mircea_popescu: !~google russian hackers did the nyse
mircea_popescu: hey, it's just like ethereum
asciilifeform: the 'unhappenings' will be a riot ( picture the autotrading derp demanding reversed tx , etc )
mircea_popescu: obviously the presidency is a racist/rapist institution no longer adequate fopr the needs of ourdemocracy!
asciilifeform: 'the analogue hole', if you will.
asciilifeform: there is no possible counter to it, short of microshit introducing single-crystal comps ( was headed there, then mooreslaw croaked, now it is unlikely to ever happen )
asciilifeform: if you know something about the page table, can sorta cheat
asciilifeform: the ultimate win, of course, is that it also gives you a pc that you can magic into a known state on demand.
asciilifeform: stick also sees the address and data lanes, so can also record all ram fetches ( such that don't hit the cache )
asciilifeform: anyway for n00bz : a two-hole ram stick will give you snapshots of physical memory, incl. 'prohibited' (i.e. SMM) pages, undetectably to ring-whatever soft. and likewise write - gives you much of what debug probe gives, with the difference that cpu could not refuse
asciilifeform: ( cut the r/w track )
mircea_popescu: start with the true read only sticvk
asciilifeform: ( re pc vivisection : one item on asciilifeform's wish list, that does not currently exist : a doctored stick of sdram that can be read/written 'out of band', i.e. via another hole )
asciilifeform: still not quite pc bus speed. but massive improvement over the crapola that litters asciilifeform's bench, at least on paper.
mircea_popescu: it's like they got audible china in wetware
asciilifeform: lol! good company to the dyinghddbird
mircea_popescu: i'm half tempted to yank the mains just to humor him
mircea_popescu: and in other "omfg biodiversitiers" : my power alarm has this very strident, two sharp note bee-bop noise
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: hey aintcha there now again ?
mircea_popescu: and the kinds of butterflies about
asciilifeform: thing wasn't just storage, either, had tables, chairs, experimental setups going 24/7
mircea_popescu: at another time, mp lived in a place where july/dec diff was maybe 2 degrees
ben_vulpes: and yet with the premiums?
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes anything made since the war does yea
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you prolly use it in the 1000s of c
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-03#1678798 << funnily enough i always found the ~gas~ to have the superior control
ben_vulpes: just spring for the walk-in, i guess.
mircea_popescu: never saw a way to make them work for you know, 10 to 20lb sizes.
mircea_popescu: afaik the only actual implementation oif this that ~works is in morgue. they are side of beef sized drawers, and rather expensive.
ben_vulpes: well, figured the drawers would slide into and out of a refrigerated cabinet
ben_vulpes: could vinyl slides and drip trays but the complexity begins to mount
mircea_popescu: even if it neither rusts nor frezes permawet bs is horrible for hygiene
mircea_popescu: and as moisutre in the environment cools, it either rusts on them or else outright freezes
ben_vulpes: oh, as water comes out of the air, pressure drops and makes opening the thing impossible?
ben_vulpes: pidbox is like 13 bucks on ebay with thermocouple included
shinohai likes the convection properties of electric ovens
ben_vulpes: i always figured the electrical stove was just another shitanium knockoff of The Real Thing; in what ways is it so much better than gas?
asciilifeform: well, there - one bit of input per one of output. whereas here is a hash: flipping ANY bit of the input should have an impractical-to-compute effect on ~all~ of the output
mircea_popescu: except there it's a ceiling and here it's a floor.
asciilifeform: my current reading of the algo incidentally is that it IS possible for the last bit of S to flip only 1 bit of R.
mircea_popescu: speaking of which, this was to be my next step, once ben_vulpes done profiling : impl a reverser, see the impact of bitwise altered S on end result.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that's also the precursory to proof of its strenght : to reverse a 64kb msg hash you need to intuit 1mb of data.
mircea_popescu: i'd guess 1.5x the time it took to make it.
mircea_popescu: no. if you have message M, and compute a fhf on it, and give out the M, you used fhf as a hash. if you give out both H and S, you used fhf as a "bit convertor" or w/e, the original M can be extracted, with sweat.
mircea_popescu: if you have the end S of a hashing, you can reconstruct M from H.
asciilifeform: if it is some other operation, say which.
asciilifeform: see the linked thread. original subj was (the eternally misnamed) 'rsa padding' problem.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-24 01:10 asciilifeform: say i want to encipher (dun matter with what) a string, 'To: mircea_popescu Subj: thermonuke launch codes ...'
