a111: Logged on 2016-12-23 12:24 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform let's take the simplest cycle : a->b and b->a ; to do this, a must contain the hash of b ; and b must contain the hash of a. how do you propose to accomplish this ?
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-23#1589083 << the shortest cycle possible in v (assuming that all of the patches are valid, that is, actually produce the hashes they indicate as descendants, as outputted by gnudiff, as opposed to a hand-sewn crapolade which does not) is a->b->a. this happens if you have a patch 'c' that has 'b' as antecedent but 'a' as descendant.
mircea_popescu: davout this goes eerily with a http://trilema.com/2016/how-the-other-half-lives-a-very-seriously-funny-article/#selection-1023.253-1023.409 style of programming
davout: because APIs *have* to be clever, because these people are too good for documentation
mircea_popescu: the what now ?
davout: god, whoever came up with HATEOAS deserves a bullet in the head
mircea_popescu: "oh light of the heavens, divine dove, bring me a glass of water" "honey, i lost you at dove. you want an omlet ?"
mircea_popescu: My heart! The light of my eyes! You are the heroes of Iraq, may God protect you. My soul, my heroes! But for Gods sake get out of the street and take cover from that sniper! << bwhahaha this is just how arabic goes, too.
mircea_popescu: from context looks like it's prolly worth ~sergeant in iraq. which is not altogether a bad estimation of respective valor.
mircea_popescu: like how much money is paid to various military positions in the us.
mircea_popescu: reviewing the travail d'americain the sysadmin puts in, it should come at no surprise that the us last won a war when the europeans ran the effort for them,\
mircea_popescu: (and check out the uniforms, everyone in iraq is O-9 ?!)
mircea_popescu: http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/002.jpg << the pet rocks are also pretty cool.
mircea_popescu: (i suppose also lulzy, that the front wheel cover has hinges, whereas the back one is screw-mounted. why not the other way around ?)
mircea_popescu: (of all the weird therein included, it's of particular amusement to me that they do have the slant, but that they evidently introduced it graphically rather than numerically. nobody did the math required to see how that front apex should go ; it's just there because "that's how tanks look", forget blast flow simulations etc.)
mircea_popescu: i wonder if there's going to also be a 4th.
mircea_popescu: so far there's "fake news" channels ; "terrorist" channels ; and of course "the media" aka http://trilema.com/2016/the-war-with-the-press/
mircea_popescu: "In a new photo report purportedly released by the Islamic State, an ISIS suicide car bomber attacks Iraqi forces in the Intisar neighborhood of east Mosul, Iraq. The photo report was released on ISIS terrorist channels on December 22."
mircea_popescu: of the printed mail-order-catalogue sort, because apparently nobody cares about twitter and myspace over there natch.
mircea_popescu: in further news nobody cares about, "4 million letters of 'empathy, support' dropped on Mosul". this thing, which was a) going to be a war that b) was going to take two weeks twelve weeks ago (and then a month, and then two, and here we are) has now degenerated in a fucking spam offensive.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger well, maybe that'll make someone somewhere believe these matter! usg doing its best to support teh economy.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform let's take the simplest cycle : a->b and b->a ; to do this, a must contain the hash of b ; and b must contain the hash of a. how do you propose to accomplish this ?
Framedragger: << "The U.S. government quietly began requesting that select foreign visitors provide their Facebook, Twitter and other social media accounts upon arriving in the country"
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 16:36 thestringpuller: asciilifeform: Emin is pushing SGX like solutions. Seems everyone is infected with security theatre these days.
davout: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1588327 <<< guy finds a PKI on the floor, runs to show it to all the other retards...
asciilifeform: think simply of the chess rule, that any player whk recreates a board position that existed at ANY previous point in the game -- forfeits.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-23 05:33 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-23#1589025 << it's not even clear to me this is actually possible to do. the closing element has to actually break a hash.
mod6: then once we agree that mine does what is deemed 'correct' others can use the tests to prove their own out.
mod6: this next round of refactoring for this might be some work, but in the end, i aught to write a bunch of these tests into automated ones.
mod6: agreed. we're getting there one bit at a time.
mircea_popescu: anyway, it may feel a bit tedious/stupid/etc to keep workign these basics, but it'll pay off in time
mircea_popescu: but the idea was, put just alf in wot, cut a seal midway, see what happens.
