Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2013-10-12 | 2013-10-14 → ↓
pankkake: ;;bc,stats
gribble: Current Blocks: 263279 | Current Difficulty: 1.8928124928103292E8 | Next Difficulty At Block: 264095 | Next Difficulty In: 816 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 3 days, 17 hours, 1 minute, and 5 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 239874929.686 | Estimated Percent Change: 26.72937
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4200 @ 0.00084659 = 3.5557 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.8 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4200 @ 0.00084726 = 3.5585 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 30 @ 0.0075 = 0.225 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 3 @ 0.87479999 = 2.6244 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 44 @ 0.00769999 = 0.3388 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 15 @ 0.75466827 = 11.32 BTC [-] {7}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 75 @ 0.0073 = 0.5475 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 44 @ 0.00799898 = 0.352 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1882 @ 0.00084329 = 1.5871 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 29 @ 0.00799898 = 0.232 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 50 @ 0.00244 = 0.122 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 10 @ 0.75310063 = 7.531 BTC [-] {6}
gribble: 1.8928124928103292E8
mircea_popescu: ;;copumpkinprice
gribble: 300 USD/BTC
pankkake: ;;help copumpkinprice
gribble: (copumpkinprice <an alias, 0 arguments>) -- Alias for "echo 300 USD/BTC".
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4288 @ 0.00084786 = 3.6356 BTC [+] {2}
dub: ;;ticker --markets all
gribble: (ticker [--bid|--ask|--last|--high|--low|--avg|--vol] [--currency XXX] [--market <market>|all]) -- Return pretty-printed ticker. Default market is Mtgox. If one of the result options is given, returns only that numeric result (useful for nesting in calculations). If '--currency XXX' option is given, returns ticker for that three-letter currency code. It is up to you to make sure the code is a (1 more message)
dub: ;;ticker --market all
gribble: MtGox BTCUSD last: 143.10001, vol: 9767.85508379 | Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 127.97, vol: 7122.28147717 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 125.2, vol: 2854.25371 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 127.89, vol: 459.06856747 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 127.25, vol: 261.41486243 | Volume-weighted last average: 134.794206207
mircea_popescu: ;;wrongulate 300
gribble: 276.2198
ozbot: BitBet - Difficulty to continue increasing by over 20%
mircea_popescu: that's siome brave shit.
ozbot: 189281249.28103 | Next Diff in 760 blocks | Estimated Change: 27.8181% in 3d 19h 22m 18s
jurov: Well, assbot can kick gribble and not the other way around.
FabianB_: lol, but not in all channels :)
FabianB_: .d
ozbot: 189281249.28103 | Next Diff in 753 blocks | Estimated Change: 27.9538% in 3d 18h 24m 58s
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7350 @ 0.00085056 = 6.2516 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 107 @ 0.00722601 = 0.7732 BTC [-] {3}
turbo_ac100: ;;prevdiffchange
gribble: 27.18873
assbot: [MPEX] [S.BBET] 3800 @ 0.00050025 = 1.901 BTC [-]
dexX7: mircea_popescu: i saw the comparison of different exchanges you put on trilema in 2012. you stated explictily that mpex is unregistred. is there a specific reason, why "this is okay"?
mircea_popescu: they're all unregistered.
mircea_popescu: until such a time I move into the building vacated by the fiat ex-stock exchange, and until such a time I'm sitting on the policy panel deciding how stock exchanging works, this will remain the case.
mircea_popescu: we'll be registered once we take over, and we make the rules for registration.
dexX7: ah i see
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6455 @ 0.00084756 = 5.471 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [XBOND] [PAID] 0.69348300 BTC to 1`386`966 shares, 50 satoshi per share
ozbot: How to airgap. A practical guide. pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 96 @ 0.00244 = 0.2342 BTC [+]
dexX7: http://threatpost.com/how-defeat-full-disk-encryption-one-minute-101909/72345 << this attack is super lame.. same as: "but what if the attacker installs a hardware keylogger?"