a111: Logged on 2016-12-24 01:02 asciilifeform: incidentally, since (to borrow the lament of turing's school headmaster) 'the room already stinks of mathematics', i'll share a tidbit that i promised folx some half year ago and promptly forgot:
asciilifeform: that nevertheless decompresses in something like O(N)
asciilifeform: and while we're on subj, i'd still like to see the thing applied in for the purpose i originally suggested -- a 'enemy knows 0 structure ahead of time' bitstring transform
mircea_popescu: a lot of interesting questions for the thinking man in our age.
asciilifeform: arguably von neumann's original cellular thing was the original
mircea_popescu: in fact the whole game of life thing was exploratory in that direction.
asciilifeform: i don't see any theoretical basis for this statement
asciilifeform: observation is that 'gnarly slow hash with bitwise sliders' is not so much of a pill against theenemy as running on pc hardware suggests
asciilifeform: i dun think i have quite 5k individual fpga in the parts chest, no
mircea_popescu: i'm just hoping S is over 1mb for the 64kb/2kb item and yay.
mircea_popescu: it pushes in 1st stage "well, select some criteria you REALLY care about then" and after that it's "wel lthis ball of warts does that, so fuck you with it"
mircea_popescu: this can't be a thing "i want a bunch of substantially different items that are all identical to the best performing one in any arbitrarily chosen criteria"
asciilifeform: it's called motherfucking rsa.
asciilifeform: make the rsa hasher look great in comparison tho
mircea_popescu: i confess i like the idea.
mircea_popescu: at the very least should give some indication what to look at closer
mircea_popescu: the whipsical front-and-profile-r.
asciilifeform: if you're 'managing coders' whose 'abstractions they do not in the least comprehend' it is called working honeywagon
mircea_popescu: people have this uncanny ability to describe abstracts they do not in the least comprehend.
a111: Logged on 2017-07-03 14:54 asciilifeform: whereas for item that ~you wrote~, you already have the kind of picture that a sampling profiler is giving you -- in your head
mircea_popescu: you're not gonna be remembered as "that guy who spent the whole time touristing" are you.
a111: Logged on 2017-07-03 14:38 phf came back from the woods again
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-03#1678656 << speaking of which, whatcha up to these days ?
asciilifeform: the puzzler in my head is why a ~sampling~ profiler is even necessary on anything like recent iron
phf: i think maybe it's worthwhile as an auxiliary exploration. you can run it and it will either confirm what you already understood, but sometimes it'll correct your understanding. either way you have to understand how sampling profiler works (particularly when it comes to sampling freq), to use it effectively
asciilifeform: whereas for item that ~you wrote~, you already have the kind of picture that a sampling profiler is giving you -- in your head
asciilifeform: phf: imho sampling profilers are a wholly useless thing, 'horse with pedals', unless you're working a honeywagon (e.g. virginal trb) and have deeply nfi what the hell the program is doing
phf: you can do sampling profiler to get some idea of what your mainloop looks like, but in the code of that size you should be able to reason about it. you then ensure that you have best possible type for your task, and type annotate the mainloop functions. type annotation for speed is tricky and unless you know both the standard and your implementation in and out, you have to look at the assemble of the resulting function
phf: i think ascii already made that point, that if you're profiling lisp with the vm startup, then you should also profile c machine from boot time. at the very least the vm should be warmed up by loading all the dependencies into the core, doing save-lisp on it, and then making sure that your foo.lisp has an up to date fasl. inside lisp though to achieve the optimizations you run variants of your function inside (time ...) until you bring it within the ra
phf came back from the woods again
mircea_popescu: but alf will have a field day diffing the hashes
mircea_popescu: this is turning into some pretty hardcore computering, 8 versions per M, esp in the 64kb / 2kb format
mircea_popescu: i mean for the actual data
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes you should prolly also capture the M/H pairs
lobbes: I gotta say, I'm experiencing the whole "WoT make decisions easier" thing in practice now. I.e. I know hanbot is good for it, and since I trust danielpbarron's rating of Birdman, I also trust that he, too, will be good for it
lobbes: mircea_popescu, hehe. I was thinking of implementing that once n00bs start using the thing. Make it Wot-based at some level; disabling auction service for people lower down in WoT once delinquent x amount of time
mircea_popescu: lobbes are you going to not let delinquents auction till they pay ? :D
ben_vulpes: in other news, 65536 byte message, 256 bit hash took some 2.47 hrs
ben_vulpes: i will probably just implement the slice that i actually need
mircea_popescu: consider importing just the function / class you use
a111: Logged on 2015-03-31 02:52 asciilifeform: i will now take the liberty of calling the hypothetical machine 'freyacopter'
asciilifeform: incidentally theoretically you don't need the nextprime(), all you need is to compute that gcd(e, p-1) == gcd(e, q-1) == 1.
