erlehmann: asciilifeform i see the genius of the naming now, sane people can respond to such things with “i'd rather FUCKGOATS” and be right 100% of the time
asciilifeform: erlehmann: there's 3 or 4 faux phuctors by now -- and that's just the ones i turned up
erlehmann: … and on the second invocation it returns false. seems like a classic GET with side effects.
erlehmann: the stupidity looks fractal to me
erlehmann: that seems like the more hilarious part of it
erlehmann: > Users of the Random Sanity Project can take those random numbers – from 16 to 64 bytes – and input them into the service, which will return a 'true' if the bytes look random, or a 'false' if the numbers don't.
mircea_popescu: he tried and therefore nobody should piss in his drooly mouth.
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-03#1665775 << you're registered. I deleted the other registrations. phf's rate seems to have been lost in the mess, so...
BingoBoingo: In other news, vegetarian hippies oppose beef ban in India because, "muh muslims!
mircea_popescu: they made some sort of joint declaration w/e
BingoBoingo: This is an actual violation of the Logan Act of 1799
mircea_popescu: and in other unexpected developments : the eu reacted to trump backing out5 of paris accord by pretending the us is not run by washington, and will just work directly to "business leaders" and state governors instead.
BingoBoingo: And notice what on the more "inclusive" https://www.reddit.com/r/gonewild/ with no gender specified
BingoBoingo: It was a short one. As much as Nebraska barely exists now, it's existence was more barely in the time leading up to Herr Lincoln's war of aggression
mircea_popescu: "The bill introduced in [Omaha City] Council, for the abolition of slavery in this Territory, was called up yesterday, and its further consideration postponed for two weeks. A strong effort will be made among the Republicans to secure its passage; we think, however, it will fail. The farce certainly cannot be enacted if the Democrats do their duty." << 1859.
BingoBoingo: Seriously "Your name is Toby, you will be whipped until you acknowledge your name is toby and you work the field"
BingoBoingo: The cancerous faggot and the Senator both have some aggro incoming, but Senator is drawing the brunt of it for not "seeing something, saying something"
BingoBoingo: From the cancerous faggot department: "Maher seemed encouraged by the answer and said that he should get to Nebraska more. Sasse then replied that the comedian was welcome to go: Wed love to have you work in the fields with us. Maher seemed surprised by Sasses invitation and then jokingly replied, Work in the fields? Senator, Im a house nigger."
mircea_popescu: give the guy a chance to get around to it.
erlehmann: so was that all? if not, what could i do more? the instructions seem to end here http://trilema.com/2016/how-to-participate-in-the-affairs-of-the-most-serene-republic/#footnote_2_68942
mircea_popescu: erlehmann do a final !!register <url> with the actual pubkey of the key you want to use, no backsies, in here so it gets recorded and hopefully gets done today.
erlehmann: seems i need to learn more about deedbot and then try again instead of wasting others time
mircea_popescu: what's with the add approach ?
mircea_popescu: basically you registered multiple keys, confirmed none, timedout the dood trying to help you.
erlehmann: either extreme lag or me misunderstanding how deedbot works
mircea_popescu: "you know that pamela andersen, that's been like on every single mag cover and took everyone up the ass ? well, i'm just like her, except i live in a closet and never did anything like that!" "yeah, i can totally see the resemblance".
mircea_popescu: traditional porn / society beats this stupid out of whores physically, but there's no substitute for online.
mircea_popescu: basically the fundamental problem is that precious cuntlets want their precious cuntlet to be worth money through it not being used ; whereas the only way it could ever be worth anything would be through intensive usage.
shinohai: Well I was inspired by http://trilema.com/2015/a-proper-social-site-for-the-bdsm-community/ .... but it seems minds have been poisoned by traditional "social media", etc to the point no one sees the value in this.
mircea_popescu: eh, there's ~no future to it. agricultural work.
shinohai: I may be wrong, but I think the future of this whole camho thing is making some sort of business model that is like, say Qntra, where the ladies get shares based on content.
shinohai: I forgot I did meet another semi-hot Colombian chick a fortnight ago that I wanted to !~tits
shinohai: I'm trying to come up with new ideas. twitter is simply full of fat chicks, etc that pay me to tweet their bullshit until they realize no one fucking cares anyway.
