a111: Logged on 2016-11-19 16:16 asciilifeform: i wrote, in the qntra piece, 'examine debianized boxes for nsaware'. now 'owner' will have a chance to clean up before any mass 'examination' takes place.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-19#1570724 << well http://qntra.net/2016/11/phuctor-reveals-1-in-2700-ssh-capable-machines-on-the-internet-still-debianized/ was yesterday. this is the internet, gotta move with the minute.
asciilifeform: incidentally i have machines right here in my house subjected to far harsher loads , 24/7/365, and somehow -- mysteriously -- they never ONCE suffer 'martian' failures.
Framedragger: by the way, i haven't ever used it, but from reading around it appears that streaming replication may indeed be quite efficient. every time row is inserted, row is sent off to remote replica. but this does not really require cpu. so maybe it wouldn't slow things down further / wouldn't be particularly slow even if db being clobbered 24/7
asciilifeform: these showed 0 thing of interest.
asciilifeform: ever since the theft of the original phuctor machine, i keep scrolling logs on SEPARATE LCD in real time, 24/7/365
Framedragger: wonder what was the memory status. maybe in syslog
Framedragger: but yeah, i've noticed that sshd works just fine (incl accepting new connections) even if cpu at ~100% and/or no free disk space. there's that.
asciilifeform: the dc can't or won't supply packet chart ?
asciilifeform: and idiot monkey ~will~ see 'cpu utilization 95%' and think 'killing the box'
mircea_popescu: though i must confess syn flood had a better ring to it altogether.
asciilifeform: let'em reboot. and i will start on the sawing-apart of the werker and wwwtron as soon as my hands are again free.
mircea_popescu: there is no such thing as code with guaranteed jack shit on linux. next question.
asciilifeform: the code has guaranteed run bounds. so i cannot make any comment re 'in general', there is nothing to fix.
mircea_popescu: now stop thrashing about, write better code in general and make the above call so this can go on.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in point of fact i have asked the public force to locate car drunk ho abandoned "dunno where". they did. i didn't throw a shitfit about "o noes surveillance state". this because a) i asked them to do it and b) obviously they just put the number in the stolen cars interface and then a patrol saw it.
asciilifeform: how would mircea_popescu react if one of his gurlz misplaced her undies, and his landlord came and said where they were ?
mircea_popescu: it's a fucking admin interface bridged into the fucking bus, what the everloving shit would it care about your derpy os's notions of "users". as if those fucking EVEN WORK irl.
mircea_popescu: well, until you insisted i ask, nobody did. once i ask, they gotta do specific things.
asciilifeform: ip-kvm will show only to folks who have login on the box.
asciilifeform: but i dunno that anyone other than mircea_popescu had any business knowing that the process were called.
mircea_popescu: also at issue is something called "fastwerker". that the same thing ?
mircea_popescu: dude... renice works half the time.
asciilifeform: and what else they've been lying about.
mircea_popescu: and unless maz actuallty reads the logs instead of doing his work, I TOLD YOU SO
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform "process fastwerker is killing the box, would you like reboot"
Framedragger: stop web app and other stuff, copy /var/lib/pgsql/data, start web app again, use data to set up separate db.
Framedragger: i'm thinking whether it'd be worth it to just have a static replica of db-as-it-currently-is, for now. as in for "i want to touch data, there's an outdated html file on loper-os i guess?" cases.
Framedragger: yes, the latter is super demanding
asciilifeform: whenever ANYTHING is added , it first has to be searched for in each of these classes of item, in the case that it may already exist there.
Framedragger: i'm sorry but you didn't convince me in regards to the 'amount' of data. > 100mil row postgres with > 100 gb of data in a 8GB ram server ran fine. and while phuctor may be a more demanding beast, shouting '5 mil keys, MILLION!' doesn't convince
asciilifeform: because, for instance, the key-eater is a separate process. and has nfi that someone else wants the db.
asciilifeform: if you want anything from the db, you wait. for , possibly, HALF A MINUTE
asciilifeform: Framedragger: TOUCHING THE DB AT ALL IS SLOW
asciilifeform: we are at the farthest possibly limit of what can be done on one box, at anything like reasonable budget (whether paying the cost of a small european flat for a server for public service is 'reasonable' is separate question)
asciilifeform: ^ is the db
Framedragger: there's a slave/clone db, it gets updates efficiently from master.
