Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2015-01-23 | 2015-01-25 → ↓
mircea_popescu: mats you know on the strength of all that ima have to check out tinder now
mircea_popescu: it sounds exactly like the way i have been getting cunt the past coupla decades, ie, via the female wot, just somehow opened up to the general public.
mircea_popescu: fucking disruption ?!
mircea_popescu: mats: id imagine a feminist would approve of such female empowering tech << i approve, at least prima facie. and im pretty sure im the last feminist alive.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes, mod6, jurov, mircea_popescu: bsd not fully optimal on the little machine; presently i have it with a linux 2.6.31 kernel, lightly patched
mircea_popescu: which flavr ?
asciilifeform: generic, with several necessary patches from the cpu maker.
asciilifeform: setting up a gentoo userland.
mircea_popescu: not bad.
asciilifeform: idea is to pack the necessaries into a 'squashfs' (similar to what the device maker did with their nas app)
asciilifeform: very spacious rom (by embedded machine standards, rather than desktop luserdom, naturally)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu is gonna pass these out as party favours or what
mircea_popescu: !gettrust nubbins`
assbot: Trust relationship from user mircea_popescu to user nubbins`: Level 1: 2, Level 2: 14 via 15 connections. | http://w.b-a.link/trust/mircea_popescu/nubbins%60 | http://w.b-a.link/user/nubbins%60
asciilifeform: one thing is, curiously, missing from the box - a clock.
asciilifeform: it has to be ntp'd every time.
mircea_popescu: holy hell a sane engineer.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 4040 @ 0.00094983 = 3.8373 BTC [+] {12}
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform tell me why anyone sane would put a clock in at all if he has to ntp anyway
asciilifeform: precious little 'state' in there. even ethernet mac addr. is software-configured during init.
asciilifeform: not optionally, as it might be on your box or mine, but always. there is no rom for it.
mircea_popescu: dude find outwho the fuck designed this
mircea_popescu: i want to send them a woman in a large chocolate egg.
asciilifeform: why anyone sane would put a clock << then gotta pick where to connect
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform gotta pick that anyway.
mircea_popescu: it's the right fucking choice for this tool, and the bravery to do it right rather than buy from ibm is staggeringly beautiful to my eye
asciilifeform: as i understand, this is simply cost-cutting to the bone.
mircea_popescu: i've seen cost cutting to the bone implemented as "let's make it out of mud"
mircea_popescu: sundried.
asciilifeform: it's a nas, folks expect it to run reasonably fast and not drop bits on the floor.
asciilifeform: so, can't quite be mud.
mircea_popescu: ;;seen duffer1
gribble: duffer1 was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 10 weeks, 0 days, 13 hours, 56 minutes, and 30 seconds ago: <Duffer1> lies
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 48800 @ 0.0004753 = 23.1946 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17900 @ 0.00047433 = 8.4905 BTC [-]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: data sheet reveals that there is, in fact, 64 bits of antifuse eprom in there. but it appears that 'pogo' was lazy, did not use these for anything.
asciilifeform: there is, however, no rng of any kind whatsoever.
mircea_popescu: may be nothing fit.
asciilifeform: most curiously. (there is almost always a garbage rng, on such a chip)
asciilifeform: this is riotously funny once you recall what their other product was
asciilifeform: (tor plug)
asciilifeform: same hardware, incidentally, with different silkscreen on chassis and, naturally, different rom image (it's on their site, i won't bother linking to it, who the fuck cares)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 46100 @ 0.00047367 = 21.8362 BTC [-] {2}
Naphex: morning
assbot: The strange case of the WoodCollector and other stories. pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1ybffU5 )
assbot: Мохнатые бляди — Lurkmore ... ( http://bit.ly/1ybfsqi )
mircea_popescu: i had no idea
asciilifeform: somehow i escaped knowing of this.
mircea_popescu: "длинный шмель" uh... long bee ?!
asciilifeform: long bumblebee.
asciilifeform: (earlier links in log, to english examples.)
mircea_popescu: pretty lulzy
assbot: BitBet - EUR/USD Parity in 2015 :: 0.24 B (80%) on Yes, 0.06 B (20%) on No | closing in 11 months 6 days | weight: 99`685 (100`000 to 1) ... ( http://bit.ly/1ybi07X )
mircea_popescu: check this shit out... ANOTHER parity ?
mircea_popescu: anyone still remember back when the eur was like 60 cents and everyone was convinced it's going away ?
mircea_popescu: o hey wb scoopy.
mircea_popescu: scoopy doopy doo, where were you...
mircea_popescu: !up badon
badon: hi mircea_popescu
mircea_popescu: how goes.
badon: Looking at buying a Country Living Mill.
badon: Also noticed bitcoin ATM's in my travels today.
badon: It was an eventful day.
badon: By my standards, anyway.
assbot: A New Form of ID Allows You to Be a Citizen of the World | VICE | United Kingdom ... ( http://bit.ly/1CMN6qy )
mircea_popescu: so what, buy grain directly an make your own flour ?
mircea_popescu: fluffypony yeh, was in teh logs.
mircea_popescu feels better.
fluffypony: the horizontal stripes?
fluffypony: this makes me feel better: http://i.imgur.com/LzYEnFB.jpg
mircea_popescu: kickass penguin guy
mircea_popescu: he's like "get da fuck outta here, don't you see this is snow ?!"
Naphex: "Porn's new capitals: Romania and Colombia?" ;D
mircea_popescu: budapest sure ain't what it used to be no moar.
mircea_popescu: and the czechs are fucked out.
mircea_popescu: anyway, my hope to have each and every "social sciences" major of a us university hacking herself with a dildo for ten bux an hour is moving apace.
Naphex: hehe
badon: mircea_popescu: Yes, make my own flower, peanut butter, etc.
Naphex: there was this funny post on the RoBitcointalk, from a Romanian girl, asking how to make easy bitcoin online
Naphex: obviously everyone suggested porn :))
assbot: I'll pay for your tits pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1CnVtLn )
Naphex: but the only tardy dude that works for bitcoin foundation romania, recommended this
Naphex: "Eu ti-as recomanda alta modalitate sa castigi Bitcoin pe internet care implica webcam si microfon. Poti da lectii pe internet contra Bitcoin. O metoda mult mai buna cred eu, decat sa te prostituezi online.
Naphex: :)))))
Naphex: Become a teacher!
mircea_popescu: right. and teach what.
Naphex: in op post she said she's learning some insstrument at the viena conservatory :))
assbot: Poate face cineva total incepator bani cu bitcoin? ... ( http://bit.ly/1CnVyhU )
mircea_popescu: "how to work for bitcoin foundation romania without drawing a salary : advise people to join you!"
mircea_popescu: Naphex srsly, post her teh tit link.
Naphex: done
Naphex: :))
mircea_popescu: maybe we end up how to play the vienna flute.
mircea_popescu: end up learning*
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3302 @ 0.00046695 = 1.5419 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: "There are all of 3 people on this forum who know who i really am, and every one of them would not sell that secret for $100,000 because they have a vested interest in keeping the secret. What i am is why you will never find out. I am, in fact a world famous artist, my pieces have been in the Smithsonian on exhibit at the Louvre and in the home of pompous wealthy people the world over."
mircea_popescu: well, he just gave himself away, because obviously the Smithsonian lists all artists that it ever exhibited ; so does the louvre, of course. crossreferencing these lists and excluding everyone already dead, we get a list of...
mircea_popescu: nubbins` the lulz in this thing is like self-replicating.
mircea_popescu: "There are some really great people here on the forum, and some of you i really like and enjoy talking with like Blazedout and OgNasty and TookDK"
mircea_popescu: aaaand ognasty's involved in this ?!
mircea_popescu: !gettrust assbot Blazedout419
assbot: Trust relationship from user assbot to user Blazedout419: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 4 via 6 connections. | http://w.b-a.link/trust/assbot/Blazedout419 | http://w.b-a.link/user/Blazedout419
mircea_popescu: !rate Blazedout419 -1 I suspect, without it being in any sense proven, that he was involved in "managing the brand" of the woodcollector fraudster. See http://trilema.com/2015/the-strange-case-of-the-woodcollector-and-other-stories/
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/80df86773aa16913
assbot: The strange case of the WoodCollector and other stories. pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1CMQC4e )
mircea_popescu: !v assbot:mircea_popescu.rate.Blazedout419.-1:d28e9ad9ae166d0437b767c3aab2568097ab1e4ee6d43b46233e1a05bda33db4
assbot: Successfully added a rating of -1 for Blazedout419 with note: I suspect, without it being in any sense proven, that he was involved in "managing the brand" of the woodcollector fraudster. See http://trilema.com/2015/the-strange-case-of-the-woodcollector-and-other-stories/
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35300 @ 0.00046695 = 16.4833 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14900 @ 0.0004765 = 7.0999 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8234 @ 0.00046701 = 3.8454 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23473 @ 0.00046701 = 10.9621 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12900 @ 0.00046843 = 6.0427 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18000 @ 0.00047346 = 8.5223 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 10 @ 0.10449987 = 1.045 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30500 @ 0.00047697 = 14.5476 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4700 @ 0.00047697 = 2.2418 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10500 @ 0.00047889 = 5.0283 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28420 @ 0.00046695 = 13.2707 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28176 @ 0.00047241 = 13.3106 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 3734 @ 0.00097469 = 3.6395 BTC [+] {5}
assbot: circular laser engraver engineering [ Bounty ] ... ( http://bit.ly/1JvRBbt )
nubbins`: oops wrong one
assbot: Scam Warning: WoodCollector ... ( http://bit.ly/15qUDjQ )
nubbins`: ^ and so the saga ends
nubbins`: all threads locked
nubbins`: previously interested parties wander away
danielpbarron: heh i was just catching up on that thread; harvested a lot of WoT data out of it
nubbins`: mp you know the logical conclusion to come of this is that i am somehow you, yes?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34400 @ 0.00047241 = 16.2509 BTC [+]
danielpbarron: "You cannot prove that man-made climate change is real because it's cold where I am right now" << nubbins` you think man-made climate change is real?