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6670 @ 0.00085318 = 5.6907 BTC [+] {3}
dexX7: thus "full disk encryption ... that as of yet does not work" is somewhat incorrect imho. lame analogy: "passwords don't work, because you can install trojaner/keylogger"
dexX7: "gpp is broken and fail, because you can steal a private key" :p
dexX7: *gpg
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 2 @ 0.46879999 = 0.9376 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 30 @ 0.00730166 = 0.219 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 87 @ 0.00247929 = 0.2157 BTC [+] {4}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 30 @ 0.0073 = 0.219 BTC [-]
nanotube: aye, gpg is just as vulnerable to hardware keyloggers as full disk encryption. if that's your threat model, there's no reason to recommend one over the other.
nanotube: in the meantime, when using gpg on a per-file basis, that usually means decrypting and writing a file to disk in unencrypted form for editing. editing. then encrypting and wiping unencrypted.
nanotube: and you run into the "impossible to really delete stuff off modern disks" problem.
nanotube: whereas with full-disk encryption, you don't have to worry about that bit.
nanotube: but you know, nothing wrong with using both full disk encryption, /and/ an additional gpg-per-file layer for selected files.
gecko_x2: there is speculation about intel's prng implementation and wether it's spiked
gecko_x2: on the crypto mailing list
gecko_x2: i urge anyone interested to follow that convo
gecko_x2: also about ecc and if the NSA has been able to break some curves
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6000 @ 0.00085571 = 5.1343 BTC [+] {2}
gecko_x2: there is good news however
gecko_x2: the NSA is not breaking strong crypto
gecko_x2: just the endpoint security is so weak that they can do anything they like
gecko_x2: they have specialized teams for every OS out there
gecko_x2: called the 'Tailored Access Group'
gecko_x2: another piece of good news is that they are not able to break TOR
gecko_x2: all they can do is timing
gecko_x2: timing the packets that leave your client to the packets that exit an tor exit node
carly_: which mailing list you mean gecko_x2 ?
gecko_x2: well
gecko_x2: you can start with the september thread:
ozbot: The cryptography September 2013 Archive by thread
gecko_x2: be warned: your brain might explode.
gecko_x2: "[Cryptography] Opening Discussion: Speculation on "BULLRUN" "
gecko_x2: is the really interesting discussion
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 1231 @ 0.00025999 = 0.32 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.8 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 47 @ 0.86749786 = 40.7724 BTC [+] {6}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 5 @ 0.86879999 = 4.344 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 1 @ 0.43088098 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [DEALCO] 102 @ 0.006 = 0.612 BTC [+]
ozbot: We are the Litecoin dev team: AMA : litecoin
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [DEALCO] 48 @ 0.00699999 = 0.336 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 2 @ 0.45999987 = 0.92 BTC [+]
carly_: are there already some priviledged users who are able to get a beta acc for coinx?
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 156 @ 0.00725191 = 1.1313 BTC [-] {6}
nanotube: gecko_x2: yea, but one could avoid using the on-cpu rng. as to tor: would be even better if we had more nodes. there are only a total of 4k-ish.
carly_: does someone know here who is behind leetcoin?
gecko_x2: nanotube yes very true, but the main point here really is that now ppl like us are thinking about these things actively, which was the main reason for snowden to ever do this
gecko_x2: he recently stated in his moscow interview
gecko_x2: a few days ago
gecko_x2: that he was very satisfied with the reaction from the community
gecko_x2: and i agree
gecko_x2: the mere fact that we are now thinking about this stuff is gonna make life hell for the NSA going forward
gecko_x2: snowden always said his biggest fear was that nothing would changew
gecko_x2: and he doesn't have to fear anymore
gecko_x2: so his run was successful
gecko_x2: give the community half a decade to implement stuff based on this intel, and the NSA will have built their ohio fascist data centre in vain
gecko_x2: no matter how much water they use to cool down their boxes
gecko_x2: they will still not break strong crypto
gecko_x2: and endpoint security will evolve
gecko_x2: sry.. utah.. not ohio :p
nanotube: gecko_x2: indeed. the information has served as a catalyst for thought and improvement.
