asciilifeform: that's where all of the patches from which trb is made, live.
asciilifeform: see mod6's document, step '0x09) `mkdir patches` Gather trb vpatches from http://thebitcoin.foundation/v/patches in which ever manner suits you best.'
asciilifeform: i just said above: you put it in the .patches dir. and its seal, in your .seals
mircea_popescu: yes, stop squiriming and state for the record how do i add your experimental item to my build tree.
asciilifeform: afterwards you can add wires or whichever other experimental knobs, to the vtree, and rebuild.
asciilifeform: if you haven't yet tried mod6's buildtron, run it per the recipe literally first, it will not rebuild the deps every time, is reasonably clever
asciilifeform: the vpatch will go in your .patches, where everything from genesis onwards lives
mircea_popescu: alrighty, so in order to add the wires i'd put in there 0x21) http://btcbase.org/patches/asciilifeform_wires_rev1.txt > asciilifeform_wires_rev1.asc ?
mircea_popescu: but doesn't include the wires ?
asciilifeform: to which can apply the wires patch.
asciilifeform: btw it gets you the 'makefiles' vtree
asciilifeform: it is on the ml, and also visible in phf's thing, http://btcbase.org/patches/asciilifeform_wires_rev1
asciilifeform: or you mean the vpatch
mircea_popescu: so where's the trb+wires recipe ?
mircea_popescu: i intend to make a half dozen masters, slave them to each other, and then let people get pipes. l1terate people, obviously.
asciilifeform: and say if any of the steps dun make sense
asciilifeform: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2017-February/000252.html << start with this recipe
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: and yes, they are shipping as soon as crate of rng lids (due in today) is here.
asciilifeform: i'm familiar with the usage, but it was a cache miss, been eons since i saw someone referred to as 'tourist'
mircea_popescu: lel. are they shipping ?
asciilifeform: meanwhile in the test room, 'Serial correlation coefficient is 0.000000 (totally uncorrelated = 0.0).' << i had nfi this was possible
a111: Logged on 2017-03-13 01:30 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-13#1626296 << bwahgahah dude what. you're like... THE champion of making oneself look bad. it's livresque!
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-13#1626306 << on top of that i brought it up with a whisperer, i got back "oh yeah, the loper os guy! i emailed him some time ago, but didn't get any response. he probably thought i'm some kind of tourist."
mircea_popescu: no real way to make this work otherwise, sadly. unless of course one's willing to write ~a 3d simulator via html5
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes it occurs to me, btw, that wrt the problem of the space for the right sidebar hanbot actually has the perfect fucking solution. check out thewhet.net : there's those selectors uptop, can have n overlays this way.
mircea_popescu: how can be!!! THE GREATEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD must be more important than this!!11 waaah!
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo o wow don't tell me the "bitcoin crashes because usg postures re its own paper bitcoin-ersatz" thing failed to last the week
BingoBoingo: Apparently though their fixation on Trump leads them to forget you can't spell Trump without MP
ben_vulpes: oh i thought the failure of the don't-call-it-an-etf ripped the buy side clean out of the market though
mircea_popescu: phuctor is like teh eternal flame of the republic by now
asciilifeform: ( if the cards look somewhat familiar to readers, it is because they are physically standard 'vme', as also seen on certain sun and other large machines of the period )
asciilifeform: https://www.okqubit.net/symbolics << other photos from same, he has same memory, i/o, etc. as my unit.
a111: Logged on 2017-03-11 01:41 phf: asciilifeform: i don't think that's a wasted effort. i got in touch with zeptobars people again, and my current best option (since they said shipping to russia is maddness) is to travel moscows sometime in summer and hand deliver the chip. assuming that i have one, but i take it you're no longer interested since "snap4 source"
mircea_popescu: not usually after throwing an immense hissy fit, of dubious footing, which wasn't all that well received by teh very people in question! and then http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1625230
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu never thought he had $object in treasure chest and then discovered that not ?