mircea_popescu: mod6 yeah, if it's a (2 sigs) -> b(2 sigs) -> c(1 sig) -> d(2 sigs again) then it's a valid press.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-23 05:04 asciilifeform: if you ever see one, you gotta find and negrate the joker who closed the cycle.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-23#1589025 << it's not even clear to me this is actually possible to do. the closing element has to actually break a hash.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-23 04:52 mod6: because there are other routes everywhere else that can follow.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-23#1588990 << ah, but the idea was with single guy in wot.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-23 02:19 mircea_popescu: mod6 i read through http://www.mod6.net/v-99994-trace.txt and indeed it seems right and proper vtronics. one q though : was there any patch not signed by asciilifeform interspersed in the flow ? because that's the only not tested case i think, if you have say a->b->c->d where a, c and d are signed by x. does it stop at a ?
a111: Logged on 2016-12-23 04:49 mod6: are you saying, in my flow, in these traces, when i remove a middle vpatch or sig, that it shouldn't show anything in the flow after the breakage even if there are vpatches with valid sigs that correspond to wot entities present?
a111: Logged on 2016-12-23 04:41 phf: there's no "correct" with v graphs, and every two months or so i spent some time meditating on what a v graph even is
asciilifeform: if they are ~all~ lolcats, you simply have a null flow.
asciilifeform: i will rephrase again for clarity: for so long as you have 1 pubkey, which was used to make 1 seal, and that seal is for one, single patch, your only one, a genesis, you can display a flow. and literally every other file in .seals, .wot, .patches can be a lolcat.
mod6: also, as a note, i'll leave the anti-fuzz change in this new version -- it seems ~more~ correct than previous impl.
asciilifeform: (no patches, no sigs, and no wot, or simply 1 or 2 of these)
asciilifeform: literally every other condition is recoverable.
asciilifeform: it is the ~only~ must-die condition for a vtron.
mod6: fwiw, i believe i've even tested this once by creating a special patch that pointed to an earlier patch in the flow.
asciilifeform: there is only 1 case where a vtron ~must~ barf
mod6: so back to the model: a->b->c->d if I remove 'c', all that should show up in the flow is 'a->b' and all that is pressable is 'a->b', should never attempt to even press 'a->b->d'
asciilifeform: when you ask a vtron to press, it has to be for something that is in the flow
mod6: the same flow computation happens in both places.
mod6: my v seems to do the correct thing by dying, but maybe showing the entire flow post breakage might be incorrect as well.
mod6: and furthermore, i guess it doesn't make any sense to continue on at all if something is missing in the flow, because even if you could side-step where the breakage is, the vpatch down stream would actually fail to press anyway because its input hash wouldn't match the expected.
phf: asciilifeform: mine removes some of the links where dependency is already demonstrated by other means. if you have a->b->c and a->c you can't press c without pressing b also
mod6: but those would be the only two that should drop.
mod6: if it were correct, in my mind, i suppose, the flow would be dropping zap_hardcoded_seeds and zap_showmyip_crud.
asciilifeform: it is less hairy if you use my algo, where every single patch, when deciding if it gets into the flow, has to trace descent to a genesis, unbrokenly
asciilifeform: mod6: if flow breaks, everything that hung below the breaking point, falls down
mod6: or to go back to mr. p.'s example: a->b->c->d all signed by x, if i remove 'c', then the flow should read: a->b
phf: asciilifeform: i don't really have mental capacity for this conversation right now, but mod6's graph is most likely correct, because all it does is links vpatches to vpatches by their shared hashes
mod6: are you saying, in my flow, in these traces, when i remove a middle vpatch or sig, that it shouldn't show anything in the flow after the breakage even if there are vpatches with valid sigs that correspond to wot entities present?
asciilifeform: this is not possible by definition, either it displays that exist, all of them, and is correct, or not all, then not.
mod6: phf's might correct, but his doesn't show all of the edges that mine does.
asciilifeform: a vtron that displays descendants for a patch that has an antecedent hash that corresponds to no patch, or does the same for any of its apparent children, is incorrect
mod6: that's the same as saying : mod6@gentoo ~/sandbox-v $ ./v.pl a asciilifeform_zap_hardcoded_seeds.vpatch
mod6: <+asciilifeform> mod6: look here: asciilifeform_zap_hardcoded_seeds.vpatch should have been orphaned in your flow << i think it actually is, quite: when I have the sig for dnsseed moved to duck-fuck-soup, and i check the ante and desc for zap_hardcoded:http://dpaste.com/2QCN3Y4.txt
asciilifeform: of course there is
phf: there's no "correct" with v graphs, and every two months or so i spent some time meditating on what a v graph even is
asciilifeform: the flow is wrong
asciilifeform: when you zapped the sig for asciilifeform_dnsseed_snipsnip.vpatch
mod6: i dunno, lemme try putting in the anti-fuzz thing
mod6: because, mind you, it is ~still~ trying to press asciilifeform_zap_hardcoded_seeds.vpatch, and whatever it shits out from this, if it does not match the expected output hash, will then die yes.
