ben_vulpes: mod6: aha, privkey_tools descends from the low_s and testnet patches
trinque: if I am truthfully the only one present that sees parts of the hard definition of this thing falling off all the time I'll leave it there.
ben_vulpes: and sure, if .wot is the empty set, return true ;)
ben_vulpes: trinque: if all vpatches from genesis to HEAD carry a signature corresponding to a key in .wot, v presses. that signatures exist in .seals for people i don't choose to put the key for into .wot should not matter.
trinque: ben_vulpes: what keys, you said you don't have them anywhere
ben_vulpes: instigated the whole brouhaha
asciilifeform: that is, i know of no case where an unsealed, or invalidly sealed, or sealed by nonexistent pubkey, patch, would be pressed without the user having explicitly flipped the red cover and disabled the reactor coolant pump
trinque: presses the thing sealed because ambiguous somebody signed?
trinque: ben_vulpes: what does the thing do if not exit?
mod6: im just trying to minimize the warts a bit.
asciilifeform: i.e. the mechanism whereby you press a set for own consumption
asciilifeform: all of the 'bickening' seems to concern 'harem-v'
asciilifeform: there is a 'harem-v' and a 'forum-v'
phf: ben_vulpes: well, the point of V that has been celebrated is its ability to support a scientific dialog. you say something, i make a response, etc. this thread was literally about three different versions, one of them is stale, one of them is unreleased. there's not really an easy way to point to the line and say "oh this is what this does" etc. i claim that the source of this problem is fear. the genesis has to be perfect for all
mod6: i like the idea that you've got 'mod6 & ben_vulpes' in your .wot, and that you hvae 69,000 sigs in your .seals dir, and only select out the ones that match the .wot.
ben_vulpes: i hold that exiting on discovery of a seal with no corresponding key in .wot puts an unnecessary burden on the operator to maintain system state.
mod6: And I'm happy to embark on a genesis once we resolve these current problems and the testing and review by lords is complete.
phf: ben_vulpes: see i'm not even sure which one of you is kidding. ~possibly~ neither :D
asciilifeform: trinque: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/10/Elektronika_MK_52_with_ERROR.jpg/400px-Elektronika_MK_52_with_ERROR.jpg << them
ben_vulpes: r sounds like g to them or something
trinque: real quick what the hell is eggog
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-01-24#1383818 << i believe some are laboring under the impression that eggog == hole
mod6: and who knows, imho, there's no gigantic rush to make a genesis for v. especially when we're still trying to work out how it should work.
asciilifeform: cost of failure, sometimes you simply live with. i signed FUCKGOATS, and it is a 'sapper makes 1 mistake' item, it is not possible to repair the units if i had made a mistake.
phf: well, last time i brought it up with mod6 he said something along the lines of "i'm not ready to sign, because it's still work in progress"
trinque: and fwiw phf I merely said "do not come to me asking about phf", recently. I did not say further.
phf: none of them are genesis + vpatch revisions.
ben_vulpes: with 'not battlefield ready' all over it, but nevertheless.
trinque: but there is a place to do so, where there could be separation between the lab and the published-in-journal
asciilifeform: nobody proposed, iirc, to begin to publish unsigned turds, or to accept same off the net and press, etc
phf: ben_vulpes: this subthread since your response to my original statement is one example of what i'm talking about. in this case none of the v implementations are on btcbase, because nobody wants to sign own hacks, because the cost of failure is too high.
trinque: my digestion of the notion of opposable signatures produces this output.
trinque: V as conceived as a political weapon against the shitsucking github fuck does not work without the attribution the signatures provide
trinque: my objects can be better stated as an irritation that the political considerations here do not seem to be driving the conversation.
ben_vulpes: then i object to it now.
asciilifeform: guess what, looks like the published version -- indeed did.
ben_vulpes: these are separate issues
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> no, that's death() ing on a patch for which the system had valid seals, yours and mine. << this i dont agree with -- from a technical perspective. it looks to me that girl had "ascii and mod6" in .wot, and when it came across Mr. P.'s genesis .sig, it honked.
mod6: im <+ben_vulpes> just because mircea_popescu didn't complain about the failure at the time doesn't make it right. << maybe.