gecko_x2: just wait until darknet arrives
gecko_x2: the NSA will cry rivers of blood
gecko_x2: noiste is the future here
gecko_x2: noiseless steganography
gecko_x2: you combine a noiste aware tcp/ip interfac with strong symmetric OTP crypto
gecko_x2: and the NSA will be reduced to mere cockroaches which they are
gecko_x2: OTP is a nightmare for the fascists
gecko_x2: currently used mainly for online banking
gecko_x2: but it will spread to packet level eventually
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3100 @ 0.00084748 = 2.6272 BTC [-] {2}
chsados: who runs bitbet.us here?
kakobrekla: chsados: mircea_popescu , unless you got cookies.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [LABCO] 210 @ 0.00069714 = 0.1464 BTC [+] {2}
chsados: I have oatmeal rasin cookies right here next to me actually lol
kakobrekla: that works, whats up
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [LABCO] 280 @ 0.00076856 = 0.2152 BTC [+] {2}
chsados: kakobrekla: i keep getting rejected for a bet saying bad specs can I pm you and get help with pointers on wording it better with more specs?
kakobrekla: ah yeah i just saw your email
chsados: cool
kakobrekla: best to talk to mircea_popescu when he comes back
kakobrekla: he will tell you whats works and what doesnt
chsados: ;;later tell mircea_popescu would you mind PMing me with wording a bet i have attempted to create twice with rejection status "need more specs"
gribble: The operation succeeded.
chsados: thx
kakobrekla: ill have that cookie now
chsados: will a scan work?
kakobrekla: i thought you shove it in the lcd real hard and it pops up here
kakobrekla: ah well ill get it next time.
nanotube: gecko_x2: we have good tools now. problem is, [almost] nobody's using them. somehow i doubt this will change, regardless of how good our tools are.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 5 @ 0.86879998 = 4.344 BTC [-] {3}
kakobrekla: the "i dont have a 3d printer" joke completley changed in last 10 years but its still funny
chsados: lol 1 sec kakobrekla
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 80 @ 0.0025 = 0.2 BTC [+]
kakobrekla: nobody else should even look at that url
kakobrekla: dont tuch mah cookies ya hear
nubbins`: so what's the bet?
nubbins`: i see someone plunked 1 BTC on "no" for havelock's US restrictions
kakobrekla: will the cookie crumble?
kakobrekla: ah that
chsados: the cookie is nice and moist :D
nanotube: haha why does that remind me of http://bash.org/?104052
kakobrekla: bet on no it wont.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 29 @ 0.0078 = 0.2262 BTC [+]
nubbins`: glad bash is still going strong
kakobrekla: is it?
nubbins`: well
nubbins`: still a website, at least
kakobrekla: if that is how you define going strong ... mkay
nubbins`: labcoin, still going strong
assbot: Last 5 lines bashed and pending review. (http://dpaste.com/1415465/plain/)
nubbins`: silk road, still goi… wait
kakobrekla: now you are bashed while you are bashing bash
ozbot: #bitcoin-assets bash
nubbins`: there's a strong relationship between how tasty your coffee is, and how many beers you drank last night
chsados: my dog is like shaking and can barely walk.... i think he got into some ganja
nubbins`: i think "eskimobob" from btctalk has some major issues
kakobrekla: with what
kakobrekla: gypsy boiler room?
kakobrekla: or smth like dat
nubbins`: mental health
kakobrekla: ah that
nubbins`: specifically in that he fancies himself to be very clever and very wise
nubbins`: but is, in fact, neither
kakobrekla: i never say im good
kakobrekla: just that others suck
kakobrekla: [along side]
ozbot: Active kid postage stamps yanked over safety concerns - World - CBC News
nubbins`: "One shows a young swimmer doing a cannonball into water. In another, a child is skateboarding wearing a helmet but no kneepads. In the third, a youngster is doing a headstand without a helmet."
