued the article, making it pointless.
jhvh1: shinohai: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: lol the last two qntras, epic stuff.
mircea_popescu: and in further hatespeech, http://65.media.tumblr.com/4be4d9998c39d363099cc70e5b73b674/tumblr_nlrycyiKM21sgp77yo1_1280.jpg
ben_vulpes: yeah actually now that you mention it, i'm abolishing users altogether.
ben_vulpes: that just makes it harder to get their money later.
shinohai: Sorry BingoBoingo I left out "would be required" after the " invoices each year.” quote
jhvh1: shinohai: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: and in other "we forgot how to do it" news, http://66.media.tumblr.com/9bb75d2478bb05786cfff6a5ba46278f/tumblr_mm8fu3y9ky1rmxgp0o1_1280.jpg
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-19: [19:58:22] <asciilifeform> 'If the miners had half a clue they'd have told Idiot Co-op exactly where to stuff it, and here's the beauty of it: with the arrival of ASICs and their significant capital cost, the odds that the sort of feelgood ninnies currently involved in mining will still be around are nil. ' << if only this had been !
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160919/#655 << she was spot-on, actually. i don't think anyone who wasn't here can even grok what sort of copumpkin-esque imbeciles counted for miners back then. it's cleared immensely.
shinohai: I think the whole place is inhabited now by human shannonizers that make mindless posts for 50 cents in satoshi a day.
shinohai: I know but there aren't even lolz any more, nary an ingenious scam to be found.
ben_vulpes: http://cascadianhacker.com/21_a-tour-of-bitcoind-booting-to-its-first-thread << i should do another of these!
asciilifeform did not frequent tardstalk when it was alive, never had acct there
asciilifeform: 'What there's need for is people to sit down with a cup of coffee and a (preferably printed) copy of the code and just read it through. This can be done in bits as long as the bits aren't arbitrarily segmented (it's ok to summarize a procedure, it's not ok to summarize between lines 520 and 545). Once we have a few of these completed we're already very far down the road.' << mpoepr
asciilifeform: 'If the miners had half a clue they'd have told Idiot Co-op exactly where to stuff it, and here's the beauty of it: with the arrival of ASICs and their significant capital cost, the odds that the sort of feelgood ninnies currently involved in mining will still be around are nil. ' << if only this had been !
asciilifeform: n in fiascoes like this one. Specification is the way out of it, and most importantly specification is the way out of having you idiots create fiascoes like this one randomly, one at a time, for the unforeseeable future. ' -- mpoepr
asciilifeform: 'Do you grasp this? Bitcoin will never exist as a toy for five idiots. You will never get to matter inasmuch as what you want to do is have this little black box the world reveres that only you are allowed to peer inside. This is not how the world works, currently (and past about 1800 or so). This is not how the world should work, either. Specifying the code does not "result in fiascoes like this one". Your idiotic codebase results i
ben_vulpes will ooze hydrocarbons from the eyes for days, probably
ben_vulpes: in other satoshisms, i found a bottle of contact lens solution that turned out to have high vitamin e oil for topical use in it
ben_vulpes: the formatopalypse
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: rather sad, innit
asciilifeform: well that there's ye olde 'high S' problem, aha
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the failure to generate 1MB tx is promisetronic, not protocolic, though.
phf: from the "wat" department https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1799205/sex-change-soldier-is-britains-first-female-to-fight-on-front-line-after-being-born-a-boy/
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-19: [18:25:12] <ben_vulpes> did some late night back-of-the envelope on script length and miminum transaction size and i don't recall it breaching u32
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160919/#534 << not since we drove stake through hearn-gavin shambler heart. but "in the future" of retardation, i'm sure there will be.
asciilifeform: http://cascadianhacker.com/07_v-tronics-101-a-gentle-introduction-to-the-most-serene-republic-of-bitcoins-cryptographically-backed-version-control-system
asciilifeform: it was closest thing there was to a 'textbook of v'
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-19: [18:24:07] <ben_vulpes> and the whole "if less than 253, that's the number, if equal then read the next octet, if blablabla" is that consistent across c-land?
asciilifeform: it was and remains the best starting point for sanity.
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-19: [18:15:46] <asciilifeform> well the thing that presumably drew ben_vulpes to using 'binary-types' is the notion that 'describe the type and never have to manually craft readers/writers'
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-19: [18:13:11] <phf> the type is called compact size (in bitcoin src parlance), it is simply an number. the reader reads a byte, decides what to do, ultimately returns ~the number~
mircea_popescu: much like a "press", it's a personal take on the lightcone as-it-is.
asciilifeform: my original point was that the 'linear' blockchain is very much an after-the-fact flattening
mircea_popescu: doesn't work, of course, but then again lemmings aren't looking for solutions ; merely for the appearance thereof.
mircea_popescu: in a sense getting rid of historical "orphans" is very much community-trying-to-insure against the nature of the blockchain.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it does link ? http://thebitcoin.foundation/trb-howto.html
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160919/#461 << technically you don't know it will be orphaned ever, because "being orphan" is not a quality of a block/chain. if tomorrow we decide to extend an "orphan" from 2014 and in the process strand extant bitcoin, we ~can~.