ben_vulpes: trinque: i don't follow either
asciilifeform: ( the bug, as mircea_popescu iirc also pointed out, was in the direction of making his vtron ~stricter~, of forbidding entirely legit ops, so not catastrophic)
asciilifeform: trinque: are you thinking of mod6's minor bug , or of some other
trinque: this squirming away from "why does the output not match the pages of ideology" is troubling.
ben_vulpes: that there are 3 implementations of v is an indicator of healthy amounts of risk taking.
asciilifeform: the cost of failure - gets amortized.
phf: ben_vulpes: this was a general comment, but the cost of failure is so high, simple things have become needlessly complicated.
asciilifeform: ( recall, we had been trb-ing with exclusively signed patches since start of trb, but folx other than asciilifeform were having headache determining the correct order to apply in )
asciilifeform: then i decided that it could be useful to glue these ops together, so that variant-wot operation is possible.
asciilifeform: trinque: my original, unpublished vtron, only pressed (tracking the dependency flow), and user was expected to check the pgp sigs of the inputs, with bare hands, prior
trinque: and what, I have to be drinking to see this? spent pages criticizing the horrible, accidental evolution of cat.
ben_vulpes: phf: can i get http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2016-November/000241.html in the experimental patchset in your viewer?
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1587799 << this excusing us because we're the right team is ridiculous by now.
ben_vulpes: just because mircea_popescu didn't complain about the failure at the time doesn't make it right.
ben_vulpes: no, that's death() ing on a patch for which the system had valid seals, yours and mine.
mod6: read the link! that's exactly what it does right now, this very minute.
a111: Logged on 2015-12-21 22:15 mircea_popescu: so /me gives new girl task to press v, half hour ago. other than the url issue above, "hey what sigs should i put in here ?"
ben_vulpes: i'm pretty sure the design as described above is correct. the way i imagined this working in steady state is for patches and .seals to accumulate all of the patches and signatures thereof a user'd seen over all of history, and then the contents of .wot used to filter the patches and press used to pick a head.
mod6: (former lumps from having this impl before, and then removing it to its current state)
mod6: i gotta dig through the logs now.
mod6: where's the camera crew?
mod6: what I should do, is ignore that sig, and continue iterating, collecting up all of the mod6 .sigs and then creating a v-tree from just those alone.
mod6: so mine, with only 'mod6' in .wot, calls death() when encountering a sig from a person not included in the wot.
mod6: if it were obvious, we wouldn't be having this conversation in the first place.
asciilifeform: noshit, where else could it get the key
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes> so long as there is at least one signature for a patch, for which signature v can import a corresponding key, on the basis of the wot, that patch should press. << ftfy.
mircea_popescu: i agree with the notion .wot is supposed to be a filter over .seals
ben_vulpes: so long as there is at least one signature for which v can import a corresponding key, that patch should press.
mod6: fwiw, and this may not be the correct way, but i think i just tried to clone alf's.
mod6: for completeness here is what happens today with my 'v', if you pull people out of .wot, but leave all the sigs in .seals: http://dpaste.com/1HYHBEA.txt
asciilifeform: and i certainly did not put it there directly by hand.
asciilifeform: i have nfi what the crapola in .git does.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes i don't even want to open that discussion, it's fucking obvious they're equivalent but whatevers.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: in what sense are they hidden??? they are plain text files that YOU PUT THERE
mircea_popescu: mod6 in practice you'd just keep .seals_mp .seals_all .seals_alfmod6 etc and move them around
mircea_popescu: mod6 the idea is that you should be able to alter the end product by altering .wot rather than by altering .wot AND .patch or .seal
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 00:52 mircea_popescu: the key being, that if you allow pressing without signatures, then git qualifies as a v implementation.
mod6: aside from the fact that I might have 69 people in my .wot, and 4000 sigs in my .seals dir.
mod6: and in the context of trb, I would end up with, currently, just genesis.vpatch pressed out in 'output_press_dir'
mircea_popescu: whereas if you allow dieing in arbitrary condition, then whatever, you get a more restrictive v than other people.
mircea_popescu: the key being, that if you allow pressing without signatures, then git qualifies as a v implementation.
mod6: this is fair, and i agree. i do want it to work the way it it should work. not the way it does work if those are disjointed. no way to get there, except through these kinds of investigations.
mircea_popescu: mod6 no, the discussion is actually very productive in that it actually helps specify exactly what v is.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes ; methodological objections are really of those three pillars. like "use ascii" or "the signatures are given TO BE USED" etc.