mod6: no worries, fixing this requires some other changes. will go back to drawing board.
asciilifeform: (presumably you omitted disabling fuzz because you had, in theory, the hash antecedent check. but why not 'belt and suspenders')
asciilifeform: mod6: and yes, your hash checker apparently broke, if the fuzz thing was able to come into play
mod6: and yours doesn't check the output hash.
asciilifeform: that should NOT be there
mircea_popescu: you have this much sticky and have to pick who "other people" to stick.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: priests can stay fat for so long as there is fat to harvest. for so long as ~other~ people economize.
asciilifeform: google et al are not commercial orgs in the usual sense, and haven't been for years, they are religious institutions
mircea_popescu: anyway, idlewords guy is pretty much spot on as to how exactly silicon valley / "vc" etc world goes away. "Ray Kurzweil, who believes he will never die, has been a Google employee for several years now and is presumably working on that problem. There are a lot of people in Silicon Valley working on truly crazy projects under the cover of money." this is pretty much it, the byzantines found their way towards byzantinism, will
mircea_popescu: then that'd be it.
mod6: aha, ok. will do. if i'd venture a guess, we'll see the exact same result.
mod6: yah, so, in this: a->b->c->d ; I basically just got rid of 'c', and then tried to press a->b->d (all signed by x) and it does fail. was this what we were trying to achieve? If not, i'll do another test np.
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> mod6 why's the hash mismatching ? << upon checking the output hash from the pressing of asciilifeform_zap_hardcoded_seeds.vpatch, it failed. because this patch depends on asciilifeform_dnsseed_snipsnip.vpatch which was not in the flow, because it was renamed 'duck-fuck-soup.vpatch'.
mircea_popescu: now then, leaving aside the offensive inferiority complex women/nonwhites have towards white males : the guy has a point (mit media lab, which apparently got new leadership, a little smarter - and a little less female - being where ethereum retardation is hatched). the jwz is by now radioactive, a bunch of kids who can't subdue a girl their age, let alone a herd of adult women, want things to be about how it's ok to go around
mircea_popescu: iction, generalized AI, we wouldn't have to worry about all the messy stuff like politics and society. They think machines will just figure it all out for us."
mircea_popescu: Joi Ito, who runs the MIT Media Lab, said a wonderful thing in a recent conversation with President Obama: "This may upset some of my students at MIT, but one of my concerns is that it's been a predominantly male gang of kids, mostly white, who are building the core computer science around AI, and they're more comfortable talking to computers than to human beings. A lot of them feel that if they could just make that science-f
mircea_popescu: mod6 why's the hash mismatching ?
a111: Logged on 2016-12-23 03:01 mod6: ok, so some results to the above: http://www.mod6.net/v-99994-trace2.txt
mircea_popescu: ahahaha ok this is great. "since hyperintelligence is a real threat any entity which develops hyperintelligence would be so taken with this threat that it would be forced to spend all its time filling obscure wikis with bad fanfic to prepare the other intelligences to deal with the singularity. you know, much like that bizarre faggot."
asciilifeform: ftr i found bitcoin to be a very interesting thing (after, like many other people, very narrowly failing to come up with it) but couldn't stand ~bitcoin enthusiasts~ at all, barfed immediately when saw tardstalk, and #bitcoin, and will also admit, early #b-a
phf: our logs must go all the way back to Aristotle
mircea_popescu: anyway ; i dunno that it makes any sense to push this further ; otc logs, what else, we're going to do cypherpunk bbses too ?
mircea_popescu: so it's entirely possible you were curious about bitcoin, wandered in some chan or another, never thought more of it.
mircea_popescu: there's an easy mistake to make here where we look at the past and presume it's the present. gotta recall at the time most people (myself included) did not even regard the matter as serious enough to warrant permalogging.
mod6: yeah, i feel like you came in, talked for a few weeks, checked it out... then vanished again for a while. then you were here.
asciilifeform: at the time i was doing a great deal of passive lurking, trying to draw a picture that might lead to the shangri-la where the smart folx live
asciilifeform: fwiw i definitely wasn't fully 'tuned in' until after the mpex review thing
mod6: <+asciilifeform> but how the hell did i wander into #b-a, i still cannot remember. << you were invited to checkout MPEx right?