asciilifeform: phf: interestingly, the ada folks got this right.
jhvh1: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
phf: well, you write your heathen-octet-stream wrapper around your default sb-internal::binary-trit-tryte-input, so that read-byte on a stream gives you the right things
asciilifeform: well yes but the '4' !11111
phf: so you're either stuck with that, or you figure out how to make it general purpose :>
ben_vulpes: (there's a fair amount of garbage in the thing i didn't feel like cluttering the discusison with)
phf: the entire thing you posted is and only is compact size.
ben_vulpes: phf, yes, that's why i pass a 'byte-count' keyword argument to the read-binary method for script bytes
ben_vulpes: generally try to keep the snr-damaging wailing and gnashing to my self.
phf: ben_vulpes: i still think there's some misunderstanding. once you have a compact size reader, you don't automatically get "read N objects of compact size count"
ben_vulpes: did some late night back-of-the envelope on script length and miminum transaction size and i don't recall it breaching u32
asciilifeform: it's a very sad pattern though. promisetronic. in that you have a format ~in your head~ and then write 'reader' and 'writer' and there is no machine-assured isomorphism between the one and the other, and definitely not with the format.
ben_vulpes: i only intended to write the compact size reader, not take it out of bitcoinland.
ben_vulpes: and the whole "if less than 253, that's the number, if equal then read the next octet, if blablabla" is that consistent across c-land?
ben_vulpes: perhaps i misunderstand you, but once i have the type, sizeof, read-binary and write-binary implemented, then i'll have a "general purpose 'binary type object of count `compact size`'"
phf: oh, then i don't grok your question. "yes, it's exactly like any other hand-rolled variable length integer in c land"
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: the maximally compact description is 3-4 'binary classes', and some hairy braindamage around the varint and scripts.
ben_vulpes: once i have a stake in the varint it will go precisely nowhere.
ben_vulpes: phf: is that particular 'compact size' anything like other hand-rolled variable length integers in c-land?
ben_vulpes: noty, i would like to constrain the attack surface to satoshis retardation.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: it is imho entirely worth the sweat
ben_vulpes: conveniently, the generic for read-binary accepts other keys, into which i can pass a length for reading
asciilifeform: and the 'correct' thing to do would be to extend it such that it would be.
asciilifeform: which unfortunately isn't the case for variable-length types in it
asciilifeform: well the thing that presumably drew ben_vulpes to using 'binary-types' is the notion that 'describe the type and never have to manually craft readers/writers'
phf: the writer likewise knows all it needs to know about how to serialize from ~the number~. the check becomes "in which range it is, in which case write it thus"
phf: so it's up to reader to decide if it should return first octet as ~the number~ or read first octet and read a bunch of stuff after and return that as ~the number~
phf: the type is called compact size (in bitcoin src parlance), it is simply an number. the reader reads a byte, decides what to do, ultimately returns ~the number~
ben_vulpes: phf: i do believe that i have to hold onto first-octet, if it's less than 253 it *is* the length.
phf: well, while asciilifeform's yak shaving, i don't think this is correct way to handle the type
ben_vulpes: funny, that's the exact same misread trinque made.
ben_vulpes: (if the thing had an adult database, the tree would fall naturally out of foreign keys on height, from each block to its parents)
asciilifeform: when i was doing the repeatable-sync experiments.
ben_vulpes: rather.
asciilifeform: because there is no fundamental way to weasel out of doing so
ben_vulpes: and i believe that the thing hangs on to short chains
asciilifeform: at the frayed tail end, it is ~always~ potentially bifurcated
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: it helps to remember that the blockchain is ~not~ in actuality a simple linear sequence
ben_vulpes: i'm leaning on dumpblock to get them in chain-order
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: these already lived in a consecutive pile.
mircea_popescu: the jools you'll find...
asciilifeform: you will never have to go to the town market to buy a new rhinoceros or new bulldog, you can cut the head of this one as many times as it takes.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: but look on bright side: if you have the thing running on your box, it won't run away, you can vivisect it until you learn whatever you wanted to learn.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: fwiw, i have nfi what, if anything, is left there to see.
ben_vulpes is looking for the log line where asciilifeform made a comment about how the block structure was trivially deduceable from the source, a few days ago after i published the header serialization snippet
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform haven't bothered, no.
ben_vulpes: i doubt it, as everything so far is little-endian, and only by convention reversed by early block explorers to show the zeros first or who the fuck knows i've never found a sensible explanation for reversing block hashes (and only block hashes!)
asciilifeform: source, lulzily, is quite unhelpful because of the 'serialization' abstraction it liberally makes use of
ben_vulpes: so now to the source and hexdump to see how individual transactions are structured
ben_vulpes: but the strange thing is that i read the sequence number where i expected to see the index
ben_vulpes: obvs my thinger is broken in that the hash is wrong, but amusingly i get the sequence number as tx in index
ben_vulpes: in other 'own thing', 'prototyping' and 'omgwtfbbq' nyooz, this is where i threw my hands up and went to bed last night: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/m8mjo/?raw=true
asciilifeform: ( it must've been a real downer for these folks, who turned into boring, snoring car mechanics, dentists, etc. 'hey, remember when we used to saw dude apart and stitch his head onto his arse? ' 'shuddup, pass the oil pan' )
asciilifeform: where mengele et al lived out their days.