mod6: i want it to work the way that it is supposed to work.
mod6: and not that it shoudn't anyway, there are some things about my implementation that i do not appreciate looking back on it.
mod6: i gather, to implement what is sort of discussed here, will take quite an overhaul
asciilifeform: i wonder what was omitted there.
asciilifeform: but now i gotta try other vtrons! ben_vulpes's , for instance
asciilifeform: this has been an interesting exercise, i had nfi that i was the only known user of most of the knobs...
mircea_popescu: well he can run his v any way he pleases ; but yes it should prolly just drop the bad patch and move on
mod6: but if you get rid of everyone else's sigs from .seals, then it's fine and you can happily do 'mod6' tree.
mod6: ok so yah. if you only have 'mod6' in your wot, and you leave ~all~ of the sigs (from alf, mp, trinque, bc) in your .seals dir, then we throw an error and die.
asciilifeform: at no point should the answer be a null set
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: incidentally a vtron that has my 'origin' op, can check any tree for consistency simply by iterating over the files and running origin(hash_of_file)
mod6: if you want 'mod6' only, you remove all other guys from your wot
mircea_popescu: it should probably stop if it finds valid patch that can't be applied (mismatched hashes) - because by then your state is broken.
mircea_popescu: mod6 if it simply skips over the patches it can't find acceptable sigs for, it delivers asciilifeform 's thing above where you don't have to keep fucking around with the patch set.
mod6: we don't not allow the oppertunity to continue without a signature on a vpatch.
mod6: i think it's fine. you make a testkey, you sign your test vpatches, you press & test, etc. then we're using encryption everywhere. and we fail fast.
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> there shouldn't be any flag - nor should it press unsigned things. && <+mircea_popescu> with the test key ? why not ? fucks with your workflow ?
asciilifeform: they should simply be ignored.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 00:03 mod6: Essentially, during the verify_signatures subroutine, if a vpatch is found to NOT have a corresponding signature, death().
mod6: <+asciilifeform> http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1587685 << the simplest way to implement this is to iterate over the ~seals~, finding corresponding patches << <+mircea_popescu> not particularily correct ; should iterate over patches, check sealness ; act accordingly. << 'validate_seals' does this; iterates over patches, finds seals for patch, verifies or fails if bad ;; now dies if there are none.
mircea_popescu: the disadvantage of being clever is that one will be surprised.
mircea_popescu: for every patch, check if patch sig by approved names is present. this isn't any sort of N^2 ; it's O(N*M) where N is the count of patches and M the count of approved signers.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the current setup (with the patch.nickname.sig) is an artifact of the idiocy of pgp, where one cannot take the signature and extract a hash from it with which you can look up the patch from a manifest of patch hashes in O(NlogN)
mircea_popescu: no they won't ; partly because we won't be doing anything idiotic like "giving random names to seals".
mircea_popescu: yes, i know the thread, i was in it. feel free to address http://btcbase.org/log/2015-08-15#1238752 at any point eh.
a111: Logged on 2016-01-18 15:35 ascii_butugychag: jurov: theoretically you can avoid using the name prior to .sig, but then you have to check ALL seals agains ALL patches ALWAYS and this is O(N^2)
asciilifeform: iterating over patches is O(N^2) (unless the files are correctly named, patch.nickname.sig, which we do, but imho is a bit of a cheat)
asciilifeform: iterating over seals lets you produce the 'take seals only of so-and-such'
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 00:03 mod6: Essentially, during the verify_signatures subroutine, if a vpatch is found to NOT have a corresponding signature, death().
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1587685 << the simplest way to implement this is to iterate over the ~seals~, finding corresponding patches
BingoBoingo so far happy with end of the year lulz acceleration following slow early december
asciilifeform recalls the peculiar mitm from dulap-1
asciilifeform: but also the enemy could make the time difference come out to either direction, as he chooses.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 00:01 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-21#1587625 << you gotta appreciate scrutiny is very inelastic. many people used their own implementations ; discussion of others' versions only meaningfully starts after some localized familiarity etc. in any case "being qualified to even use v" is an iffy thing - seeing how it's a novel design, and the novelty is fundamental and conceptual, nobody is technically qualified to use one. you wouldn
asciilifeform: ly Mail itself doing the censoring.' << this is not a necessary hypothesis, swedish mitm could easily smooth out the response times (by slowing, or, alternatively, caching, the victim site)
asciilifeform: 'If there's a middlebox in the Swedish ISP side (theory 1), we should see that HTTP 302 responses come back much faster than HTTP 200 responses, because a hypothetical middlebox will sit between the Swedes and upstream, and therefore may respond much faster than upstream. If there is no middlebox (theory 2) we'd see comparable response times for HTTP 200 and HTTP 302. Of course, no middlebox implies quite strongly that it's the Dai
mircea_popescu: mod6 in any case if you'd have never written the thing you'd have never found this thing. so you know, it's always worth losing fingers.