BingoBoingo: Oh, lawdy the moar things change!
shinohai: Yeah, not worth the paper printed on.
shinohai: Yup. She can piss on the AJC on cue.
shinohai kicked girl out of house when she said "Why do you read that boring log every day, can't you just facebook like the rest of us"
mircea_popescu: in other wolisome, 6am log is like 1k lines god help us.
BingoBoingo: I'm just guessing they are camhos
shinohai: Where did we get camhos from BingoBoingo .... I'm on mobile so missing the log
BingoBoingo: <shinohai> You write said submission, `aspell -c submission`, then clearsign the result with your gpg key. << You forgot "Proofread for its vs. it's, because aspell doesn't know"
shinohai: Then, encrypt to BingoBoingo 's public key
shinohai: You write said submission, `aspell -c submission`, then clearsign the result with your gpg key.
shinohai recalls the time (I think it was BingoBoingo and TradeFortress) made Candi's husband put sharpie in pooper ....
BingoBoingo: sina: Well there's brokerage or simple butt storage
BingoBoingo: shinohai: The erlehmann and sina camhos may need coaching on how to submit to qntra
mircea_popescu: oh ? what'd they say ?
mircea_popescu: there's a candy whore in lisp ; deedbot is iirc written in rdbms.
BingoBoingo: sina: Sure, plenty once you catch up on these past 3 years of log
mircea_popescu: im not even sure why the fuck deedbot would accept such a thing.
mircea_popescu: and also apparently works ? so wtf is the problem ?
mircea_popescu: sina do the !!v thing in public so i can see wtf it's sending you ?
sina: how the fuck is it possible mircea_popescu can encrypt a msg against that key and I can successfully Hurr durr, but the OTP won't?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-03#1665140 << or in other words, that you don't actually have linux.
BingoBoingo: So far answer to that question is hand signals to other drivers
mircea_popescu: so they i don't get it, why cant' you !!v ?
sina: and I registered "sina" against the same key thinking it was a different key
sina: ok, so facts are, my fucking backup system did in fact fucking work, and the herbi key was in my keyring uncorrupted this whole time
mircea_popescu: theeeen you shouldn't have a problem.
mircea_popescu: check out the totally lulzy string it spit out
sina: phf: I used to use this key to identify with assbot all the time :(
sina: mircea_popescu: I can do a detached signature and verify the sig, yes
mircea_popescu: sina have you verified the signature ?
sina: I can run 'gpg --local-user 7A6DC051 --sign input', it asks me for a password, I copy/paste the pw from my keepassx, it signs the fucking document
sina: BingoBoingo: yeah I am 100% there
sina: mod6: the key was generated on, I think ubuntu 12 or 14.04 with a version of gpg I can't remember
sina: and this is why I thought I didn't have the herbi key backed up because I was getting the same error
sina: I can even export the secret key with 'pg --export-secret-keys --armor 7A6DC051'
mircea_popescu: probably by not signing with the pubkey you're supposed to decrypt with, but a different one.
sina: anyway I am also coming to terms with the apparent fact that I can't fucking GPG to save my life
BingoBoingo: Oh, fuck off. Now I'm starting to wonder who the drunk was in 2014
sina: BingoBoingo: that rating from you was the literal core of my being and now it is crumbling away
sina: what the fuck have I done wrong here. "gpg --export --armor sina.sa@gmail.com" ==> http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/STTlS/?raw=true ...registered with that. got an OTP URL from above. put it into a file called 'input', run 'gpg --decrypt input' get that error above
sina: what the fucking fuck is going on
a111: Logged on 2017-06-03 02:18 asciilifeform: was from the (public) beginning 'we're like bitcoin, but with censorship, so When They Shoot The Bitcoinists, we'll live'
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-03#1665087 << which reminds me, genius boy hasn't found his ballsac to confront http://trilema.com/2013/stage-n-bitcoin-exists/ to this very day. i have nfi what they're thinking, either, what, someone walks up to you, pisses ion your drink, you'll go all buffett "we couldn't find anyone pissing in mr w's drinks" and that'll wash ?