a111: Logged on 2017-03-13 00:13 asciilifeform: !~later tell phf i dug out my crate of dead bolix boards, turns out i'm a chump, the pcb in question was a dead xl1200 ~i/o~ board. the only cpu on it is what looks like a z80! 0 smbx silicon.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-13#1626296 << bwahgahah dude what. you're like... THE champion of making oneself look bad. it's livresque!
jhvh1: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
jhvh1: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: !~later tell phf i dug out my crate of dead bolix boards, turns out i'm a chump, the pcb in question was a dead xl1200 ~i/o~ board. the only cpu on it is what looks like a z80! 0 smbx silicon.
mircea_popescu: strongest rebuff i know of the whole "ustards, psssh." angle.
mircea_popescu: yeah the find a flag by polaris story is pretty cool.
Framedragger: yes yes i understand, the cherry on top is that you make sure it's also *easy*.
asciilifeform: and distinguishes it from literally every other rng in existence .
Framedragger: asciilifeform: i understand, but i mean the *detail*, etc. - it's a nice manual with everything spelled out for the user
asciilifeform: Framedragger: these are just basic tests. and distinct from the proper audit described in earlier text
Framedragger: i really admire the amount of effort you took to carefully spell out ways of auditing the thing
asciilifeform: it shat orc glyphs into the ascii.
asciilifeform: ow fuck, html mutilation of the commands
asciilifeform: they're going out this week.
Framedragger patiently awaits merchandise from the master
mircea_popescu: anyway, in other lulz, what is the winklevoss / silbert / etc usgian dorks claim to fame now ?
mircea_popescu: fine illustration of birthday paradox. if names were 4 characters long and randomly distributed, there'd be 13k people with the same name
mircea_popescu: anyway, that's a kickass article so there is that.
asciilifeform: fake_space_whale: http://trilema.com/2016/how-to-participate-in-the-affairs-of-the-most-serene-republic
fake_space_whale: Is there an intro to trilema somewhere? I tried poking around the website and didn't find anything in my brief hunt.
Framedragger: i see what you mean - knowledge gained on the problem space, processes with dealing with problems and researching this domain developed, etc.
a111: Logged on 2017-03-11 14:39 mircea_popescu: you ever go to school ? what usually happens there's a chick there that's really good pre-puberty. then she starts bleeding, and she skips some classes / homeworks / attentionpaying. and then... she can never catch back up again. because interlocking.
mircea_popescu: it is a very false idea that what we say here "is in the open" and thereby "anyone could" etc. the prb devs can't, notwithstanding their own delusions of information and ability.
mircea_popescu: it's not just the direct effect ("generic enough to be re-usable"). much more important are the second order effects. (if you never went to school, you'd never even HAVE KNOWN what computers are, and consequently...) sort of thing.
Framedragger: probably worth thinking about it more, it'd be quite a spiffy thing indeed... that said, i have a more general concern with time-sunk-cost-to-trb. i do wonder how realistic it is to expect a trb-i in the years to come. if it is, then working on shitty legacy trb codebase is opportunity cost par excellence :( ; but, maybe testing harness could be generic enough to be easily re-usable.
a111: Logged on 2017-03-12 02:25 ben_vulpes: hey, if genesis is programmable, can generate chains for testing on the fly
asciilifeform: literally, 'material part', that is, of the immutable physical pieces of a problem.
mircea_popescu: their problem, however, is that they have nfi what they're doing, like that dog driving van on trilema.
mircea_popescu: same exact thing with the docker people -- if theior problem was that they wrote spr1ntf it'd be one thing
mircea_popescu: mp goes hunting. if mp goes hunting without a rifle and bullets, mp has fucked up the tanks part of engineering. if mp goes hunting in unknown martian planet, ends up eaten by hunter-eater, mp has fucked up river part of engineering. if mp goes hunting in zoo, shoots english bobby through overpenetration, mp has fucked up tanks part of engineering. if mp goes hunting in hunting place and hunts quarry but misses his shot, tech
asciilifeform: how does aiming the rifle differ, other than timewise, from designing a house that you then build with own hands
asciilifeform: can i use 'i didn't imagine that's what you mean' in the phrase table, or has mircea_popescu trademarked !
