ben_vulpes: phf: and on this, the third consecutive day of asking, would you kindly acknowledge receipt?
asciilifeform: remove-old-liver-then-go-stroll-around-liverless -- not.
asciilifeform: remove-old-liver-then-immediately-install-new -- a-ok.
trinque: the wallet merely generates inputs trb will validate or not independently of it
asciilifeform: what do you intend to use ? you want to put #ifdefs in for the wallet ?
asciilifeform: also i admit to a deep curiosity, the folx itching to dump the wallet without offering a new one, what the hell are you lot transacting WITH ?
trinque: must be right next to the "fork topic" button
davout: asciilifeform: trb is about keeping the core, prb is about "moar featurez"
ben_vulpes: davout: there are many parts of a kalash that are not strictly ergonomic.
davout: ben_vulpes: yeh, not that the miner-snipping doesn't itch
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: no argument, but i do not see the point of moving output indexer into a separate bin given that it needs a live blockchain anyways.
asciilifeform: grandfather's pistol.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i am all for moving the miner to own binary. BUT you would then have to test it and somehow demonstrate that it in fact behaves IDENTICALLY to the original
trinque: nothing helps me generate a valid lisp statement for sbcl other than I pop one in
davout: ben_vulpes: but even if separate binary i see this more as a "reference wallet" in the same way the "reference miner" demonstrates what a miner does, but isn't actually used by anyone professionnally issuing transactions
trinque: for someone with such unwieldy metaphors, allow me that one. whether it was an RI was not my point
ben_vulpes: i don't see the benefits to the increase of binary compilation targets to 3 from the one extant.
ben_vulpes: davout: what /currently/ compiles as the single binary "trb"
ben_vulpes: now /that/ i am sold on slicing from the node.
davout: i'm not really sure whether transaction signature itself should stay in trb or be extracted out
ben_vulpes: i am still not sold on moving the wallet outside of what compiles as "trb"
davout: asciilifeform: if trb provides sane endpoints the wallet can be written in whatever floats anyone's boat
davout: wallet tells you what coin you can spend, you select the particular outputs, you define the outputs, it may warn you if the implied fee is ridiculous but that's it
asciilifeform: and quite similar to the 'what is my ip' thing, which i shot.
asciilifeform: the estimator is of 0 use.
asciilifeform: in fact, until we nailed down the dependencies all the way down to the kernel and gcc, it was possible to argue that trb does not define bitcoin.
davout: asciilifeform: to me there is and remains a difference in kind between "the thing that defines what money is" and "the particulars of your personal wallet"
asciilifeform: anyway who wants to do the 10 minutes of work to prepare a wallet snip, go ahead, just be aware that you will have to repeat most of said work by the time replacement wallet is a thing.
trinque: and now we're on the n-th conversation fork
asciilifeform: the even faint implication that i ought to so much as consider heathen nontrb wallets.
asciilifeform: and it is 99% of my rage, re 'lose the wallet'.
asciilifeform: and the last time, someone DID IN FACT SAY 'use python wallet'
trinque: I don't think anyone brought his cock into the matter
asciilifeform: or to the orphanages ?
asciilifeform: but to lose functionality, however uncommonly needed, that does exactly 0 harm, and the loss of which reduces by no amount the labour of a trb code reader, is at best a snore.
asciilifeform: i get it, folx watched asciilifeform swing the axe, and it looked like great fun, nao everybody wants.
asciilifeform: that enemy shoved in as attempt to exploit the node.
asciilifeform: suppose i gotta verify the signature on a malformed tx.
davout: maybe we can have trb-classic then trollface.jpg
davout: and i really don't understand how keeping stuff around is sane when the functionality is an operator knob-turn away anyway
trinque: this ends up meaning slashing probably everything that doesn't keep the current network protocol running
trinque: there are goals at odds here. to fix the nightmare that is current trb, gotta start slashing til you have something that's able to be comprehended
trinque: and eventually there's a process of regrinding and so on
trinque: I don't think it's a sin for davout to go slashing and cauterizing in one direction, meanwhile reference client proceeds in another
davout: asciilifeform: with this kind of reasoning we'd end up keeping the "accounting" feature around
trinque: asciilifeform: http://logs.bvulpes.com/trilema-mod6?d=2016-12-19#ca75f916-f2c1-46a7-b3ba-27b0ac6f3e26 << thereabouts
ben_vulpes: davout: consider #!/bin/bash and set -e to make the thing die if any subprocesses return non-zero
davout: asciilifeform: the trb tree has a "continuity-preserving" mission, not "current trb official version"
asciilifeform: davout: yes, they could 'rebuild historical trb' but imho if this is a kind of thing that ever becomes necessary, trb will have failed in its continuity-preserving mission.
