asciilifeform: i can think of a few palliative pills for it, in particular to structure the deletions and insertions in separate vpatches
asciilifeform: (gigantic deletes and inserts, rather than the actual 'we moved such-and-such lines to this-here place...')
a111: Logged on 2017-01-03 15:15 mircea_popescu: anyway, http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2011/08/grade_inflation.html ; total must-read.
lobbes: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-03#1595456 << "First, and obviously, since the majority of the students are going to get an A, he just has to do just as well/horrifically as the average student, and if they're all writing about slavery with the enthusiasm of a photocopier then if he wants an A he better buckle down and learn the truly useful skill of masking the words of a Wikipedia page. "
asciilifeform: to rephrase: the resulting vdiff would be quite far from minimal
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i can think of one (nonfatal, but quite unpleasant) headache: without a less-idiotic replacement for gnudiff, the resulting cut-trb becomes very difficult to pedigree to trad-trb . sorta like the problem with the tabs/spaces cleanup proposed by mircea_popescu last year
mircea_popescu: anyway, the great gain is that no two elements need/have write access to the same thing by this scheme. in point of fact one way to look at current trb/prb is to say that they have "write locks" on all the fucking time and deadlock.
davout is getting lost in the variable names
mircea_popescu: (this knob is then in practice equivalent to the "checkpoints" discussed previously)
mircea_popescu: in particular N.B should be "older overwrites newer" style ring buffer. of particular concern are situations where the buffer is set shorter than the longest reorg, in which case the node will wedge. TRB.N not accepting blocks with index lower than highest of B.B is for sure not feasible. "how many behind" should be an operator knob.
mircea_popescu: "this is my B.T1 of all txn with no fee, this is my B.T2 of all the payments to my X, this is my B.T3 of all txn over 5kb relayed by ip X"etc.
mircea_popescu: but it is not required for B.T to be used only in this way or for this purpose. in principle there could be a whole pile of these, readily extended into whatever operator wants to do.
mircea_popescu: this scheme among other things cheaply allows the "add arbitrary new address to wallet", just have utility that (separately) processes B.B and produces new set of B.T.
mircea_popescu: "blocks that have been recevied via the network"
mircea_popescu: that's ~the wallet.
mircea_popescu: M.T deliberately left unspecified, it is the equivalent of today's "mempool". perhaps should also be a ring buffer like the other 3.
mircea_popescu: otherwise it is discarded. B.T may be pruned (according to arbitrary address list, for instance). Rate limiting in TRB.N may be constructed to observe N.B items that fail to propagate to B.B and ban the originating peers.
mircea_popescu: TRB to be split into two parts : TRB.B and TRB.N. Queues B.B B.T N.B to be created. TRB.N inherits the code to connect to peers. TRB.N reads blocks from peers, and puts them in N.B. TRB.N reads txn from peers and puts them in M.T. TRB.N does nothing else (with the possible exception of rate limiting for peers). TRB.B reads N.B and verifies the blocks. if the block is verified it is added to B.B and its component txn to B.T ;
asciilifeform: (the 'sanity proxy', if you will, for trb)
mircea_popescu: yes, they're both "transactions" in the terms of the eventual datastruct they'll occupy. they aren't for that reason the same thing.
asciilifeform: aite, this is the interpose thing
a111: Logged on 2016-12-20 19:42 mircea_popescu: nope. blockchain part will get to it when it gets to it, and tell you. until then, peer part builds queues.
asciilifeform: explicitly, where do you propose the cut
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: draw the cut plox
mircea_popescu: no such third was contemplated ; when discussing a proposal you are stuck, willy nilly, first understanding it and then referring it
asciilifeform: because if not, then naturally -- not.
asciilifeform: so you end up needing a third. (supposing that you are trying to speak the old protocol, with heathens!)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the tcp stack per se does not offer any means whereby two proggies speak simultaneously through 1 socket
mircea_popescu: it ~may~ be the case that some arbitrary level of cleanliness requires an entirely new universe. this, however, can never inhibit the brushing of toilets.