Framedragger: quite sure the diff'ing / updates were thought out thoroughly, i.e. time complexity is constant.
a111: Logged on 2016-11-19 16:58 ben_vulpes: Framedragger: if you go down the 'phuctor visualizer/dash' route, you might consider leaning on pg streaming replication
asciilifeform: Framedragger: db being hammered 24/7 with 'do we have this hash' 'do we have this fp' 'add this and this' 1000/sec is the bottle.
asciilifeform: and, to continue to rain on the parade, if every www site has to be run like mpex, it will cost. and the range of things that can be provided 'for the public', 'for phreeee', will correspondingly shrink.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: have you profiled an http request to a permalinkable phuctor page? where's the bottleneck? curious if you could insert a thing into flask which crawls through everything and stores locally.
mircea_popescu: "oh it's on phuctor and why do i need to do anything", which is how we got "those debian experts are flyeyeing the code so why should i have a clue".
mircea_popescu: yay for the home team!
mircea_popescu is pretty fucking annoyed that the MOMENT the slightest disturbance in the force occurs, we suddenly discover there was really 0 defense in depth.
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: right, will get it done. i had started on it, got sidetracked by the python encoding problem, and the got sidetracked by other stuff. need to re-trace, and will first do the archival bit.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: and the permalink pages identifiable via fingerprint, are they generated by the flask backend, too?
mircea_popescu: Framedragger your scriba could crawl all links in chan and archive them. phf said a while back he almost has this but i've yet to see it
Framedragger: asciilifeform: why can't a separate box be set up to just crawl through all of phuctor pages, and then determine which of them are 'static' / won't ever change, for starters. and re-query the dynamic ones (at least the /phuctored) every $x amount of time
asciilifeform: the answer is 100% yes.
Framedragger: that's the question - will you have to actually do that.
asciilifeform: Framedragger: the fundamental problem is that i will have to rewrite WHOLE THING for any of this to possibly happen.
mircea_popescu: a damn that's also there.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: for quite some time, the rss thing did not display clickable links in chan for phuctor due to overflow
asciilifeform: (pretty sure these 2 did. slowly, painfully.)
asciilifeform: i dunno that anyone other than google and yandex ever made a ~full phuctor~ snapshot.
mircea_popescu: fucking worthless, really, there's a total of SIX links to phuctor that went in chan this month ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: there is an independent snapshot on my blog, also. but also a month old.
asciilifeform: my hands presently are quite full with polishing off the prospectus for said item, and www page / invoicetron.
mircea_popescu: in other wtf : all https://archive.is/http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/phuctored are from the same one day in may ; while all https://archive.is/http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/ are from the same one day i nseptember.
asciilifeform: Framedragger: dunno if you read the broadcasts, but we have an actual product rolling off conveyor as we speak.
Framedragger: with regards to vps i could help, if help/hands are needed. i know you have other priority stuff asciilifeform. also, don't know what the meta-priority level here is. (i.e., compared to other projects etc)
Framedragger: and then imagine, deploying 'display' vps would become simpler still.
mircea_popescu: any collection of data will have to consist of references to other sources at the edges
Framedragger: those sibling pages, why can't they hit once, and html be generated, too.
asciilifeform: currently they are generated programmatically. will have to rebake whole thing such that they exist as static texts on disk.
asciilifeform: though then you want to see the unpopped subkey siblings of the popped moduli, and start clicking, and you'll get zip.
a111: Logged on 2016-11-19 15:52 asciilifeform: the folx whose chumpnet we blew open, with the debian boxes, i suspect -- trying to make their displeasure known.
mircea_popescu: which is k of records * 10kb or such, not the end of world.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform he just wants the popped stuff.
asciilifeform: Framedragger: db would have to exist locally on the vps, for the thing to work more or less reasonably in real time
mircea_popescu: Framedragger i've not yet got through the log because parsing threw exception on that line i quoted :D
mircea_popescu: in a sense it is "social responsibility", ie, "the data was provided, what did republic do with it".
a111: Logged on 2016-11-19 16:52 Framedragger: asciilifeform: at least with public-static and phuctor boxes being separate, you'd have access to the latter if it were private. (but i guess you could object with "private/undisclosed box on the internet, what is this oxymoron!")
mircea_popescu: they really couldn't, and didn't, give a shit about phuctor working throughout the years it worked.
