asciilifeform: so now if i need 24/7 access to the network, i gotta keep... 24 nodes
asciilifeform: say i can finally buy jurov's magical disk, where backup AND restore of 30GB (that's just the tx index) takes only 1 hr.
jurov: i'll use another node. or you're supposed to have a precious one and only one?
asciilifeform: and i'm still waiting for an answer, what is the node to do during backup and during restore of same ?
jurov: i said i do sync, then backup
jurov: but this will happen if, and only if, power is cut. if i sync once per day and backup the x, the backup will keep the x forever
asciilifeform: if jurov wants to run his node off ramdisk -- more power to him. but don't try to spin the resulting bitrot as 'hallucination'.
asciilifeform: understand, if my proggy writes an x to disk, at some point, and then later i read a y, and y != x, this IS CORRUPTION
asciilifeform: jurov: people flush write caches purely from hallucination ? maybe i don't need a disk at all then ?
asciilifeform: i suppose one way to rebuild the index using existing mainline trb would be to nuke the .bitcoin dir entirely, and refeed the node via 'eatblock'.
asciilifeform: trb does not have a knob for 'reindex and make sure blkxxxx matches the index'.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what did you do with the index if power failed (or node -- crashed) or whatever disruption ?
mircea_popescu: no but i mean, a 30gb ramdisk node to support the general public's mistaken notions and unwarranted pretensions... meh.
mircea_popescu: the paths are hardcoded to .bitcoin/ in stock satoshib, not the end of the world to change them
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i don't really do blockchain.info style "public support". i think i have the stuff somewhere, i'll have to dig for it. basically it's, blk* live on /sda ; blkindex.dat and friends live on /sdb which happens to be a ramdisk.
mircea_popescu: jurov shutdown of node can readily take > 15 minutes ; and can't even be initiated if the node is, eg, in db lock because block eating.
asciilifeform: jurov: the most sane variant of your proposal i can think of would be to run the entire tx index in memory. this is just barely practical on dulap, a massive box. and would mean multi-hour regeneration of the index on warmup. but is at least theoretically an improvement, in that it does not threaten to randomly lose bits.
mircea_popescu: there ~may~ be some optimizations that can be applied as-is to turn a jfs into something more appropriate for bitcoining than the "middle of the road" setting it ships with.
asciilifeform: what if block files are not in perfect sync with the backed-up index ?
asciilifeform: and how do you propose to guarantee detection of corruption in the tx indices ?
asciilifeform: (and, on a hotwallet box, if you have one -- the wallet.)
asciilifeform: and the indices.
asciilifeform: which includes the blocks.
jurov: "entire fs is subject to random rot if my app won't checkpoint its files by calling fsync all the time" is NOT true. where did you get such silly notion?
asciilifeform: if the entire fs is subject to random rot, as it would be without synced writes, then yes.
asciilifeform: link to the GB/sec disk plox ?
asciilifeform: ( does jurov volunteer to buy the double, triple, quadruple sets of disk, for all of my nodes, for these backups ? and what is the node to do while copying over a db ? say 'sorry , we're closed ' ? )
asciilifeform: nonsense like 'let's flush write cache once in a blue moon instead of normally', 'let's let the db corrupt and SURE I PROMISE WE CAN RECOVER' is what winblowz world is built from.
asciilifeform: spinning rust is the baseline.
asciilifeform: the thread today where mircea_popescu sees something with even the superficial silhouette of a cheap prbistic hack, and barf mightily, taught you nothing, jurov ?
jurov: you can stop the daemon every day, call sync and backup the db, and start it. max 24hrs of work lost.
asciilifeform: i'm not willingly building another phuctor-1.0, nothx.
asciilifeform: may as well run the entire node from ramdisk
asciilifeform: why would i want to turn off the journal ?
asciilifeform: the journal?
asciilifeform: if mining were not an intrinsically heathen activity, 'closed network' would solve the 'allcomers' problem. but as i currently understand, it'd simply ~move~ it.
asciilifeform: let's picture that whole deedbot l1 subscribes. the folx who run public/exposed node, so as to soak up blocks from heathen miners -- will be the ones to blackhole.
mircea_popescu: which is something the operator can decide for self.
mircea_popescu: if the node allows non-ssh-tunnel access.
mircea_popescu: well then.
mircea_popescu: we aren't actually following a purpose here, like "have a good bitcoin". we're merely proceeding from cause : db is broken and THEREFORE must be fixed. not BECAUSE it would bla bla ; but therefore.