a111: Logged on 2017-01-03 19:59 asciilifeform: trinque: it isn't , currently, clear to me that you can make this cut cleanly without hard-breaking with the traditional protocol.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-03#1595712 << you've never defined the level of "cleanly" contemplated here ; and for all practical purposes it's not relevant (ie, any uncleanliness in the result is already present in the current soup anyway)
a111: Logged on 2017-01-03 19:56 ben_vulpes: because "map-reduce" does not reduce to "here's how i'm going to solve specifically the case where thread n finds an unspent out and thread n+1 finds its spent and in the reducing phase i collate everything proper-like"
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-03#1595700 << this has the cheap solution of "spent prevails" on the theory that it can't be the case an unspent input is ever found spent.
asciilifeform: 1 process, in which all threads share (quite catastrophically, as readers of trb ml will know) the heap.
asciilifeform: i parsed it as the sense-making 'build to one binary'
asciilifeform: ( BingoBoingo quit drink, adlai, iirc, quit lsd, so there is no one left to think this sort of notion )
asciilifeform: 'requires 80% of gossipd' would be a stronger statement, but then i'd have to explain which 80
trinque: I was going to say the same, does require gossipd
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: just trying to get the guy up to speed
asciilifeform: (what does the thing that actually speaks with peers look like, in your view ? peers will ask for, and send, blocks AND tx, on same socket, as per current protocol.)
asciilifeform: trinque: it isn't , currently, clear to me that you can make this cut cleanly without hard-breaking with the traditional protocol.
davout: guess the "how do we then ban peers that send garbage" has been brought up wrt the network/data validation cleavage
ben_vulpes: davout: you know maybe i need another cup of coffee
a111: Logged on 2016-12-20 19:40 mircea_popescu: at the very least block digestion and peering must be cleaved in trb
davout: ben_vulpes: when aggregating the outputs, nuke those for which a spent out is found? it sounds pretty trivial to me, am i missing something obvious?
ben_vulpes: because "map-reduce" does not reduce to "here's how i'm going to solve specifically the case where thread n finds an unspent out and thread n+1 finds its spent and in the reducing phase i collate everything proper-like"
davout: i haven't thought about the rescanning approach much
asciilifeform: i get it, the 'decouple everything', 'unix philosophy!!!' thing is appealing. but it runs into practical limits.
trinque: asciilifeform: tx sender is just a "sendrawtxn" that eats the data from user. maybe he made the txn with other RPC calls, maybe got from elsewhere
asciilifeform: the sad part is that this is 'embarrassingly parallel'
ben_vulpes: davout: a full rescan of the blockchain takes ~12 hours on mod6's machine
davout: trinque: yeah, that's the kind of design i'd like to end up with
ben_vulpes: davout: or to lean on the clunk, right?
asciilifeform: trinque: what, in your analysis, is the set of orthogonal pieces 'wallet' breaks into ?
trinque: done right, it'd be cracking the thing into many tools with clear purpose
mod6: ben_vulpes: addys in the wallet
asciilifeform: davout: your (hypothetical? or is it done?) uncoupled-wallet -- what does it eat ?
ben_vulpes: mod6: listunspent takes arbitrary addresses or just what's in the wallet already?
mod6: that's just like the listunspent thing that i backported.
ben_vulpes: holy fuq nearly lost a toe on the ride in it's so cold
mircea_popescu: in other things that seem expensive, http://68.media.tumblr.com/8b667b77c63c92f2f4606e64e7723857/tumblr_o90ypvnzSL1rth3slo1_1280.jpg
davout: still working on my take on cutting the wallet out of TRB
a111: Logged on 2017-01-03 17:27 asciilifeform: i actually sat down to write a long and painfully pedantic piece about what i did, but gave up, let the diff speak for itself
mircea_popescu: for all the hatred of modern agriculture / plastics, this business beats the shit out of the 1980s method, cut the head and drill the screw.
mircea_popescu: jurov in practice, once you notice the screw is shedding, which should not ever happen ever, what you do is you put in one of those magnetic detachable screwdriver bits with cyanoacrylate. once it's cured you take the screw out and throw it away.
BingoBoingo: Other higher danger way to unstick screws http://www.kleintools.com/catalog/torque-and-impact-drivers/reversible-impact-driver-set
mircea_popescu: this should be a story, totally. man finds love of life, is glad, convinces her, discovers it dun fit, goes back through his hero's journey to get all the various helpers to help. finally he sticks it in her among the octopi, crabs, bat wings and other fit-makers
mircea_popescu: the idea is grandiose, a lengthy telescope of adaptors used by a guy standing on a box on a chair on a desk on a stair on a rope,.