thestringpuller: davout: that's why I think the UTXO probing is interesting. Easier to search ~2GB and ~100GB for the information you want.
davout: asciilifeform: archaeologists can build a verifymessage-capable trb, couldn't they?
asciilifeform: trinque: trb already exists in multiple branches, such is the nature of vtronics.
davout: thestringpuller: i see, currently it's really not practical
asciilifeform: while it is imho stupid to generate such signatures and rely on them for any practical use,
davout: asciilifeform: well for example, the "remove signmessage and verifymessage" patch could very well be considered ready for production, it cuts something, not something anyone sane would actually depend on
thestringpuller: i'm using the blockchain itself to get the UTXO for forming new transaction when creating raw TX with bitcoin, this requires searching teh blockchain or using ben_vulpes tool
asciilifeform: davout: it is good, and healthy, to 'target practice' with the toolchain. but please try to clearly note this.
davout: but appreciate that i'm a fucking noob and i need to have something to get started, at least with the toolchain, not that it has to make official release until it's actually done you know
asciilifeform: then i have nothing else to disagree with
asciilifeform: cut old liver ~when new one is sitting on the table, steaming, ready to transplant~
thestringpuller: davout: no. I'm just curious if there is a way to scrape UTXO's now, cause for my wallet tron I'm scraping blocks themselves. Def not O(n). (don't laugh)
davout: thestringpuller: you're asking me what trajectory i'm going to take at 200mph for that turn, i'm at the point where i'm still wondering how to turn the goddamn car on
asciilifeform: davout: this is theoretically possible. in practice it seems like the direct opposite happens ?
davout: asciilifeform: take 20 UTXOs spend them in one go to a single address, poof! UTXO set has shrunk
thestringpuller: is there a way to scrape the UTXO set in TRB or do you have to do that manually as of now?
asciilifeform: nor is there any promise from any god that it will stay below 2GB, or 20, or 20,000, it is doomed to increase
davout: also the UTXO set might very well decrease
asciilifeform: davout: if you're happy to wait for 30 min to an hour every time you unsheath the 'launch codes' -- then yes.
trinque: were you going to interrogate the utxos every block or something?
davout: trinque: text files with private keys sounds like the sane approach to me
trinque: there was a decent thread on how 'wallet' end up being 'arbitrary declared index of declared addresses'
davout: thestringpuller: UTXO set is ~2gb tops, indexing might be nice but necessary to scan for UTXOs that match a given set of addresses, also the wallet part can cache them if that particular wallet is the only one able to actually spend those UTXIs
asciilifeform: otherwise you get it in O(N).
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: if you want it in O(1) , yes
asciilifeform: but not only will i not sign such a thing, i question the sanity of anyone who would.
trinque: this whole thead could've been "I will not sign the excision unless it brings also the replacement wallet" ... "k" ... fin
trinque: guy's entirely ready to discuss the thing
davout: asciilifeform: there's a difference between "not yet" and "never"
a111: Logged on 2017-01-27 18:53 davout: but also appreciate the fact that i'm a fine position to know what is painful, retarded, and needs to die in bitcoin when it comes to issuing transaction
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-27#1608173 << doubful that's in question; still working both sides of the cut at once will be instructive
asciilifeform: what are the knobs, davout , if you remove the wallet and offer no equivalent replacement ?
asciilifeform: davout: pretty much everyone tuned in has experienced firsthand the retardation of the old walletron.
davout: but also appreciate the fact that i'm a fine position to know what is painful, retarded, and needs to die in bitcoin when it comes to issuing transaction
asciilifeform: but to remove vital organs and replace them with 'promise to give new liver later!!!' is lunacy.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu had a pretty good imho description of the necessary cutting-apart of trb
davout: asciilifeform: i never said this wasn't on the table
asciilifeform: it'd be one thing if davout proposed the cut ~in tandem with~ a standalone walletron. even if it were made entirely out of the old one.
davout: is it like the platinum "one meter" buried somewhere for "reference" or is it "the bitcoin implementation that is the reference because it's sane, it works, and can be used in production"
asciilifeform: it's the WHOLE FUCKING POINT of a reference client.
asciilifeform: i'm with ben_vulpes . it's a motherfucking REFERENCE CLIENT
asciilifeform: or is the plan to create (why???) a quite-useless castrato-trb.