a111: Logged on 2017-02-26 19:14 asciilifeform: the 'type 2' (non-verification) blackhole goes right back to the fundamental question of 'something to all comers', how much disk thrashing does a derp get to invoke simply by coming up with a not-yet-banned ip and a pseudonode.
a111: Logged on 2017-02-26 19:26 mircea_popescu: now then : a fix for the db would significantly improve a few classes of block verification delays ; and it would alleviate blackhole-like behaviour due to that, node's frozen checking a new block. there's at least 3 different dos vectors for other nodes, and a) the foregoing wouldn't help ; b) if it helped the enemy could easily upregulate the crapflood to compensate.
asciilifeform: the unfortunate bit that i keep coming back to in my head, is that http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-26#1618702 + http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-26#1618674 add up to a fundamental boojum, that is not a matter of simply 'make a faster db, buy a faster disk'
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/in-re-bitcoin-devs-are-idiots.htm << the actual event, march 11th
mircea_popescu: and then the usual usgtards were all over "oh, wow, you broke it and then you were "right on it and omg fixed it you're like power rangers" and so...
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, this is the one where the idiot miners "updated" and then the update failed and then usgavin gave them some of the bitcoin usg stole to compensate for the lost mining.
asciilifeform: was this the one where everybody used same buggy client nonsense ?
mircea_popescu: the one during the original split with the idiots who were there baptised as power rangers
asciilifeform: i have this notion, that there was a massive one some time before i tuned in.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what's the longest reorg you've personally observed, to date ?
mircea_popescu: one's like "you were in a coma for the past thirty years, here's what happened that you don't remember" ; the other's like "you had a hallucinatory episode, your history for the past x period is bad and you'll have to rewrite it".
mircea_popescu: there's a difference between extension and reorg, however.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-19 18:18 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: if martians produce longest chain with greatest difficulty i think by the rules of the game they own bitcoin
mircea_popescu: and there's actually some benefit for the network not even physically being capable to accept reorgs deeper than x.
mircea_popescu: yes, but blocks once written don't change. that's the non-rewritable part.
asciilifeform: bitcoin as we have it, is almost the antithesis of 'tape problem', the ultimate in random access, to the point that it makes disk cache ~useless, every tx can depend on literally any block from 0 to current
mircea_popescu: there is that. i'm just saying, you can have nonrewritable media, whatevs.
asciilifeform: general-purpose fs is likely to be extremely wasteful of space, because it carries the assumption of rewritability
mircea_popescu: but the reason it's mired in "first, experiment, profile" is because this is EXACTLY the sort of thing which should theoretically work out of the box on a modern nix, and ABSOLUTELY never does, at all. central lizard fodder.
mircea_popescu: but i have nfi whether this is even feasible, because this'd be step 2, after the "hey, what happens if you fill a disk with symlinks" EXPERIMENT returns some fucking results.
mircea_popescu: we will have 1mb blocks on the filesystem.
mircea_popescu: but your file = block (in the fs sense) = block (in bitcoin sense)
asciilifeform: symlink gets you a file containing desired block, but there is no way on any unix fs that i know of, to symlink to ~an offset inside a file~
mircea_popescu: there is that. perhaps a better indexing scheme could be had. hence the fucking symlinks
mircea_popescu: i thought that was the idea anyway
asciilifeform: i suspect fs-as-db will have same problem as the ancient shitdb
mircea_popescu: the other problem is that a good db fix is a very large project, because bitcoin is written insanely. and our fs db isn't moving, last i heard a month ago someone was going to try and profile an extx
mircea_popescu: now then : a fix for the db would significantly improve a few classes of block verification delays ; and it would alleviate blackhole-like behaviour due to that, node's frozen checking a new block. there's at least 3 different dos vectors for other nodes, and a) the foregoing wouldn't help ; b) if it helped the enemy could easily upregulate the crapflood to compensate.
asciilifeform: and i did not bother to vpatchify it.
asciilifeform: all i got is a stopwatch. the idea is, mod6 et al can run same stopwatch, on other boxes, with other types of disk
mircea_popescu: and i'll point out that the problem here isn't the work, or the thought, but the fucking packaging. you get overexcited and oversignal. it detracts from very valuable stuff.
asciilifeform: and i will point out, none of my findings so far contradict mircea_popescu's original 'it sits and waits for the disk.' only question was, where.