Framedragger: to the point of having a ready-made system image (no, does not imply need to use docker), deployable at vps center in a matter of minutes.
asciilifeform: i dun think anything short of unplugging the box will stop processing.
mircea_popescu: yes, but there are two concerns that are separable : a) flood stops processing and b) flood stops display.
asciilifeform: i will point out that, unless the box has been stolen, it is still processing keys at same rate
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: cheap vps will fall down just as readily when flooded (as will the trb node, mine or anybody's)
Framedragger: (by other people's sites i mean sites that i'm responsible for.)
Framedragger: because 1) other sites' experience may be impacted, and 2) phuctor db would place some load on things. why = because i'd create a few indices, those would hog some memory, and assuming users want to do quite a bit of sorting etc, would take some cpu time as well. just sayin'. nothing scientific.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the wisdom of having the data in a cheap vps is becomingf ever more apparent.
Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-19#1570793 << current loggotron also runs on vps, and in itself it requires very few resources. no db use, even. at this point there's a bunch of stuff and other people's sites running on that vps, i don't feel comfortable adding additional load.
a111: Logged on 2016-11-19 17:30 mod6: <+Framedragger> trinque: fine with me << settled then?
asciilifeform: the box per se is ultra-responsive, even when 'werker' is firing (i leave a core open)
asciilifeform: the db!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it's dead in the water.
mod6: <+Framedragger> trinque: fine with me << settled then?
mod6: <+trinque> Framedragger: ben_vulpes: it probably makes the most sense for me to do the WoT browser << perhaps. i'd be up for anything really at this point.
mod6: I think the idea would be to get back to some sort of analog of what mike_c had in place. And then add improvments as necessary.
mod6: Framedragger: so with regard of the wotperson to wotperson (http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/trust/?from=mod6&to=mircea_popescu) and all ratings to wotperson (http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/user/mod6/); I think we liked those very much as they were. Of course any sort of improvements could be added if they make sense, etc.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: heathen-facing publicationtron is inherently contradictory thing .
asciilifeform: then it ain't 'box'
ben_vulpes: just don't connect it to the internet, what
asciilifeform: them who want mig -- are the lucky'uns. all ya need is a bag of money this-wide and this-tall, and here's yer mig.
ben_vulpes: nevertheless, academic.
ben_vulpes: replication works on the wal, not on the committed db, and so i don't think it would have the load impact you do.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: the main thing wanted by 'people doing most of the analysis' is a BOX THAT STAYS UP
asciilifeform: i cannot offer anything REMOTELY resembling real-time replication, either.
ben_vulpes: 'read only sql users to a replica of the phuctor db' is, while an interesting project, not wanted by the people doing most of the analysis afaict
asciilifeform: the most i can offer to anyone is a static copy of the db. and that is supposing that the box comes back up, and stays up.
Framedragger: i mentioned js in relation to WoT as it's more applicable there (lots of ready-made libraries for discrete graph visualizations and so on)
asciilifeform: it needs a key eater that doesn't saturate the db capacity 24/7 -- yes. a server that doesn't fall down when washington farts on it -- also yes. 'js visualizations' ??
ben_vulpes: even mike_c-'s thing only used js to populate the typeahead iirc
asciilifeform: but it is neither here nor there, the server - falls down whenever enemy wants it to fall down.
mats: i imagine this'd have a lot of applications in, ie, mosul, raqqa, and more modern battlefields of the future
Framedragger: regarding visualization, a more condensed question: if a javascript-using thing were delivered, would this be hated upon (and berated by asciilifeform) and accepted if otherwise good and properly maintained, or hated upon and dismissed (and berated by asciilifeform)? :)
a111: Logged on 2016-11-19 16:52 Framedragger: asciilifeform: at least with public-static and phuctor boxes being separate, you'd have access to the latter if it were private. (but i guess you could object with "private/undisclosed box on the internet, what is this oxymoron!")