mircea_popescu: how this would work -- i've no idea, but technically i suppose it's there.
asciilifeform: presumably you could just as readily be involved in the felling of trees, mixing of cement, whatever else goes into building house.
asciilifeform: or so i read from 'im involved in the aiming'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu does not picture building the house with own hands
mircea_popescu: cuz im involved in the aiming neh
asciilifeform: how does aiming the rifle differ from drawing up a house, other than time parameter ?
asciilifeform: but not 'i draw up a house and expect that the floor will hold my 48 pianos' ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu would not structure phrase, e.g., 'when i aim the rifle and pull trigger i expect to hit the target' ?
mircea_popescu: i expect girl to shave. ie, tomorrow. i don't expect anything out of the floor.
mircea_popescu: if it will or if it won't, either way.
mircea_popescu: expectation is the equivalent of the continuous tense, you may have expectations out of your household. but no expectations are involved in fuckgoats. if the current is what it was specified it'll work and if not it will burn. what do you ~expect~ ?
asciilifeform: well in the particular example given, failure would have become apparent within a millisecond or so
asciilifeform: the expectation is that the capacity of the reg is > the current drain. of the floor in a house > the pianos. etc
mircea_popescu: there's no expectation involved.
asciilifeform: but not 'an expectation.' ? why the word substitution .
asciilifeform: at no point did asciilifeform make a physical 'pile' to determine the correct answer, it was arrived at on paper, with pen
asciilifeform: asciilifeform, drawing up FUCKGOATS, had to pick what voltage regulator to use, they come in wide variety of max & peak voltage and current ratings
asciilifeform: in what sense does 'pile' in this construction not equal to what other folx mean when they say 'plan' ?
mircea_popescu: plenty of examples scattered in the logs, but anyway.
mircea_popescu: for the docker guy ? make pile of tanks (what he's engineering for) ; river (what he's engineering against) ; metal (what he's engineering with).
asciilifeform: then mircea_popescu's 'serious engineer' includes docker rat
asciilifeform: at the design stage, there is an expectation, engineer knows in advance that if the thing buckles under any number of tanks that its surface might contain: stalin will shoot him
asciilifeform: shifting from a conceptual to a present 'this is the bridge you have, motherfuckers, drive' is dirty thinking.
mircea_popescu: there's no expectation involved whatever.
mircea_popescu: there aren't two. this one.
mircea_popescu: there's no expectation involved. for these tanks on this river out of this metal this is the bridge.
mircea_popescu: engineering is specifically the practice of eliminating expectations from human behaviour. it is the hopeless adventure.
a111: Logged on 2017-03-08 18:29 mircea_popescu: which is why all the impudent cuntlets want to be "in a creative career" aka hallucinated non-science. if irresponsible activity bereft of verification, ie, the antithesis of science, then their imposture has some space
asciilifeform: engineering without expectations is not detectably different from taking a shit and other excretory exertions
mircea_popescu: there aren't any expectations.
asciilifeform: per dijkstra's 'tests reveal presence of bugs, but never their absence'
mircea_popescu: well, i said it's not even a bad idea back then.
ben_vulpes: i hope the point is coming through, though, that 'CI' is utterly irrelevant in the face of the scope of systems choreography demanded and actual tests to be written
ben_vulpes: hey, if genesis is programmable, can generate chains for testing on the fly
mircea_popescu: to be fed to node to be tested from block 1 onwards, can set own difficulty then.
mircea_popescu: prolly but that's finnickyer. unless of course we bother to create 3rd item here, which would be a test chain.
mircea_popescu: at the very least try see what happens in the obvious cases, doublespend, bad block etc.
mircea_popescu: prolly should churn the chain as a test yeh. also a tx fuzzer would be great in general.
ben_vulpes: (well, not entirely baseless, i've put a modicum of thought into the topic and have been pricing a new box to boot)
mircea_popescu: overlap is not badf either.