mircea_popescu: which can be briefly summarized as "alf : omg all blackhole is disk wait for db ; mp : thatr's a factor, there's more" repeated a dozen times.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-29 23:20 asciilifeform: type2 ( pete_dushenski's ) is the garden variety shitflood. which is sometimes solved by ip ban, but only in the case of 'shrapnel addressed to occupant', i.e. idiot prb nodes wildly spamming crapolade, and not in the 'bullet with your name on it' case, where somebody actually has a sybil constellation drowning your trb node in liquishit, with no SINGLE ip misbehaving in any way
mircea_popescu: and this isn't the first time we run into the problem of ... let's call them sloppy run "experiments". but the second, this week.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if you, using my patch or similar, determined that type1 (verification) blackhole consists of any substantial portion of something other than db wait -- i'm all ears
mircea_popescu: "i observed something on three blocks on one machine and here's the 100% conclusion ; tune in tomorrow for another one that a) fails to reference how i was wrong yesterday or address why and b) offer another 100% plus measures to be taken" is entirely undistinguishable.
mircea_popescu: the problem with prb is that it's run by a specific sort of retard.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: that was in re the verification blackhole (the most common type observed on dulap)
a111: Logged on 2017-02-24 22:24 asciilifeform: there are no substantial 'other large parts', detectably
asciilifeform: the 'type 2' (non-verification) blackhole goes right back to the fundamental question of 'something to all comers', how much disk thrashing does a derp get to invoke simply by coming up with a not-yet-banned ip and a pseudonode.
asciilifeform: incidentally, rationing by ip is a nonstarter, notice that the requests come from a multitude of 'nodes'.
asciilifeform: for as long as the enemy is able to keep up the 'gimme, gimme, gimme' flood of 'ahahaha, you're giving something to allcomers! well where's mine'
asciilifeform: this is the mega-prize, folx, the blackhole that can carry on unabated for hours, days, weeks.
asciilifeform: grep for 'received block' -- it does not appear again in this log. because we are blackholed OUTSIDE of the verification delays.
asciilifeform: finally caught this beast in the wild, in real time
asciilifeform: in VERY other noose,
asciilifeform: in very other lulz, http://www.metzdowd.com/pipermail/cryptography/2017-February/031615.html ( https://archive.is/jLUGT ) << 'Bruce Schneier has recently published an impassioned plea for a United States Federal Internet Security Agency, which would likely gain control of civilian cryptography, among many other munitions.'
asciilifeform: ^ ... hardcoded check for the published example !!
asciilifeform: ^ guess what the 'fix' was.
asciilifeform: 'Thursday's watershed attack on the widely used SHA1 hashing function has claimed its first casualty: the version control system used by the WebKit browser engine, which became completely corrupted after someone uploaded two proof-of-concept PDF files that have identical message digests.'
asciilifeform: in other lulz: https://arstechnica.com/security/2017/02/watershed-sha1-collision-just-broke-the-webkit-repository-others-may-follow
asciilifeform: [BTC-dev] (EXPERIMENTAL) Blackhole Read Timings, and the Verdict.
phf: since then fixed on btcbase
a111: Logged on 2016-12-03 01:35 phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-28#1549612 << so normal action is ^AACTION ... ^A, turns that when the line is too long it gets cut off (which is normal behavior) but in case of action none of client seem to do the regular split, meanwhile the irc server cutsoff terminating ^A, which breaks most parsers (including mine)
mircea_popescu: and in other holy shit 8chan, petslut.com! https://media.8ch.net/zoo/src/1414820994001.webm
mircea_popescu: also, apparently trump will not invite un security council to wh gagglemeets either. nor the correspondents dinner.
asciilifeform: 'Rules to receive the up-to-$10,000 award from Project Veritas - Project Veritas only offers awards for valuable video or other media types which was legally obtained. It is important for the submitter to follow all local, state and federal laws while obtaining video or other media for submission.' << snoar
mircea_popescu: also cnnleaks.com if anyone still somehow gives a shit about the fake media orgs.
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2017/walk-hard-the-dewey-cox-story/ << Trilema - Walk Hard: The Dewey Cox Story
deedbot: http://thewhet.net/2017/yankee-doodle-henry-part-iv/ << The Whet - Yankee Doodle Henry, Part IV
a111: Logged on 2017-02-25 23:39 mircea_popescu: you could, in theory.
asciilifeform: 'race to the bottom'
a111: Logged on 2017-02-25 23:22 mircea_popescu: basically nodes are the digital equivalent of women : men fuck them so the state can have babies. hurr durr, pill plox.