sina: when I run gpg --decrypt input from the OTP, it says gpg: decryption failed: secret key not available
a111: Logged on 2017-06-03 02:15 asciilifeform: my least nonsensical hypothesis is that thiel funded urbit (yes) to make a half-hearted play at 'embrace&extinguish'ing bitcoin
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-03#1665077 << in general, the funding of cocksuckers is not exactly a cogent consideration in this sense. more of a case of, "whatever, she can have $bits, see what comes of it"
a111: Logged on 2017-06-03 02:12 erlehmann: on the other hand, i successfully used “see, this guy sold his dukedom in 2013” as argument to convince someone that urbit is of no use
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-03#1665069 << actually, the evaluation of the urbit thing that resulted in that decision happened mostly in this very log.
erlehmann: asciilifeform as i understand it, “~/ %add” says “use the C implementation here”. fun exercise: remove ~/ digraphs until implementation breaks.
mircea_popescu: the saying.
erlehmann: since i learned that sex is cheap i try to only fug with ppl who i would spent a similar amount of time with even if sex was not in the picture. turns out this is a good heuristic to avoid assholes.
deedbot: mircea_popescu rated sina 1 << missed on all the things!
erlehmann: mircea_popescu also i prefer the ones that have interesting stuff to say.
mircea_popescu: !!rate sina 1 missed on all the things!
erlehmann: well, i know that approach works. slowly, but it works. after a while you have a knot of people who hook up with each other.
mircea_popescu: ~only way out is to keep slavegirls, but then a) you won't particularly want to share and b) it'll take a lot of actual work.
mircea_popescu: erlehmann the problem with this approach is that females don't actually have much interesting to say as a general rule ; and the ones that do are too busy to be worth much on the hookup front.
phf: a111 is a scribe, toils at keeping the logs, what do you expect
erlehmann: mircea_popescu i once was in a channel where the rule was that new members would only be full members if they are in the local hookup graph
asciilifeform: 'we tried for the best, but got like-always'
erlehmann: asciilifeform but there is no recognizer. just a rune to tell the hoon interpreter to get fucked
herbijudlestoids: how does a fool change their pubkey association, phf or anyone? or am I just stuck now
asciilifeform: erlehmann: in practice it's a nightmare of 'chinese scholarship' -- you're forced to stick to particular forms so as to goad the recognizer into maybe-working
herbijudlestoids: in front of all tmsr I admit that I lost my old gpg keypair it seems, thought I had it in my backups but they all seem to have the current one I'm using
erlehmann: so for example the markdown support? just joking, all of this is done by some C lib
erlehmann: in the beginning i thought jets would work like a recognizer + cache
a111: Logged on 2017-06-03 01:50 phf: his concept of jets sort of reminds me of lisp VOPs, with similar failure modes. vops originally were supposed to abstract a lisp machine cpu on traditional hardware, so that, say, addition vop adds all the assembler overhead of typechecking etc. in reality it turned into an everything and kitchen sink way of adding arbitrary assembler to the system
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-03#1665007 << the concept of "jets" reminds me of the miserable sort of "vp of busines development" that's basically scarlet o'hara, and a good whipping'd have benefitted immensely.
asciilifeform: ( erlehmann : recently there are also chip fabs that charge 'only' six-figure usd: but they make pretenses to own your design! in the small print !! )
asciilifeform: erlehmann: unless you're rockefeller, it is the kind of thing you do solely if you believe that you can sell'em and make profit.
a111: Logged on 2017-06-03 01:18 asciilifeform: extracting the Stone of Folly ?
asciilifeform: it's the umpteenth 'let's bolt safety to c machine by compartmentalizing processes REALLY!!11 well with proprietary iron' attempt, mircea_popescu
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform basuically this crash-safe thing looks like a mostly theoretical xilinx blob
mircea_popescu: it's probably the case a correct cpu is closer to how they make gpus -- paste a bunch of same cores all over the chip surface and that's that.
phf: there you go
asciilifeform: there are ugly archs, and less-ugly, thread was about hard separation of processes, which can only happen on separated machines.