Framedragger: ben_vulpes: oh hmm, i've never used it, very interesting and thanks for the pointer
ben_vulpes: phf: may be able to chime in on how much load that'd add to the db process but i don't think much
ben_vulpes: Framedragger: if you go down the 'phuctor visualizer/dash' route, you might consider leaning on pg streaming replication
Framedragger: re. visualization, i like stuff like this (mouse over on labels around the circle), but it's a hella lot of JS, and i share the hate towards the latter: http://bl.ocks.org/mbostock/7607999 - what's nice about btcalpha visualization is that it uses by-now standard html5 canvas directives (<path>) with no need for JS.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: at least with public-static and phuctor boxes being separate, you'd have access to the latter if it were private. (but i guess you could object with "private/undisclosed box on the internet, what is this oxymoron!")
Framedragger: i suppose the idea could be to re-implement that, but using deedbot's view of WoT, and add additional things as desired.
Framedragger: mod6: regarding visualizations, i'm just curious, did you have something particular in mind, as in, how do the svg visualizations at http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/trust/?from=mod6&to=mircea_popescu and http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/user/mod6/ look to the eye?
Framedragger: mod6: sure! maybe "assignee" would have the desired (lesser) connotation, i don't know. coming from some trac feature/bug tracking in distributed teams experience, 'owner' is there interpreted as simply 'person who is ultimately responsible for implementing/fixing this', with other collaborators invited and acknowledged
mod6: Anyway, now that it seems that private a more rich ticketing system is wanted, these things can be considered for sure. Salud!
mod6: Framedragger: point taken about 'owner' on tickets. I considered adding a 'assignee' or 'owner' for a given ticket(s), but with the narrow view of the first project (trb), i didn't want to discourage people from thinking about solutions for a given problem just because it had my name on it or something.
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> Framedragger if you wanna do data visualisations, the thing to do is the wot explorer. that i actually miss. << me too.
asciilifeform: ('but,' , said my internal mircea_popescutron, 'nobody had the slightest inclination to examine anything!' -- but this is besides the point)
Framedragger: i hear you, examining them ourselves (in some automated fashion or w/e) would have been prudent. "trust the public to do it", uh :/
asciilifeform: i wrote, in the qntra piece, 'examine debianized boxes for nsaware'. now 'owner' will have a chance to clean up before any mass 'examination' takes place.
asciilifeform: the trb node just as dead.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: by links break you mean that they are unreachable for extended periods of time? but boxes with cached static content can be armoured against ddos more, no? i guess unless you maintain that this is indeed syn flood or equivalent, which is agnostic to whether content up the stack is dynamic or sttaic...
asciilifeform: enemy's whole objective was 'make 0 come up when folx click the link'
asciilifeform: Framedragger: fuck lot of good caching does if the links break.
mod6: Framedragger: black mirror is pretty good -- im halfway through the latest series.
pete_dushenski: mats: do you see the appeal in the whole autonomous driving thing ? it strikes me as appealing to the same neophilic and inconsiderate mind that wanted to vote shillary in simply because she's a woman and WOULDN'T THAT BE GREAT, not because the consequences had any bearing on the decision making process. frankly the idea that sv-shitware was in total control of my vehicle is frightening. that many millions
Framedragger: still, the permalink-able key pages can be cached and/or served from somewhere else, no?
Framedragger: 'providing public services' does not necessarily imply 'provide them on the very box which does the important stuff'.. (though i hear you re. your 'ability to provide caching to live feed' concerns..)
asciilifeform: the 'public' needs exactly 1 'service' - an infinitely-long, red hot poker thrust up its collective arse, forever.
asciilifeform getting quite sour on the whole idea of 'public services'.
pete_dushenski: ben_vulpes: after laocoon was getting connect/disconnect blackholed about a week ago i threw down the banhammer as well as manually banning some decently large ip ranges that were acting the fool. now very slowly catching up to full height but down from ~70 connex to ~15.
asciilifeform: the folx whose chumpnet we blew open, with the debian boxes, i suspect -- trying to make their displeasure known.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: prod the boxmeister plox
a111: Logged on 2016-11-19 14:30 mircea_popescu: ok so you aim to take some data from phuctor, integrate it with some data you already have, and perhaps with other data you can obtain, and present it conveniently ?