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2017/the-story-of-the-bulb-that-was/ << Trilema - The story of the bulb that was
mircea_popescu: you could, in theory.
asciilifeform: miners get one hell of a free ride, while node operators get such a thick shaft, that there are -- contrary to appearances - virtually none left.
mircea_popescu: basically nodes are the digital equivalent of women : men fuck them so the state can have babies. hurr durr, pill plox.
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron the analogy doesn't hold. currently the tool gives miners cake while nodes pay for the electricity. there's some people cheering on the sides, which i suppose makes the nodes all warm inside ?
mircea_popescu: anyway, to get back to the wallet : i would fucking love to see a mpfhf collision on 513 byte input.
asciilifeform: node -- bleeds and bleeds. and -- turns out -- operating proper nodes, ain't cheap, esp. with bitcoin's retarded non-O(1) verification, with the db idiocy
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform because the bitcoin network bandwith far exceeds the ACTUAL transaction needs of the civilised world.
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron that part wasn't much explained. all mining is technically wasted space for the node, not like they get money for it.
asciilifeform: but why there are 0fees mined ~today~, is beyond me
mircea_popescu: if it were the case you had to pay 2 bux to transact in 2011, bitcoin'd have never exiosted
asciilifeform: forced measure then.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes. to get the system off the ground. i explained this before, im pretty sure.
asciilifeform: ( can mircea_popescu or any other oldtimer even explain to me why 0fee ever existed?? )
mircea_popescu: this is not a factual descreiption. the transition from opportunity cost + 0 to opportunity cost + epsilon may matter, but so far neither record nor theory offer any convincing reason it would.
asciilifeform: the transition from zero-cost to positive epsilon -- matters
mircea_popescu: there isn't an administrative solution to the problem you perceive. if the "godfee" is low, it won't matter, and if it;s high it won't work.
mircea_popescu: looky, a common strategy of students that are not in possession of the material is to resolve those problems they think they know how.
asciilifeform: there ever being any, is a perversion
mircea_popescu: there's not that many empty blocks anyway
asciilifeform: punishments are beneficial, even if a beheading does not grow a corresponding new head on somebody else, or undo the crime which led to the sentence
asciilifeform: possibly it makes more sense to think of the hypothetical 'god fee' as a ~punishment~ of tx-ignoring miners, rather than a payment to relayers.
asciilifeform: might help if somebody did the chore, implemented mp's algo
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if 'a' can shit out tx, 'b' shoulders the cost, but unrelated 'c' is paid by a, you have socialistleak.
asciilifeform: the only practical way to 'pay all users' is by burning some coin.
asciilifeform: fees, in turn , do zilch to offset the cost of relating tx
trinque: danielpbarron: what's meant is cost to process the block he shat
trinque: the perverse incentive to do this ought to diminish over time as things are
asciilifeform: and he is even paid, the moterfucker, for this
asciilifeform: when miner makes empty block, he imposes a cost of cou and disk on every current and future user of the coin
asciilifeform: trinque: consider the base case : empty block
trinque: I'm more interested in the claim that null tx == junk tx
asciilifeform: we have, if you will, a kind of leak. which is what all socialisms is, a disjunction where 'i can eat, these others -- pay'
asciilifeform: right now when you make a tx, ~infinite unrelated third parties eat the cost.
asciilifeform: i suspect that you still gotta have the god-fee if you want 0socialism. like or not.
mircea_popescu: if you mean something like "block subsidy = 100 btc forever ; and each block must contain 1k txn ; and each txn must waste 0.1 btc" then you've done jack shit.
asciilifeform: the only practical way to do this, afaik, is a deflatory 'gods fee' per tx.
asciilifeform: and pay ~those on whom the cost is imposed~, rather than miner - an unrelated third party
asciilifeform: imho it is reasonable that the doer of this, pay for it
asciilifeform: in essence you are paying holders of coin for the trouble of keeping up with your movements of same
asciilifeform: btw i suspect that 'tx must include a micro libation to the gods' -- i.e. a leak -- is a necessary component of 'hard vacuum', 0socialism trbi as discussed earlier
asciilifeform: now, miner could generate them himself. but now let's also suppose that every tx must also leak an epsilon of coin to /dev/null.
