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justJanne: Anyway, I'm sorry, but I don't have much time arguing with people like you stupidly about fictional politics.
justJanne: More kills in one day than the police here in 70 years -.-
justJanne: Money is invented just like laws, or countriez
justJanne: Yes.
justJanne: Money is a thing invented by people.
justJanne: And there are many successful Nordic startups and companies.
justJanne: You can start a company, and become a huge multinational even, as long as everyone has enough to fulfill their basic needs.
justJanne: Socialism, originally, was intended to do exactly this: give everyone equal chances, but then let them do their own thing. Of course you can start a company and become rich, this is no issue, as long as no one starves to death.
justJanne: Tbh, even the US nowadays is quite close to what Marx described.
justJanne: He really only complains about cartels, monopolies, unfair wages, and in general no public services.
justJanne: Yes. Read Marx.
justJanne: The Nordic model is what Marx meant, but Lenin and Stalin went totally retarded.
justJanne: The current nordic model was already discussed and partially implemented in the 1800s
justJanne: Nah, it didn't.
justJanne: As seen with the parking lots.
justJanne: The market will correct itself, if there is a market.
justJanne: Also, you often don't need laws or regulations, as they are often ignored, if you use society or physics, it works better. Example: the streets in my city. If you have no parking lots anywhere in the city, people will have to use public transport. And private investors are happy too, because they can build parking lots and charge moon prices. 8$/h
justJanne: But it was 3 years ago, and in school, so I don't remember much more except for getting in an argument with my teacher.
justJanne: I don't like most of it.
justJanne: Meh.
justJanne: Ofc I did.
justJanne: *alles
justJanne: Stability and safety über allies.
justJanne: This is Germany. The place where people will wait at an empty crosswalk at 3am on Sunday.
justJanne: Being risk averse is a very stable solution, though.
justJanne: He did the right thing.
justJanne: Nah.
justJanne: But he preferred the stable job in a company over the risk of having to depend on clients.
justJanne: He could have worked as legal attorney,
justJanne: There are also corporal lawyers working in companies writing legal terms for contracts all day long.
justJanne: Also, there are different kinds of lawyers.
justJanne: No, the issue is a different one.
justJanne: Without free education, he couldn't have ever afforded it.
justJanne: Thanks to free education, he studied law.
justJanne: Take for example my father, no money, piss poor. Would have had no money for studying. But also not able to work heavy work.
justJanne: The difference is, it works.
justJanne: The idea is to create a society where every person has an acceptable life.
justJanne: Which is the Nordic model.
justJanne: Of course most people end up designing a society where everyone has enough to live, but also has chance to become rich.
justJanne: How would you design a society, assuming you have to live in it later, you can be any person in it, it is random.
justJanne: Okay:
justJanne: When you yourself might end up a piss poor person?
justJanne: So, assuming this experiment, how can you be for an anarchist society,
justJanne: Oh, cool.
justJanne: The thought experiment is:
justJanne: And, interestingly, this thought experiment almost always ends in the Nordic model.
justJanne: It's a nice thought experiment.
justJanne: Interestingly, you should read about the veil of ignorance.
justJanne: Anyway,
justJanne: Is preferred by most of society here.
justJanne: The stuff most women prefer in general,
justJanne: Most people here agree on this, though.
justJanne: The issue is that most women prefer social stability over the chance to get rich.
justJanne: Most other people would have fallen for your propagandistic claims.
justJanne: Yes, they do.
justJanne: I took several undergrad classes in politics, macroeconomy, and political philosophy, I know what I'm talking about ;P
justJanne: trinque: most European law, yes.
justJanne: Just because the legal system of The most serene dictatorship was written by amateurs doesn't mean it's good.
justJanne: For good reason.
justJanne: In most of the world, yes.
justJanne: If the contract is worded so that it provides and obvious disadvantage for one party, it is void.
justJanne: No, you can't.
justJanne: That sounds very unfair.
justJanne: But the other party is always bound to it?
justJanne: One party can give the contract to another person,
justJanne: We have a contract between two parties.
justJanne: So, again,
justJanne: Debt as a liability and debt as an asset have to be treated the same.
justJanne: Because either contracts are inheritable, or they are not.
justJanne: This creates an issue with williamdunne's comment.
justJanne: So, then debt is only inheritable in some cases?
justJanne: Can your children force the person to pay?
justJanne: You lend someone money. You die.
justJanne: And what about inverse debt?
justJanne: And if yes, why are they so different from debt contracts?
justJanne: So, the question is, should inheriting these contracts be possible?