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> mod6 remember that time someone put a mega sdice order in and flooded the book ? << Oh yeah, Sir. I'm still doing a O_O from that.
mircea_popescu: confirmed, there's a hole in my log for the 12th. asciilifeform apparently you didn't merely meander in, but managed to do it when i was off.
mircea_popescu: mod6 remember that time someone put a mega sdice order in and flooded the book ?
asciilifeform: but how the hell did i wander into #b-a, i still cannot remember.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i wrote the article on oct 11 2012. so this makes sense
phf: ah so there's a break on oct 12 from 04:56 to 15:08 which falls under
asciilifeform: so apparently there i was
asciilifeform: Oct 11 15:48:50 <mircea_popescu> There's no drama like Bitcoin drama. The "will pirate make contact" storyline returns tomorrow and the new season of "will BFL deliver" starts in a couple of weeks. It's like reality TV without the ads. Which well-known Bitcoin business will suddenly fail next? Who should be voted off the libertarian island?
phf: asciilifeform: what's your timestamp for "There's no drama like Bitcoin drama." ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in what year was 'Oct 06 11:33:00 <PeterLambert> I guess there is no need for glbse trading funds without a glbse' on your machine ?
phf: asciilifeform: were you on bouncer from the beginning?
mod6: wow, the fortunes won, and lost (looking at this old stuff...)
phf: asciilifeform: oddly enough that's not in the log. perhaps if you upload your logs i can slice them in..
a111: Logged on 2016-04-02 19:14 mircea_popescu: in other news, http://trilema.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/tmsr-logs-apr2012-oct2013.txt.tar.gz
mircea_popescu: then no, cuz you see, parts/joins are recorded.
asciilifeform: possibly tuned in and then immediately out.
asciilifeform: this pile consists only of what came out of the hose.
mircea_popescu: what did you mean, "were there" ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: feb.2 of 2013 was when asciilifeform first ~spoke~ there
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the dates seem off or something's amiss. i see you feb 3rd 2013
asciilifeform: which is itching in my head, because i have nfi how i could have ~found~ it prior to the letter from hanbot
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> i have jun 2011 - apr 2012 otc logs also, but by now really scraping the bottom. << these would be cool tho
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2013-02-02#-142550 , http://btcbase.org/log/2013-02-02#-142536 << lel, there must be a missing piece, did i really appear in the log before saying anything
asciilifeform: phf: is there an automagical way to query when $nick first appeared ?
mircea_popescu: phf but why the gap ?
phf: asciilifeform: i'm not sure, but the ancient log connects cleanly into where kako starts
mircea_popescu: i have jun 2011 - apr 2012 otc logs also, but by now really scraping the bottom.
mircea_popescu: what was the stats link ?
mircea_popescu: but the machine has no mother to shit on it ; AND NO GOOD INSTINCTS. or any instincts at all.
mircea_popescu: yes, when i teach a 15 yo to fuck, she ~has good instincts~ about what's slutty and what's not ; and works to clear the shit her mother shat on her so the slut within can shine
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the thing is a flame, and it was not obvious to me either on 1st pass.
mircea_popescu: see, the man looked in the jaguar's eyes, and SAW a soul there. little bit of circularity.
mircea_popescu: ah. ok. anyway, it's funny, because compare this part : http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1588385 meets this part : "At this point, the robot is getting smarter as well, and participates in its own redesign."
asciilifeform: it's the pl d00d, with the pirate tv station in the solidarity years, the antarctic expedition, etc
mircea_popescu subscribes to the harem- usage explained in ch.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes do you mean you iterate through all the seals ? :D
phf: i'm about to upgrade btcbase, which in this case is an invasive procedure so bot's going to be down for a bit (15 minutes or so if everything goes well), after that there might be some bugs so feel free to yell at me
mircea_popescu: well, rename the file lol
mircea_popescu: s V implementation, it is in no way obvious that the time cost of his learning the language combined with the risk that he misses details in the audit is a better resource expenditure than simply implementing the tool again in his language of choice."
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes this incidentally is a very cogent point you bring, "Multiple implementations of an ambiguous specification provide far more value than the "many eyes" mantra of open source advocates. An implementation in Python might burn the eyes of a Perl hacker, and the Perl be entirely inscrutable to a man who's never touched it before, and even were such a man to sit down and learn Python for the purpose of auditing another'
mircea_popescu: mod6 i read through http://www.mod6.net/v-99994-trace.txt and indeed it seems right and proper vtronics. one q though : was there any patch not signed by asciilifeform interspersed in the flow ? because that's the only not tested case i think, if you have say a->b->c->d where a, c and d are signed by x. does it stop at a ?