nubbins`: fuck off
nubbins`: live in seoul for a year, count the number of snot rags you turn black, and tell me we can keep doing this forever
nubbins`: oh, keep your yellow-dust masks too, you'll wanna count those
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26000 @ 0.00046562 = 12.1061 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30390 @ 0.00046381 = 14.0952 BTC [-] {2}
danielpbarron: gribble> Rating change | Old rating 3 | New rating: Kelticfox > 4 > Anduck | Artisan coffee for Bitcoin and a Linux guru to boot! << handcrafted coffee now?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10700 @ 0.00045925 = 4.914 BTC [-] {2}
davout: danielpbarron: kopi luwak is asscrafted :D
Pierre_Rochard: ^ definitive proof b-a is not a cult
thestringpuller: anyone know where to buy tvtorrents
thestringpuller: Pierre_Rochard: I'll tell u whuuut
thestringpuller: da boy ain't rite Pierre_Rochard
davout: thestringpuller: i read that as "anyone know where to buy terrorists?"
Adlai: b-a promotes the individual's love for zirself
thestringpuller: davout: wouldn't the purchase of terrorist essentially just be mercenaries?
thestringpuller: isn't that all PMC is?
davout: i guess so
thestringpuller: i need a way to illegally acquire tv shows
mircea_popescu: an' top of teh morning to ya
Adlai: morning
mircea_popescu: http://pastebin.com/SrVMhVi2 if anyone needs investors.
assbot: Dear Sir, I represent group of private investors from SAUDI ARABIA, CANADA AN - Pastebin.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1GNZRHM )
mircea_popescu: just as good as horowitz & co.
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu has the best porn
thestringpuller: MOAR PLZ
Adlai: lol those tourists in the background just like "the guidebook didn't mention this one!"
Adlai: for somebody who so loves social media you sure do spend a lot of time on tumblr
mircea_popescu: pictures worth 10k words.
Adlai: suddenly computer times seem much easier to survive
mircea_popescu: cunt time, computer time...
mircea_popescu: nubbins`: ^ and so the saga ends previously interested parties wander away << http://trilema.com/2015/the-strange-case-of-the-woodcollector-and-other-stories/
assbot: The strange case of the WoodCollector and other stories. pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1GO3Bt1 )
mircea_popescu: you got mentioned :)
mircea_popescu: nubbins`: mp you know the logical conclusion to come of this is that i am somehow you, yes? << it is actually quite logical if you think about it. you're clearly part of this bizarro cult that consists of not being fucking niggers. and there's AT MOST one person that may conceivably even be interested in not being a fucking nigger at all.
mircea_popescu: so... we're all chris rock.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4854 @ 0.00047353 = 2.2985 BTC [+]
mats: my dude chris rock
mircea_popescu: nubbins`: live in seoul for a year, count the number of snot rags you turn black, and tell me we can keep doing this forever << entirely different matter eh ?
mircea_popescu: mats yeah seriously, i think since carlin died rock is actually teh king o' comedy
mats: china says sorry not sorry fo' black kerchiefs
danielpbarron: guy got fired over this -> http://imgur.com/u12vtPG
assbot: CCN author gloats about Coin Fire domain theft. - Imgur ... ( http://bit.ly/1BnOFMi )
mircea_popescu: i had nfi ccn fired
mircea_popescu: what's coinfire do, it networks ?
mircea_popescu: o wait, this works.
assbot: 4 Year Sentence for Teen Who Tried to Join ISIS -- NYMag ... ( http://bit.ly/1BnP01u )
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron: << handcrafted coffee now? << this actually is a thing. I've had it in CR. It looks say like : http://trilema.com/2011/chestii-pe-care-mi-le-doresc-dar-nu-le-voi-putea-gasi-niciodata/
assbot: Chestii pe care mi le doresc dar nu le voi putea gasi niciodata pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1BnP1T4 )
TomServo: heh, 4 years for trying to board a plane?
mircea_popescu: TomServo wtf is the crime ?!
TomServo: I'm left wondering.
TomServo: She was 'on the radar' see...
mircea_popescu: Judge Raymond Moore handed down a four-year sentence, but announced from the bench that she needs psychiatric help. "I'm not saying that her decisions were all a product of mental illness... But she's a bit of a mess," said the judge. "She has no history in the criminal justice system. She is very young.... Teenagers make dumb decisions a lot."
mircea_popescu: Moore matched the sentence prosecutors requested for Conley
mircea_popescu: this is a fucking outrage, seriously.
mircea_popescu: i bet that's a magistrate "judge" too.
mircea_popescu: "19yo girl sent to prison for 4 years over her decision to marry someone Obama doesn't care for"
mircea_popescu: check it out, in the pacific islander nation of the US, virgin brides must first fuck the mullato in chief.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29600 @ 0.00045814 = 13.5609 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: Pierre_Rochard: ^ definitive proof b-a is not a cult << butt...butt... we promote hate ?
asciilifeform: or how about the fellow who went to jail for same 4 years for - hyperlinking - a few days ago.
mircea_popescu: what'd hje link to, again ?
assbot: Logged on 24-01-2015 02:41:17; asciilifeform: BingoBoingo, cazalla, mircea_popescu, qntra folks: http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015/01/23/barrett-browns-prison-time-raises-cybersecurity-journalism-concerns << today this fella went off to jail.
TomServo: asciilifeform: I was just trying to decide which is worse.
mircea_popescu: oh oh yes.
asciilifeform: he linked to, irrc, the 'stratfor' papers.
mircea_popescu: yeah, huh.
mircea_popescu: btw, i PUBLISHED them. back in the day.
asciilifeform: '“The government asserts that I am not a journalist and thus unable to claim the First Amendment protections guaranteed to those engaged in information-gathering activities,” Brown wrote in a prepared statement he planned to deliver before the judge at his sentencing.'
assbot: Stratfor lolololor. pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1BnPZii )
TomServo: heh, was he linking to you?
mircea_popescu: was a good xmas, 2011.
mircea_popescu: TomServo tbh i have nfi.
asciilifeform: 'Barrett Brown was sentenced in U.S. District Court in Dallas to 63 months in prison and ordered to pay about $900,000 in restitution Thursday on charges stemming from the incident, in which he posted a hyperlink in his reporting to information obtained by the Anonymous collective in a 2011 hack of intelligence contractor Stratfor.'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it really hurt them, that one. because well... back in 2011 the notion that we come when we please, fuck whoever we want, and leave was novel.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: moscow ?
mircea_popescu: pretty sure that's istanbul.
mircea_popescu: but then again i put amsterdam in portugal once befoar, so...
mircea_popescu: (yeh yeh tis moscow)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'мобильные телесистемы' in istanbul ?
assbot: High society pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1BnS5hW )
mircea_popescu: from back when i was rich in 2005 or something.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes, possibly other folks who work on apple machines: http://www.mondaynote.com/2015/01/18/apple-software-quality-questions
assbot: Apple Software Quality Questions | Monday Note ... ( http://bit.ly/1BnSiSi )
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 1961 @ 0.00099996 = 1.9609 BTC [-]
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: looks like a pretty decent assessment of mac software
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36315 @ 0.00045294 = 16.4485 BTC [-] {4}
pete_dushenski: pretty much why i run a variety of the older os'es and quite avoid their work suite
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: article is not the first i hear out of serious, habitual apple users re: decay.
assbot: Living In A Post-Steve World | Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski ... ( http://bit.ly/1BWZB6i )
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: aha i recall that one.
pete_dushenski: i even bought my first non-apple keyboards recently
pete_dushenski: hacking on the model m now and also picked up the unicomp knock-off
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: which apple keyboard did you own ?
asciilifeform: the last decent one, irrc, was made somewhere around 1993
mircea_popescu: yeh, can't not decay now that cap'n stevie's gone.
pete_dushenski: i was mostly using the white/clear plastic 10-keyer
asciilifeform: unicomp << a colleague of mine just threw one out. worn springs after ~1 year.
mircea_popescu: the much sadder thing is linux decaying proportionally, and linus is still there!
mircea_popescu: might be societal brain rot at work ;/
asciilifeform: linus curates - kernel.
asciilifeform: everything else - the wolves.
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: i'm hardly a power user so i hope mine lasts longer than that
pete_dushenski: the unicomp that is
asciilifeform is compiling a mutilated linux kernel as we speak
mircea_popescu: yes, he is not as powerful, or moreover, power works differently in foss.
mircea_popescu: however, it used to be enough, atsme point
asciilifeform: once there was a town outside the castle - now, wolves.
asciilifeform: castle - still there, afaik.
asciilifeform: kernel - works.
asciilifeform: and so far resists incursions of poetteringism, afaik.
mircea_popescu: societal brain rot.
mircea_popescu: "the people" are simply stupider than they were even twenty years ago.