justJanne: But the contract is again bound to you.
justJanne: Yes.
justJanne: But the contract is specifically signed to you.
justJanne: Most stocks are a contract saying that you pay money, in return get a part of the profits and the power over a company.
justJanne: And what about inheriting stocks?
justJanne: But inheriting money is okay?
justJanne: You said inheriting debts shouldn't be a thing.
justJanne: Why is inheriting debts different?
justJanne: The question here is:
justJanne: It's not the same.
justJanne: williamdunne: it shows. It shows very much.
justJanne: You lose something due to the bad choices of your parents.
justJanne: Thing is, of you have to work and can't go to school,
justJanne: If you think so.
justJanne: Okay, back then.
justJanne: But for the person, it is the same.
justJanne: Debt is a responsibility of having to pay, yes.
justJanne: When your parents are so piss poor you have to work as a child to not starve.
justJanne: williamdunne: and what is with indirect debt?
justJanne: May those debts be monetary, or indirect.
justJanne: It is part of the poor debate.
justJanne: And having to pay taxes.
justJanne: Where is the difference between having to pay the debts of your parents
justJanne: How so?
justJanne: It is, merely, Your situation.
justJanne: The situation that you live in a place with taxes is neither your punishment nor you'd responsibility.
justJanne: Okay, so, mircea_popescu, taxes are the same
justJanne: But they shouldn't.
justJanne: So, people should be held responsible for the actions of their ancestors.
justJanne: Because I said "people aren't responsible for the actions of their ancestors"
justJanne: williamdunne: it was used as defense against my argument that "children should have equal chances, no matter if their parents are poor or rich"
justJanne: Combined, the statements are nuts.
justJanne: Some others said taxes are bad, because you personally aren't responsible for them.
justJanne: Some people said, before, people should be held responsible for the decisions of their ancestors, they can even be punished for them.
justJanne: Yes.
justJanne: *out
justJanne: And combined, these people's opinions would cancel each other our.
justJanne: The largest issue is that many people discussed with me, each having different opinions.
justJanne: Mostly.
justJanne: Mostly stating facts.
justJanne: Anyway, why are we still arguing? I said I have no issue with you trying to build your state system, I just don't believe it will last, and you guys spending 14h trying to convince me the system I like most is shit.
justJanne: Not that far.
justJanne: Anyway, we are going way off topic.
justJanne: As access to the intranet is bound through X.509 to a user account
justJanne: Nope.
justJanne: They have.
justJanne: You can get it if you are in their intranet, though.
justJanne: But Kiel's mathematicians refuse to put anything on the public web.
justJanne: I do.
justJanne: The mathematicians in Kiel still refuse to use calculators or computers.
justJanne: Uni Köln has a nice transcript.
justJanne: That's a master module.
justJanne: Nah.
justJanne: Also, it would be in German anyway.
justJanne: I'm on mobile, sadly no.
justJanne: Statistics is different.
justJanne: Theoretical statistics.
justJanne: Introduction into stochastic, yeah.
justJanne: You'll know what mean and average are.
justJanne: williamdunne: please take stochastics 101 at a university,
justJanne: I think places with low median aren't worth living in.
justJanne: That's what you think.
justJanne: Median is the middle person.
justJanne: Average is the sum divided by the amount.
justJanne: It lowers the average, but increases the median
justJanne: You got it wrong.
justJanne: So no, it's not a German issue. We still try to do our best to fix the mistakes someone else did.
justJanne: People, immigrants, from African countries, who got mutilated and then moved here
justJanne: But I know this because your quote and your article say it.
justJanne: But again, those are immigrants — they moved here decades after they were mutilated.
justJanne: Ofc it is shit.
justJanne: That's no a problem.
justJanne: And we pay them free healthcare to fix it.
justJanne: So, 24 thousand immigrants are mutilated.
justJanne: Not really.
justJanne: The largest wave of immigration was in the 70s and 80s
justJanne: Almost no immigration since then.
justJanne: *don't get in
justJanne: You don't get it without a degree and a guarantee for a job, and the circumcised people rarely have the qualifications anyway
justJanne: Approx 0
justJanne: 19% of the population are foreigners and migrants
justJanne: They are already here.
justJanne: Automatically shrinking the population to a point where it is sustainable.
justJanne: All the Nordics have 1.4, too
justJanne: So far below the replacement rate of 2.25
justJanne: Germany has a child per family rate of 1.4
justJanne: Already happening.