BingoBoingo: And hope there isn't too much slack to eat impact
trinque: gotta be a narrow, long pipe out there that'd do
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> one or two stuck screws, and the hex slot in it , becomes circular. << Probably not "stuck", just married with "blue loctite" proper tool to free is bit, breaker bar, and mallet
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: yeah but the 'moment of truth' comes when you go and buy 3, 4 figure (usd) 'adult' item and get same.
asciilifeform: one or two stuck screws, and the hex slot in it , becomes circular.
mircea_popescu: hey, the notion that people want to do things has given way to the reality that people want to look like doing, appear to be doing, but safely (ie, not doing).
asciilifeform: to take entirely random example, top-of-the-line 'wiha' multihead screwdrivers, ALL now have plastic handles
asciilifeform: i've lost count of how many times i buy a not-the-cheapest $tool, and after 2-3 uses it crumbles into, literally, dust, and then buy 'nice' one, which half the time has been chinafied/plasticized already into very close resemblance to the el cheapo item, sometimes beyond any meaningful diff
mircea_popescu: have you talked with your lathe about its feelings ?
asciilifeform: i shit thee not
asciilifeform: e.g., harbour freight corp., sells lathes (not tiny ones, either, but proper-sized) with PLASTIC GEARS
asciilifeform: no shortage of these.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> the other hypothesis that invites itself is the tlp/mp 'ceremonial object' one. the, e.g., static mat, was sold on a www with reviews, and not necessarily faux ones. many satisfied sheeples own various tools and NEVER USE, and they -- are quite happy! << Like your HDX hacksaw!!!
mircea_popescu: the problerm with "everything is for retail" version of "man is the measure of all things" huh.
asciilifeform: i've yet to personally meet the howard hughes who buys cable by trainload for ~own house~.
asciilifeform: the folx who buy by the trainload, generally are happy to pass the scam on to their retail chumps tho.
asciilifeform: (if you buy by the hundy - you're a gnat, and will be hitting nobody with nothing)
asciilifeform: didja know it is nearly impossible to buy pure-cu ethernet snake ?
asciilifeform: questionable metallurgy is another thing. not only pb-free solder, but, e.g., aluminum wire.
asciilifeform: the other hypothesis that invites itself is the tlp/mp 'ceremonial object' one. the, e.g., static mat, was sold on a www with reviews, and not necessarily faux ones. many satisfied sheeples own various tools and NEVER USE, and they -- are quite happy!
asciilifeform: i must echo the words of mircea_popescu's electric heater article, and say, that such a thing could never appear by chance, someone busted his arse to design something so malignantly anti-functional .
asciilifeform: because the thing that was supposed to sit in the socket, would wiggle, like 'hotdog in hallway'
mircea_popescu: and thereby working more as antenna
asciilifeform: (the speakers -- did not care.)
asciilifeform: i recall i threw one just like this out, and kept , to my grief, its transformer. which then nuked $1000+ worth of various iron i connected it to, because the voltage it put out was actually ~double what was on the sticker.
mircea_popescu: each had a different story of sadness, and all together they could have made a small rocket. if only their materials weren't allocated by idiots, that is.
mircea_popescu: the last pair died in the lulziest of ways : it's usb powered, and it will short the usb when the sound is loud enough, lose power, then come back a half second later.
asciilifeform: they burn out ?
mircea_popescu: in the same vein, i have now spent in excess of $300 buying no less than nine "pc sound systems" over the past 2 years. i have nfi why i decided to just buy one of the cheapo, two speaker things. and then replace it and so on.
asciilifeform: in other noose, asciilifeform recently bought a 'top of the line' civilian motherboard, and as soon as being lifted from the crate, it shed a few 0805 capacitors
asciilifeform: 'what could be better than 800KB of makefile! and perl to make the makefile!'
trinque: heh, I'll not link the shithub
mircea_popescu: they don't just release binaries ?!
asciilifeform: and i was quite surprised when starting trb and noticing that it was absent there.
mircea_popescu: another's bile might not do.
mircea_popescu: the reason you are stuck with it is that apparently the soul resides in the gall bladder.
asciilifeform: (but if someone ~else~ wants to take the diff, and write article -- do not hesitate)
mircea_popescu: the driver isn't "this is how we got the perfect woman" ; the driver is "and this is how separating one of these ugly argentine schmucks from her fambly and society goes"
mircea_popescu: the process is of interest.