herbijudlestoids: so I guess then it's not just a question of Ada, but also you want a good arch
herbijudlestoids: I just mean small like 8000 LOC or whatever they said, but obviously they are offloading stuff to VT-x
herbijudlestoids: asciilifeform: yeah I noticed it is managing this small codebase because it's relying on VT-x and other virt techs also
asciilifeform: 'Muen uses Intel’s hardware-assisted virtualization technology VT-x as core mechanism to separate components. The kernel executes in VMX root mode..' << lulzy liquishit
erlehmann: trinque consider the following http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/DUowJ/?raw=true
herbijudlestoids: I had a lot of fun reading the log today of asciilifeform talking about NIC drivers
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform where is the current version or wut ?
herbijudlestoids: so is the consensus on Ada or full SPARK mode
herbijudlestoids: seems I'm not even using the same fucking gpg key
asciilifeform: ( or in their take on haskellism )
trinque will need another beer for this
deedbot: mircea_popescu rated herbijudlestoids 1 << missed on all the things.
trinque: erlehmann: I was asking you which fp you wanted to use, as several made it in here. I gather you registered more than one key?
BingoBoingo: No rating flowed other way
mircea_popescu: herbijudlestoids so then you can self-voice.
mircea_popescu: !!rate herbijudlestoids 1 missed on all the things.
mircea_popescu: herbijudlestoids we pretty much settled on ada as the proper environment for critical code, more or less.
asciilifeform: lol did he also miss the block reader
herbijudlestoids: so are others already discussing SPARK implementations of stuff here?
erlehmann: mircea_popescu i think she thinks herself to be too modest. on the other hand, she has repeatedly told me she will not fuck me without me stating sexual interest, which in my experience people only do if they actually do think about fucking.
BingoBoingo: herbijudlestoids: That's another thing you missed
mircea_popescu: it's becoming quite the thing in tmsr it seems.
erlehmann: mircea_popescu i even linked the sharpie in pooper incident to convince her of your generosity.
a111: Logged on 2017-06-02 23:56 erlehmann: dear diary, yesterday a person on IRC asked me if i am jealous after i referred to ethereum as a scam again. jealous, i asked. yes, she answered, jealous of people who invest in cryptocurrencies!
trinque: thing broke when you used it incorrectly; what's the security problem
erlehmann: trinque i see, that was the error apparently!
trinque: erlehmann: there are 4 key fingerprints in here; which did you want?
erlehmann: > Our code didn't prefix the Hex string with 0x and when we upgraded Geth from 1.5.3 to 1.5.9 on the 24th of May, the SHA3 function call failed and our sweeper process then called the contract with an invalid data payload resulting in the ETH becoming trapped.
erlehmann: > The Web3 SHA3 implementation requires the Hex value to be prefixed with 0x - optional until Geth 1.5.6.
erlehmann: BingoBoingo https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/6ettq5/statement_on_quadrigacx_ether_contract_error/
phf: in unrelated lulz erlehmann tried registering with deedbot with his key http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/vRSvx/?raw=true, every time he submits this url it returns the fingerprint 58FD21A3F5C47E7AB50496176468DB63F020E509, and he can do it multiple times. the result though is that the system appears it be in some weird partial state. i could rate him, as seen here, http://wot.deedbot.org/BDDE12104FE81BE7F83B698F5356DE4752432A9E.html but clicki
erlehmann: BingoBoingo all articles on the front page are from you. editor, edit thyself?
BingoBoingo: erlehmann: Yes, the gatekeeping mechanism is called editor
erlehmann: BingoBoingo does there exist a gatekeeping mechanism so that qntra does not drown in horsecock as kuro5hin did?
BingoBoingo: Hence the sober one is around
BingoBoingo: Well, there's quite a few people around but it's Friday night.
BingoBoingo: Well a lot has happened since then... there's a nearly two and a half year old media empire, etc
herbijudlestoids: what do you fuckin remember then :P
herbijudlestoids: I am trying to remember how we played last, it was some kind of texty thing, do you remember the interface for that?
herbijudlestoids: thought I'd drop in and check on the crazies, I see things have changed dramatically
phf: actually i'm not sure why that should be the case..