asciilifeform: the plan 'for broken rng' is to have 7 running from 7 batteries.
mircea_popescu: this incidentally is a very undiscussed topic, suspiciously. what is the effect of generating BOTH the padding for a message and the key that's used on the same... historical debian / kochatron /etcv
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform have you seen the rngs ?
asciilifeform: lol why not 'on the same street'
asciilifeform: it was never there
asciilifeform: and -- mega-surprise -- it ain't there...
asciilifeform: ( 'someone else' being someone with 0 knowledge of the plaintext, naturally )
asciilifeform: there's a (sadly nameless) principle, where a thing that ~someone else~ could easily do to your ciphertext, is not any added problem if you do it yourself
mircea_popescu: trivial cases aside. may be hidden class there
asciilifeform: if you were to use == keys -- they actually would
mircea_popescu: this aside ; i'm kinda loath to mix rsa in both padding and encryption. for all anyone knows they resonate
asciilifeform: but theoretically this scheme -- while algebraic -- is as strong as the rsa used in the wrapping layer.
asciilifeform: 2) take the payload bitstring P, and calculate E = nextprime(P)
asciilifeform: btw here's another ! , potentially similarly bowel-loosening ! ( to the usual suspects ) hash algo on entirely different principles :
mircea_popescu: large part of usgization of normal processes. "oh, does your msg app support VIDEO ?" bitch, i don't want to watch overweight dudes with their cats braying into a mic.
mircea_popescu: basically, there's a large number of perfectly useful applications for 64kb capable hash. and upon examination it may be discovered that larger sizes not supported is not a bug
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what's the 1kb figure ?
mircea_popescu: and in other lulz, #trilema OODA loop : "hey, make an X" "what kind an X ?" "JUST MAKE AN X!" *picks arbitrary params a through w, makes such an X. "here you go" "o cool, now set b to this and q to that, link l to k and make c double d" "here." "holy shit the submarine now flies! and lays eggs! good job man!"
asciilifeform: also ( and should be theoretically possible to calculate ) what is the worst-case cycle count.
asciilifeform: 1 of the things i've been curious re mphash is bits-of-message-touched vs message-length
asciilifeform: ( what the derps call, maliciously misnamedly, 'padding' )
a111: Logged on 2016-12-24 01:02 asciilifeform: incidentally, since (to borrow the lament of turing's school headmaster) 'the room already stinks of mathematics', i'll share a tidbit that i promised folx some half year ago and promptly forgot:
asciilifeform: originally algo ( in the 1st , ancient version, suggested by asciilifeform in http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-24#1589879 thread ) was to destructure inputs for rsa signing
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: think back to what is the point of a hash to begin with
mircea_popescu: but other than that, looks like exponential on mlen and perhaps linear on hlen ?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-02#1678479 << to my eye the worst part of it is that it's very badly drawn. a) about half of the Y space is actually used, which is terrible. b) all the same color, they melt together, can't tell apart. can use color gradient ? (yes, on blue, not on red, can't see red).
mircea_popescu: historically, the best way to "inexplicably" die suddenly was to attempt to attack groups of strictly selected, very determined, technologically superior people. bitcoin is no exception, whatever the hallucinations of the "we are talking about it therefore involved in it" crowd may show.
mircea_popescu: and this isn't just mp being hoity toity. the point here is that the sort of superficial schmuck who imagines bitcoin has 6k nodes, is also the superficial schmuck who imagines if bitcoin is framed through usg owned internet, that'll "just oiccur". it won't just occur, the same day there's a nuclear blast on capitol hill, no questions asked.
mircea_popescu: sina "The Bitcoin network has more than 6,000 nodes," << lost interest at that point.
a111: Logged on 2017-07-01 23:36 sina: if you write a systemd unit file with "User=0day", it launches the process as root. Pottering sez: "not a bug"
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-02#1678477 << i have nfi why mircea_popescu went with ascii-010010010111.. for the output format
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-02#1678356 << there are afaik no acceptable autoprofilers in existence at all. they all do this idiotic thing with statistical sampling rather than actual per-line timer ( because apparently the year is eternally 1980 and there is no highres timer, or wat.)