ben_vulpes: so before even thinking about CI the testing strategy needs some actual thought, planning, and likely at least one patch. maybe more.
ben_vulpes: i went so far as to set up a solipsistic test net before bumping into the dumb-as-rocks "needs 2 nodes in order to mine" shit
mod6: ben_vulpes' is making some super cool v automated tests as well. there is a bit of overlap, but perhaps one day, his will become the defacto-standard tests. mine are a bit brittle to say the least.
mircea_popescu: also wtf are they on about, 3600 bitcoin mined a day, 10-15k traded a day (on fiatola outlets), 30-50k total.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes isn't all teh butthurt delicious though ? "we are very upset that apparently we don't matter ; also we won't mention mp's warning about all this because then it won't burn so much."
ben_vulpes: "because we've made it impractical to trade the underlying, nobody trades the underlying on our wholly-owned venues"
mircea_popescu: in other usg, http://68.media.tumblr.com/f807573edb2b0f7a29f5ff72d97f83c1/tumblr_nhoc41C1Bp1r539hzo1_1280.jpg
ben_vulpes: "exchanges that account for the bulk of trading are subject to little regulatory oversight and that existing know-your-customer or identity-verification measures are lax and can be easily bypassed"
mircea_popescu: and in "creative punishment for when she leaves the seat down" : http://68.media.tumblr.com/a3df8a95aba72f77c3dd84453d8e0201/tumblr_nit6o4adp71tgdz6ro1_400.gif
mircea_popescu: ahahahaha. so in further "everyone in sweden is just asking to be raped with a toilet plunger", nobel prize for literature -> bob dylan.
asciilifeform: (the 10,000 + overhead, rounded to nearest cylinder.)
asciilifeform: however ! looks like we ~do~ have a fixed-size element: the script.
asciilifeform: (there is no way to demonstrate the destruction of coin in any permanent way, so this tx will remain relevant for so long as bitcoin marches along)
asciilifeform: (when gavin et al made 'brainwallets' seeded with common dictionary words, by the megatonne)
asciilifeform: from the original spamwave
mircea_popescu: nofee either. miner skulldulgery.
asciilifeform: what's the statistical distribution of tx sizes, gotta wonder
asciilifeform: otherwise, as mircea_popescu said, nodice.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if you haven't guessed, i have an incomplete one here (currently calling in my head 'nqb', 'not quite bitcoin') and was trying to adapt it to the very simple task of eating the existing blocks and parsing out the tx.
asciilifeform: and any other size you want, below that.
asciilifeform: (and given that the scripts can be -- each -- individually anything up to 10000 -- you can have, theoretically, 1MB tx)
asciilifeform: where i is the number of inputs, and o -- of outputs.
asciilifeform: the equation i've come up with, is --assuming all scripts occupy their maximal size, 10000 bytes-- : 14+i*(10043)+(10011)*o
phf: i believe it's not explicitly bound (i combed for limits while writing lisp btc and found none for any of the struct combinations)
asciilifeform: ( for a certain purpose i need to calculate the max bytefootprint of a tx )
asciilifeform: ah in usa for some reason these called 'sybian', after one common brand
asciilifeform: on the pvc pipe legs
mircea_popescu: and in other nature loving, http://68.media.tumblr.com/ac1f2179359ad3d19124afec8b5d4f45/tumblr_o0j7n6hFvq1qc2yxpo1_1280.jpg
asciilifeform: if predecessor indexing is done by height, rather than hash
mircea_popescu: there's more than one qualification.
asciilifeform: if 'at least', the degenerate case wins, i can qualify a block as the successor to itself
mircea_popescu: that'd certainly be the right way to do it. it's not "must start with 5 0s, it's "must start with 5 bytes equal to prev block's"
asciilifeform: there is also the possibility of not doing the idiot growing-string-of-zeroes method for difficulty growth
mircea_popescu: the largest problem being that as difficulty increases, it becomes more and more feasible to simply seek a hash, in comparative terms. considering the disproportion of effect (one gives you a 1/2/2/2/2/2 of 50 btc, the other fucks up the toy entirely) it's a virtual certainty that eventually it will be economically reasonable to divert resources from mining to this hash colliding.