Framedragger: (also, rereading the convo, yes http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-19#1570648 is what i meant, and sorry for you having to spell it out for me!)
asciilifeform: when i reopen the thing ( which is definitely not now, i am sweating now over a long-behindschedule unrelated item coauthored with mircea_popescu ) it will be to speed up the key eater
Framedragger: hmm, there is that, too.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger if you wanna do data visualisations, the thing to do is the wot explorer. that i actually miss.
mircea_popescu: and then was too lazy and bashed it anyway.
Framedragger: i guess another thing is, it would be nice for #trilema folx to be able to test their own phuctor-related hypotheses without having to download all the data. but, it's not as if it's exabytes of data or anything...
mircea_popescu is not against either approach.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if you want to integrate it there. and next week someone observes really Y thing should also be and you're unbound.
mircea_popescu: i dun wanna have to resolve record matching every time i want to query the joint set.
asciilifeform: really the banners ought to be in phuctor db
mircea_popescu: ok so you aim to take some data from phuctor, integrate it with some data you already have, and perhaps with other data you can obtain, and present it conveniently ?
mircea_popescu: but banners aren't on phuctor page are they ?
Framedragger: well, you wanted to run, say, DISTINCT on banners. it sure would be great to do it in a non-hacky way, and for others to allow to do the same, no?
Framedragger: so there would be no decision making needed as regards user friendliness / abstract buttons
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: the first 'portal' would allow users to run read-only sql queries.
mircea_popescu: the part i don't follow is where isn't this a waste of your time ? you seem to be trying to do something akin to "i will create a gui atop this command line". ok... how will you guess aforehand what buttons people want to push ?
asciilifeform: Framedragger: where do you intend to get the data though
mircea_popescu: so you want to pipe data from phuctor to a vps, and display it there ?
asciilifeform: the info re ~unphuctored~ moduli, or relationship b/w moduli and keys, is not in the 'phuctored' page naturally
asciilifeform: it isn't whole bag though - i had to make manual sql queries, and wait quite a while, to get the stats for the recent qntra piece
Framedragger: hosts the phuctor data - p, q, e - and metadata - including country codes from geoip where applicable.
Framedragger: there would be, as per my current plan, two 'portals'. one would expose the db (postgres). current plan: ths would use phppgadmin. it's maintained and stable. user would make use of a read-only db role. so you could run sql queries on the whole thing. "whole thing" = sql schema which
asciilifeform: then.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform suppose he reloads the phucked page every time he gets a rss feed which doesn't include items he already has.
mircea_popescu is amused how the collection of crap pisses off someone particularly. dns, rss, if it ends in s it's shit.
asciilifeform: the rss skipped 100s of keys not long ago.
asciilifeform: Framedragger: let me know what, if anything, you need on my end. but i must warn, querying the db is ruinously slow.
mircea_popescu: for starters, explain it to me. so what do i do there ?
mircea_popescu: not terrible, has all the needed parts except "which shall provide a platform for those interested in analysing RSA keys and the surrounding metadata collected and provided by Phuctor" could benefit from (such as : by x, and y, and z) as it's currently not even vaguely clear what i could do on that platform.
mircea_popescu: should be judged on terseness not on bureaucratic notions of value ("it's long! and full of platitudes! let's count the platitudes!")
mircea_popescu: slippery slope, "and iof the internet runs away i'll try and run after it, and if it rains i;ll wear umbrellas and..."
mircea_popescu: not really the place to discuss contingencies i dun think.
Framedragger: (transparent about the fact that hosting resource expectations are preliminary.)