mod6: i need to dig into this a bit more, but the output flow is not necessarily the same order that the signature verification happens in.
mod6: and it's one of the first executing routines in my v.
mod6: err 'validate_seals'. that's the one.
mod6: Essentially, during the verify_signatures subroutine, if a vpatch is found to NOT have a corresponding signature, death().
a111: Logged on 2016-12-21 21:35 mod6: which basically means to me, either no one understands "vtronics" or no one who did ever audited the thing. and i'm clearly not qualified and shouldn't have written the fucking thing int he first place.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-21#1587625 << you gotta appreciate scrutiny is very inelastic. many people used their own implementations ; discussion of others' versions only meaningfully starts after some localized familiarity etc. in any case "being qualified to even use v" is an iffy thing - seeing how it's a novel design, and the novelty is fundamental and conceptual, nobody is technically qualified to use one. you wouldn
a111: Logged on 2016-12-21 21:30 mod6: I think alf should take his V much further, and mine can fall into dust bin.
mod6: but never the less.
mod6: iw asn't sure that the problems you're having are related to this
a111: Logged on 2016-12-21 20:44 mod6: <+asciilifeform> even the current thread in #mod6 , is possibly an example << asciilifeform found an oversight in my latest version of V. it doesn't have a flag allow or disallow the pressing of WILD vpatches.
ben_vulpes: software review takes *months* if not *years* around here. part and parcel of the deficit spending and how the humans choose to allocate their time.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-21 20:44 mod6: <+asciilifeform> even the current thread in #mod6 , is possibly an example << asciilifeform found an oversight in my latest version of V. it doesn't have a flag allow or disallow the pressing of WILD vpatches.
trinque: again the null set predicates thing causes huge commotion. I am honestly (and without veiled jabs) fascinated.
jurov: ah. and why the hard feelings wrt changing that case into error, too?
mod6: but if you hvae ~no~ seals, then you can press it sure. the 'flow' will represent these as WILD.
mod6: in either of those two cases, it pukes and stops.
mod6: or if I have bad signatures, then it'll complain as well.
mod6: if i have a bunch of seals in my .seals dir from a guy named 'alf' that isn't in my wot, then V will complain.
mod6: so... say that im the only guy in your wot.
phf: mod6: i think there's more infrastructure around V than there's V use, which leaves a lot of issues unexplored. for example there were mentions that V had a binary problem, but a serious discussion only happened recently, with no satisfactory solution. i think you were attempting to solve an important problem: how to let people outside of tmsr figure out build process without 6 months of log (seems like even more now), but i suspect
mod6: which basically means to me, either no one understands "vtronics" or no one who did ever audited the thing. and i'm clearly not qualified and shouldn't have written the fucking thing int he first place.
trinque: mod6: dun let vigorous discussion of the item dissuade you of working on it.
mod6: I think alf should take his V much further, and mine can fall into dust bin.
asciilifeform: they enabled 'shoot friend' mode (normally, 'friend or foe' beacon, would prevent.)
mircea_popescu: in all honestly if i were archeologist and discovering this i'd flip the bozo bit on this "tmsr" bs for this here reason.
mircea_popescu: other than "all" ?
trinque: how many encountered involve getting a thing to go down another branch
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this is not a pure win. for instance, some folx don't even ~keep~ a nonairgap signtron around. and now -- they would have to.
mircea_popescu: in the same way fuckjing an ugly broad is a use of your cock.
mircea_popescu: the nearly psychotic OUTRIGHT REFUSAL TO USE CRYPTOGRAPHY, in its universal insistence is starting to grate on my neverse.
phf: hmm, can make the process entirely painless with shitsign alias, that does --batch --quiet and uses a passwordless key
mircea_popescu: if you want to not be bothered with signing things - make a shit key and use that eg in an emacs module or as an output script or w/e
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform they aren't. the correct solution here is to have "automated low value signature process", NOT "to bypass signature checks".