asciilifeform: but with different nodes having entirely different pictures of history, depending on which one they saw first
asciilifeform: you then can have forklets ~merge~, topologically, into what appears to be 1 chain
mircea_popescu: just have to put it in your story of the block
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the obvious interesting sequel to the q, is what would be the first symptom of a colliding pair of tx having been fired.
mircea_popescu: tis been in the logs a few tiems.
asciilifeform: ditto blocks, it is retarded for their hash to uniquely identify them for other calculations
mircea_popescu: which explains a lot of things includingthe miner/node bug
mircea_popescu: i don't think at the time he did this he had a very clear idea of the mempool / blockchain tx disjunction.
asciilifeform: (i.e. by hash of antecedent, rather than by where-it-is-in-blockchain)
asciilifeform: which is one of the reasons why shitoshi's nonpositional tx indexing is retarded
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the consequences would likely be dire, ie, irrecoverable/invisible variant blockchain
asciilifeform: phf: i suppose the correct term would be 'orphaned' patches
asciilifeform: and the pair -- broadcast
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i did not say that it is easy to find. but would like to know the consequences of one being found.
phf: and finally grapher now properly shows broken vpatches (i.e. ones that don't have all of the antecedents), for example http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=experimental all polarbeard ones, and my phf-shiva-swank are broken
asciilifeform: given that a tx is >256bits long, these pair necessarily exist.
phf: there's also a search function that lets you search through patchset, and it shows ~first appearance~ of particular string with corresponding file/vpatch
asciilifeform: nobody but mircea_popescu , hence the q
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the hilarious bit is that prb munged up the script system beyond recognition, BUT they kept this turd! merely moved it, http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/script/interpreter.cpp?v=0.10.0rc4#0256
mircea_popescu: people who magicnumber magicnumber, it's just how they go.
phf: ok, so experimental features on btcbase is that in memory presser now works. each patch has a "tree" link, that shows you a list of files (ones that are explicitly touched by the patch are marked as "modified"), and can look at each individual file
asciilifeform: http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/script.cpp?v=makefiles#0083 << holy fuq the magicnumberola never ever ends
Framedragger: i thought mouseovers were already there? if you mean timestamps over nicks
asciilifeform: seems like a shit idea tho. 'oops there isn't a trb running on dulap, because ooops i broke the build'
Framedragger: (continuous integration is the keyword)
Framedragger: asciilifeform: where thing builds software and runs it tests every time a change is made. i assume you know his and are therefore asking rhetorically tho
Framedragger: #trilema is mircea_popescu's constant disappointment, then
mircea_popescu: phf not a bad heuristic, except for the part where 30odd yo is kinda too old to work for a salary just like 20something yo is kinda too old to "work in pr" / http://trilema.com/2010/bani-pentru-piariste/
mircea_popescu: in other news : if your horse is undisciplined it's not the harness that needs improving. it's the horse.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes hey, at least she has the gap!
phf: that's another reason, why i don't for example, "hack my python with vim like a real hacker". give me the filthiest, most feature rich IDE, where i can just push spacebar to get half of my scaffolding, or whatever kids these days
a111: Logged on 2017-01-24 00:58 trinque: gonna DNS at all, might as well do it at the most-fed ministry
a111: Logged on 2016-12-28 18:31 asciilifeform: 'when choosing astrologer, hire the cheapest'
phf: in my experience places that have oracle tend to pay best rates, and paraphrasing http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-28#1592046 when choosing a zaibatsu to pledge allegiance, choose the one that pays the most
ben_vulpes: jurov: i suppose that i'm pretty lucky to have never worked under anyone who thought oracle worth including in the matrix
ben_vulpes: once the category of sv finger-trap is introduced, every option must demonstrate that it is /not that/.
jurov: "let's buy oracle, they are solid"
ben_vulpes: "the /fuck/ are you smoking?"