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: what i utterly fail to grasp is why the 'unicomp' is even a thing, when actual 'model m' can be had for 20-50 usd. in working condition (if perhaps in need of a bath)
mircea_popescu: the latter point, i bet.
asciilifeform: oh noez, cleaning
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: my guess is the usb
mircea_popescu: "The second-system effect (also known as second-system syndrome) is the tendency of small, elegant, and successful systems to have elephantine, feature-laden monstrosities as their successors due to inflated expectations."
mircea_popescu: fucking wikipedia.
pete_dushenski: and no need to program keys
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: another $5 or so buys converter box
pete_dushenski: unicomp has all the normal mac keys
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: second-system effect << almost invariably discussed in the context of 'multics'
pete_dushenski: model m has to be diddled
mircea_popescu: no, it is NOT because of "inflated expectations". it is because of the barnacle effect. the world consists of a productive minority and a leechy majority. once a small elegant system becomes known, the previously uninformed majority now has a gradient to inform it. so they swarm the 2nd system, and barnacle it to all hell.
pete_dushenski: a small barrier to entry, but a barrier nonetheless
mircea_popescu: nothing is worse for a good project than poorly selected new contributors.
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: the customary mapping, iirc, is capslock->ctrl, ctrl->cmd, alt->option
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: which is easy enough to do with sizzlingkeys, but this doesn't work on pre-10.7
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: sizzlingkeys ?
assbot: SizzlingKeys for Mac OS X - Control iTunes with keyboard hot keys using this iTunes Controller ... ( http://bit.ly/1BnW5PC )
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: apple's config thing has built-in key mapper
pete_dushenski: true as well
pete_dushenski: but apple's config doesn't recognise "alt"
asciilifeform: this is the thing that always blew my mind about serious apple aficionados - they will pay, 20-100 usd, for a proggy that ought to be a 3-line perl script
decimation: mircea_popescu: re: judge who threw confused girl in jail for 4 years << nope he is a yale grad http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2012/11/14/president-obama-nominates-seven-united-states-district-courts
assbot: President Obama Nominates Seven to the United States District Courts | The White House ... ( http://bit.ly/1BnWhOX )
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: 'alt' is, iirc, called 'option' on apple box.
decimation: asciilifeform: yeah I use unicomp because mac
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: economists would say that this is the function of specialisation in an economy ;)
decimation: possibly one could remap keys though, osx actually is pretty good with that
mircea_popescu: decimation nuts
asciilifeform: decimation: the two habitual mac users i work with just threw out their unicomps (i think they were..) and bought actual 'model m' each.
decimation: yeah I would say that the unicomp strikes me as 'plastic-y'
mircea_popescu: i kinda like breaking kbds.
assbot: Issues - google-security-research - Google Security Research - Google Project Hosting ... ( http://bit.ly/1BnWQIj )
asciilifeform: 37.157.216.140 << armenia?!
mircea_popescu: seems so ?
mircea_popescu: !up Alina-malina
assbot: Issue 136 - google-security-research - OS X IOKit kernel memory corruption due to bad bzero in IOBluetoothDevice - Google Security Research - Google Project Hosting ... ( http://bit.ly/1BnWZeS )
decimation: asciilifeform: re: pogoplug << http://archlinuxarm.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2284 Arch linux dufus parade has a thread that shows the location of a uart
assbot: Arch Linux ARM • View topic - Installation on the Pogoplug Series 4 ... ( http://bit.ly/1BnX2aE )
decimation: yeah there's something in the bluetooth stack
asciilifeform: decimation: i think i linked the photo here. at any rate the uart is plain as daylight on this board.
pete_dushenski: i've never trusted apple bluetooth
asciilifeform: i'll point out that it is not necessary to use the uart on pogo unless you seriously botch the install.
pete_dushenski: goddamit i barely trust anything a macbook air does
decimation: what if you want a serial console?
[]bot: Bet placed: 1.81747625 BTC for Yes on "BTC back over $300 before March" http://bitbet.us/bet/1110/ Odds: 64(Y):36(N) by coin, 64(Y):36(N) by weight. Total bet: 5.59373041 BTC. Current weight: 83,343.
decimation: at any rate, "arch linux arm" officially supports their port on the pogoplug I gather
asciilifeform: decimation: if want - sure
asciilifeform: decimation: iirc arch linux is a systemd-ized turd.
decimation: yes, it quietly adopted years ago
asciilifeform: Alina-malina: who might you be ?
Alina-malina: asciilifeform, www.twitter.com/aleenamaleena
mircea_popescu: hi Alina-malina
mircea_popescu: are you from armenia ?
Alina-malina: hi mircea_popescu
Alina-malina: mircea_popescu, positive
mircea_popescu: lol what's that one ?
danielpbarron is half armenian
mircea_popescu: and shouldn't it read "buttcoins" ?
mircea_popescu: !rate Alina-malina 1 Voice
assbot: Alina-malina is not registered in WoT.
mircea_popescu: get in teh wot will you.
assbot: Please To PGP (Guide for Linux, OS X, Windows) | Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski ... ( http://bit.ly/1BnXKVe )
mircea_popescu: one second.
mircea_popescu: a there you go Alina-malina
pete_dushenski: danielpbarron: armenian eh? you guys are like jooz 2.0 eh
mircea_popescu: they are.
mircea_popescu: Alina-malina jewish people. like pete_dushenski
danielpbarron: it's just a little genocide
Alina-malina: we are mountain jews
pete_dushenski: danielpbarron: and financially savvy, neh?
decimation: re: eastern europe: http://www.rferl.org/content/russia-lithuania-manual-foreign-invasion/26802181.html << lol lithuania gov't, worried about Russian aggression, publicly released a 'handbook' detailing how to flee to poland
assbot: Wary Of Russian Aggression, Vilnius Creates How-To Manual For Dealing With Foreign Invasion ... ( http://bit.ly/1BnXYvN )
mircea_popescu: "swamp trolls and mountain trolls"
pete_dushenski: Alina-malina: ha!
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: please, desert trolls
mircea_popescu: decimation because russia never invaded poland...
mircea_popescu: they should have had a plan to flee to finland.
pete_dushenski: and poland never invaded lithuania...
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski that is the lol.
decimation: note, lithuania didn't draft all adult males into army, issue rifles, and begin training...
pete_dushenski: well then, lol!
decimation: "In the meantime, Lithuania is slowly strengthening its military apparatus, aiming to raise defense spending to 1.1 percent of GDP this year, and to NATO's own recommended target of 2 percent by 2020."
asciilifeform: the baltic nazis were rather miffed when they learned what their role in nato would be (human shields, corpse-carriers) on account of lacking actual armies
decimation: I can't imagine buying a surplus romanian kalash & a few sticks of c4 for every household would be more than a few $100 mil
decimation: however, what $$ cannot buy is the will to use them
asciilifeform: decimation: they would have to confront the fact that %xx of the adult men are pro-soviet
asciilifeform: and will fight on -that- side
decimation: not hold out finland style?
asciilifeform: finland is an actual country.
mircea_popescu: the baltic states are a complicated matter.
asciilifeform: interesting example of latvia, where, iirc, the greater share of adult men are on 'european tour' (sweeping floors in germany for hourly wage)
decimation: I had a professor from Warsaw in EE undergrad: he had a joke: what do you call Prof. Zak in an f-16? Simple Pole in the complex plane?
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: the men of lithuania idem
asciilifeform: in latvia, estonia, situation is somewhat 'ukraininan' in that the industrial/scientific productive folks are solidly ru-speaking (if not actual ru)
pete_dushenski: ha that's an interesting point
asciilifeform: hence, the enthusiastic suckers of usg cock are faced with waging war on everything that distinguishes their country from african pisshole
decimation: asciilifeform: also I suspect the 'productive' who didn't like living next to ru have already left.
asciilifeform: decimation: there are only so many cabs in new york to drive.
pete_dushenski reflects on distinctly pro-russian, pro-intellectual veins coursing through his ukrainian ancestry
mircea_popescu: <decimation> asciilifeform: also I suspect the 'productive' who didn't like living next to ru have already left. << quite.
pete_dushenski: decimation: ya, a century ago
decimation has ancestors who came from functioning german settlements around odessa
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu likes visible ribs, or what
mircea_popescu: the hound too houndy for your taste ?
decimation: re: clocks in computers << yes, the "RTC" chip with its shitty lithium battery and low-quality quartz is pointless
asciilifeform: hound poorly fed.
asciilifeform: decimation: not entirely pointless, as poorly written os assumes a notion of local time before network bringup
decimation: better to have the money spent on upgrading the oscillator that drives the cpu, so that accurate time can be kept in the short-run
mircea_popescu: poorly written os keyword.
decimation: the naming of time is a social phenomenon
asciilifeform: decimation: and you still need an oscillator, given as the tick counter in cpu (x86-64 has one, but it is not a universal) can stop during low-power modes
decimation: right, but usually the oscillator is a shitty plain quartz without temperature compensation
decimation: even in expensive 'professional' servers
asciilifeform: there are no 'professional' x86 boxes, only hypertrophied pc.
mircea_popescu: basically they're running 1985 chinese wristwatches
asciilifeform: an actual computer would have, at minimum, an 'oven' oscillator (capsule can also house rng.) or even rubidium oscillator.
decimation: indeed. or provisions for an external clock that has the same
mircea_popescu: nah, should be on boardwith golden contacts.
asciilifeform: interestingly, fpga dev boards often have bayonet connectors for external clocking.