asciilifeform: the other thing is that i'm not entirely convinced that i was barking up a useful tree there.
mircea_popescu: i think that wasn't the right choice.
asciilifeform: i actually sat down to write a long and painfully pedantic piece about what i did, but gave up, let the diff speak for itself
mircea_popescu: for later, have a proper example of wehat these metaphors mean.
asciilifeform: it was also a demo of the utter malignant idiocy of automake (zapped! and you won't miss it, thing builds on all major unixlikes with a single 'make')
asciilifeform: there were tentacles throughout.
asciilifeform: re 'open sores', even a ~very~ small gadget, and in fact one that started life as a stand-alone library: mpi (bignum) piece of gpg 1.4, was quite astonishingly painful to properly saw off the kochball
asciilifeform: (chukchas and many neighbouring tribes had an entire thing where they would lower deer into a swamp, and dig him up months, sometimes years, later, and eat. apparently putrefaction toxins can be 'trained for', from childhood even. rather like strychnine.)
mircea_popescu: dja know btw there's an entire subculture living off those ?
asciilifeform: you will have more luck recycling a rotting deer carcass in the road.
a111: Logged on 2017-01-03 13:50 Framedragger: (fwiw sandboxing efforts look nice and more technically involved; question is how easy it'd be to apply work done there to other browsers and so on; if not, meh)
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-03#1595417 << firefox, if you have not had the misfortune to look at the internals, is quite like other 'open sores' in that it is ~impossible to meaningfully recycle any part of it in 'other' (supposedly they are in fact ~other~, and not minor variations on the original) projects
mircea_popescu: but that's kinda the point. avoid specificity of diddling
asciilifeform: as it is, no one who understands the actual purpose of tor could possibly suffer illusions re firefox, or vice-versa
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-03#1595397 << the various leprosoria ~could~ have an actual sporting shot! at maintaining successful pretense of independence , if they were to not do this kind of obvious 'we all pull shitpatches from one another' circus
mircea_popescu: 5.05% over the past 30 days.
mircea_popescu: anyway, the only good news on that front is that fees are consistently over 5% of the block reward.
asciilifeform: none of these observations disprove a scenario where both are fingerpuppets.
asciilifeform: either ineptly, or wanted to leak a bit.
mircea_popescu: leaking the info quite so ineptly ?
mircea_popescu: these people aren't checking ANYTHING.
mircea_popescu: the fucking odds of this ? bw.com and btc.com boundry, and it really doesn't look like there's more than 18 seconds delay. so btc.com checked the block 446460 and built on it and found a block within ~15 seconds ?
mircea_popescu: because they've never done this before, about 12 or so times since 1880 ; not that it EVER fucking worked , nor that the "great powers" that wanna be, and until the last boot steps on the last bureaucrat face will continue to pretend to be, are actually capable of learning or anything.
trinque: if we want to get out the real tin foil for a minute, somebody might suspect the "great powers" have been planning on how to restructure the middle east *together*
asciilifeform: am i the only one who recalls the fanfare re ru supposedly selling s400 rocket system to s.a. ? if true, possibly they also want in on the spoils
asciilifeform: difference (at least afaik, from armchair) is that ru would have to actually fight, but usg would only need to press a few buttons and turn off the (u.s.-made) air defense systems of s.a.
trinque: lulzy, so US-istan is unique in its scam and plunder campaign for a few paragraphs, then "lets get the rest of the major powers to all plunder saudi together"
mircea_popescu: yes, russian policy in middle east is pretty much centered in squashing the saudis.
asciilifeform: e well before then. It might as well be the Americans: they started this shambolic desert kingdom; they might as well be the ones to put it out of its misery.'
asciilifeform: 'If Trump doesn’t crack open the chocolate egg that is Saudi Arabia and run off with the toy inside, then somebody else will. Saudi Arabia’s days are numbered. For now, it is still rich in money, oil, sand and imbeciles, but it is burning through the first two faster and faster. Just wait a decade or so, and the sand and the imbeciles will be all that’s left. Somebody will try to get to them and snatch what’s left of the priz
asciilifeform: meanwhile, from the dept. of orlols, http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2017/01/how-to-make-america-great-again-with.html >> '...This was the last time the Americans were able to run off with a fantastic amount of other people’s money, giving the US yet another temporary lease on life.'
