davout: i don't particularly care, just wondering about "you can do it with a system otherwise identical to traditional bitcoin"
asciilifeform: and yes that means they have to live in a block, that you're reasonably sure won't be orphaned.
asciilifeform: ^ likewise it is unclear to me why to even have a merkle tree, and not hash the tx one after another. but that's a separate thread.
davout: don't see how, as far as i know you can't craft a tx without providing the tx of its parents
asciilifeform: with the difference being, that you can ONLY refer to a position in an existing block, and never to a tx hash.
asciilifeform: you can do it with a system otherwise identical to traditional bitcoin
asciilifeform: davout: it doesn't even require the cask scheme
asciilifeform: unfortunately , per grandfather's pistol , a tx ~in~ a block can spend the output of another, in same block; so verification of block tx is O(N^2) but the N is the count of tx in the block.
davout: no more spending before confirmed then
asciilifeform: astonishing how much retardation flows from this one little turd, the use of hashes (rather than positions) as tx pointers.
asciilifeform: it's a textbook mircea_popescuan tv-raft. 'can't fix the problem, That Would Be Wrong, have a raft made of your tv to float on;
asciilifeform: prune their ears, nose, arms, legs, cocks.
asciilifeform: motherfuckers.
asciilifeform: 'Fully-spent transactions are allowed to be duplicated in order not to hinder pruning at some point in the future. Not allowing any transaction to be duplicated would require evidence to be kept for each transaction ever made.'
asciilifeform: https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0030.mediawiki << found it earlier, prior to thread, but the lulzy bit is that their 'solution' is not a solution
mircea_popescu: it's actually how the whole "not match earlier nonspent txn" got added. the author is the death row inmate peter wuille.
asciilifeform: so a prb user can be fucked during sync, so long as the fuckblock fed to him isn't numbered 91842 or 91880 ...
asciilifeform: but 0 mention of any other pairs
mircea_popescu: unlike elderly parents, was giving benefit of teh theory.
davout: mircea_popescu: seems coinbase needs same address but also same extraNonce to compute to same hash, you probably overestimate the actual txid collision count
asciilifeform: btw this thread is unpleasantly reminiscent of , e.g., asciilifeform's conversations with his elderly parents , re thebezzle. 'look outside, sky not fallen, not moved a centimetre, you idiot'
asciilifeform: it is going on the conveyor mircea_popescu .
mircea_popescu: so of these tens of thousands of same-hash coinbases, which were hundreds if not thousands of times reorged, which is the parentless coinbase ?
asciilifeform: you just have a 'i can't believe it's not bitcoin' rather than bitcoin.
mircea_popescu: you're a fine gent, standing on a pile of "because so and so, the sky is falling." "well... i don't see it fallen" "show me why not!"
asciilifeform: so you end up with a parentless tx in the index.
mircea_popescu: now. a block with these gets reorged. ALSO happened 100s of times to date.
asciilifeform: see the links, it will become very clear
asciilifeform: as in the 2 linked examples on mimisbrunnr
mircea_popescu: okay. so basically you want a miner to mine twice to the same address. right ?
asciilifeform: whole thread was about these.
asciilifeform: the one that has input 0
asciilifeform: aha, the first tx in a block
asciilifeform: and are exempt thereby from 'doublespent because input was spent' rule
asciilifeform: (take the tx verbatim)
asciilifeform: but it isn't hard to do otherwise, just recycle old coinbase
mircea_popescu: now, the cost to mine a same-hash tx that is also meaningful other than garbage is not trivial.
asciilifeform: (will not accept a block where they are spent)
asciilifeform: it would instead manifest as one or more chains of tx that a trb node -- a particular one, that saw the particular magic orphan -- mysteriously does not want to spend the outputs of.
asciilifeform: the imho most tickling part re the hypothesis, is that the symptom would not necessarily leave any permanent sign in the mainchain blockchain
mircea_popescu: in other news, http://static.tumblr.com/6939a00d5cc18ed5e74eba13001fc4d8/af3igoa/IGIo4hva2/tumblr_static_tumblr_static_652rvgdy65ssk0ocogg0w8c0s_focused_v3.gif
mircea_popescu: altogether not a bad idea to make a set of test chains as per the tsting discussion last week. this can surely be both part of it and the incentive to do it.
asciilifeform: ( would have to fudge the difficulty on the toy planet, or alternatively remove the time parameter from http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/main.cpp?v=makefiles#0977 , but otherwise doable )
asciilifeform: is likely the easiest demo.