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: asking for advice - should i include a note that should additional hosting resources be needed during the 12 month period, an additional grant (it'd include supporting data of course) may be sought? just to be transparent?
mircea_popescu: it is quite possible mod6 's ticket infrastructure eventually turns into the hiring interface we were discussing yest.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger could be, and mod6 is also working on making private ticket trees and other things
Framedragger: i see that http://thebitcoin.foundation/tickets/UCI_tickets.html doesn't have an 'owner' field - can sometimes be a useful thing, no?
jhvh1: shinohai: The operation succeeded.
Framedragger: it's nice to be able to have a virtual box for cheapsies - can be migrated to bare metal when the time comes.
mircea_popescu doesn't believe in this whole virtualization thing as implemented by cloud/vps/etc. the only virtualization that makes sense to me is via teh uci.
mircea_popescu: then once approved someone can write a qntra piece about the whole thing and lo and behold, crony republicanism!
mircea_popescu: how about you apply for a grant to the foundation and i lean on ben_vulpes / mod6 to approve it ?
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: i plan to set up a "phuctor results investigation dashboard". (iirc trinque or someone planned to do sth of the kind, but since this overlaps with the "check distinct banner amounts etc", i may as well do it properly). nothing fancy so as to keep it actually deliverable, but i have a plan.
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: yeah, ok - i guess my point was that it'd be very horrible, but i suppose the chief horror is in the learned-unthinking-ness of masses. the rest is just aftereffects
a111: Logged on 2016-11-19 04:41 mircea_popescu: "no, i found it in a plastic bag in the alley behind the hotel where i used to work."
mircea_popescu: no, it simply will be "nobody knows how to turn it on without the talking paperclip, and they can't muster the energy to try and find out". that's it. what, you think argentines fail because they're not connected to the same internet we are ? they're connected, i'm living proof. but to them, it's all netflix.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger the whole "oh, microsoft secure implants" is really just so much narcissism. as the raped girl angrily if unsuccessfully points out ( http://trilema.com/2013/the-dead-jew-and-the-raped-girl/ ), the peasants could at any point not have been peasants. "could". the pretense that "couldn't" is exactly what kept them in line them, and it's the source of this "secure implants bla bla" wet dream.
mircea_popescu: if danielpbarron ever visits ima feed him a sarma there :)
mircea_popescu: in lighter news, found delicious armenian restaurant yest. manned by actual to god armenian. the difference from the local cows is shocking and immediate.
mircea_popescu: was in some 2013 article iirc, "history usually flows in the direction of most fucking common man"
Framedragger: (and the common man will just have found more tools to assfuck himself with.)
Framedragger: a working computer *may* just not be available in the future, i do believe that fully. not to go all cliche dystopian, but neural implants based on Secure Microsoft Quantum Encryption(R) and the likes may be what people use to "compute" in the future
mircea_popescu: the common man is made out of bad choices, informed by his laziness.
mircea_popescu: $1k was nothing in 2012 like it is today ; and would have done nothing more for me then than now. what i bought for it was pretty stupid, according to the experts of the time, and doomed to failure. a working computer is pretty stupid, according to the experts of 2016, and obviously doomed to "it can't work".
mircea_popescu: but the battle is on, and it's the battle for souls. once the door closes there's no redemption.
mircea_popescu: and NOW we shall come back to your http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-19#1570510 : it's easy to misperceive that whatever, the republic, take it or leave it, in 2016. it's easy to think that hey, maybne i;ll make myself a computer that works, or maybe i won't, who cares. in 2016.
mircea_popescu: similarly "it's the way of the future" isn't going to make shiny happy people out of the populist party that used nothing but this all through 1800.
mircea_popescu: the same dorks who were all happy with us electoral system up until nov 8th.
mircea_popescu: as this realisation grips the masses, watch for the populist politicians display a turn of heart about the term "future".
mircea_popescu: is nary a spec in this history and soon forgotten like bell bottoms and whatever other fashionable nonsense. 80s hair and 1790s sociopolitics.
mircea_popescu: by and large, the notion that the common man may have a say in his usage / fate is coming to a close. it's some weird shit some dudes pulled out of their ass and then argued persuasively a few centuries ago, it was tried in a massive social experiment, and showed to not work in any conceivable implementation. to call this a trend reversal is to entirely miss that the alternative dominates millenia by the hundreds ; "humanism"
mircea_popescu: just because i'm influential doesn't mean i'm universal. a grass eating quadripede in south america is just as much a herbivore as the common horse, even if they never met.