ben_vulpes: "hey boss, this looks like something written to suck devs into paying a consulting company to fix bugs in their own software, shall we introduce it as a dependency in our stack?"
ben_vulpes: time-cost of audit impossible to estimate at least, and if so and security is a concern, why bother.
jurov: don't forget the part about proper management of secrets on the master and general resilience of master against attacks from clients/minions
ben_vulpes: rots the mind
ben_vulpes: Framedragger: 'tisn't as though hftbro is exhaustive banger-on of every dumb thing, just the ones he's faced with
trinque: the fuck I don't
trinque: oh good then.
jurov: Framedragger: experimenting really helps. i tried saltstack lightly, and the communication between master and minions was incredibly unreliable
Framedragger: the buttsex jokes are for reading teabreaks
Framedragger: @all thanks to this chat i'll now make some urgent recommendations to startup i'm involved with. maybe it's not even gonna be fucked in the ass if moves decisively away. a bit ashamed i had $opinion on $thing-not-researched in the first place.
ben_vulpes: that's what they sell on, but it turns out that the insulation is measured in briefcases of hundies
jurov: glad I've never used docker. apparently they succeeded to reimplement oracle-corp-bezzle without backward compat, wd!
ben_vulpes: in other #stancelife/americana: http://68.media.tumblr.com/73d8d4a3bdd9733278acd4f0e9eeb5a0/tumblr_omnyfwNvCH1s2a69oo1_500.jpg
trinque: understand the only thing it exists is so some faggot at a web startup can make his makework job even more complicated so he can hide the fact (mostly from himself) ~that he produces nothing, and is nothing~
trinque: you're not speaking to people who have not done this ~for long periods of their adult life~
a111: 0 results for "https://thehftguy.com/2016/11/14/what-is-docker-and-when-to-use-it/ << on packaging and deployment practices, decent, probably seen by some folks here", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=https%3A%2F%2Fthehftguy.com%2F2016%2F11%2F14%2Fwhat-is-docker-and-when-to-use-it%2F%20%3C%3C%20on%20packaging%20and%20deployment%20practices%2C%20decent%2C%20probably%20seen%20by%20some%20folks%20here
Framedragger: !#s https://thehftguy.com/2016/11/14/what-is-docker-and-when-to-use-it/ << on packaging and deployment practices, decent, probably seen by some folks here
asciilifeform: those hoses, they want to connect.
trinque: proximity to cell phone causes some video card problem that turns off the display, have to switch VTs to get it back
asciilifeform: trinque: was this in the logs ?
ben_vulpes: oh don't even get me started on the ways in which the laptops don't behave deterministically
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: belt and suspenders, my comp worx 100% deterministically if i were to pull out the ups. disk controller battery.
asciilifeform: this is the elementary, 0th thing required of a comp.
ben_vulpes: what upon them possibly could
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: none of these liquishits 'work' per sane people definitions of working
ben_vulpes: which BY THE WAY
ben_vulpes: yeah the thing approximately works as an uptime monitor for impoverished ustards running 20 side projects on a single aws t1.micro
Framedragger: (turns out i *didn't* read that hft article (https://thehftguy.com/2016/11/01/docker-in-production-an-history-of-failure/) fuuuuck)
mircea_popescu: then let's create one!!1
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes otherwise it'd be a little lulzy, what, dude stuffs girl in van, rapes her, it's now his through the magic of fuckjuice ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform complicated, consider most of angloworld used wallpaper + wainscotting up until the us took over the civilisation.
trinque: "nothing can have permanent consequence, mother loves me"
ben_vulpes: "yes i let you use her but she's still mine no matter what show you two got up to in the bedroom"
asciilifeform: trinque: reminds me of the multiple legends that abound re the old sov habit of hanging carpets on walls. 'we're eastern orcs, we've been doing this since the mongols' -- nope. false. 'it's because of cold cement in hruschev-era flats' -- possible. 'it was so as not to hear the neighbours fuck' -- most likely.