mircea_popescu: you're welcome to do it any of the three ways, but rly nao.
mircea_popescu: not that i'm proposing the insanity is sane.
mircea_popescu: you got a good point, but it's just part of the story as-is.
mircea_popescu: well, you can either try to replicate this, if you wish, irl, or else show a case in blockchain where it happened, after 2011, or else simmer down and keep digging.
mircea_popescu: the ~exact~ ~specific~ ~pinpoint-for-me-in-lxr-or-bust~ mechanism of this is not specified.
mircea_popescu: then, block 3 is orphaned. this wipes any mention of C1/C2's hash from index.
asciilifeform: ignoring the maturity rule, but sure
mircea_popescu: later on the output of T1 is spent by T2 in block 2
mircea_popescu: let's see the practical consequence where you simmer the fuck down and stop oversignalling by a factor of fifty trillion ONCE!!! in your life! one ounce work ten bushels sky is falling good god.
asciilifeform: now for the practical consequence. what this means, as far as i can tell, is that there can exist -- may already exist -- chains of tx in trb, that cannot be walked back to a coinbase.
asciilifeform: the result is an arbitrarily long chain of beheaded tx
asciilifeform: there are no doublespends involved, just a massive bomb
mircea_popescu: and then he wants to re-introduce original. but he can't. because doublespent.
mircea_popescu: from the index.
asciilifeform: 50* was spent, and per trb rules, garbagecollected from the index
asciilifeform: the 0s represent 'future'
mircea_popescu: he'd be doing this by himself as block 60 (really, why all the 0s ? you need them for something ?) which doublespends block 50 won't be accepted by eg me.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: revisiting the boojum: block 500,000 has coinbase B. it was spent, many cities are built on the outputs, time passes, world forgets. yeas later, dr. evil mines a block ~600,000~ , now again having B. ( he does not need to know any keys for this, can just copy the tx. ) then he sets his minetron to start again from 599,999. succeeds in orphaning block 600,000 . reorg fires. B now gets removed from the index db ! and a
asciilifeform: another tickle : what'll happen if someone were to mine a block that 1) has a coinbase equal to one of these magical coinbases + 2 ) spends same ?
asciilifeform: unless it was in ye olde otc or whatever folx inhabited in the olden dayz.
asciilifeform: the heathens think it to be 50 btc : https://blockchain.info/address/16va6NxJrMGe5d2LP6wUzuVnzBBoKQZKom
asciilifeform: is there even a consistent way to calculate it ?
asciilifeform: what's the actual balance of 16va6NxJrMGe5d2LP6wUzuVnzBBoKQZKom anyway
asciilifeform: they're both unspent !
asciilifeform: say i walk in with a tx that spends the output of d5d27987d2a3dfc724e359870c6644b40e497bdc0589a033220fe15429d88599
asciilifeform: even the comment on ln 756-7 is nonsensical, 'This is only possible if this transaction was completely spent, so erasing it would be a no-op anway.' in what universe is erasing the ancestor of a valid tx a 'no-op' ?
asciilifeform: which it where it gets interesting, because the 'can fail' doesn't seem to exist in the code:
asciilifeform: they get queued for removal ;
mircea_popescu: does it regenerate the index on reorg firing ?
asciilifeform: i read the code, again and again, and it would seem like 968-984 is the whole of the crutch. and in classic nsa style, the comment misdirects the reader to think that the 'bug' was 'fixed'.
mircea_popescu: i suspect there's some crutch code somewhere.
asciilifeform: now coinbase of 500,000 is missing from the index, and is unspendable.
asciilifeform: B is removed from the tx index.
asciilifeform: block 500,000 has coinbase B; 500,001 - coinbase C, 500,002 : B again. now 500,001 and 500,002 end up orphaned. the reorg fires.
mircea_popescu: the one whose parent coinbase you discuss.
asciilifeform: they appear now to have dropped from mars.
asciilifeform: because their parent coinbase is no longer in tx index
mircea_popescu: do you mean, "it removes transaction entirely but it doesn't nor could correcty undo the damage to the ball of yarn" ?
mircea_popescu: if it's not in the new chain you mean ?
asciilifeform: a reorg will remove the overwritten tx entirely
mircea_popescu: in other news, camembert, lomo horneado + boiled corn on the cobb, primo breakfast a++ would breakfast again
asciilifeform: sooo per my reckoning, you can have sane-trb-indexer, but now every tx gotta have a field for 'was replaced?' -- and if bit is set, indexer goes and looks at the collision table, the previous lookup now 'didn't count'
asciilifeform: now you have mutilated the history. entirely legally.