davout: mod6: ty, will try the gnu-awk thing
jhvh1: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: !~later tell mircea_popescu is there a translation of http://trilema.com/2011/oul-morganatic/ ?
a111: Logged on 2017-01-25 23:42 ben_vulpes: in other gabriel_laddel comments that have babe army swooning: https://status451.com/2017/01/20/days-of-rage/
asciilifeform: and in a lulzy continuation of http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-25#1606755 >> in the fishwrap: http://archive.is/wnygX
asciilifeform: the sheer multilayer butthurt..
asciilifeform: 'Reached by phone Wednesday, O’Grady, 33, said she has struggled to plug the stream of hateful messages that have inundated her Twitter feed and Facebook page since Tuesday morning, leaving her “defeated and dejected.”'
asciilifeform: Many of the accounts use the official logos of the departments they claim to represent, like the Environmental Protection Agency, NASA, or various regional park services.'
asciilifeform: in quite other lulz, http://archive.is/v8l8N >> 'The @AltNatParkSer account was quickly followed by dozens more. There are now at least 50 "unofficial" or "alternative" accounts purporting to represent the views of government staffers or agencies.
asciilifeform: also apparently you can (sorta) get these off the shelf, e.g., https://www.controlanything.com/Relay/Device/USBFOI
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> i read through the english speaking press wrt trump's first week. qntra is by far the better source. << ty
asciilifeform: and this counts only ~official~ agencies (rather than, e.g., 'palantir')
mircea_popescu: however many. the woman's barren owing to advanced age and abundant curetages in youth, there's nothing coming out her rotten eggs regardless.
a111: Logged on 2017-01-27 10:33 davout: my first attempt at something that'd somehow resemble a vpatch (when the light is just right!) -> http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/JTh3K/?raw=true
mod6: <+asciilifeform> http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-27#1608062 << that looks like an ordinary unix diff << yup. and if you got an error when running vdiff, some of us have run into this on various linux boxes. iirc the solution was to install a newer version of gnu-awk.
asciilifeform: i shit thee not.
mircea_popescu: except of course they already got like 4 kgbs
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this re the nsa/cybercom split..?
mircea_popescu: in other lulz, "The most notable public opposition came from Senate Armed Service Committee Chairman John McCain, who promised to block any such move. Senator McCains objections were primarily procedural and not substantive (i.e., he was upset he learned about the recommendation almost second-hand at the hearing, instead of by official channels)."
asciilifeform: (rather than , as one could naively suppose ) starvation, or 'honest work'
mod6: <+davout> http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-September/000168.html <<< this still correct? << yup.
mircea_popescu: the shedding of 500k federal jobs in dc is underway, by the way. people are making financial arrangements, such as getting out of mortgages.
mircea_popescu: i read through the english speaking press wrt trump's first week. qntra is by far the better source.
mircea_popescu: this counts above fucking the woman, in my book.
mircea_popescu: when i die i'll be shown the list of everyone's favourite trilemas and spend the rest of the afterlife in shock.
asciilifeform: or just snoring on the job?
a111: Logged on 2017-01-27 12:41 mircea_popescu: what the fuck is a police station for, other than l'attaque d'une bande cagoulee ?
a111: Logged on 2017-01-27 10:33 davout: my first attempt at something that'd somehow resemble a vpatch (when the light is just right!) -> http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/JTh3K/?raw=true
a111: Logged on 2017-01-27 10:29 davout: or remove the dependencies one by one until removing the wallet is merely a "rm wallet.cpp" away
a111: Logged on 2014-02-17 19:02 asciilifeform: 'some demented people in gulag during the years of the cult, for their amusement, would select women from the contigent of 'enemies of the people' and for 'some sin' sit them down upon anthills.' bottom: 'young women who refused to become lovers of their executioners in gulag would be sat upon anthills, tied to trees, 'for the mosquitoes and ants.' sometimes a pipe would be inserted, made from a reed or a birc
mircea_popescu: yeah, well, at some point someone thought "hey, i know, we'll wear shit on our heads and go break people's doors". the obvious "then people will wear shit on their heads break your door" however got handwaved, because there's nothing specialer than a special snowflake.
mircea_popescu: and in other news, some dude apparently goes and pours aluminum into fire anthills, sells the resulting casts.
mircea_popescu: this activity would be the v-equivalent of "stable release"
mircea_popescu: let the job of merging be done later, that's the idea. eventually as the chains get long and review has progressed significantly, people can rebase multiple patches into one.
mircea_popescu: davout even if the whole bundle is released in one go, it is probably best practice to do the snips one at a time in that many patches.