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-02#1678431 << not only does it, but there is not even an interpreter in there as fallback ( see the old sbcl vs cmucl threads )
asciilifeform: if counting lisp runtime load, why not the c runtime.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-02#1678460 << how about we roll the boot time ( to shell!! ) of your cmachinekernel, how about?
ben_vulpes: not "unix tool as it may or may not be used in the future"
mircea_popescu: because you're timing the actual impl.
sina: ben_vulpes: I am about to head out the door so currently not the best time, but if it would help in anyway I can donate some compute to the effort
sina: well, I guess lets see how the benchmarks play out over a larger dataset, maybe it evens out over a certain bitlength or bytesizer
sina: ben_vulpes: did you use sbcl the other day when you mentioned golang impl was faster than lisp impl?
sina: or you are OK with a blackbox, in which case can just use time and avoid calling it with small loops where the runtime startup cost dominantes `time`
sina: my point was, either you *really* care about evaluating the actual main loop, which is a fair apples/apples
sina: ben_vulpes: you asked what else "it" can depend on, where "it" == whether or not runtime startup is a cost of the program or not
sina: <+ben_vulpes> runtime startup is a cost of the program, innit? <<
sina: faster in the run because its no longer "interpreting"
ben_vulpes: but extending from what i know of java's jit (not much), no. the whole file (at least in the tests i'm running) is compiled.
ben_vulpes: i wouldn't keep a lisp runtime hanging around just on the offchance i want to hash things
sina: if I make an mpfhf daemon, then no
ben_vulpes: runtime startup is a cost of the program, innit?
sina: of the main loop iterating through M
sina: because, for example, python and lisp, probably most of the time will be spent in starting the runtime/interpreter than actual computation, unless you're doing larger sized stuff
sina: here is the thing, it depends on how anally you want to measure
ben_vulpes: obvious counterargument is that "don't bother with subsecond executions, dork"
ben_vulpes: something something not great subsecond resolution or so the various reddits say?
sina: is that all you want to measure? why not just use `time` then?
sina: ben_vulpes: can we roll back and start at the usecase?
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> mircea_popescu: afaik there is no konsoomer nife. there are only industrial. << In UK "consumer" sets are being marketed for solar crowd
BingoBoingo: Unless you go full synthetic on the fuel and they why the fuck not drill for natural gas then
mircea_popescu: meet in game then.
lobbes: forgive the incoming spam
asciilifeform: hey nobody gets to escape all forces of nature. ( usa is good illustration of this : all of the parts with desirable weather, have some periodic cataclysm, earthquake or flood, pick.. )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i wasn't even rthinking getting the panels too. just get batteries, charge from network
asciilifeform: the hilltop tower house described in article seems ideal : no shades
asciilifeform: then short work neh.
asciilifeform: they are apparently catching on at telcos etc
asciilifeform: hence the prices.
asciilifeform: they're considerably less dense than lithium but last for century rather than couplayears
mircea_popescu: esp if one gets a proper set rather than consumer prepackaged bs.
mircea_popescu: that's what i was thinking, rather than get a diesel, get a very large iron cell set instead.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform oh wait, we were talking at cross purposes. yes the gas ones are small.
mircea_popescu: tiny shits are 2 stoke half the time.
asciilifeform: they dun scale so well.
asciilifeform: yeah these are terrible, i disrecommend
asciilifeform: incidentally do they have piped gas in cr ?
asciilifeform: ah hm often i forget the sheer expense of getting products of industry in bananilandia
mircea_popescu: and if you feel like spending a quarter mil or we on the generators you do and if oyu don't you don't.
mircea_popescu: so THERE!!!
asciilifeform: buncha folx even here have these. just not me
mircea_popescu: allows for a civilised shutdown rather than staying on indefinitely/
asciilifeform: and what of the diesels
mircea_popescu: it turned into a lovely teaching moment about the you know, historically principal expenditure of female calories. "that's what they did, all the way to 1800. lugged water. they still do in india."
mircea_popescu: no power, no pumps (i live up on a hillside) and so i had the girls... fery water. from the pool, with ex-paper baskets repurposed as sacas, up the fucking stairs.
mircea_popescu: and in other news from the unexpected jungle, a magistral link affording costa rica access to the brazilian electricity market failed* earlier today, resulting in no power.
sina: nothing further to report
sina: also: Complete break of RSA-1024 as implemented in Libgcrypt https://eprint.iacr.org/2017/627.pdf, "And 13% of RSA-2048 keys. Whoopsie!", "The new bit is showing that LtR sliding windows are a Very Bad Choice for modular exponentiation. Very nice."
sina: twitter quote from @i0n1c: "Ohh the irony that boot sectors are writable in Windows to support anti virus software" reply from @WeldPond: "'It became necessary to destroy the town to save it,'"
sina: if you write a systemd unit file with "User=0day", it launches the process as root. Pottering sez: "not a bug"
sina: https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/6237 << "systemd can't handle the process previlege that belongs to user name startswith number, such as 0day"
asciilifeform: '...opened up a Coinbase account for merchants that allows the school to accept cryptocurrency payments from families and automatically convert them into US dollars...'