asciilifeform: golden contacts naturally
decimation: time is a concern for bitcoin, and I suspect that 99% of your 'ntp' servers trace back to usg
danielpbarron: ;;isitdown bitcointalk.org
gribble: bitcointalk.org is up
decimation: via the 'gps' system
asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=668 << see photograph in this article
assbot: Loper OS » Cypress EZ-Host Firmware Development Under Linux. ... ( http://bit.ly/1uHZCZM )
asciilifeform: the coax connectors are clock in/out
asciilifeform: oscillator (upper left hand) is socketed and you can yank it.
decimation: asciilifeform: presumably because fpga board designers are solving actual problem with actual hardware
mircea_popescu: decimation actually that tracing is why bitcin was designed so time isn't a concern
decimation: is time completely ignored in all the 'orphan' algorithms?
asciilifeform: most if not all public ntp is operated by governments, yes.
asciilifeform: i was actually going to suggest that ben_vulpes et. al. run an ntp server.
mircea_popescu: decimation not completely ignored, but one minute disagreements don't matter.
asciilifeform: if only so that 'pogo' node can be pointed to it.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes, et al : these boxes won't be ready for battlefield until seeding patch.
decimation: so the ability to run a clock within 1 min of other nodes worldwide is an implied requirement (or finding someone nearby with the same)
asciilifeform out to meatspace for a spell
mircea_popescu: decimation no, the ability to keep time within about a minute of what your previous idea of time was when the previous block was mined.
mircea_popescu: basically the bitcoin requirement is that your time is within ~10% ish of itself. so you can travel at up to 30Mm/sec.
mircea_popescu: ie, if the network thinks block 2 is mined at 12:00, and your clock thinks it's 17:55, and then block three is, according to the network, mined at 12:11 but your clock thinks it's 18:22 you'll have a problem.
mircea_popescu: (numbers entirely arbitrary, hafta look at actual code to get actual numbers)
nubbins`: i can't even keep track of what casascius coins i have right now
nubbins`: where's my spreadsheet!
nubbins`: okay, whoa
nubbins`: how do i still have so many o.O
assbot: Got pulled over and my Trezor was confiscated, Police claimed its a voice recorder : Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bo3xKu )
nubbins`: how many tards are reading that and saying "sucks he lost his tresor!!!!" instead of "what the fuck, the cops siezed a voice recorder?!"
nubbins`: ACAB
mircea_popescu: yeah srsly.
nubbins`: "what if you were robbed at gunpoint? oh wait it already happened"
midnightmagic: yeah that part was funny
nubbins`: fool for wearing hw wallet around neck
nubbins`: at least tuck it into your fuckin shirt.
decimation: nubbins`: yeah I wonder what state he lives in
nubbins`: "got beat up, $5k of bling stolen"
decimation: could have been for breaking 'wiretap' laws
nubbins`: decimation texass
mircea_popescu: anyway, he's not getting it back.
assbot: Texas Recording Law | Digital Media Law Project ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bo3MoV )
mircea_popescu: oh, the LAW is it.
decimation: maybe he can argue his case to a 'magistrate' from yale :)
mircea_popescu: what country do you think this is, syria ?
nubbins`: mircea_popescu tbh your post went a bit off the rails when you started ranting about niggers, but otherwise reasonably well put together
nubbins`: 7/10 would not link to
mircea_popescu: what, i can't take a libertard word and redefine it to cash in on their investment ?
mircea_popescu: only they can take all the fucking words and do it ?!
nubbins` shrugs
decimation: yeah, it turns out yale owns the words
nubbins`: "nigger" is a libertard word? o.o
decimation: nubbins`: sure is
decimation: in the negative sense anyway
mircea_popescu: for the record, the definition of nigger is in http://trilema.com/2013/fried-chicken/
assbot: Fried chicken pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bo40fP )
mircea_popescu: roughly boils down to "us politician"
nubbins`: so africa is a metaphor?
decimation: I had a friend who grew up around actual black people working in the fields in the south circa ~1960; they were called niggers and called themselves niggers without offense
mircea_popescu: and also we're using rape to refer to sexual intercourse now.
mircea_popescu: no idea why, but i'll grant it's shorter, so.
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: random: you would like the show shameless.
nubbins`: anyway, rang true up until that point
thestringpuller: Or maybe i dunno. may not be smart enough for you but certain dialogue in it makes me think of trilema
nubbins`: can't say that pr's personal responsibility post wasn't clattering around the back of my mind while i was making rube jerky
mircea_popescu: nubbins` well, as the alternative usage spreads the article will become easier to read.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3647 @ 0.00046731 = 1.7043 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: nubbins` anyway, you're basically doing what fluffypony was doing on reddit : total waste of your time, subjectively,
mircea_popescu: but something i definitely respect.
nubbins` nods slowly
nubbins`: i'm in a position where this sort of thing doesn't really hinder my productivity
nubbins`: lotta paper prints these days, and paper air-dries 8)
mircea_popescu: lol then by all means.
mircea_popescu: also, arguing with idiots is, like figure skating, a sport.
mircea_popescu: keepos the blood going
nubbins`: funny cos that WC guy definitely spent 100% of the last couple days panicking and dealing w/ this
mircea_popescu: nmot the thing to do while your house's on fire, but otherwise...
nubbins`: heh.
mircea_popescu: his "fu guise i'm going home" megapost looks like it had outside help
nubbins`: in the absence of flesh, a whetstone. in the absence of whet, granite.
mircea_popescu: multiple, even
nubbins`: i actually am sorry the forum crashed
nubbins`: he actually posted an image of his "fuck you nubbins" coin
nubbins`: big vector hand w/ middle finger raised, and NUBBINS in times new roman caps underneath
nubbins`: i lel'd
fluffypony: hand crafted?
nubbins`: illustrator
nubbins`: just more clipart :)
nubbins`: thestringpuller scroll up
nubbins`: it's amerikkka, old news, nobody cares yet
nubbins`: give it a few decades
thestringpuller: i like the three k's in there
thestringpuller: "fu guise i'm going home" << weird how south park is allusion is everywhere.
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller cuz bingo sleeps!
thestringpuller: I thought this was a support channel for insomniacs tho?
thestringpuller stays up all night looking for answers on the computer.
assbot: An uncivilised breath of fresh air | Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bo5gQ3 )
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller it's like 4pm wtf are you on about lol
thestringpuller: i'm drunk
mircea_popescu: $conference
empyex: mircea_popescu: Next conference starts in 2 months and 24 days. Estimated cost today: 8.16685513 BTC (Details: http://trilema.com/2014/the-conference-third-edition/ )
thestringpuller: wow not bad.
thestringpuller: did cazalla ever send you my press credential MP?
mircea_popescu: not that i recall ?
mircea_popescu: but i saw you published in qntra neh ?
ben_vulpes: hola pumperos
assbot: Los Lobos~ La Bamba~ FULL HQ - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bo5PcH )
ben_vulpes: <mats> [] ive been here a while and i still can't get over the high class white pussy strolling the streets << take any home yet?
mircea_popescu: Despite their references to the successes of King Louis XIV, both of these books are still yoked by the exact same horse-blindering Churchillian reverence for all that is broad-franchise democracy, and in particular it’s always-in-tow little brothers, socialism and inflation. << this guy.
ben_vulpes: who's that?
ben_vulpes: !up Xuthus
mircea_popescu: that is our jewish friend pete.
mircea_popescu: he's gonna end up a sort of Bertrand Levy of the republican times.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13870 @ 0.00047319 = 6.5631 BTC [+] {2}
ben_vulpes: i was hoping for someone outside of the echo chamber.
mats: ofc
mircea_popescu: shut up and eat your cultpeas.
pete_dushenski: i imagine that cultpeas would all be the exact same size, zero variation
pete_dushenski: and be the palest, most lacklustre green
pete_dushenski: ben_vulpes: echo, echooo, echooooo
mircea_popescu: nah, get out of here
mircea_popescu: cultpeas are fucking m&m's that have spent thirty seconds in a chick's cunt.
pete_dushenski: o shit they're that good ?!
ben_vulpes: sounds melty
pete_dushenski: then why won't ben eat them ?
pete_dushenski: that hard shell is surprisingly protective
pete_dushenski: though the colours are sure to run
mircea_popescu: yeah, i have timed this. 30 seconds best seconds.
pete_dushenski: such science
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski runny colors are pretty much the identifying mark of this here cunt
mircea_popescu: i mean cult.
pete_dushenski: haha ya, blurring all the colours of all the flags
thestringpuller: pete_dushenski: you money and my money ain't the same damn kind
thestringpuller: i can live your life and my life at the same damn time
thestringpuller: - p. diddy DA RMX
ben_vulpes: <mircea_popescu> [] danielpbarron: << handcrafted coffee now? << this actually is a thing. I've had it in CR. It looks say like : http://trilema.com/2011/chestii-pe-care-mi-le-doresc-dar-nu-le-voi-putea-gasi-niciodata/ << actually how all decent coffee is made
assbot: Chestii pe care mi le doresc dar nu le voi putea gasi niciodata pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bo8mDz )
mircea_popescu: i imagine so.
ben_vulpes: (the notion that a high grade product like coffee, or chocolate can be made in bulk, in such a way to appeal to the masses...well, this is old hat around here, right?)
ben_vulpes: i don't think though that we've extended this to computational substrate yet.
pete_dushenski: thestringpuller: :)
ben_vulpes: prevailing opinion being that there's no point in making a high quality computing product...yet
ben_vulpes: <asciilifeform> [] ben_vulpes, possibly other folks who work on apple machines: http://www.mondaynote.com/2015/01/18/apple-software-quality-questions << tell me about it
assbot: Apple Software Quality Questions | Monday Note ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bo8K55 )
ben_vulpes: they have this hilarious "spreadsheet" program "Numbers" that not just disregards 20 years of spreadsheet UI finessing, but also disregards their own text input conventions.