davout: my first attempt at something that'd somehow resemble a vpatch (when the light is just right!) -> http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/JTh3K/?raw=true
davout: getting a feel for the whole patch authoring process without touching anything very sensitive
davout: i've started by simply removing the signmessage and verifymessage functionality
davout: or remove the dependencies one by one until removing the wallet is merely a "rm wallet.cpp" away
davout: either remove the wallet and everything that depends on it in one go (pretty much everything that uses keys stored by the client)
davout: so with the eventual goal of cleanly amputating the wallet off of TRB I'm kind of wondering what the best approach is here,
davout: well actually, the three revisions seem to reference the same vdiff.sh, which apparently works, but gives me some error messages
davout: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-September/000168.html <<< this still correct?
mircea_popescu: also look into the pgp reg thng
snowbound33: I'll come back here at some point in the near future. I'm holding off for now, I want to set up a bouncer first if I'm going to be active in irc again
snowbound33: no, sorry, I didn't write that article about the book. That was a guest post
mircea_popescu: anyway, there's a whole pile of stuff. but no, i didn't think you wrote the book you reviewed.
mircea_popescu: there's also a web interface.
mircea_popescu: there's a log, you can search through it with
a111: Logged on 2017-01-25 23:42 ben_vulpes: in other gabriel_laddel comments that have babe army swooning: https://status451.com/2017/01/20/days-of-rage/
asciilifeform: in very other lulz, https://media.guim.co.uk/4a2b95b94d8e10acc053c5a61f2f0c317ca6bd91/0_266_4096_2462/4096.jpg
mircea_popescu: there's bonus points for the "right kind" of jobs - for instance hiring black people detracts from the fundamental racism of the entire scheme (really, why should schmuck be deemed entitled to "fair wage" because his mother dropped him on his head in new jersey rather than golania ?) and so it's + points etcetera.
mircea_popescu: that's the baseline.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1607965 << actually they are, pretty much. usg public contracting is very transparently an exercise in subsidizing the population ; odds of you getting a contract are entirely a function of some senator "creating jobs".
asciilifeform: because nobody cancelled green's theorem.
asciilifeform: i actually painted my 'model f' with conductive paint, 5 coats. it still radiates, from the cable.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: they aint even tryin' any moar
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 22:42 asciilifeform: 'There is a carry propagating bug in the x86_64 Montgomery squaring procedure. No EC algorithms are affected. Analysis suggests that attacks against RSA and DSA as a result of this defect would be very difficult to perform and are not believed likely. Attacks against DH are considered just feasible (although very difficult) because...
asciilifeform: (copper wire is ~orders of magnitude~ costlier than even the finest glass fiber.)
asciilifeform: other than this.
asciilifeform: now in some cheap gear there IS light leakage at the connector. but nothing black varnish wouldn't solve.
asciilifeform: and the transceivers are still made by toshiba and quite well-built (conductive plastic shield, for instance.)
BingoBoingo: Awe, I thought by "community health" they were going to unveil WikiBamaCare!
asciilifeform: 'Let us hope this gives the WF the resorces it needs to complete the Code of Conduct for Technical Spaces which is not yet ready for the Community to vote on after having been suggested at Wikimania 2015'
asciilifeform: 'Today, the Wikimedia Foundation announced the launch of a community health initiative to address harassment and toxic behavior on Wikipedia, with initial funding of US$500,000 from the Craig Newmark Foundation and craigslist Charitable Fund. The two seed grants, each US$250,000, will support the development of tools for volunteer editors and staff to reduce harassment on Wikipedia and block
asciilifeform: what if i were Officially Sad and typed with my arse, and have no mouse. what then.
asciilifeform: did somebody cancel the clinton-era invalid 'accessibility' law while i slept in my cave..?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes, other crappletronicists : also lulzy is that dialog boxes in recent crapple os are no longer TAB-navigable
asciilifeform: as if anyone gave half a shit about any attacker but the One.
asciilifeform: ' The amount of resources required for such an attack would be very significant and likely only accessible to a limited number of attackers.' << lel
jhvh1: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: !~later tell ben_vulpes plox to enlighten me, a poor sinner, why did crapple break the HOME and END keys ? what did they ever do to'em ?
asciilifeform: 'There is a carry propagating bug in the x86_64 Montgomery squaring procedure. No EC algorithms are affected. Analysis suggests that attacks against RSA and DSA as a result of this defect would be very difficult to perform and are not believed likely. Attacks against DH are considered just feasible (although very difficult) because...