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: if dell and microshit can pseudo-accept btc ( via usgpay ) wai not these.
ben_vulpes: https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/evdd84/10-rich-families-are-paying-their-dollar30000-preschool-tuition-in-bitcoin << let the fleecing begin!
BingoBoingo: Not ew, just another struggle to achieve victory over! Or in program-talk "Another opportunity to work your program"
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> oh, and good music = nothing after 2000, no electronica etc crapolade, none of the boy band nkotb idiocy, no faggots (michael, bowie, whatever nonsense with hats). << Celebrate Victory with 10 Years of Van Halen!!!
asciilifeform: these are - or until recently were - mechanically derived from popular search phrases
asciilifeform: in civilian wwwtrons with js, it offers 'predictions' when you type in the search box
asciilifeform: 'hateful / sexually explicit / violent / dangerous and harmful activity / other' form
mircea_popescu: oh, and good music = nothing after 2000, no electronica etc crapolade, none of the boy band nkotb idiocy, no faggots (michael, bowie, whatever nonsense with hats).
mircea_popescu: then again, i wasn't on the west coast ; nor do i have much patience for the flip flop and smoked out crowd.
mircea_popescu: as far as the theory goes, at least. in practice, the preference was very much there, she was quite popular in the basescu years.
mircea_popescu: but this one at least understands (even if only spottily applies) that she's supposed to be naked. the other ones generally do not. this one is thereby above average and therefore the preference.
asciilifeform: point was rather ' i can't see diff b/w here and commissar, same faceless face '
mircea_popescu: point being : the "i'd give it to the soviet comissar rather than to this woman" preference ain't supported.
asciilifeform: i didn't see any naked ones. but then again did not dig.
mircea_popescu: well, hence all the bathing suit pix
mircea_popescu: what sense does that make ? the central bank is just a faceless distillate of all the population.
mircea_popescu: i suppose this'd be why you dun have a network then.
asciilifeform: theoretically.
mircea_popescu: well, here used in the general sense, "if elena asks for a car and you don't give it to her, you're saving it. wtf you;'re saving it for ?"
mircea_popescu: meritocracy, let the kids starve.
mircea_popescu: she can have whatever she wants, why the hell not. who else ? who'd you be saving it for, your own kids ?
asciilifeform: ( probably the norm in usa also, otherwise it is difficult to explain why a colonel is paid ~same as a programmer )
mircea_popescu: unlike the us general, ro chick made plenty.
asciilifeform: ( there was a 1990s gag shirt -- 'have you RECONSIDERED a career in computer programming' )
mircea_popescu: ro chick, secret service general no less, spent a decade organizing these "leaderless" bullshits in ro.
mircea_popescu: (who, ironically, didn't speak too highly of it, either.)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so they did, yes. OURDEMOCRACY is older than calvin.
mircea_popescu: yet these "measures of all things" exemplars of pure humanity, that honestly believe their heads are capable of any lifting, if they "just had the facts" hurr durr lol lol snort, nevertheless can't see far enough ahead to realise they're "leaderless" because their leaders are out and out bullshit, and for no other reason.
mircea_popescu: any half drunk habitual rapist "soldier" throughout history could have summoned enoujgh sense, in the depths of his stupor, adding up five moments of clarity worth ten minutes dispersed over six weeks to figure out that "hey, the fact our so called army has nobody marching in front speaks poorly of its chances or human quality"
asciilifeform: this might be attributing too much reasoned thought to the fungal mass
mircea_popescu: meanwhile the imbecile redditard, who we shall name isis agora fuckhead for no apparent reason except obviously why, ACTUALLY BELIEVEs that it's all the rage and highly fashionable to be part of leaderless "spontaneous movements".
mircea_popescu: and speaking of this, it's not JUST ows. the "gamergate" bs is also exactly the same thing -- "leaderless" because the actual leadership is both too pussyfied to actually step in front of the troops, and too fucking stupid to even sort out ideological difficulties and so make such stepping theoretically meaningful.
mircea_popescu: that's basically bottle service, can have any day of the week
mircea_popescu: you drastically overestimate the ability of the enemy, and this appears to you as slowness. think : all they could do, ALL they could do to anoint the obama dork was ows.
mircea_popescu: that's because there's no inflation, happens naturally.
mircea_popescu: if today people started dropping cable subscription en masse, the last mile isps would petition congress and it'd become illegal to do, like electricity.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform cuz stiff and shambling. but expect the shitty isps to start "experimenting" with it
asciilifeform: the interesting q is why it has not yet happened.