shinohai: "But for complex reasons, Wilcox had to prevent the calculations from ever being seen." http://archive.is/m9i1U
mircea_popescu: anyway, http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2011/08/grade_inflation.html ; total must-read.
mircea_popescu: actually -- to try and convice him to sign a statement beseaching all the other teachers never EVER to try.
mircea_popescu: wasting his money." quoth the endearigly naive mr ballas. except the counter to this is in disgrace, the novel, of course : when a teacher does finally, for incomprehensible reasons, try, the OTHER TEACHERS assemble a panel to try and con
mircea_popescu: "The "college is a scam" train is one on which I'm all aboard, but that doesn't mean each individual professor has to be scamming students; there's no reason why he can't do a good job and teach his students something that they aren't going to get simply by reading the text. If a student can skip class and still ace the class, the kid is either very bright or the professor is utterly useless. Right? Either way, the kid's
mircea_popescu: http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/images/grade%20inflation.jpg << fucking epic graph. if enough eyes watch it, there's no further need for Cs.
mircea_popescu: shinohai the "altcorn" eh. bien trouve.
mircea_popescu: fucking idiots, "oh, in this very narrow sliver of experience that is our irrelevant if self-important life, x observation held so far, especially because he have no fucking clue as to statistics, logic, or anything else. THEREFORE IT IS A NATURAL LAW OF THE UNYVERSE!!!"
adlai: mircea_popescu: nah, back in middle school mrs whatsit told me not to forget those because they help to end e sentence, yet mene hesn't even begen yet!
adlai: happy integer fiats since genesis, o chanl of the schemer's truth
mircea_popescu: it's not a strategy for anything than for the pernicious insanity of "marketing matters".
Framedragger: some airlines (such as ryanair) try to stuff the user with tons of shitty offers before reservation confirmation page. horribru UX. such m0netizzation $trategy. imbeciles indeed :/
Framedragger: this one time, i was scriptifying cheap flight booking. was amazed how less-laggy the simulated/automated 'browsing experience' (website didn't like bots, needed to convince it by running part of actual browser) was (cf. manual clicking on airline's website). got depressed
mircea_popescu: how the fuck would it lag, really now.
Framedragger: i suppose you also avoid the 'why does a multibillion clock machine lag on key press omfg' fail as icing on the cake.
mircea_popescu: for a browser ? come on. it's not good. the only thing it had going for it were a bunch of retards using it. now it doesn't even have that.
Framedragger: (fwiw sandboxing efforts look nice and more technically involved; question is how easy it'd be to apply work done there to other browsers and so on; if not, meh)
Framedragger: so suddenly the numbers of wide populace matter? :)
mircea_popescu: Framedragger nah, it's been going on for 2-3 years at the least.
mircea_popescu: both chrome and, insanely, ie, the ie above, ate it.
mircea_popescu: which is in itself a very amusing commentary on the toils and travails of the jwz gang. they... rescued netscape. and it did... netscape.
Framedragger: because of the recent whatitwas?
mircea_popescu: Framedragger you are aware firefox is dead for all practical purposes, yes ? in fact i don't know any browser that lost market share at its speed, except of course netscape back in the day.
Framedragger: so turn off such on-by-default leakage (and other leakages for fingerprinting), etc.
Framedragger: simple, high-entropy fingerprint of a computer. In fact, the hash of the rendered image can be used almost identically to a tracking cookie by the web server."