ben_vulpes: horrid.
ben_vulpes: can't handle trivial column shooping.
ben_vulpes: references get dropped constantly.
ben_vulpes: the "calculator" in 10.10 uses javascript
ben_vulpes: and so...can't actually do math anymore.
ben_vulpes: the mourning cry is "steve is dead"
ben_vulpes: itunes has been rotting since 10.4, at least
ben_vulpes: it was an entirely serviceable music library manager, until someone decided that it needed more features.
ben_vulpes: the new iphones are lolariously large
ben_vulpes: *embarrasingly* large
ben_vulpes: "oh hang on let me take out my tablet to take this call"
ben_vulpes: "american small"
ben_vulpes: <mircea_popescu> [] "the people" are simply stupider than they were even twenty years ago. << stupider? or more?
ben_vulpes: <asciilifeform> [] this is the thing that always blew my mind about serious apple aficionados - they will pay, 20-100 usd, for a proggy that ought to be a 3-line perl script << funny, this
ben_vulpes: i was entreated by a girl to "block some sites" on her computer. jezebel, gawker, others.
ben_vulpes: thirty second task.
ben_vulpes: *seasoned* apple users totally boggled - "what did you use for that?!"
ben_vulpes: "uh, /etc/hosts?"
ben_vulpes: *crickets*
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23157 @ 0.0004722 = 10.9347 BTC [-]
jurov: coinfire now at coinfire.io... but that went down too
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes more stupider.
mircea_popescu: either that or dnsmasq to root them to localhost.
mircea_popescu: ;;ticker
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 246.67, Best ask: 247.31, Bid-ask spread: 0.64000, Last trade: 246.67, 24 hour volume: 14755.03702198, 24 hour low: 230.0, 24 hour high: 249.49, 24 hour vwap: 239.808572793
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19600 @ 0.00047423 = 9.2949 BTC [+] {3}
mircea_popescu: $conference
empyex: mircea_popescu: Next conference starts in 2 months and 24 days. Estimated cost today: 8.14434281 BTC (Details: http://trilema.com/2014/the-conference-third-edition/ )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12846 @ 0.00046809 = 6.0131 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16750 @ 0.0004785 = 8.0149 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: The Bitcoin Foundation (Or: La Serenissima Tilts at Windmills, or: So You Want to Hack on Bitcoin, or: The Bitcoin Tax) ... ( http://bit.ly/18ckgXJ )
mircea_popescu: this is pretty cool reading, coupla months later.
xanthyos: !up Bagels7
mircea_popescu: i just dropped 5 lbs of steel handcuffs on 4 lbs of laptop
mircea_popescu: no damage.
mircea_popescu: fucking plastics...
Bagels7: hello mircea. why do you post naked women every once in a while? and why do they always have their arms down in that pose
fluffypony: it's because of his religious beliefs
fluffypony: they're in their natural pose (preparing supper in the kitchen)
mircea_popescu: also because they're good subbies ? who knows.
Bagels7: how many subbies do you have
mircea_popescu: Bagels7 depends on your definition of "have"
Bagels7: well lets use your definition
mircea_popescu: im not having any right now, im sitting an' derping at computers. i had one earlier, in her ass.
Bagels7: do you really believe all women are useless if not for being a bimbo
mircea_popescu: usefulness requires a criteria.
jurov: mircea's looking forward to hanbot's obituary
Bagels7: yes, nice legs. thank you
assbot: Notes on Increasing the Maximum Bitcoin Block Size (or, "Why it ain't happenin'") ... ( http://bit.ly/18cmvKG )
jurov: she'll be useful for that at least
ben_vulpes: nah. nuffin.
Bagels7: I think I think you are sexist Micea_popescu
mircea_popescu: because, obviously, water and soap doesn't exist and who could ever wash!
mircea_popescu: Bagels7 yes, i believe there is strict and unbreachable difference between the sexes.
Bagels7: i agree
mircea_popescu: so then we're both sexists.
Bagels7: but not the ones that people think
mircea_popescu: well people generally have no idea.
mircea_popescu: punkman gotta work on your timing then
Bagels7: well there was a bunch of stuff i didn't agree with that you said but I forgot what it was
mircea_popescu: maybe you actually agreed but you forgot.
Bagels7: my boyfriend makes my coffee and sandwhiches and cooks
mircea_popescu: so good for him.
mircea_popescu: yup cute blondie
Bagels7: oh so you have no problem when the sexes are reversed. neat
Bagels7: who took all those pictures
mircea_popescu: this set prolly schwarz
punkman: who's that?
mircea_popescu: saul schwartz, did a bunch of kink sets iirc
Bagels7: No, the differences between the sexes are breachable. some men sit down to pee because their mother made them
mircea_popescu: hardly worth the mention.
Bagels7: its really common here in canada that women act like men
mircea_popescu: only to the eyes of someone who has no idea what men act like.
Bagels7: havent you heard about the pussification of the modern man
mircea_popescu: they'd at best amuse actual men.
mircea_popescu: neoteny is quite universal in teh degerate west.
Bagels7: well i know how men act like, i grew up with only a father, and all my aunts married passified men probably after they fucked a bunch of alpha's
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23400 @ 0.00048182 = 11.2746 BTC [+] {4}
gribble: Time since last block: 7 minutes and 5 seconds
hanbot: <jurov> mircea's looking forward to hanbot's obituary << lol what are you on about?
jurov: hanbot remember the trilema post that spouse of deceased man is useless except to write the obituary?
hanbot: well i remember the trilema post in which the woman's duty to write a eulogy, suck cock, and wash socks was outlined
hanbot: iono about useless
hanbot: or "spouse", for that matter ;p
jurov: Bagels7 ^^^
jurov: he was asking about it
mircea_popescu: omfg that's not what that article said, and wtf spouse!
assbot: The woman's job. pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bontgj )
mircea_popescu: !rate jurov -pi Reading Incomprehension!
assbot: Rating should be any non zero value between 10 and -10.
jurov: *gulp*
mircea_popescu: now you've done it!
mircea_popescu: hanbot if you eventually decide to sue for creation of a sexually harassful working environment, pls to direct it at jurov
jurov: she's working here?
mircea_popescu: no, but nevertheless!
jurov: who else is gonna write your eulogy?
mircea_popescu: im not fucking dead yet, am i ?!
hanbot: lol this convo...
jurov: never late to plan for the occassion, isn't it?
hanbot: jurov i've heard of worse premises for dating services
mircea_popescu: jurov worked as a life insurance sales agent i bet!
jurov: lol i did for a while
mircea_popescu: anyway, off to buy the tombstone, bbl.
jurov: hanbot rather a pickup line, maybe. "wanna write my eulogy?"
hanbot: haha totally
diametric: asciilifeform: its a manual 3 axis, though i think it would take little effort to make it a full 3 axis.
diametric: asciilifeform: in context of the wood dong guy, he could vary height with the intensity as well, but it becomes really, really apparently its lasered because the edges are always charred
diametric: not that it matters, his shit is already obviously lasered.
diametric: also, nubbins`, your dedication to this guy is amazing.
assbot: AMAZING COMPANY!
assbot: The Myth Of The Megabyte Bitcoin Block ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bor0LM )
ben_vulpes: <jurov> [] hanbot rather a pickup line, maybe. "wanna write my eulogy?" << i have actually used this one
jurov: successfully?
ben_vulpes: yeah!
ben_vulpes: we were like 14? 15? derping around on livejournal.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9417 @ 0.00048561 = 4.573 BTC [+]
davout: ben_vulpes: apple numbers is unsuited for math either, it uses floats...
ben_vulpes: davout: yeah let me tell you about the manual checks in the billing process to catch rounding errors
davout: not that rounding isn't already an error in itself
davout: "you want to do some btc related accounting? well, fuck you, the decimals after the second are a $1.99 in-app purchase"
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21900 @ 0.00048632 = 10.6504 BTC [+] {2}
ben_vulpes: man seconds really crawl by when one's fucking with cron scripts
mthreat: even the damn catholic church had a backdoor in AES. https://mjos.fi/doc/gavekort_kale.pdf
ben_vulpes: salud, pete_dushenski
pete_dushenski: we meet again
assbot: Highway to hell - AC/DC (cover) Jess Greenberg - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1D406IO )
[]bot: Bet placed: 1 BTC for Yes on "EUR/USD Parity in 2015" http://bitbet.us/bet/1111/ Odds: 95(Y):5(N) by coin, 95(Y):5(N) by weight. Total bet: 1.3 BTC. Current weight: 99,494.
ben_vulpes: oh as if its even a question at this point
kakobrekla: bit4x gives you better odds
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 1500 @ 0.00099992 = 1.4999 BTC [+] {8}
ben_vulpes: a pauper is i
ben_vulpes: unqualified 'till i die
kakobrekla: i should put a banner back on bb
assbot: Millions of German workers in poverty | News | DW.DE | 24.01.2015 ... ( http://bit.ly/1D41zyJ )
kakobrekla: 9.5$, not 10.5
assbot: LiveLeak.com - 21-01-2015 Peshmerga hitting ISIS on major Offensive to reach Mosul, Good use of MILAN ATGM ... ( http://bit.ly/1D44Uy2 )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14300 @ 0.0004903 = 7.0113 BTC [+] {2}
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i don't know that the thing needs to cough up *any* transaction on demand.
ben_vulpes: any *block*, yes.
ben_vulpes: any *unspent output*, yes.