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 19:01 phf: asciilifeform: these are basically three different solutions to the same problem of "how to allow more than one kind of vpatch". yours is mechanical, mine is an attempt to expand the mythos and mp's is cutting the gordian knot
asciilifeform: in other non-news, https://mjos.fi << possibly interesting d00d of the dan bernstein type
ben_vulpes: aok, so 1 then?
phf: well, it probably keeps a state somewhere, but i mean since it got deployed, which was probably around the ba->tmsr
asciilifeform: and will reboot again in another 5.
asciilifeform: who the hell knows when it started running.
phf: other bot only recalls anyone it saw since it started running, where's a111 is looking at logs
a111: 2016-06-12 <vc> Framedragger: I'm cool with port scans, neither me nor my parent host cares
ben_vulpes: what'd the repulic accrete this year, 2 new faces?
asciilifeform: aha it's the ceglowksi d00d!
asciilifeform: 'AI risk is string theory for computer programmers. It's fun to think about, interesting, and completely inaccessible to experiment given our current technology. You can build crystal palaces of thought, working from first principles, then climb up inside them and pull the ladder up behind you.'
Framedragger thanks ben_vulpes for the CL implementation
asciilifeform: on the other hand, if asciilifeform were to decide to speak ebcdic one day, we would have a problem talking.
asciilifeform: (the seals and keys also must be public, naturally, but i am referring to the collective 'set' here)
ben_vulpes: i did mistake that to mean "vs the public is pointed to as example vs. vs whose operations are private to the owner"
asciilifeform: a hypothetical vtron with a correct forum-end and a disastrously broken harem-end can only hose ~the owner~
asciilifeform: the harem end -- presses, and does miscellaneous housekeeping ops (e.g., 'origin')
asciilifeform: the forum end eats, shits vpatches
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: that genesis is mildly diddled from the earlier paste
pete_dushenski: i've heard of burning trees and i've heard of burning litres... but putting them together results in little more than a vw hippie wagon in my head.
mircea_popescu: cunt is the one thing that's not running out.
phf: pitty we didn't have it from the beginning. all those beautiful tumblr pictures lost forever
mircea_popescu: pity we didn't have the bot archival thing earlier huh.
mircea_popescu: in other lulz : if you google bitcoin authors you get : Andreas Antonopoulos, Gavin Andresen, Adam Back, Brian Behlendorf, Wences Casares, Hal Finney, Satoshi Nakamoto, Charlie Shrem.
phf: ah, right that's the guy
phf: it sort traced western history from the perspective of time measurement. "and then they had a city clock to synchronize everyone"
mircea_popescu reads recipes for coffee liqueur on web. INSTANT COFFEE! they... USE WATER! holy shit...
phf: i think it might've been by the same guy who did "history of timekeeping" or somesuch that was briefly trashed hmm
phf: i feel like there was a neat article about the history of seals somewhere inthe logs, but i can't find it
mircea_popescu: so then rebase / seal.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes which of the trb genesis seals are seal and which reseal ?
ben_vulpes: whence 're', though. that other key was 'derpderp ben_vulpes', not 'foundation chair ben_vulpes'
mircea_popescu: sign = the act of signing anything.
mircea_popescu: reseal = the act of signing a patch with your own key.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 18:49 mircea_popescu: you ~can~ after all rebase a patch ; not just because of the patch, but also because of the sig.
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1588519 << 'rebase' in my mind entails changing vpatch to have new hashes, or some other mutation. just transmitting a new sig does not change where a patch might lie in the tree.
mircea_popescu: (which is what all ~ALL~ standardization EVER does - makes it so you're really careful not to typo. it can't resolve problems of the other nature, just this.)
mircea_popescu: if you have a collection of keys you're - for whatever reason, maybe they're all me, maybe they're my harem, maybe they're all the people from russia, whatever - interested in, yes you can build the set of all pathes they signed.
mircea_popescu: no i mean while you're not there.
mod6: So I have made a couple small changes to my V99995, and have put together an output trace of what we were seeing with V99995 and what we now see with the changes made in a possible V99994 version. Review of this would be nice to validate that the behavior is correct: http://www.mod6.net/v-99994-trace.txt
asciilifeform: still 'counts' for the purpose of automated wotronics ?