Framedragger: certainly nothing of huge import. some of those are definitely a bit snakeoil'y, but not completely useless. i don't know how much you care about e.g. browser fingerprinting. right now html5 canvas leaks badly, i.e. "The adversary simply renders WebGL, font, and named color data to a Canvas element, extracts the image buffer, and computes a hash of that image data. Subtle differences in the video card, font packs, and even font and graph
mircea_popescu: in other lulz : <!-- Ticket #11289, IE bug fix: always pad the error page with enough characters such that it is greater than 512 bytes, even after gzip compression abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz1234567890aabbccddeeffgghhiijjkkllmmnnooppqqrrssttuuvvwwxxyyzz11223344556677889900abacbcbdcdcededfefegfgfhghgihihjijikjkjlklkmlmlnmnmononpopoqpqprqrqsrsrtstsubcbcdcdedefefgfabcadefbghicjkldmnoepqrfstugvwxhyz1i234j567k890laabmbccnddeoeffpg
a111: Logged on 2017-01-03 05:24 mircea_popescu: meanwhile in not-terrible blogs, http://thetarpit.org/posts/y03/055-on-education.html
BingoBoingo: And in African it derives from the man Petrus telling the boy David that building is skilled work as David plays gopher for Petrus's tools
mircea_popescu: of course, he got half of the discussion of etymology of engineering from the older discussion ; it's true that in french it comes from ingenuity however in english it comes from engine. which was the fucking point, this slide.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile in not-terrible blogs, http://thetarpit.org/posts/y03/055-on-education.html
mircea_popescu: and in other disbelief, http://68.media.tumblr.com/98ca711f5c182ad59659a3dcda925f17/tumblr_o3qciviaCT1uzvpfmo1_1280.jpg
a111: Logged on 2016-12-24 17:45 asciilifeform: this 'works' is a pestilence and is largely why clueful greybeards from the meat world , e.g., mircea_popescu , unzip and piss on programmers simply for sport
mircea_popescu: anyway - the whole discussion was re c++ ; i use c to denote it, owing to the factual situation that there's no other c in practice ; which yes is a sly comment in the vein of http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-24#1590234 but then what are you gonna do.
mircea_popescu: and yes, they have. entertained whole flight with discussion of vehicle steering. where "vehicle" ( {bus, ship, submarine, airplane, ..., satellite}
asciilifeform: trinque: iirc he stuffed ecl in there
trinque: oh sure, no argument here. but then go and rewrite a compatible gcc
trinque: yes, one can memorize a mapping between some phenomena and their effects, and this does not amount to "understands computers"
trinque: one moment "nobody can fit c machine in head" and the next "anyone can c puny human!1!1!!"
asciilifeform: and student knows asm because started there
a111: Logged on 2017-01-02 21:40 mircea_popescu: if the same archbishop inquires as to why i poured cement the way i did i can answer without ado.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-02#1595305 << last iirc, the exact chemical mechanism of cement curing was not fully known
a111: Logged on 2017-01-02 21:36 mircea_popescu: what do you answer when they ask "what do {} do" ?
asciilifeform: (and if you think you can answer how the fuck , e.g., flaps, work, see the von karman parable!)
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-02#1595276 << i am now picturing mircea_popescu's 'well-balanced being' asking 'why' of the controls of 'airbus'
a111: Logged on 2017-01-02 21:22 mircea_popescu: 90% of my audible output was "your question can not be answered in that general form". tears were shed, of rage and frustration. towards the third day i recited from the molieben of st naggum, the part where he says c makes people lie, and there was THANK YOU! GOOD GOD!
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-02#1595266 << plox to reread naggum , this and the other pieces were about cpp
BingoBoingo: Party in the Parity
mircea_popescu: and since i'm on a moldy tome kick, let's note down ܝܳܠܕܰܬ ܐܰܠܳܗܳܐ ie joldath allaho. in syriac. because yes, even as egypt was mostly christian in its recent history (just as all of the "arabic" middle east), allah exists in arabic as a corruption of a syriac notation of a greek interpretation of a hebrew name for god.
BingoBoingo: Ah, the mike_c legacy. If it's good and no one remembers who made it, probably mike_c
mircea_popescu: a cool then
mircea_popescu: i guess prolly a good idea to make copies then, jic
trinque: student just gets dumped on an island, ends up maybe with some survival skills and the superstitions that come along with not being able to know what lurks in the night.
mircea_popescu: funny that all the schmucks declaratively anti-racism and dedicated to you know, "unlocking human potential" aren't in the slightest preoccupied with doing anything in the vein of their declared interests.
trinque: yep. other than a system built atop simple first principles (scheme or forth-a-tron) I don't see that a sensible approach to learning can be had.
mircea_popescu: however it's not just that nobody "involved" in "development" of $modern-software package can't make a statement of any kind in this sense. it goes all the way back before the crays.
mircea_popescu: o cases where it is false. this is the wot model - to be signed it must not be false because if it is false then you get negrated don't you.
mircea_popescu: but yes, the thing V brings to light, slowly, and evidently painfully, is that the rot did not start within our lifetimes. there's almost a century of subjugation of sense for the sake of convenience, inaugurated like all insanity during the war and maintained hence. the standard of "make a statement about x" does not reduce to "here you go" "is it true ?" "well, at least in one case it is". properly speaking, there must be n
mircea_popescu: of course the end result of reason's nap are monsters.