ben_vulpes: my reasoning being that iterating through the blocks is adequate to get complex information out of the thing, and that producing unspent outputs is adequate for "bitcoinating" - eg, producing and signing transactions.
mats: allahu snackbar
ben_vulpes: another netsplit?
assbot: btcsim: simulating the rise of Bitcoin | Conformal Systems, LLC. ... ( http://bit.ly/1D49Pim )
ben_vulpes: anything in particular about that, mats?
mats: sim of 32MB block size
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29053 @ 0.00049077 = 14.2583 BTC [+] {2}
ben_vulpes: "a single machine acting as a full node" << conformal has yet to answer any questions re: what the specs of this "machine" were.
mats: i was thinking that
Naphex: https://i.imgur.com/M3Crl1u.jpg lmao. they totally made it look like a vagina ;o
ben_vulpes: when i made furniture, we went out of our way to put cunts into the woodworking.
mats: a man sees what he wants to see
kakobrekla: looks empty to me
ben_vulpes: kakobrekla gets it
assbot: Cubs in the Islamic State, the generation that will conquer Rome in shā Allah http://t.co/DpkdwrsdmE
mats: should get em some boots or something. c'mon.
kakobrekla: wut, leave sha alone pls
mats: cheapo bureaucrats.
assbot: Saudi Arabia's Kryptonite - Global Guerrillas ... ( http://bit.ly/1D4bep7 )
kakobrekla: >PS: If the #ISIS jihad can...
kakobrekla: hashtag isis ?
kakobrekla: twitter?
kakobrekla: irc chan ?
ben_vulpes: derpy guy?
ben_vulpes: dunno
Naphex: <+mats> a man sees what he wants to see
Naphex: i'm not denying anything
mats: p sure he's referring to the twitter isis brigade.
ben_vulpes: not the best english, but what american knows how to write well anyways?
assbot: '[openssl-announce] OpenSSL version 1.0.2 released' - MARC ... ( http://bit.ly/1D4bQLm )
kakobrekla: lemme edit that up
kakobrekla: lemme edit that up
mircea_popescu: davout: "you want to do some btc related accounting? well, fuck you, the decimals after the second are a $1.99 in-app purchase" << seriously ? like a power chord that's not six inches long ?
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i don't know that the thing needs to cough up *any* transaction on demand. << one can make his own emacs scripts do whatever one wants. notthe job of emacs to provide a preloaded button for arbitrary tasks.
ben_vulpes frowns
ben_vulpes: are you agreeing or what?
jurov: ben_vulpes: what is meant by "cough up transaction"?
ben_vulpes: ./bitcoind getrawtransaction TXID
ben_vulpes: -> LOTSAH3X
mircea_popescu: "a CPU profile of the time spent processing a 32 MB block by a full node is dominated by ECDSA signature verification, meaning that with the current infrastructure and computer hardware, scaling above 300 tps would require a clustered full node where ECDSA signature checking is load balanced across multiple machines."
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes i am agreeing yes
jurov: well, but if you attach a wallet to the node, it will need to crawl whole blockchain to get its transactions?
jurov: some means to get individual txs is needed
mircea_popescu: whoever needs this provides this.
ben_vulpes: if the node were to maintain the list of unspent transaction outputs, it would also have a list of the TXID's with unspent outputs.
ben_vulpes: it's a much more tractable problem to find transactions relevant to a given address out of that list than it is to walk the blockchain for same.
ben_vulpes: correct me if i'm wrong, but address balance is the sum of unspent transactions to that public key.
mircea_popescu: Cubs in the Islamic State, the generation that will conquer Rome in shā Allah << boys are wearing the stupid face veil thing too now ?!
jurov: but you propose to maintain only unspent ones? or none at all?
mircea_popescu: those cubs look like women.
ben_vulpes: i think that maintaining the utxo list is a good idea.
ben_vulpes: with the utxo list in hand, a node could create a raw transaction for signing by an offline node.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes it's a bad idea.
ben_vulpes: and why?
mircea_popescu: it's not unlike the "idea" to maintain a list of the phone numbers of the entire planet.
mircea_popescu: who knows, maybe you need to call someone ?
mircea_popescu: notwithstanding that in order to call someone, having the phone number is not a big deal. having a passing answer for "who's this ?" is.
jurov: with bitcoin you need to know your own phone numbers
mircea_popescu: if every phone had to maintain 6bn phone numbers ? that's terrabit memory on any phone ?
mircea_popescu: jurov so you maintain them.
jurov: yea, i'm asking how?
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: how long does a "rescan" take these days?
mircea_popescu: this is immaterial.
jurov: scouring whole blockchain every time address is added to wallet?
mircea_popescu: design is not a consideratio nof "how long does it take to bale the water out"
mircea_popescu: built it so it's not on a fucking river.
ben_vulpes: okay okay
mircea_popescu: suppose you somehow DO actually want 32mb blocks. how long does a rescan take then ?
mircea_popescu: no point in importing nonsense into the future.
ben_vulpes: so i made two claims, let's treat them seperately
ben_vulpes: a) bitcoind should not return arbitrary transactions by id
kakobrekla: every time address is added to wallet? < if this is your common practice i think you are doing something wrong
ben_vulpes: b) bitcoind *should* be able to return transactions with unspent outputs
ben_vulpes: <kakobrekla> ... something wrong << what is best practice? feedback from industry leaders would be useful here.
jurov: okay, so for one to have complete stack, run something like electrum server that maintains the tx index and connects only to our node
mircea_popescu: bitcoind should put the blocks into an accessible database. the querying of that thing is the job of the user.
jurov: yu also imply creatng useful transaction index is the job of the user
jurov: i don't have an issue w/it
jurov: just want to clarify
mircea_popescu: there's no ready way to know hat the user will want the index to be.
ben_vulpes: another claim, for your consideration
ben_vulpes: bitcoind should not maintain a wallet
mircea_popescu: trying to invent a "this is the right way" because we're the power rangers isn't the way
mircea_popescu: bitcoind-wallet should maintain a wallet.
mircea_popescu: bitcoind should broadcast verifiable txn submitted to it.
ben_vulpes: bitcoind-wallet should generate and sign transactions.
mircea_popescu: modular fucking design, so you doin't have to change the whole thing every time a part sucks [for your usecase]
mircea_popescu: like linux. i don't have to get a new version of lindows to get rid of fucking notepad
jurov: okay. but then bitcoin will not be able whether relayed transactions aren't completely bogus
jurov: if it won't have even utxo set
mircea_popescu: txn are verifiable aren't they.
kakobrekla: imho 3 parts. private key handler, bc api and a thing in between
mircea_popescu: at least yeah
kakobrekla: first runs on airgap, second on my server in dc and third on my desktop
jurov: so, it will allow me to relay 1000 doublespend transactions with different destination addresses, because it can't check if the source isn't spent already?
ben_vulpes: <mircea_popescu> txn are verifiable aren't they. << not really. transaction only includes txid of previous transaction which itself has the pubkey required for validation.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes so then how "not really" ?
ben_vulpes: do you want me to say "not at all"?
mircea_popescu: <mircea_popescu> bitcoind should broadcast verifiable txn submitted to it. <<
jurov: and to do it you need to find all the inputs, if i understand ben_vulpes correctly
ben_vulpes: like i'm 5, please.
ben_vulpes: to verify a new transaction, one needs the previous transaction in hand, in entirety.
jurov: ^all of them
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes once a transaction is proposed, the software has two options. 1) "oh , this looks like a tx involving inputs i remember were valid" and 2) "these are the inputs. check. these are their sources. check. these are their sources. check. this is the coinbase. check. ok."
mircea_popescu: 1 is wrong.
mircea_popescu: and i don't give a shit how convenient it is. let userland cut down the correct implementation for the sake of convenience.
mircea_popescu: if you check you check. if you don't check, then don't check.
jurov: mircea_popescu: but it also means it will relay all shit imaginable, you regard it as convenience otherwise?
mircea_popescu: i don';t see how it will.
jurov: how else you want to check relayed transactions from other nodes?
mircea_popescu: by looking at their inputs, an the inputs for those inputs, all the way to the valid coinbases involved.
ben_vulpes: so then the thing *does* need to retrieve arbitrary transactions.
jurov: but you sid it should not know anything about he inputs
ben_vulpes: from *its* blockchain (database).
jurov: you said it's the user's job to
mircea_popescu doesn't understand why this is contentious and will re-read.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes it needs to retrieve arbitrary blocks. why txn specifically ?
mircea_popescu: you can't have a valid txn in an otherwise invalid block.
mircea_popescu: maybe these other words work better : "transactions" is a useful notion when adding data to blocks. it is in no way useful, or even existent, when verifying anything. all you can verify, both the most and the least you can verify, are BLOCKS.
mircea_popescu: there's no such thing as "a valid transaction". merely, a valid block.
ben_vulpes: i guess this implies maintaining an index of txn hashes -> block hashes for lookup and validity checking
mircea_popescu: you can, for the sake of being silly, talk of "transactions included in valud blocks" but it really doens';t mean anythinmg. a block is a block.
mircea_popescu: you can't have "half a block"
assbot: Protocol rules - Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1tbWAMc )
jurov: step 16
mircea_popescu: jurov i thought we were discussing bitcoin as a spec, rather than bitcoin as a hack.
jurov: having whole block wont help you, you need the utxo public key
mircea_popescu: jurov once it's in a block ? for why ?
ben_vulpes: jurov: a transaction in a block contains the public key iirc
jurov: how else you 'll be cerain it's the same utxo that baked in the block?