nubbins`: a HEADSTAND without a fucking HELMET.
nubbins`: imagine!
kakobrekla: i think they forgot sarastaball?
kakobrekla: sarcastaball *
nubbins`: those stamps are pieces of shit anyway
nubbins`: what's with the random words
nubbins`: "pump high / swing"
nubbins`: "turn around / twist"
nubbins`: "hike up / climb"… y'know, hike up a fucking rope
nubbins`: and they all have "FOREVER" with a line crossing it out
nubbins`: the real news story is that the USPS decided to let some asshole design a set of stamps on his ipad
kakobrekla: he obv should use samsung tablet
nubbins`: lel yes
nubbins`: or blackberry playbook
kakobrekla: bb is so dead in yurop
nubbins`: and in canadia
nubbins`: wht a trainwreck of a company
jimbo_: bitfunder down
zoinky: wont that graph look funny when the top 3 exchanges is BTCChina
zoinky: oh its USD exchanges. nevermind..
kakobrekla: >there are NO trading fees on btcchina
nubbins`: how do they make money?
zoinky: pretty sure 0 fees is promotional, right?
kakobrekla: prolly
nubbins`: would be neat to own some ¥
nubbins`: ugh, i better get this day started. thanksgiving supper in an hour
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 30 @ 0.00735 = 0.2205 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 200 @ 0.00730005 = 1.46 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.8688 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B] [XBOND] 191 @ 0.00119 = 0.2273 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B] [XBOND] 1002 @ 0.00119507 = 1.1975 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B] [XBOND] 812 @ 0.0012 = 0.9744 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4550 @ 0.00084598 = 3.8492 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: ;;later tell chsados sup
gribble: The operation succeeded.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B] [XBOND] 359 @ 0.00119 = 0.4272 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: dexX7 not quite. passwords suck on http because http is stateless. that's true.
mircea_popescu: nanotube if i get your "full disk encrupted" pc i can full disk decrypt it. if i get your gpg'd stuff, good luck to me.
dexX7: haha, i was just pulling out stupid examples to find something simliar to "full disk encryption sucks, because of attacks based on direct access to the hardware"
mircea_popescu: but that's the usecase man. full disk encryption is supposed to protect the data from physical access attacks.
mircea_popescu: if it fails to do that, it fails.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 2 @ 0.81000005 = 1.62 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2450 @ 0.00084544 = 2.0713 BTC [-] {2}
dexX7: hm.. in that case you're right, but i'd assume the standard scenario is more like "bad guy sneaks into your house and steals your hdd"
mircea_popescu: so what is this, "it's safe because bad guy is presumed stupid" ?
mircea_popescu: why not just use rot13 then
dexX7: even a stupid guy can figure something out, if he's given enough time
mircea_popescu: nanotube and as to "use both" : the point of science, any science, is to isolate what works from what doesn't and exclude the latter. this is why dentist treats your teeth his way rather than recommending you "also use shaman method".
dexX7: i'd like to know: why do you say single file encryption is preferred?
mircea_popescu: because should you obtain the encrypted file there's nothing you can do.
dexX7: same applies to "encrypted hard drive", so you already include "direct access attacks". i'll rephrase then: how is single file encryption more secure in a similar scenario?
chsados: mircea_popescu you here?
chsados: ;;seen mircea_popescu
gribble: mircea_popescu was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 2 minutes and 53 seconds ago: <mircea_popescu> because should you obtain the encrypted file there's nothing you can do.
chsados: may I pm you
mircea_popescu: please do.
mircea_popescu: dexX7 there are numerous different avenues to remove encryption from a full disk encryption schemes.
mircea_popescu: there aren't such for plain old pgp.
jurov: <mircea_popescu> nanotube if i get your "full disk encrupted" pc i can full disk decrypt it. << how so?