mircea_popescu: why should it get to. nobody at the wheel, car goes where it pleases, horse shall graze as it might ?
mircea_popescu: it's not of the nature of, we go for a walk, and now the flat turns into rolling hills and we are in a forest and the trail eventually takes us up to a mountain. nothing of the kind. it's that we go up to the water line, wherein we don the scuba gear, and enter an entirely new world.
mircea_popescu: which is why my conclusion is rather that hackathons are actually impossible in this context.
mircea_popescu: but it's a hackathon not a course in theoretical cs ; we're not at liberty to not write one line of code within the first six months ; we must start within five minutes. yes that which you say exists, but this different other thing also exists. why doesn't it ?
trinque: better to start from what an AST is, preferably in a language where levels of AST are delimited in the same manner always
diana_coman: heh, I specifically avoided saying "group statements together" because I did not know how much/whether they knew about statements
mircea_popescu: if the same archbishop inquires as to why i poured cement the way i did i can answer without ado.
diana_coman: and btw there was no c, lol
mircea_popescu: god knows i can explain math in such a manner ; what the fuck is so special about algorithmics.
diana_coman: first in 9th grade when first introduced to procedural programming; 2nd and even more clearly a few years later when I got into functional programming - it required a change of thinking simply, it wasn't natural in either case
mircea_popescu: tis not an easy problem. moreover it's not even clear to me why it exists in the first place.
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski that's the problem, right there. yes, maybe. why would someone want to talk t oyou when all you have to say are maybes.
mircea_popescu: and by "perfectly functioning brain" i don't mean they're qualified to work the cash register. suppose one day the bishop of vad comes to you and asks you that. the man knows plenty of things, what do you say to him SO THAT YOU DO NOT LIE.
mircea_popescu: what do you answer when they ask "what do {} do" ?
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, I don't think I basically get enough of what it was that was going on there to comment much further
BingoBoingo: A number of women make fine MEN in the model of Petrus.
pete_dushenski: see mp's latest comment on the article
pete_dushenski: which is why calling the open eulora bot coding competition FOR MEN ONLY "a hackathon" seems... odd.
pete_dushenski: diana_coman: the "results" of "real hackathons" ? some lulz and some memories of "that one time" mostly.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman consider - there isn't a general statement of "what is it exactly {} do". this is already a fine and complete statement.
mircea_popescu: that i can't answer for. but some kind of model as to why deleting inside curly braces works, but not outside they've formed.
mircea_popescu: understand - most of the convention is opaque in a proper sense. merely discovering that {} must be preserved, for instance, took time.
diana_coman: the way I see it is that they are basically constraints - of all sorts and not necessarily of some overall design/rationality/logical stuff; if you insist for some reason to do something in that environment, then you have to work within those constraints, as nonsensical as they might be
diana_coman: lol; but yes, no sense there, not sure anybody claimed sense in C types
mircea_popescu: "i read about the types, none make any sense, they just keep declaring, what the fuck is it and how should you know!"
mircea_popescu: 90% of my audible output was "your question can not be answered in that general form". tears were shed, of rage and frustration. towards the third day i recited from the molieben of st naggum, the part where he says c makes people lie, and there was THANK YOU! GOOD GOD!
diana_coman: hm; do you mean they had it all nicely and well done in pseudo-code/whatever logical structure and THEN they just failed miserably to translate that to C code?
mircea_popescu: all everyone ever sees are people 10+ years into the dementia. and the "sense" things make to them.
mircea_popescu: it's hard, C i mean, in that it is nonsensical. nobody appreciates truly just how nonsensical it is (except eg naggum, he wrote about it) because nobody actually keeps slaves, in the proper sense of the term, and thus nobody gets to see an actual, balanced human mind interact with the ball of insanity.
mircea_popescu: fwiw i personally "shoulder surfed" as i hear it's called two diff people who tried their fucking best to do it. in the end managed as much as to get a command registered and to say hi world! but that was all. well over 30 hours of brow sweat.
diana_coman: kind of curious what does pete_dushenski consider as "results" in such a case: number of participants? the "atmosphere"?
a111: Logged on 2017-01-02 20:28 Framedragger: (and according to .kr banks, have a few people sit at table and literally stare at teams, making notes. such conservative bank, hasn't changed them into robots yet)