asciilifeform: also it is not clear to me that trb ever... worked, in the customary sense of the word. what, for instance, happens if you actually carry out the -- entirely legal per all known btctrons -- replacement of a ~spent~ coinbase tx ?
asciilifeform: 'see 8th bit for whether you have ONE MOAR BYTE of crud coming your way' does not.
asciilifeform: these, work
mircea_popescu: it's 64 bits until year 13500 and 128 bits from there on until year 1mn etc
asciilifeform: there is no such thing as an O(1) undefined-size index.
asciilifeform: the neat thing being, that on Collision Day, you can retro-stretch all of the previous hashes
asciilifeform: it, and keccak, and probably other schemes
mircea_popescu points out wholly disinterestedly at this point that the eponymous mpfhf allows for variable length output, and could be made to do say log (blockheight) bits!
asciilifeform: keys motherfucking unique, ruat caelum.
asciilifeform: there are not 256bits of seconds left of sun , even.
mircea_popescu: and it's the fuck lower than 32bits.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that means there's a cap on total txn bitcoin will ever process
mircea_popescu: other than the hope "they won't be many" (recall the naive oh, if we need we just add more digits after decimal ? hurr. you fucking don't.)
asciilifeform: there's 1 way -- if you send in an anything that collides with a previous ANYTHING, you are told to fuck off.
mircea_popescu: there's no way to avoid collisions.
asciilifeform: the way i read ln. 968, miners TODAY are apparently more than welcome to create a duplicate coinbase, so long as it is a dupe of a ~spent~ coinbase.
asciilifeform: i mean, the algos.
mircea_popescu: and what is meant when people such as me say bitcoin's a pos and what it was meant when i told the power ranger tards to fix it or get killed years ago
asciilifeform: (making the id entirely worthless, and dragging in the worst of both worlds, you now ALSO have to remember the position. why not ONLY store the position ?!)
asciilifeform: the 'unless spent' is riotously idiotic, it means that a txid does NOT, even today, guarantee to uniquely identify a tx.
asciilifeform: http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/main.cpp?v=makefiles#0968 << the routine in question.
asciilifeform: if you reject incoming tx (in a block , in particular) that overwrites old 'spent' one, you have broken the pistol.
asciilifeform: so if you make a 'tx that has same hash as ANY known tx to date which != this tx' you have broken the pistol, forked from the old semantics.
asciilifeform: and the 'unless those are already completely spent' thing substantially complicates, if not prevents, a sane indexing scheme
asciilifeform: but it only applies the rule after certain timestamp of block
asciilifeform: this is not an original discovery, there's a magic case for it in trb
mircea_popescu: they in principle became impossible at some point once people figured out this hole.
mircea_popescu: when's the oldest you found ?
mircea_popescu: which don't discuss "worry, for or against". they discuss "worry, lulz" and other things.
asciilifeform: this is not unlike to say that 'if the only response tumour cell encounters in the organism is an army of killer tcells, there can be no cancer.' well yes.
mircea_popescu: the path from empire to republic traverses the river of worry, and the bridge is made of qntra and qntra-likes.
mircea_popescu: which is how that transition worked, and how all other transitions worked.
mircea_popescu: and no, no physical dissassembly required. the moment the ~only response "worried woman" encounters in household is one thin layer of mockery backed by an endless layer of physical punishment, the su not only goes away but actually becomes impossible.
mircea_popescu: the ~only point of "organised female resistance" is that it de facto constitutes a lulzcow herd. they can be milked for lulz. that is the only utility, from obama to the last famished "evangelist" out there.
asciilifeform: the folx who had 0 to do with disassembling su
asciilifeform: has to do with the observation re kitchen intellectuals
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: there was a name for this, 'kitchen intellectuals'
mircea_popescu: again : the loser intellectual class of the 1990s su, those people who would have had the means if only they had the sense, those people who were in fact smarter, and in fact more cultivated, and in all relevant aspects save one more capable than the aparatchicks who stole the show
mircea_popescu: also not the main thrust here.
asciilifeform: but mircea_popescu is stingy re the concretes, and asciilifeform likes concretes.
mircea_popescu: and in the same exact manner, "cynical" and "woke" "independent minds".
mircea_popescu: tell you waht : each one of the loser intellectual class, the people whose daughters ended up powering the first wave of fat-based cuntindustrialization (where you hydrolize people to get economy going, you know) were ALL avid readers of the pravda
mircea_popescu: now, if one ~already understood~ the mechanics, then one could have a lot of fun, and in the process also produce a lot of interesting commentary by reviewing ther pravda.