jurov: the chick yu linked to did not do that
jurov: she just modified the bootloader for next time you'll input passphrase
jurov: so the same attack can be applied to gpg
mircea_popescu: jurov here's an 5 year old forum post going through the basics : http://forum.teamxbox.com/archive/index.php/t-617093.html
nanotube: mircea_popescu> nanotube if i get your "full disk encrupted" pc i can full disk decrypt it. if i get your gpg'd stuff, good luck to me. <- you are missing a crucial step. you don't just 'get my fde comp and got everything'
nanotube: you have to get it, modify it, then give it back to me, then get it again
nanotube: and if you do the same, you got my gpgd stuff just as well.
mircea_popescu: not at all.
mircea_popescu: i can just steal your key from the boot in a variety of different ways, also from recently powered down systems,
mircea_popescu: it's just nonsense. to be able to boot you will have to at some point trust the machine. that's all.
mircea_popescu: machine doesn't knwo you from me.
nanotube: the 'maid attack' that you link to
mircea_popescu: that's just one example.
nanotube: required the attacker to boot from usb, which modifies the bios/mbr to log pw. then you wait until i log on and snarf my pw
nanotube: you can't just 'steal my comp and have all my data'
dub: the latest link has thesame dependancy
mircea_popescu: yeah, actually, i can.
nanotube: mircea_popescu: got link to such attack?
mircea_popescu: ok, let's make it simple : do you agree that in order for your system to be safe it has to be powered down, whereas for gpg to be safe it doesn't have to be powered down ?
jurov: not
nanotube: not sure how aggressive gpg is in not storing your pw anywhere in memory. my /guess/ is that if you can take a memdump, you can get the gpg pw also. not sure though.
mircea_popescu: suppose i didn't touch gpg in the current session.
Bunnyh: suppose i didn't decrypt my disk in the current session?
mircea_popescu: how the hell are you going to boot an encrypted disk ?
dub: who says its booted? you're talking about completely different things tbh
mircea_popescu: basically, in the simplest of terms : fde requires key be available for the os at all times the disk is in use.
mircea_popescu: file level encryption makes a less burdensome requirement.
mircea_popescu: this alone is the end of the theoretical discussion.
dub: sure, deploying fde and feeling safe in the manner of your average global megacorp security weeny is silly but that doesnt make it broken
mircea_popescu: without going into all the ways truecrypt is broken and etc, which i don't feel i have the energy for
dexX7: yada yada.. i think you simply can't say "this one sucks, the other one is the way to go".
mircea_popescu: dexX7 except you can.
mircea_popescu: this is why you need experts : so they make definite statements in places where the common sense seems lost.
dub: that same weeny is probablt fine with accessing his pgp keys on an internet cafe kiosk
mircea_popescu: otherwise we're back to yadda yadfda, you can't say faith healing doesn't work.
mircea_popescu: dub well sure, but it still is a smaller burden. smaller burden wins.
Bunnyh: what's wrong with using fde when, say, developing software? would you rather have each of the thousands of files encrypted individually?
dub: well no
mircea_popescu: Bunnyh i am not disputing it
mircea_popescu: 's convenient in some cases. you have to appreciate we were discussing a specific rthing, ie, making an airgapped machine.
dub: dexX7: he can say that, kinda like, climate science is bunk because someone said al gore made it up
nanotube: mircea_popescu: sure, if you didn't happen to use gpg in the session, you're fine. and actually, gpg could be 'really good' at not caching pw in memory, thanks to gpg-agent being purpose-built to handle thing securely. cf this paper: philosecurity.org/pubs/davidoff-clearmem-linux.pdf‎
mircea_popescu: nanotube yeah.
nanotube: but then also, how about an encrypted partition with your files?
mircea_popescu: ftr, im not saying fde will never work. it may eventually work. we're not there yet.
mircea_popescu: nanotube as long as it's not bootable, perhaps it can be well implemented.
nanotube: would be easier to use than individual file encryption. and you'd also only access it when you need.
mircea_popescu: rightj. the death of fde is the boot part rly.
mircea_popescu: otherwise, in good old unix fashion, a partition is a file anyway.