justJanne: (Yes, the laws in Germany apply to all "people", not just citizens)
justJanne: Nah thanks, don't wanna go into a country where anyone can be declared terrorist and stripped of their rights
justJanne: This summer? I'll work on several open source projects, like the IRC client I use right now.
justJanne: (And no, without free college I couldn't go to university.)
justJanne: Parents aren't exactly rich xD
justJanne: I haven't travelled outside EU yet. Never had the money to do so.
justJanne: Definitely worth it.
justJanne: You pay like 6% more.
justJanne: mircea_popescu: the Nordics still pay about the same taxes as the US, but you get free healthcare, free college, welfare, and an almost unregulated market.
justJanne: The company is SciEngines GmbH (they have a Wikipedia article)
justJanne: so, williamdunne, your question:
justJanne: GeldKarte, EC Karte, etc.
justJanne: Because we have so many different debit card companies >_>
justJanne: Or it was a different system.
justJanne: that's an old article then.
justJanne: It existed 10 years before bitcoin, though.
justJanne: Yup.
justJanne: Then the last person receiving it won't be able to use it.
justJanne: Copying is prevented through unique salts for each transaction.
justJanne: You can't.
justJanne: So, I send you money, by sending you a cryptographically signed info "I sent you n money"
justJanne: Your card stores a list of cryptographically signed money from the sender.
justJanne: You have at the beginning 0 money.
justJanne: They can't spend anything, as the last two statements are invalid.
justJanne: You can transfer money offline, and it is valid.
justJanne: Person C now goes online and can spend the money.
justJanne: yes.
justJanne: (All through GeldKarte)
justJanne: Person B pays person C money.
justJanne: A pays person B money.
justJanne: Imagine we have 3 people, completely offline.
justJanne: Okay, again, please listen.
justJanne: All this while they are completely offline.
justJanne: Person A can pay person B, person B can pay person C
justJanne: GeldKarte is one example.
justJanne: There is a difference between the printed money and and the way digital money works.
justJanne: I'm currently talking about northern Germany, as I don't know the internals of Denmark, it's the same, though.
justJanne: It's the same as minimum and smallest, two completely different definitions.
justJanne: The banks aren't either fully centralized, nor fully decentralized. Anyone can just open a bank, the question is if other banks will accept money from your customers as payment, as they don't know if they can trust your cryptographic signature.
justJanne: A web of nodes is a graph, as a graph, per definition, is just a set of nodes, and a set of relations between nodes.
justJanne: Every web of nodes is just a graph.
justJanne: Any homogenous graph is decentralized.
justJanne: Yes, it is.
justJanne: It's as easy as that.
justJanne: decentralized is a system where all nodes are equal.
justJanne: I mean, a startup in my city sells FPGA clusters that can be used for that (or for crypto mining), and the NSA bought 256 clusters, each should be enough to break AES256 in 2 weeks.
justJanne: I wonder how much calculation power it would take to break 4096-bit RSA.
justJanne: Hmm.
justJanne: Is because they store the money as a cryptographically signed transaction history on the card.
justJanne: The thing is, the reason why German debit cards don't work in any other place,
justJanne: Kinda.
justJanne: Just because my money is only a cryptographic signature on my credit card.
justJanne: I can send money to another merchant without it ever touching a bank
justJanne: Denmark has no digital central bank — the money flows from node to node.
justJanne: While bitcoin has millions of nodes.
justJanne: More like a web of hundreds of central points
justJanne: They aren't really centralized either.
justJanne: mircea_popescu: in Denmark, almost all transfers are digital anyway. As the official system is cheaper, faster, and easier than bitcoin even.
justJanne: davout: discussion about RSA, tbh.
justJanne: Denmark stopped printing cash last week.
justJanne: In other news,
justJanne: No matter how, or using what currency.
justJanne: From 2017 on, Denmark plans to do everything via digital money transfers.
justJanne: We'll see in 30 years how it ends.
justJanne: Declare independency, make your own laws.
justJanne: If you want, you can try it as a state.
justJanne: Again, I have no issue with your system.
justJanne: There are holes, but the result still works better than any alternative.
justJanne: Guys, please take some college courses in economy, politics, and philosophy.
justJanne: It's hard to argue with you when you ask the same questions over and over again, and just goalpost all he time
justJanne: All politicians who said the opposite ended up as dictators.
justJanne: According to every not-retarded politician, ever?
justJanne: It is the only basis.
justJanne: You want governments to sign contracts with all citizen, what's more realistic?
justJanne: It's a similar situation.
justJanne: And people still stayed there.
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