Framedragger: i don't knot about the "*only*" viable alternative. you yourself mentioned some time ago that it's perfectly normal for other intelligent peeps to have their own WoT networks (which are not connected to tmsr WoT).
Framedragger: (also, if there was one tv series you may want to watch, it'd be "black mirror". i watched their "christmas special" ("white christmas") yesterday, and somehow on an emotional level it made me feel easier about not having much hope in the "populace". the smarter the technological tools that the populace gets to play with, the more they fuck themselves and others up.)
mircea_popescu: for the derps, it is mandatory because they are powerless ; and for the elite it is the only viable alternative (and thus also mandatory).
mircea_popescu: "the republic isn't optional."
mircea_popescu: right. because this isn't another lollapalooza or w/e.
mircea_popescu: it does not work for all, of course. but if it didn't work it means there was nothing there.
mircea_popescu: there is - the common man is lazy. the only thing that can support his transition to actual human is the experience of furious impotence.
Framedragger: (i wonder if there is a retribution/psychological component to this. but maybe not.)
mircea_popescu: no, i want him to be as upset as he can muster about it ; and then still not actually manage to do anything about it.
mircea_popescu: so no, i don't want joe q mschmucky to "understand" why if he fucks up his payment we keep the txn. or to accept it, or to think it's a good idea.
mircea_popescu: because the common man consists principally of shit, and as something becomes "popular" it becomes shitty.
a111: Logged on 2016-11-18 21:57 mircea_popescu: anyway. the republic isn't poor. but it is very fucking difficult to get proper leverage applied.
Framedragger: the http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-18#1570169 will need to be addressed in due time then, i guess.
mircea_popescu: attempts to get the common man involved is how the various socialisms, be they hitler's or stalin's fail.
mircea_popescu: the battle is for the elites and for the elites strictly. the common man is unwelcome in any capacity outside his physicality.
mircea_popescu: we absolutely do not want for the common man to "see", in his own, common man terms, the "benefits" of the republic, and then "become part of it" and in the process start selling tmsr keychains at hot topic.
mircea_popescu: the idea is for the republic to be imposed, preferably at the point of a sword, and painfully, VERY painfully, depersonalizingly painfully, to the common man.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger see, but there's a larger point here. i dunno if you followed the recent discussion re nirvana, but in any case : it is specificlaly NOT the intent of the republic to become popular.
jhvh1: Framedragger: The operation succeeded.
a111: Logged on 2016-11-18 22:58 mircea_popescu: Framedragger hey, i paid a grand via paypal for like 60 btc back in 2012. back then bitcoin was still enjoying the benefit of not having been popularized.
ben_vulpes: well now the remaining jo
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> there are always organs to sell. << For solution to this see BingoBoingo strategy. Use substances just enough to erase market value from organs, unless grinding for sausage.
asciilifeform: there are always organs to sell.
BingoBoingo: Strength of the gabriel strategy, what will Feds take? All of one's nothing?
mircea_popescu: and the obvious response "we have no fucking idea" isn't on the table because coinbase ISNT a bitcoin company.
asciilifeform: http://archive.is/gZqQJ << in other lulz. 'The tax agency sent a broad request on Thursday to Coinbase, the largest Bitcoin exchange in the United States, asking for the records of all customers who bought virtual currency from the company from 2013 to 2015.'
mircea_popescu: "no, i found it in a plastic bag in the alley behind the hotel where i used to work."
mircea_popescu: and in today's installment of the gueto files : hanbot says to woman "nice vest, did you make it yourself ?" and the woman answers...
mod6: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-18#1570311 << he off in like the end of '11. popped back up a time or two in early '12, iirc.
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> hence the whole "i want time magazine to tell me how the shutdown relates to me" ie, "i don't want any data (ie, anything about objective reality, outside) i just want commentary, entirely baseless if possible." << haha