nanotube: the boot part protects against an important class of attacks. namely, stolen/lost hardware.
mircea_popescu: except it doesn't rly. it tries to.
nanotube: which, let's face it, is a much more common class of issue than "someone actively trying to snoop at your files"
mircea_popescu: so you steal a diskload of gpg files. what now ?
dub: its exactly the same thing
nanotube: your diskload also contains a bunch of stuff you didn't encrypt
nanotube: because you must take effort to encrypt every file.
mircea_popescu: i mean i get it, it's lazy cvasisecurity. grand. may work well in many cases. i don't want it in my airgapped machine.
nanotube: so maybe, your email inbox contains your email address, and your name, and various 'non-essential files' also reveal a lot of info about you.
nanotube: with fde, they get bupkus.
mircea_popescu: i got news for you
mircea_popescu: if your email wasn't gpg'd its read long ago.
jurov: i mean, once someone is either able to reboot the machine without you knowing or freeze memory modules, it's pretty game over
nanotube: if your email was gpgd, your headers are still plain text. news for you? :)
mircea_popescu: jurov no, it's not.
mircea_popescu: nanotube nope. recall, im the guy using his real name in the bitcoin space.
nanotube: anyway, so my point is, it's good to have fde, to have easy 'blanket' protection against the common issue of accidental loss. and then you can use another layer such as gpg to protect the 'really important stuff'
nanotube: fde is not "zero benefit"
nanotube: though it's certainly "not as much benefit as we'd hope"
jurov: how not? if it's law enformcement, usually it's just sufficient to prove that you are owner of certain gpg key.
nanotube: which you are correct to bring up.
mircea_popescu: nanotube it's basically an antivirus product. it's good to have for your girlfriend, so it keeps the system sorta-above water.
jurov: then if you are unable to decrypt it, won't help you much
mircea_popescu: jurov i don't quite follow the logic there.
jurov: the logic is, such an powerful adversary doesn't really need the data, they have them from other sources, just metadata are OK to use against you
mircea_popescu: i fail to see how this works.
mircea_popescu: "your honor, we know X talked to Y. therefore X did it" ?
jurov: even if X signed stuff with private key found on such piece of evidence
jurov: now deny that
mircea_popescu: i deny. what ?
mircea_popescu: circumstantial evidence, of the weakest sort. i'll just point and laugh at you.
jurov: that you possess certain privkey on an purposely airgapped machine?
jurov: as evidenced by gpg --list-keys
jurov: without ever needing any passphrase
mircea_popescu: herp. the proof is that i keep secrets ?
mircea_popescu: what is this, england ?
Bunnyh: is it any easier to explain why have you encryped partitions but don't actually know what's in there?
mircea_popescu: Bunnyh in most free countries it's enough to say it's nobody;'s business what you kee pthere and the da can either make a case or get lost.
mircea_popescu: you're not making his case for him in any circumstance.
nanotube: can we all just agree that there are multiple attack vectors, and different approaches provide varying protections against them?
dexX7: no, please continue
Bunnyh: i'd summarize this by saying that there are needs for different granularities in encrypting data
mircea_popescu: nanotube yes, we can. but we'll have to agree that while some things provide absolute protection against the attack vector, some other things provide partial protection.
mircea_popescu: they may be more convenient or profitable or w/e, but they're still qualitatively different.
nanotube: what's this "the attack vector" you speak of? haven't we agreed that there are multiple? :D
jurov: such as denying that attack vector exists "in any circumstance" mkay.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 4 @ 0.81 = 3.24 BTC [-]
jurov: it did exist here in eastern europe, just some 25 years ago
nanotube: mircea_popescu> Bunnyh in most free countries it's enough to say it's nobody;'s business what you kee pthere <- unfortunately there are countries that are not that free.
jurov: they would sencence you on such "evidence", no problem
mircea_popescu: we can agree that wearing a maillot is kinda like being dressed, except if it gets wet, or if it gets flashed or if there's a black light etc.
mircea_popescu: jurov ostensibly they can just shoot you, too. hardly part of the discussion i guess.