asciilifeform: if mircea_popescu had said 'you won't learn the mechanics of su collapse by reading pravda or decrees of politburo' i would grudgingly agree
mircea_popescu: understand how consequences work : you can't at the same time "oh, nobody even told be item from my field of interest" and "oh i see from anthill". either you do or you don't, and broadly speaking i guess you don't.
asciilifeform: cabs. and at one point worked in dire shitholes of various descriptions. but what point is there describing any of it, mircea_popescu will still insist that 'none of it describes the Actual anthill, you gotta have a private intel agency of 10,001 cutthroat sluts to know Reality!11'
mircea_popescu: so how are you participating in the anthill ? gimme something. you... go on the subway and talk to people ? use cabs, talk to the drivers ? work in an office ? take the sluts to the campus and have them make out with random girls ? what, exactly, is the light illuminating this anthill ?
asciilifeform: i dun recall ever claiming to pick up anything whatsoever in the street..
mircea_popescu: all you got is the view FROM INSIDE YOUR HEAD. because if i push you re anthill it'll immediately become obvious the last time you picked up a girl i nthe street was never, and similarily for any other quanta of interaction.
asciilifeform: all i got is the view from inside the anthill. where mr.t's buttons are in fact not connected to anything, because apparently even the lowliest judicial bureaucrat can 'suspend' all of his decrees for whatever fictional 'reasons'.
mircea_popescu: in any case, the republican narrative is "bitcoin classic failed", not "let's talk about the latest reboot of the idiot franchise". an' thats what qntra does.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i am by now convinced that once so-called judge corpses start floating on the east river your retort will be "so what, everyone dies eventuallyt and everything ends up in a river eventually". which is fine and great for you, but makes for HORRIBLE qntra. because it's so indescribably fucking stupid, and because it's so indescribably fucking stupid in the exact manner that produced usg.
mircea_popescu: we're not interested in pushing the "oh, here's a replacement cockroach". rather, insistent footage of cockroach corpses./
mircea_popescu: the correct move is chaser piece about the situation of an unemployable 40something ex-da who can't find work now ; rather than indulging reboot of idle posturing
asciilifeform: afaik every potus fires the previous one's prosecutors
asciilifeform: mr.t did put himself in the buggery pose when he proclaimed intent to 'comply with judicial orders' or how was it.
asciilifeform: in yet-other but not wholly unrelated noose, http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/6podN/?raw=true >> mr.t's revised immigration order canceled by judge in... hawaii.
asciilifeform: 'World Jewish Congress CEO Robert Singer thanked Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos for his action on Thursday . “We are also gratified to note Amazon removed numerous other Holocaust-denying items from its website. ...'
asciilifeform: on’s sale of these offensive materials.'
asciilifeform: in other noose : https://archive.is/rJh3G >> march 14: 'Amazon has removed three books that deny the Holocaust ... Robert Rozett, a senior official at Yad Vashem, Israel’s official memorial to Holocaust victims, wrote to Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos last month calling for immediate action specifically regarding the three books. Rozett calls the move a “positive first step” which shows Amazon listens to Jewish groups that protest Amaz
BingoBoingo: Butt Trust In The Market
pete_dushenski: in geert wilders news, his pvv (freedom) party is looking like it'll grab the second most seats in the 150-seat dutch parliament with... 19. crazy fractured system. italy / israel level. then again, these figures are "according to exit polls" which are worth as much as hillary "looking past the election". should be a lively night if all the dutch nate silvers get similarly thumped.
pete_dushenski: at this point, it's hard to tell if the dems know that they're muslims or if they still think "acting doesn't count"
ben_vulpes: methinks most of the crying was cut out
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: that's a new one. not too long either if i skip translating the 102 comments
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: sorta like the block!111
mircea_popescu is taking a grim sort of pleasure in the observation that it takes about as long to read as it took to write.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 0.067 sec. btw is the avg, 0.123 was fluke.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes had you read the original ?
mircea_popescu: which incidentally - has been read TODAY by more people than read ALL of marcel proust's works since the making of gutenberg.org
ben_vulpes: these ebon pillars don't like that.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes i dunno bout you, but erry time i went after hours to nominally girls only student whore warehouse facilities i was there to "visit my cousin" and when crashing a party it'd be a case of "you've got my sister in there, now do i have to get a cop."
ben_vulpes: i know in point of fact that i've demonstrated how candidates for voice are to introduce themselves before.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: well that's merely the mechanical process, no tx index queries, no scriptolade use.
ben_vulpes: reject the wot, even humorously, at your own risk.
asciilifeform: it's not even like memory will leak if you forget to free() them.
mircea_popescu: the allotment of identity to the peons is a largely irrelevant if entirely complex business.
asciilifeform: no indication that he is anything other than a subscriber
asciilifeform: in the generic.
ben_vulpes: has the stones to "make a vpn" whatever that means to the average bu tard, but not to make a key and get in the wot
BU_lulz: not trying to get deep into the WOT or anything
BU_lulz: meh, just some dude who knows one of the regulars here through a friend
trinque: the printed money can dribble from whichever tentacle, eh?