mircea_popescu: jurov how do you care ?
mircea_popescu: im not understanding something here.
jurov: that's what i'm asking, if you don't care it won't check relayed transactions?
jurov: for all manners of double spends?
mircea_popescu: let me model this for a moment.
mircea_popescu: so block 1 is mined, 50 btc > 1block1coinbase
mircea_popescu: in block 2, a tx takes 20 btc from 1block1coinbase to 1testaddress1 ; 50 btc > 1block2coinbase
mircea_popescu: we see in block 3 a tx that proposes to take 10 btc from 1testaddress1 to 1 testaddress2. you propose we can't verify what ?
jurov: if it's laready mined, then someone else verified it
jurov: but i'm talking about 0conf transactions
mircea_popescu: exaclt.y
mircea_popescu: well the block 3 tx i named as "proposed" is a 0 conf.
mircea_popescu: so you see this 0 conf tx that's being proposed references an input in block 2. which you have and you verify and that's that.
jurov: you need to find and extract the specific inputs used and check the public keys
jurov: and if you don't have tx index, that means getting whole blocks
jurov: to get these keys
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17950 @ 0.00049152 = 8.8228 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: i feel like i just spoke into a bag over here.
mircea_popescu: if you know that block 2 is verified, and you know that 1testadress1 is the 1testaddress1, what more do you need to check ?
jurov: because addresses aren't the atomic units
ben_vulpes: if i can interrupt, i'm coming at this problem from an entirely different angle.
mircea_popescu: thy aren't ?
jurov: you can send 10 times something to an address
jurov: thwen wehn you want to spend it
jurov: you must exactly name all these 10 inputs!
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes by all means.
ben_vulpes: which is the transaction creation process.
ben_vulpes: if i'm reading correctly, you propose moving transaction creation *out* of bitcoind.
mircea_popescu: bitcoind-the full node /
ben_vulpes: i guess a step backwards is in order first
mircea_popescu: <kakobrekla> first runs on airgap, second on my server in dc and third on my desktop << seems txn are logically created on 1.
mircea_popescu: i think of bitcoind arbitrarily as 2.
mircea_popescu: and 3 is a toolset.
mircea_popescu: perhaps this mapping is only in my head ?
ben_vulpes: you're proposing a new "wallet" that knows how to create transactions.
ben_vulpes: the bitcoind *node* doesn't give a whit about transaction creation
mircea_popescu: the bitcoind node keeps a db, the bitcoind wallet selects what it wants and does what it pleases.
mircea_popescu: the bitcoind node makes sure it did what it pleased within bounds, and off it goes.
jurov: mircea_popescu: pls closer describe your idea of checking the transaction. maybe there lies the problem
jurov: you singlehandedly rejected the wiki link so you know better?
mircea_popescu: jurov i dunno how to do it better than http://log.b-a.link/?date=25-01-2015#990883
assbot: Logged on 25-01-2015 00:53:08; mircea_popescu: let me model this for a moment.
mircea_popescu: perhaps ask a question ? reductio ad absurdum ?
jurov: transaction is not checked against whole coinbase or whole blocks
jurov: but against individual outputs that it spends.
jurov: with me?
jurov: they may even not yet be in block
mircea_popescu: !up phillipsjk
mircea_popescu: i don't follow. use the formalism in the model, that's why it's there.
jurov: because your model says about whole blocks and coinbases
mircea_popescu: well... you can't have any btc to spend if you don;t have any btc to spend. that specifically means, a derivaiton of a coinbase, in a block.
decimation: before block 3 is published, 1testaddress2 sends to 1testaddress3 (both 0 verify)?
mircea_popescu: rejected.
jurov: but as 0conf transaction can be checked against other 0conf transactions (remmeber satoshidice?)
mircea_popescu: jurov but only once the previous is included.
mircea_popescu: you can't have the 3rd higher in the tree than the 2nd
jurov: no
kakobrekla: seems txn are logically created on 1. < afaik you can do it on 3 and just sign on 1
jurov: they can be all included at once (but not in reverse order)
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla hence 3 = tools.
mircea_popescu: they can "prepare" your tx, but for my formalism, it ios "created" once 1.
mircea_popescu: semantics i guess.
mircea_popescu: jurov so basdically you're talking of a degenerate case of my model, which sure, as a convenience can be implemented by my model as well.
mircea_popescu: "oh look, 3 is based on 2 which we just approved, include it too"
jurov: no i'm trying to explain transactions maintain their identity in blocks
mircea_popescu: they do not. transactions once included are no longer a thing.
decimation: so to be clear - before block 3 is verified, 1testaddress1 sends 20 btc to 1testaddress2, and 1testaddress2 sends 20 btc to 1testaddress3? Is that the issue?
mircea_popescu: they are only a thing while in mempool. but once they're in the block, they melt away.
jurov: you seem to imagine they got poured into the blocks as scraps of gold into a solid brick
mircea_popescu: this is nothing but the actual case.
jurov: it's not the case
mircea_popescu: again : all you can verify, both the most and the least you can verify, are BLOCKS.
jurov: because any new transaction explicitly names each idividual scrap
mircea_popescu: there's no such thing as "veryinfing a transaction that was already included"
mircea_popescu: that's irrelevant.
jurov: so to verify if you mus pull the scraps out
jurov: i'm about new ones
mircea_popescu: just because that's what you do now doesn't imply it's what you must do.
mircea_popescu: currently proposed transactions are verified on the basis of historically accepted blocks, not on tyhe basis of historically accepted transactions.
ben_vulpes: all that must be done is check that a tx input comes from a previous block.
ben_vulpes: s/./?
jurov: can it be done without doing the individual signatures?
ben_vulpes: ah ah but check that a transaction is in a block
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes all that needs to be done is verify that a tx input matches a previously included output, and that the block was valid.
ben_vulpes: got it
mircea_popescu: so it builds on itself
jurov: for that you want to have the outputs indexed somewhere
mircea_popescu: this "transactions bloodline" bs is a fetter.
mircea_popescu: jurov not more than in the sense of knowing which blocks they were in
jurov: okay, then we're on the same page
mircea_popescu: i think we mgiht be. will have to re-re-read this sometime that's not saturday night in between cabaret and strip club.
ben_vulpes: great
decimation: so, if one 'submits' a chain of 1000 transactions, attached to only one tx output, one can imagine that they might not verify all in the same block, depending on the mempool logic
kakobrekla: if transaction bloodline is bs, why are we against bc shelling/pruning
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla because they want to do it stupidly.
mircea_popescu: note that the way proposed above allows one to still verify the whole damned chain from block 1 onwards.
mircea_popescu: in general, we';re not against anything power rangers CLAIM to want to do. it's just that a) thjey never actually do it and b) always break other things 'attempting'
mircea_popescu: and then even more things "fixing" the "attempt"
ben_vulpes: new topic!
ben_vulpes: do bitcoind-node and bitcoind-wallet share a db?
ben_vulpes: s/do/should
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla let me put it another way : the miner output of a block is actually defined by the code as "everything left over once you substract the sum output from the sum input"
mircea_popescu: if this isn't proof that a transaction once included loses its identity i have no idea what would.
jurov: if you need to keep track in which block it is, then it does have identity
jurov: ofc when it is fully spend, then you won't have to do anymore
jurov: *spent
mircea_popescu: jurov afaik you can only "fully spend" inputs.
mircea_popescu: there's a degenerate case where you gift it to miners, but otherwise...
mircea_popescu: once you sign out of an output, it's out.
jurov: we're going in circles
jurov: leave it to later
jurov: goodnight
mircea_popescu: yeah srsly.
jurov: maybe last try: let's have deposits to mpex sprinkled in various blocks, they are unspent outputs
jurov: now you do withdrawal, you need to gather and sign all of them despite it's the same 1Fx address
jurov: that's fine, that's up to wallet
jurov: BUT
jurov: everyone who wants to check the withdraawal is valid, needs to gether them all too
jurov: to check the signatures
ben_vulpes: how are miners doing it?
jurov: they check as above
ben_vulpes: so they actually troll through the whole blockchain
mircea_popescu: jurov let's take the following case : on march 15th, 1jurovaddress gets 1 btc. on march 20th, 1jurovaddress gets 1 btc.
jurov: yes, hence the various horrible database turds
mircea_popescu: then on 25th march, 1jurovaddress pays 1 btc.
mircea_popescu: now, which btc is spent through this process is not established by you.
ben_vulpes: !up buttonwood_
mircea_popescu: but by miners.
jurov: nope
mircea_popescu: all you establish is you have 1 btc left
jurov: nope
mircea_popescu: otherwise, they sort and spend the 15th btc.
jurov: nope
mircea_popescu: <mircea_popescu> jurov i thought we were discussing bitcoin as a spec, rather than bitcoin as a hack. <<
mircea_popescu: srsly, what are we doing here!
ben_vulpes: i'm talking about the reference implementation.
ben_vulpes: what miners do is...unknowable?