trinque: I have no idea how we get from "gnu cat is shit because they added compromises throughout the thing's life" to "we will allow ourselves this same sin" because what, we're holier, can afford it ?
asciilifeform: (and yes, you can have 'test1', 'test2', ... while there is only one 'wild'. but who the hell uses 'wild' for anything other than one-at-a-time test, of own code?!)
trinque: they're not; one doesn't introduce a branch
asciilifeform: anyway, the behaviour of having 'wild' button with red flip cover , that permits (and at all times, clearly marks, 'WILD') unsigned patches, or mircea_popescu's variant, where you gotta have 'test key' in .wot, are equivalent afaik
trinque: which alright already regarding null sets, but look how it maims the operator.
mod6: it doesn't care at signature time if one is WILD or not, only if the vpatch does not ~verify~ and there is a corresponding seal.
mod6: mine ~does~ the check.
asciilifeform: mod6: didn't you just recently discover that yours didn't even do the check?
mod6: you can't turn off the sig check, at least in mine.
asciilifeform: mod6: as i understand, trinque and mircea_popescu were taking the position that 'it is dangerous and useless to have an off switch for signature check'
mod6: my v checks the hashes for files pressed, and pukes if not a match from the hashes in the processed vpatch.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and when i provide you with a toilet, you'll stop pissing in the bath tub ?
a111: Logged on 2016-12-21 20:50 trinque: the reason you do not use patch by hand is that it does not respect the hash
trinque: you are expanding the definition of "v" the word to accomodate deficiencies in the definition of another word, patch
trinque: note that it does do a sort of squashy "this is what was around the spliced matter" which is a shitty hash
trinque humbly suggests considering the combination of orthogonal, simple tools
mircea_popescu: with the test key ? why not ? fucks with your workflow ?
mircea_popescu: there shouldn't be any flag - nor should it press unsigned things.
mod6: But it never occured to me that the average guy might just drop on of these into patches and never consider what he is doing.
mod6: I press them very often, infact.
mircea_popescu: those shouldn't press at all should they ?
mod6: Currently, if a WILD vpatch is in the flow, it will just press it as long as it is based correctly.
mod6: <+asciilifeform> even the current thread in #mod6 , is possibly an example << asciilifeform found an oversight in my latest version of V. it doesn't have a flag allow or disallow the pressing of WILD vpatches.
mircea_popescu: altogether not a bad summary of "eastern mysticism"
a111: Logged on 2016-12-16 18:21 mircea_popescu: in any case - mental models of logic, as with mental models of anything found in nature -, are approximations. the same mechanism that allows a guy to isolate 0* from null.predicate allows one all sorts of psycho-imunological responses that are rather requisite to maintain the subjective notion of the self ~in a format comprehensible to itself~!
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-16#1584339 << now this and the notion of contorting onself to think come into greater focus. thinking ~til the answer~ without knowledge of the possiblity of an answer opens up a wide space for biological suicide.
trinque: think if you dwelt forever on the fact that by extension, godhood itself is all around you, but you've not the ability to understand it.
trinque: the christians hacked a primordial fear here. salvation is but a word, AND YOU'RE GOING TO MISS IT.
mircea_popescu: i dunno where this truism that "people like people" comes from, but it is spectacularily resilient in the face of unequivocal quashing irl. NOBODY, past the age of about 5 or so, likes almost anybody else to even the degree of toleration, let alone actually seeking them out. not even fucking women, hence the prostitute's job (not to fuck - but to leave after!)
BingoBoingo: <trinque> "not me but christ through me" even worse, I'd think, with apologies to danielpbarron. "I submit myself fully to the god of purpose." << Step 3!
a111: Logged on 2016-12-21 20:10 trinque: but it points directly to the lack of a transition path for discussed greeks aside "encounter the thing, such that pavlovian conditioning can build useful associations"
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-21#1587492 << this neatly dovetails into "brain is not a thinking machine". "if you exist in the space long enough, eventually brain will work to think about the space - but if you do not, sorry buster, "probability can not be larger than 3 because 3 is the largest it could be".