BU_lulz: i've been tempted to try to make a penny off the pumps, but the principled side of me has kept me from stooping to that level of derp
BU_lulz: like I have no faith in ethereum, dash, etc but I can't help but feel printed money is being thrown at them
BU_lulz: u guys think the usg is pumping alt coins lately?
BU_lulz: each statement he makes outcringes the last
asciilifeform: was this the one that downloaded blacklist from mike hearn's tor onion ? or was that a previous idiocy
mircea_popescu: "Bitcoin Unlimited is a full Bitcoin client and is an alternative to the original Bitcoin Core client. It offers high levels of security, privacy, and stability." quoth the roger ver mfa.
BU_lulz: really just wanted to listen to what the trilema folks were talking about
BU_lulz: not to say there aren't segwit shillz
BU_lulz: just getting lots of lulz from the BU community lately
mircea_popescu: a right there is that.
mircea_popescu: incidentally, am i the only one wondering why the everloving fuck the ustards keep pretending sex is something dubious and hard to distinguish etc, when every single fucking cell of the organism carries, very strictly, the code on it ? it's either xx or xy, stop bitching and whining, there's NO ambiguity. none.
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron that theory suffers from not having ever eaten corn kernels neh ?
mircea_popescu: better hope people use proper languages rather than whatever barbar.jpg to speak.
mircea_popescu: what if one pops his own zits and eats the proceeds ?
mircea_popescu: so he can eat the cocks ?
jhvh1: trinque: [KJV] Mark 7:15 :: There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
mircea_popescu: so then it's not even a bad strategy for the 16yo brighter-than-average highschool girl, http://trilema.com/2013/whore-strat/
jhvh1: danielpbarron: [KJV] Isaiah 64:6 :: But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
mircea_popescu: but the point remains, notwithstanding how poorly it worked for that particular idiot, that there's a lot worse fates than being a 30something successful repented whore.
mircea_popescu: $20 at the sperm bank.
mircea_popescu: yes, but the discussion was who's better off how / interests etc.
jhvh1: danielpbarron: [KJV] Mark 10:25 :: It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
mircea_popescu: pretty much. she was honest ~with you~. dun expect she does this generally, was the subtext.
mircea_popescu: so identify one, run into her "accidentally" in town, ask her out and then ask her what she does for a living.
mircea_popescu: how much is the business hotel only call girl in connecticut ? 1k a night by now ? 2 ?
mircea_popescu: but not so far off from how the conversation goes with me ; after all i taught most of them har har.
mircea_popescu: this is generally how the urban poor end up in jail.
mircea_popescu: might also be because they're utterly unsophisticated.
mircea_popescu: well i how can it be plainly observed when you didn't observe the other deeds any ; nor did the observation get recorded.
mircea_popescu: (note that she also does repent, in the same approximate manner.)
mircea_popescu: i will excuse carol of "cool it, carol" fame with the exact same rod.
mircea_popescu: ah, mind that the eventual fate of all these is of no interest in this discussion. we were just going on about the "should be" and "shouldn't be". if mary doesn't have to publicly admit she was a whore, and if nobody has to point out to her, and if she may vaguely repent without mentioning, or maybe not, and it makes no difference, then why not random hussy aged 17 in 2017.
jhvh1: danielpbarron: [KJV] Matthew 7:21 :: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
mircea_popescu: yes, but would you propose "she sucked the judges off, all of them" as a fine defense in your above case for whoredom ?
mircea_popescu: you know, exactly in the manner of tolerating whorishness generally.
mircea_popescu: ah yes. but i'd rather discuss the whore he wilfully or accidentally omitted to address as such.
trinque: doesn't the guy or one of his progeny also say "wages of sin is death"
trinque: anyhow the whole thing's inconsistent so anybody can pluck anything
trinque: something something "he who is blameless cast the first stone"
ben_vulpes: trinque: could enforce uniqueness in the second column