phf: there's a handy visualizer, but i've no idea what frequency it runs at
phf: there's no "democracy", you're in deedbot's level 2 web of trust through my rating. there's a handful of useful people in l1 that can at some point decide that you shouldn't really speak anymore. that's about it. if you ever become useful, you can get into l1. thus the s/r is maintained
erlehmann: > Ostracism was crucially different from Athenian law at the time; there was no charge, and no defence could be mounted by the person expelled. The two stages of the procedure ran in the reverse order from that used under almost any trial system — here it is as if a jury are first asked "Do you want to find someone guilty?", and subsequently asked "Whom do you wish to accuse?"
erlehmann: does it have other functions useful for me in my current state?
erlehmann: phf have you ever played “digital – a love story”? apparently christine love is too young, so she pieced together how 1989 looked through textfiles.com – http://scoutshonour.com/digital/
phf: the result brings me great amusement
phf: there are no rules. she doesn't recognize most of the tracks and get indignant because "i love the 90s!1" but of course through the prism of whatever survived into the early 2000s
phf: i have nothing else to add to this conversation, i am though playing "have you heard this eurodance track" game with girl, where i play something that ~everyone~ danced to in the 90s, but didn't survive the test of time and see if she heard it
a111: Logged on 2017-06-03 02:46 asciilifeform: the basic idiocy of c world is that there is permitted to exist a gap between written standard and the actual implementation programs rely on
phf: so you bring all your assumptions of what c machine is with you, and then map a "standard" on top
asciilifeform: it works -- on the unprepared.
asciilifeform: in such a way as to judas goat the authors of said code to rewrite it such that it DEMANDS the new 'improved' compiler.
asciilifeform: but at the same time subtly (or not subtly) breaking existing code,
asciilifeform: and malicious idiots can break a compiler, while still technically not violating the standard,
asciilifeform: the basic idiocy of c world is that there is permitted to exist a gap between written standard and the actual implementation programs rely on
asciilifeform: and the compiler cannot possibly infer this.
erlehmann: allowing the compiler to infer that this does not happen, ever
asciilifeform: format the disk.
asciilifeform: the thing is allowed, in theory, to catch fire, crash, substitute random number, whichever.
erlehmann: i don't get the hate against optimizing c compilers at all
asciilifeform: do read the logs.
asciilifeform: and then you get a recent gcc and find that it 'optimizes' out safety checks so that exploits can work.
asciilifeform: aaaand even after you handcraft the gentoo, with bare hands and sewing needle, you still gotta 'police' the thing constantly, and keep out the poetteringisms that continuously want to build one another, and you have to swear off maybe half of all 'modern' proggies
asciilifeform: the 'embrace & extinguish' thing. it worked.
erlehmann: judas goat, that is harsh. and to the point.
asciilifeform: but somehow 100% of the money 'evaporated' in ~decade.
erlehmann: if i was sufficiently bored, i would do the same to systemd
erlehmann: reason: i wrote a vintage filter for GNOME 3 when i discovered their screenshot app has a postprocessing step. i submitted patch and one person saw it as the garbage it was intended as, but then others were like WHAT A COOL EASTER EGG MERGE.
erlehmann: like, for the experience?
erlehmann: i knew about the patreon page and thought he was just unemployable maybe?
asciilifeform: in the end such folx invariably eatshit for free.
erlehmann: in the end he got paid for that
asciilifeform: why he even bothered to write -- remained a mystery to me
erlehmann: “if the above makes sense to you, do not attempt revolution, sit in your chair and await certain death”
erlehmann: “this is how bitcoin dies” and “we'll make our system so the state can censor everything with ease”
asciilifeform: was from the (public) beginning 'we're like bitcoin, but with censorship, so When They Shoot The Bitcoinists, we'll live'
asciilifeform: just like today's , e.g., 'ethereum' etc.
erlehmann: and where the impedance mismatches came from.
asciilifeform: my least nonsensical hypothesis is that thiel funded urbit (yes) to make a half-hearted play at 'embrace&extinguish'ing bitcoin
erlehmann: like, not the code. but i started to understand hoon digraphs.
erlehmann: my worst urbit moment: after i read some hoon language code i started to understand it. immediately decided to no longer look at the stuff.