BingoBoingo: <trinque> pete_dushenski: tundras are motherfuckers; they're in the running. << Recently Honda Civic SUV edition "CRV" fell onto my rolling candidates list. Slotted just below rust-free 1986 S10
asciilifeform: trinque: dutch had imho a correct observation, the greeks had no particular desire to be us, and would barf in about three seconds if they could meet modern folx
mircea_popescu: certainly the attempt worked wonders for pete_dushenski writing readable articles. what exactly made his previous work less good than his current work ?
trinque: but it points directly to the lack of a transition path for discussed greeks aside "encounter the thing, such that pavlovian conditioning can build useful associations"
mircea_popescu: the above problem not having a known solution, even if heuristic in nature, being a large part of why.
asciilifeform: afaik there is no ready pill against this . folks won't climb ladders unless prodded, and you cannot predicate the prodding on whether they seem to see the ladders or not.
mircea_popescu: so far i'm opting out of the entire "systematic slavery" thing ; it is a private not public matter entirely opaque to they-who-aren-t-me, which makes me-as-slaveholder rather divine in nature.
trinque: mircea_popescu: and wouldn't misapplication of this only further miswire her, and produce worse results ?
asciilifeform: even the current thread in #mod6 , is possibly an example
mircea_popescu: (yes, /me does this routinely, and the complaint routinely is presented that the severity is arbitrary etc.)
mircea_popescu: and this is a problem of much more practical import than commonly realised. if slave is punished for things she "should have figured", how to you connect the lash count / severity of the punishment to the offense ?
asciilifeform: which is to say -- purely theoretically, in much the same way that my arse has a nonzero chance of falling through the chair, through the floor, and down into china
asciilifeform: and yes, 'greeks could have made tesla coil.' the same way that gavin can guess the bits in mircea_popescu's privkey
asciilifeform: re: volcano: recall the oklo 'reactor' ?
mircea_popescu: it'd better be something that compares favourably with aristotle's dimensional calculations, too! because you're so much more advanced than the zulureeks!
mircea_popescu: "they didn't know lightning is available in store - thought zeus only item. so they didn't make tesla coil. problem ?"
asciilifeform: (and more recent, quite possibly mats et al could read and say what the relevant folks thought of subj)
asciilifeform: they used to be usg-only
mircea_popescu: (srsly, i sat there and went holy shit this is so obvious wtf is wrong with us.)
mircea_popescu: THEY WERE EVIDENT OMFG
asciilifeform: answer is that the brute force searchers got to it on day x and not x-1, x-2.
mircea_popescu: you can make it in an hour! what were all these people thinking! clearly all languages but objective-c were wrong! false gods of a false reason!
mircea_popescu: but forget glass. ~everyone had potatoes even if they didn't have lemons, and tin and copper. who made galvanic gold plating process ?
mircea_popescu: but the general point here was that undevelopment or underdevelopment is not much argument.
asciilifeform: gotta discover the blown forge
mircea_popescu: i dunno alfie. lava - hot. behind it - glass. doesn't seem more of a leap than what is proposed for the original "cooking meat" discovery, which supposedly is why we're even here.
trinque: otherwise from where will it come?
trinque: I will not stumble drunkenly into it, but it'd seem one would at least require input that can be contorted into the item.
asciilifeform: these folx -- did not know how to cut.
asciilifeform: recall the thread re 'engineer -- cuts!'
mircea_popescu: you'd think "it;s on your fucking body - right there! and it works!" would be sufficient basis. turns out not. volcanoes produce obsidian but do not appreciably help the locals make glass.
mircea_popescu: so she'll still frottage the shit out of teddybears as a 19yo because hey.
trinque: "what makes woman orgasm" is culture bound. gotta be able to reprogram it when they end up in another context.
mircea_popescu: and to add amusement to this : of those who do discover it naturally, only a fraction figure out THE PROCESS. most arestuck repeating the exact procedure that they originally discovered.
mircea_popescu: not particularly true either.
mircea_popescu: and i wouldn't even think it fair to say that the other two thirds are dumber or something.
mircea_popescu has personally taught a bunch of young women. about say one third discover it naturally ; but the rest do not.
trinque: how could you say something out there
mircea_popescu: (and before you ask - yes, cyclotron CAN be built with materials found in classical athens, why not.)
mircea_popescu: or the famous "x should be enough for everyone", be it bytes, cray computers, what have you.
mircea_popescu: or the japanese program.
mircea_popescu: you know, just like the german uranium.