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes is this "bitcoin as it should be" or "bitcoin as it is to be inferred from current codebase"
jurov: well mircea, then make a spec. many people unsuccessfully tried various mixing proposals that were supposed to do what you propose
jurov: maybe monero has it, dunno
jurov: but it hasnt' anything with bitcoin then
mircea_popescu: honestly i thought this is what the topic was.
ben_vulpes: but you're saying that if i cook up a transaction that has 1march29th as an input, the miners should actually rewrite that to use 1march15th as an input?
ben_vulpes: how is my signature even valid in that scenario?
ben_vulpes: perhaps i don't understand what all gets signed. more than likely.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes nah. im just saying, if it's ambiguous, then it's ambiguous.
jurov: it was never ambiguous
jurov: nor there was successful attempt to make it so so far
mircea_popescu: <mircea_popescu> once you sign out of an output, it's out. < o.O
ben_vulpes: if i want to spend my low-priority outputs, that's my problem.
mircea_popescu: jurov weren't you proposing that *somehow* there's ambiguous outputs as the entire point of what you were saying ?
ben_vulpes: much like if you want a > 1m transaction that's your problem
jurov: mircea where?
mircea_popescu: <jurov> now you do withdrawal, you need to gather and sign all of them despite it's the same 1Fx address << it's whjat i took this to introduce.
mircea_popescu: no srsly, we will have to revisit this topic later.
jurov: it's not ambigouous, *you*, means your wallet picks up individual deposits
jurov: makes a withdrawal out of them
jurov: and no miner ever has a say in which ones
mircea_popescu: but if they are different outputs, included in variuous blocks... they're verifiable by those blocks... ?
mircea_popescu: mebbe i dun understand what the problem is.
jurov: no, they're verifiable by themselves
jurov: regardless if they are in blocks
mircea_popescu: 1 btc from block 5, 1.5 btc also from block 5, 2 btc from block 6 -> 4.5 btc to 1derp
jurov: ^yes now that transaction would list both inputs from block 5
mircea_popescu: right, different outputs for that matter.
mircea_popescu: but the reason you know they're valid outputs is that block 5 is a valid block.
mircea_popescu: the reason ytou know block 5 is a valid block IS that they were valid outputs, or was at the time, but this is a separate topic.
jurov: "valid" and "confirmed" are two things
mircea_popescu: see ? that's the whole thing. that these two are separate.
mircea_popescu: well yes!
jurov: you can have valid unconfirmed transactions, even valid tx that spend unconfirmed transactions
mircea_popescu: but once in a block, all you can have is a confirmed block.
jurov: check that is it valid is done by checking all the inputs' singatures
mircea_popescu: you can't have "these are the valid and these are the invalid txn of block 6"
jurov: check that it is verified is done by checking it's in block somewhere
mircea_popescu: that is true but also irrelevant!
mircea_popescu: maybe the reason we've talked so long about this is because we're saying the same thing/
jurov: maybe. the issue was the need to track unspent outputs, regardless of
jurov: whether they are mined or not
ben_vulpes: and all of this because i asked about what should bear responsibility for creating and signing transactions.
jurov: right. and even if node doesn't create txs itself, i'm asking about verifying whatever txs flying around
jurov: *are
jurov: ok, see you later
mircea_popescu: going at it the other way, consider this discussion :
mircea_popescu: A. I own 500 btc.
mircea_popescu: B. I don't believe you.
mircea_popescu: A. Here's proof i control address X, and here's a payment of 500 btc to it *included in block Y*
mircea_popescu: B. A, ok.
mircea_popescu: what's being verified is a) control of the address in question and b) bitcoin feeding it included in a block.
decimation: !up buttonwood_
decimation: buttonwood_: do you work for the economist?
buttonwood_: nope, why do you ask
decimation: there's a semi-anonymous column there by the same name?
mats: seems ddosbot has been powered down
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2744 @ 0.00049181 = 1.3495 BTC [+] {2}
buttonwood_: I've been really interested in applying the smart contract technology to bitcoin-otc. Are there currently any active smart contracts or oracles doing escrow trading on bitcoin irc ?
mats: its not a real thing, buttonwood_.
mats: hasn't been done, won't be done.
buttonwood_: @mats what's not?
buttonwood_: why not
mats: 'smart contract technology'.
mats: because 'hard ai' doesn't exist yet.
buttonwood_: what about a multi sig oracle
mats: all extant projects purporting to be 'smart contract technology' is a scam. like ethereum.
mats: look, you can't offload the complex business of trust to anything but a human.
mats: can't be done. deal with people you trust or don't do business, full stop.
buttonwood_: but the trust can be drastically reduced
buttonwood_: multi sig is a perfect example
mats: multi sig and escrow are essentially bad patches to a broken trust model
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 64709 @ 0.00049611 = 32.1028 BTC [+] {4}
mats: sack up and take responsibility for your actions.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 59891 @ 0.00048544 = 29.0735 BTC [-] {4}
mats: offloading due diligence and trying to use technology as a crutch to paper over deficiencies in your business relationship sounds suspiciously like the old world way of doing things
buttonwood_: There has to be a better way to do otc trades tho. I can't believe that trusting somebody on bitcoin-otc with a good rating is the optimal solution
mats: use the ratings and talk to the raters
buttonwood_: @mats do you work on any bitcoin related projects currently?
mats: nope
ben_vulpes: <mats> use the ratings and talk to the raters << this. again and again, this.
ben_vulpes: buttonwood_: you can't trust people that you don't trust. end of story.
ben_vulpes: trust is built over time, and can't be abstracted out.
ben_vulpes: !gettrust assbot buttonwood_
assbot: buttonwood_ is not registered in WoT.
ben_vulpes: ;;gettrust buttonwood_
gribble: WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user ben_vulpes to user buttonwood_: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=ben_vulpes&dest=buttonwood_ | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=buttonwood_ | Rated since: never
ben_vulpes: you're clearly in a good position to be talking about how business should be done around here.
mats: man, this sicilian lentil soup is fucking amazing
assbot: AMAZING COMPANY!
ben_vulpes: ;;echo /msg assbot amazing
assbot: AMAZING COMPANY!
gribble: /msg assbot amazing
assbot: AMAZING COMPANY!
ben_vulpes: ;;echo /msg ben_vulpes hello
gribble: /msg ben_vulpes hello
ben_vulpes is an incompetent hacker
mats: 21:15:50 <+mats> multi sig and escrow are essentially bad patches to a broken trust model << in the way you mean to use it, that is
buttonwood_: for example, futures and options are largely inexistent in bitcoin. Mainly because of the trust involved if you were to sell me an option. If we used an oracle to do multi sig escrow or step in when there's a dispute the oracle could ensure both sides make good on the contract
ben_vulpes: there was an options exchange for a while, buttonwood_.
buttonwood_: which one MPOE?
ben_vulpes: that'd be the one, yeah.
ben_vulpes: !up buttonwood_
buttonwood_: thx
ben_vulpes: anyways, there was one. are you aware of why it shut down?
assbot: Let's hope no one got hit. http://t.co/3tfuQiAbAv
ben_vulpes: anyways, buttonwood_ are you still interested in working this thread?
Pierre_Rochard: buttonwood_ Mainly because of the trust involved if you were to sell me an option. < I’d say it’s mainly because the volatility and discount rate are going to be completely out of whack until fiat is destroyed
buttonwood_: yes they would certainly be expensive
Pierre_Rochard: hence, “largely inexistent”
[]bot: Bet placed: 2 BTC for No on "Gold to drop under $1000 before March 2015" http://bitbet.us/bet/1101/ Odds: 16(Y):84(N) by coin, 18(Y):82(N) by weight. Total bet: 12.30387905 BTC. Current weight: 61,285.
ben_vulpes: buttonwood_: ^^ that bet right there is a good example of best-in-class contracts.
ben_vulpes: arbitrated by...humans.
Pierre_Rochard: ^ exactly, the difference between a computer oracle and a human arbitrator approaches nil over time
Pierre_Rochard: ;;gettrust buttonwood_
gribble: WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user Pierre_Rochard to user buttonwood_: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=Pierre_Rochard&dest=buttonwood_ | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=buttonwood_ | Rated since: never
ben_vulpes: assuming they're any good of course
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21900 @ 0.00049024 = 10.7363 BTC [+] {2}
mats: mircea_popescu: i've observed that the number of cases meeting the parameters in the courts-circus project are very scarce: i've read every case involving the judges nubbins` listed, with the keyword privacy on Westlaw, which yielded about 90 cases
mats: mircea_popescu: but there are 11 judges with 0 cases and 12 with just 1. i'm now going through and reading every case involving USG, i've cleared ten judges this way, but the number of cases i've been able to find have been fairly low in number
mats: mircea_popescu: are you interested in loosening the requirements?
mats: i figured i'd give it a shot before proceeding, i've put at least 400 hours in already and i believe there may not be quite a lot of useful data at the end if i continue this way
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 2500 @ 0.00097526 = 2.4382 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10459 @ 0.00049322 = 5.1586 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6191 @ 0.00050758 = 3.1424 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 2500 @ 0.00096062 = 2.4016 BTC [-] {10}
mircea_popescu: <buttonwood_> I've been really interested in applying the smart contract technology to bitcoin-otc. Are there currently any active smart contracts or oracles doing escrow trading on bitcoin irc ? << no. people do thje trust calculation by hand.
mircea_popescu: <mats> multi sig and escrow are essentially bad patches to a broken trust model << mats is like the oracle on the topic now!
mircea_popescu: buttonwood_> There has to be a better way to do otc trades tho. << nope. isn't, for provable reason. isn't happening in practice, either.
mircea_popescu: !up coderwill
assbot: The Emperor is Buttnaked (BTC block size discussion with Gavin) : Buttcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1CpvB1r )
mircea_popescu: <mats> mircea_popescu: are you interested in loosening the requirements? << perhaps. do you see meaningful expansions ?
decimation: at the present time, it seems to me that bitcoin derivatives do not serve a real market need
mircea_popescu: well, public facing ones anyway.
decimation: yeah. the public can make bitbets; that's probably mostly what they want anyway
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