asciilifeform: while we're doing trb-i : in addition to 'tx is 1024 bytes, and block is 1024 tx' , consider another item: 'block MUST contain 1024 valid tx'
asciilifeform: no numbertheoretical conjectures.
asciilifeform: pieces the orc found lying around, he used.
mircea_popescu: in any case i'm not a huge fan of the current address derivation scheme
asciilifeform: (i will leave the proof as exercise)
asciilifeform: so, for instance, you can prove that a k-of-k (must have ALL parts) shamir split, where you then take each share and encipher with different method -- will NEVER be weaker than the strongest cipher used.
asciilifeform: i suspect that the most that can be hoped for, is a large pile of items that are provable to add ~zero or more~ headache to the enemy, individually AND in the aggregate.
asciilifeform: so as i understand it, the pictured scheme in all cases makes enemy's work no easier than it is now.
asciilifeform: which is something he already has ~all of the time~ today
asciilifeform: let's rewind to the attack scenario tho. if enemy can group the tx, all he gets is the ability to refuse to mine it, in this case
mircea_popescu: (i dunno if you recall the net history, was at a point swedish torrent published openly mockful "takedowns" on its website)
mircea_popescu: this was the pretense of shared hosting. it didn't work irl.
asciilifeform: your tx-s still won't be groupable by enemy ~to each other~, only to ~all of his backed tx~
mircea_popescu: your design requires "always", not "when it's worth the money".
mircea_popescu: whenever your design calls for "and then they will go in front of the cannons, break the enemy's arms and beat them into a pulp with the broken arms" you're not asking for a merchant, but for a soldier.
a111: Logged on 2017-02-25 18:33 mircea_popescu: no because government does thart for them hurr.
mircea_popescu: yes but now you depend on a type of tx - the moving fallbacks.
asciilifeform: the bond can be, e.g., casks of rum, not necessarily btc.
a111: Logged on 2017-02-25 20:03 mircea_popescu: the pill to socialism is market. make things marketable, no further problems.
asciilifeform: the other thing is, 'fallback' is a marketable ( per http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-25#1618260 ) service. you can post a bond with somebody, and he gives you a fresh addr that you can use as fallback (if you drink it - he drinks up your bond, which is presumably more valuable than the addr amt.)
asciilifeform: 1 more upstack : it is possible to make a repudiatable fallback. ( how : you publish the privkey of the fallback addr, after, of course, you've successfully moved its contents to a new one. ) now it is not enough for enemy to find some d00d who knows the privkey to said fallback -- he also has to know ~who had it at time t~, because today ~everyone~ has it.
asciilifeform: 'Remember that most of these """journalists""" grew up either during Watergate or in its shadow, and so it's hardly surprising that they see the role of the press as some kind of unelected fourth branch of government whose job is to "take down" the President, if all else fails. Bernstein and Woodward are their gods.'
mircea_popescu: won't take 200 years the 2nd pass.
mircea_popescu: game suddenly becomes "can you volunteer necks to squeeze" ; empire already reduced the thriving system of euro trade to the sad nonsense of us banking.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'cosigner' not in the idiot 'multisig' sense, but in the banking sense. 'this unencrypted input GUARANTEES validity of this tx, but if blinded input turns out valid, it does not get balance substracted.'
asciilifeform: i will guess that the scheme described above, is the closest anyone will ever see to an actual hard-solution to the given problem.
asciilifeform: (unless you botch your tx-making and end up invoking the fallback)
asciilifeform: well you would use a virginal pile of coin as the cosigner
asciilifeform: ( to revisit upstack : a transaction could have any number of blinded inputs, ordered by priority, if the ~sum~ moved is public, and there is at least 1 nonblinded fallback 'cosigner' input carried along. )
mircea_popescu: anyway. nytimes/cnn are getting shut down, this year. there's no two ways about it at this point.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: last i heard, they set up a 'parallel whitehouse taiwan' to 'report' on.
asciilifeform: that way you can guarantee the validity of a blinded tx.
mircea_popescu: in other lulkz : cnn, nytimes and the rest of the libertard fake news sites denied white house access.
asciilifeform: which gets used if the primary input turns out to invalidate on unblind
asciilifeform: you could permit a tx to have an encrypted input, if it has a verifiable fallback input, rather like 'co-signer' in banking world
asciilifeform: it was obvious even to rms, the mushroom man
mircea_popescu: "oh but if they're strong they might not like us". ~dumbass women always and everywhere.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: that's what the 'trusted computing' / 'fritz chip' / etc. thing was about. and that it was about this, was obvious in 1995.