asciilifeform: in other lulz, https://mta.openssl.org/pipermail/openssl-announce/2017-January/000094.html
asciilifeform: (and their associated support machinery -- whores, drivers, et al)
asciilifeform: what's in sf other than sv/pg bubbletrons?
asciilifeform: new england is where they keep academitards; and lockheed.
asciilifeform: trinque: i have not been there. i associate it mentally with galois corp., the outfit to which usg.nsa subcontracts a good chunk of critical dev work
trinque: there will however be a lot of californians to deport
trinque: there's a reason I moved home, and why Portland ~never~ became home.
asciilifeform: it ended?! i missed the memo...
mircea_popescu: the burning of ub is significant culturally. they won't rebuild it because TO THEM those aren't just some shitty yurts.
asciilifeform: whereas you could not burn ulan batur in 1700s, what, they just gotta make new yurts.
asciilifeform: whether you are under stalin, or fdr, or mao, whoever.
asciilifeform: is there a shortage of idiots where trinque lives today ?
ben_vulpes: "yeah who knows he probably has a container of servers on his land somewhere, but he also keeps the entire region connected to the bitcoin net so anyone who fucks with him fucks with the whole valley"
ben_vulpes: don't bury a container of xyz much less tell anyone about it. be indispensable to the people who feed you.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: 'fix their cars' is more viable.
asciilifeform: trinque: ask the syrians, or iraqis, how profitable is refinery when there is measurable chance of it eating a thermite grenade on particular day
ben_vulpes: so don't. fix their cars instead.
trinque: I was referring to the state
ben_vulpes: here's the spectre of atomized americans again.
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 16:34 mircea_popescu: if we're the target rather than other place it's time to slim down the org.
mircea_popescu: not at all. look at the incentive structure. for one thing, they knew the ride isn't going forever so it's planned. for the other, a http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1607386 is long overdue by now
mircea_popescu: if they can proceed, see trinque above.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: in re china embargo, that'd be a tidy provocation for cn to demonstrate how easily the us fleet is shredded.
mircea_popescu: i do. because it's the same thing.
mircea_popescu: there isn't going to be a "us mil" if things fall apart. there wasn't a soviet one either.
mircea_popescu: so... nation building seems likely altogether.
trinque: maybe that passed too quietly; the whole middle of the country can shoot, including the women
mircea_popescu: and the alternative here, ie, "federation", as in weimar republic exacrtly is strictly non workable because endothermic. and there's no heat to be had. not no mo.
asciilifeform: they are not a 'state in a state'
asciilifeform: there ~are~, just as in every other part of the world, folx who can live on tree bark and make musket from old truck axle, etc.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform all nation building starts with killing the croat males and taking the females to the breeding pits.
asciilifeform: there is a not an autarkik wonderland sitting inside usa.
asciilifeform: the 'we are autarkik paradise in the making, as soon as we eject the parasitic rest-of-continent' is only slightly less laughable re tx than re ca.
mircea_popescu: i guarantee you eg mod6 would stand with me / bring rifle from home. he's not alone i nthe us. you are.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes i think you deeply misrepresent the rural folk.
mircea_popescu: trinque should be interesting, esp seeing how the canabis state laws thing made it quite precedented.
trinque: same for anyone whose family moved to new england in the last 50 years
ben_vulpes: the oathkeepers are a notorious joke, and nobody's going to stand up to a commanding officer to defend the good people of texas, no matter how little the ordered disliked texans the day before.
mircea_popescu: moreover california losing about 10mn pop would be great for the planet
ben_vulpes: trinque: recall "the most important part is being wrong together" from the manning piece?
trinque: I don't think most of the continent wants to shoost tejas
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: the mega-q imho is 'how many days can texaslandia survive without chinese plastic shipments restocking lolmarts'
ben_vulpes: trinque: that project could kick off quite the conflict if it threatens the value of paper gold significantly.
mircea_popescu: they're nobody on a stick.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform dude, the idiot kids over at github aren't either civilisation or america
asciilifeform: but usa, like any mega-empire, had a motivatory idiology for the rubes, and said ideology is sinking, because the necessary chumpatronic rewards are increasingly unavailable.
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 20:12 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform don't worry about it -- they had it two generations ago, and will get it again
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1607831 << well yes, it is a given that 'if everybody dies, the cockroaches/mongols/etc. will build own city, from 0'
trinque: I really don't give a fuck if the outer husk becomes a nation
ben_vulpes: ferment your trash, fix your neighbors toilets, pray you can get through the long walk in the desert with friends.
mircea_popescu: evidently not everyone in there is good time sally-ing it throughout.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes it's not clear. maybe it finds itself a nation at the bottom of it.