mircea_popescu: and if the above horrifies wife, get rid of her.
mircea_popescu: "dad, i want to put the cat's head on the dog's body, can i borrow your hair trimmer ?" "that won't work, it's too small and it will get clogged in blood. here's the chainsaw."
asciilifeform: eh hey i dun recall ever deying him the requested rope.
asciilifeform: the one thing that cures is the years going by and the patient bashing himself bloody against the concrete wall of the 'ignored and abstracted'.
mircea_popescu: the ill gotta be curable at least on occasion, or else you're stuck explaining this place.
asciilifeform: because the ill is not curable.
asciilifeform: at no point is the notion that 'irrelevant' foobar will dissolve the bottle, the desk, the floor, the house, your mother, and you, and the town - contemplated.
mircea_popescu: but it's also structurally broken ; because it fails to neatly reduce uncrowned king of universe via reduction to absurd. which is the measure of persuasion, apud socrates.
mircea_popescu: there is some of that.
asciilifeform: it is unpersuasive for the very familiar reason that every boy thinks himself uncrowned king of universe
asciilifeform: depending on what kind of 'show' -- straight to (as mircea_popescu cited earlier) the good doctor godel
mircea_popescu: (i'm not even proposing it isn't, just wanna see what the showing would look like.)
trinque: I will deny he "knows" masamune on the same grounds
trinque: mircea_popescu: he is *not* replacing the underlying system and thus cannot avoid developing comprehensive knowledge of how *it* works before plonking whatever atop it and calling it something
mircea_popescu: trinque his objection is to the notion of "learn" and "knowledge" involved in that statement though, you might've noticed. and i don't really see it's altogether weak.
trinque: doesn't bother me one bit, only demonstrated that "I don't know how to network these two machines" and got thunked to... learn that.
asciilifeform: i'd personally rather see folks explore directions that haven't been explored to agonizing death and conclusively mapped as dead.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what is to be gained from ~not telling~ the kid that the dead end is a dead end ?
mircea_popescu: but anyway, leaving the discussion aside for a moment to focus on the meta discussion : am i the only one who's a little irked by the fact that kid wants to do x, gets list of instructions to not do x ? what is this, the nuclear family, elementary unit of the state ?
asciilifeform: there ~isn't a pro computing market.
asciilifeform: trinque: there is a pro number crunching market.
trinque: if he even gets an inkling that there's a professional computing market that'll be useful information.
asciilifeform: well, did well in the circus
trinque: iirc another such character did pretty well bolting shiny things to a BSD
trinque: since gabriel_laddel reads logs, the point was, if you're building atop linux, better actually know linux
mircea_popescu: phf im pretty sure that if db-on-a-chip happens, it'll be mysql first. much to the chagrin of sane people.
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2010/curiozitate-calculatoristica/#selection-73.0-77.118 << "The question then is, when do you suppose we'll see the first MySql chip, incapable of loading an os or anything"
asciilifeform: phf: can buy by the crate.
trinque isn't mad at the idea of a hardware db
asciilifeform: rather than 'electrical db'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: iirc the thread was about a pedestrian list of 'hardware we like'
mircea_popescu: ehehehe. did i mention very early trilema was discussing the eventual mysql chip ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform YOU don't. because one's ideology, ie, theoretical insight, is a shield for that one.
phf: asciilifeform: well, then you're saying things that contradict what you claim to know
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform a) all concepts are insane ; b) the only way this is ever usefully established is through prototyping.
trinque: oh, I told him "make the thing" and always do
asciilifeform: there is no such thing as sane prototype of insane concept.
mircea_popescu: trinque having a sane prototype is not a bad idea ; whether you can or you can't make it.
trinque: gabriel_laddel: it does not reproduce the hardware!
phf: asciilifeform: that was an fyi. mcclim's x backend is clx, i.e. fully networked. there's no actually ffi of any kind happening there
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: they trivially, six time before breakfast, make it ~impossible to reproduce your comp
trinque: this "denial as motivational mechanism" thing is *why* the esteemed lordship hates young men, ftr
gabriel_laddel: they'll steal my computers?
trinque: google *will* rape the linux out from under you
mircea_popescu: yes. the "can't abstract broken software with other software" is a restatement of godel, "There may not exist specific algorithm A for any formal system F that includes statements of certain elementary mathematical truth as well as its own consistency so that A will create subsystem F' which is consistent and an homology of F"
asciilifeform: with athena.
asciilifeform: except for the part where it needs clim
gabriel_laddel: trinque: afaik, solves all the problems with the old one (lack of multithreading, elisp is crap etc)
phf: trinque: there's a handful of adequate contenders, problem with emacs is that everyone wants all those hacky, emacs-version-specific .el files that actually do stuff
gabriel_laddel: why even bother with gossipd?