mircea_popescu: somehow the fundamental problem of making one's citizens weaker is never evident to these schmucks.
asciilifeform: Licensed Agents Of The Crown may, under some exceptional circumstances, add!111 but Only Terrorists could ever GCD.
a111: Logged on 2017-02-16 16:16 asciilifeform: 'Security expert and doomsayer Bruce Schneier – speaking by video owing to RSA Conference commitments in San Francisco and perhaps prescience with regard to seasonal travel challenges – predicted that the government is coming to handcuff coders. "We all had this special right to code the world as we saw fit," said Schneier. "My guess is we're going to lose that right, because it's too dangerous
mircea_popescu: (in case anyone wonders where the http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-16#1614597 scheiderism is going)
asciilifeform: more recently, the zerocoin (or was it zcash..?) thing
mircea_popescu: i meant the what's it called, alt-coin
asciilifeform: quite the opposite
mircea_popescu: and note that we';re not the onyl ones aware. enemy has placed a strategic urbit right on this space.
asciilifeform: 'trust allah, and tie the came'
mircea_popescu: much like i much prefer the "i took my pills" to the "i'll be careful" female declaration.
mircea_popescu: much like i much prefer the "i'll be careful
asciilifeform: aha, and if anyone else can think of something that belongs on the list -- i'm all ears
mircea_popescu: anyway, there might be others, i make no pretense to exhaustivity, hence why this is a very early phase of the design. we don't well know the space yet.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu no longer satisfied with the historic 'there's no taint damn you all to hell' solution to subj ?
asciilifeform: blinded output is trivial (many ways to unblind 1 or more blocks later); it is ~inputs~ that are the squared-circle.
asciilifeform: (i even suspect that it is possible to rigorously prove that these requirements are mathematically contradictory)
asciilifeform: now, a magical squaring of the 'anonymous tx' circle, where you lose ~nothing~, can prove a balance, verify a tx, and send entirely blinded, that satisfies everyone -- would technologically supplant classical algo. but there is no sign that such a thing is possible.
asciilifeform: they want to mine, see, on dial-up
asciilifeform: dunno, the asian 'we JUST WANT TO' folx, will whine, stand in the way however they can
mircea_popescu: ie, the interests of the participants are alligned in the way of the fix not in the way of the failure.
mircea_popescu: take the issue of "must have all blocks". there's a strong political incentive to supplant the technological failure.
asciilifeform: to pick it up and bolt to old piece of junk , rather than scrapping it entirely ?
asciilifeform: 'emulate the fix' means what, exactly ?
mircea_popescu: (in case it wasn't obvious, diff between political and technological is based on whether people have an incentive to emulate the fix anyway)
mircea_popescu: well, sha-1 went, any one of the two mechanisms involved in pubkey protection weakinging any would make for an emergency incentive.
asciilifeform: what other 'technological leaps' might qualify (other than successful blinded-payload )
mircea_popescu: absent a good or at least workable breakthrough in this vein, there's no strong technological incentive to move to trb-i
asciilifeform: ( to square this circle, appears to be an irresistible lure to 'tor' types, they keep coming up with 'zkp' schemes )
mircea_popescu: this is what i'm saying, anyway. " what we don't really have is the stuff that we really need, such as debottlers."
mircea_popescu: the problem with this is that it makes balance checks impossible.
mircea_popescu: (practically - you can only know txn y spent from address z only once the chain ends up with an address you own so you can decrypt it)
asciilifeform: they can still discriminate on input, neh
mircea_popescu: miners may not be able to choose txn on any other criteria than the fee ; nodes idem.
mircea_popescu: idiot example #2 : a trb which allows txn to be blocked by others than their issuers is ALSO a "way to do things" which doesn't in fact work, and therefore, exactly equivalent to the peter todd & prb idiots item
asciilifeform: the fact of todd's trick being a thing, does not impose, afaik, any costs on legit users of bitcoin
mircea_popescu: you keep fixating on a completely nonsensical interpretation of the comparison.
mircea_popescu: never mind that. the problem is that if your tx being included depends on you having a miner, you don't actually have a system. just like the 3bullshit isn't a system.
asciilifeform: idiots will always be able to smear shit on surfaces. the important thing is that the surface not be shit-permeable.
asciilifeform: wasn't that ^ thing simply an instance of 'i'ma put some coin on the floor for a miner to take' ?