asciilifeform: like many other american hucksters ( e.g. joseph smith ..) he is mainly good at scavenging & repackaging old crackpotteries
erlehmann: oh, but it has not ended yet! i am sure there can be at least one other unlaunch and relaunch
erlehmann: on the other hand, i successfully used “see, this guy sold his dukedom in 2013” as argument to convince someone that urbit is of no use
asciilifeform: phf: possibly this ; or possibly the cockroaches in his head decided , entirely arbitrarily, to do it, for no discernible logic at all
phf: it's a pretty standard marketing tactic: give out a bunch of stuff to high profile people, make the rest buy it on the assumption that "such and such bought"
erlehmann: and then lost interest quickly
erlehmann: especially since i had followed the urbit story at that time
asciilifeform: then a bunch more, for 'sponsors'
asciilifeform: iirc no fewer than 27, right off the bat
asciilifeform: in actuality the 'dukedoms' were handed out like candy,
asciilifeform: pretty lulzy , erlehmann is not the first to assume that asciilifeform bought something from urbit
erlehmann: phf please do not devote time to debugging. but is the result of nock([57 [4 [0 1]]]) NOT 58?
erlehmann: a simple task, really. and one i have used to mock the workings of nock (heh)
asciilifeform: it was why i wrote the nocktron
erlehmann: asciilifeform why then buy a dukedom?
asciilifeform: ( i found his repo prior to any public mention thereof )
erlehmann: asciilifeform how long did it take you to discover that urbit was built on sand? less than a year probably, going from the date on the blog post.
phf: (actually i'm not getting the same result from ascii's version as you do in your evaluator, but i don't want to devote any more time to it)
erlehmann: that being said, back to the topic at hand: intellectual dishonesty
erlehmann: the beginning of nock.sed has a label “: reduce” and a single “p” command (“print the current pattern space”)
erlehmann: asciilifeform my implementation has the questionable benefit of seeing each step of the reduction rules being applied. screenshot: http://i.imgur.com/qh3zvSv.png
asciilifeform: gotta luvv how d00d took the credit for s-k calculus
asciilifeform: it not only worked, but -- afaik -- remains the only 'optimizing' compiler of nock to x86
erlehmann: turns out changing the order of reduction rules is a problem in that case
erlehmann: funnily enough, my incomplete nock 5k implementation in sed(1) was a rough transliteration of the nock 5k spec
erlehmann: i am of the impression that any change to nock 5k should have become nock 4k, if goldbug were following his self-proclaimed principles, correct?
asciilifeform: it is more difficult to count the places where he did ~not~ commit an atrocity, than the atrocities.
phf: his concept of jets sort of reminds me of lisp VOPs, with similar failure modes. vops originally were supposed to abstract a lisp machine cpu on traditional hardware, so that, say, addition vop adds all the assembler overhead of typechecking etc. in reality it turned into an everything and kitchen sink way of adding arbitrary assembler to the system
erlehmann: or, for that matter, the silent bugfixing of nock 5k … without adjusting the temperature.
erlehmann: oh, that. well, i would argue the hints in hoon are enough to discount that stuff.
asciilifeform: ( mr. mold advocated for 'patchwork states', which were -- best as anyone could tell -- a miraculous resurrection of 16th c. italian provinces, somehow balanced in mutual non-nukeability . but in 'urbit' he implemented a reich, with central control and total dependence on the 'palace' )
asciilifeform: i bring it up because it was another d00d who advocated 1 set of principles : and implemented a very other in code
erlehmann: asciilifeform i think one of the reasons why i thought it was satire was “Make RSA Great Again”
erlehmann: it seems that it is not for other people.
erlehmann: programming (to me) is a blue collar job, like taking out the trash.
erlehmann: asciilifeform i have probably done more work on automatically capturing non-existence dependencies in real-world usecases (which seems also trivial, in retrospect) – so is it now my idea? why should i care what the guy says if he does not followup with code?
asciilifeform: erlehmann: i followed the man's mathematical work ( and made extensive use of it ) which is why i found it disheartening to watch his intellectual honesty evaporate and the quality of said work, falling through the floor. but his solution to ~nonproblem does not pique my interest, i admit
erlehmann: however, having a single command in a build script that says “rebuild the target, then rebuild the current target” seems trivial in comparison.
asciilifeform: the notion that it is separable, is a historic mistake.
asciilifeform: idea is not separable from the originator.
erlehmann: i come from imageboard culture, where discussions only devolved into shitting on each other if a person was assuming a name