asciilifeform: yes but let's suppose that mircea_popescu mistyped, deliberately or otherwise, a character(s) in the string, and wrote 'kye x is ym key'
mircea_popescu: and there's no "up to good" or "no good" directionality of intent involved here. he is up to nonsense, because meaning and universality are mutually exclusive.
mircea_popescu: yes, once you populate a db with the keyids of "known mp's subservient keys" you can
asciilifeform: because if so, making the declarations 'human text' is hardly an effective barrier
asciilifeform: gedankenexperiment. say i have a billion signed texts, from all over the galaxy, and also a number of keys, can i mechanically query 'documents signed by all of mircea_popescu's known subserviant keys' ? is the notion that anyone trying to do this is by definition up to no good ?
mircea_popescu: universality and hardness are orthogonal, how hard a diamond is as a standard of realistic hardness has entirely nothing to do with how many cunts wear one around their whatever appendage.
asciilifeform: comp could do their work.
asciilifeform: if it were not weaker, there would be no work for jurists, neh ?
asciilifeform: 'harden' means hardness on the level of rsa signature itself.
asciilifeform: deedbot-of-humanreadable is not 'harden', it does not utterly thermonuke the possibility of ambiguity.
asciilifeform: what'd it be, hypothetically ?
mircea_popescu: anyway. i have a perfectly serviceable way to harden keys for the record. it's just not ~standardized~, and it's unclear it should be.
asciilifeform: we are far from the autarkik vplanet.
asciilifeform: all of the extant vtrons, i will point out, run on linux, which is a monstrous horror of the deep that no one in my wot has signed, ditto python, perl, etc.
asciilifeform: or to drink salt water in the lifeboat.
asciilifeform: nobody forces you to use comp either
asciilifeform: if you have 'soft' linkages between subservient keys, and no way to 'harden' them for the record, a slick operator could simply shed subpersonalities like snake skins, and there will be doubt in re the contiguity of identity, where there ought be no possibility of doubt.
asciilifeform: actually the relevant mircea_popescu article was another, where he had example of a man who is about to be hanged, but argues that the man who did the crime, is not the one who is bound and led to the gallows
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu has a pretty good exposition of this, not long ago, in the 'opposed' thread
asciilifeform: there is intent.
mircea_popescu: there;s no intention involved in or supported by vtronics
mircea_popescu: if patches are signed by dead people only, they don't belong in presses
asciilifeform: and it is doomed to look quite different, with passage of time, than the maker intends.
asciilifeform: so we have here a suit of armour where the leather straps rot, but the iron -- does not.
asciilifeform: well iirc in mircea_popescu's original sketch, the sole linkage between mircea_popescu-royalkey and mircea_popescu-apocryphakey is a wot rating. and wot as we have it is an ephemeral thing, which relies on ability to interrogate living people, and not only living but near to the interlocutor in wot.
asciilifeform: but what is the best way to make permanent record that ' mircea_popescu's i-found-this-in-back-of-desk-drawer ' key is subservient strictly to ' mircea_popescu royal key ' ?
asciilifeform: phf: mircea_popescu's method , to be used in the battlefield, still needs some means of tying the keys together formally -- and something that doesn't reduce to the horror of gpg's 'subkeys'
asciilifeform: and there are bound to be mistakes, ranging from the harmless lul to the utter calamity, 'oops i used my 'royal alchemist' stamp instead of 'dildolathe operator by appointment to Her Majesty' stamp'
phf: asciilifeform: these are basically three different solutions to the same problem of "how to allow more than one kind of vpatch". yours is mechanical, mine is an attempt to expand the mythos and mp's is cutting the gordian knot
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's grandfather had a gigantic tray of rubber stamps, of what must have been a dozen different shapes, and when signing a document would first stamp it with the rubber that corresponded to the imperial role in which the signing was to take place. this was orc sop. and i suppose the concept is doomed to stick around.
a111: Logged on 2015-08-28 03:13 asciilifeform: thing does exactly three basic kinds of thing - verifies sigs; determines what subcoagulations of spittle in the spittoon are in fact in single strands; and permits operator to select individual strands, and cut'em (by whatever criteria, including signatories or combinations thereof)
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2015-08-28#1254193 << moar detail from 'history of v', for the record.
phf: i guess the multiple keys idea was already introduced in gossipd (in the original spec i suspect it was a solution to "no automatic RSA-ing" problem)
asciilifeform: quite the same
asciilifeform: there's no 'fixed form' from a key made on public comp tho