Namworld: So, no one is running a MPOE or BBET passthrough currently? Jurov, would you be willing to take my holders on coinbr?
jurov: Namworld: yes
Namworld: Havelock not accepting new assets and Bitfunder might not survive for much longer it seems.
dexX7: Namworld: did hl state a proper reason?
Namworld: No proper reason
Namworld: Only thing I might keep alive is BTC-BOND, manually. Buyback every small holders, only keep large ones.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B] [XBOND] 92 @ 0.0012 = 0.1104 BTC [+]
jurov: Namworld: but if you keep that up for very last moment like you did things after mpex delisting, then i may be hard to speak to
mircea_popescu: re-reading the thing i gotta give it to dub... he kinda has good points.
jurov: Namworld: i like some planning
Namworld: Ok jurov, I guess I'll offer either buyback at 110% MPEx ask price or transfer to coinbr. I'll PM you.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 900 @ 0.00084598 = 0.7614 BTC [+]
ozbot: The Chemical Worker's Song by Great Big Sea - YouTube
jurov: oh and the real reason why i don't get the issue with fde, is that you imply attackers have access to memory and that implies the machine was on or was shut down just minutes ago
jurov: now, who is going to keep airgapped machine always on?
jurov: and if the adversary can time their attack precisely, they can as well tranquilize you right after you typed gpg passphrase
mircea_popescu: again different windows. "computer being on" vs "that second right after he's typed a pw"
jurov: i admit that. but doesn't look very different to me
mircea_popescu: that's a problem of perspective, tho.
mircea_popescu: also, whole disk vs file that was being processed. also very different payoffs.
mircea_popescu: security is, in the end, the job of minimizing exposure.
mircea_popescu: there's a reason people engaged in fencing stand sideways. and they all do it, because even if awkawrd and lulzy a stance, it is more secure.
dub: wait wat countries can you refuse to decryopt something?
mircea_popescu: all of them.
mircea_popescu: it's in the end the test of whether it's a country.
dub: right so, none
dub: in the real world
mircea_popescu: yes in the real world.
dub: praps we should all move to romania
mircea_popescu: you certainly should all move out of the us, if there's no more 5th.
dub: in most places that exist, afaik a judge can require something be opened for inspection
mircea_popescu: they can require it all they want.
mircea_popescu: they'll have to require it of their own agents.
dub: its the old $5 spanner deal though
jurov: i wish i could share mircea's ideas about actual lawfulness of the law enformcement around here
dub: you can refuse, and enjoy prison until your mind changes
mircea_popescu: that'd be a sight, criminal contempt ordered in a criminal proceeding against the defendant who pleaded the 5th.
mircea_popescu: this i wish to see.
dub: whats the 5th
mircea_popescu: ;;google 5th amendment
gribble: Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia, the ...: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution>; Fifth Amendment | LII / Legal Information Institute: <http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/fifth_amendment>; Fifth Amendment | U.S. Constitution | LII / Legal Information Institute: (1 more message)
dub: I know what it is, its a completely retarded law that only america has
mircea_popescu: in other news, i am currently eating taliban cookies, i wish it entered into the permanent record.
dub: what relevance does it have outside retardsville
mircea_popescu: ;;google maamoul
gribble: Ma'amoul - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma'amoul>; Maamoul: Stuffed Date-Orange Cookies Recipe : Food Network ...: <http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/food-network-kitchens/maamoul-stuffed-date-orange-cookies-recipe2/>; Maamoul – Recipes from a Traditional Lebanese Easter- The Food ...: <http://thefoodblog.com.au/2010/04/maamoul-recipes- (1 more message)
mircea_popescu: dub : <dub> praps we should all move to romania <mircea_popescu> you certainly should all move out of the us, if there's no more 5th.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5855 @ 0.00084917 = 4.9719 BTC [+] {2}
dub: ok so the thing that only applies to people who have already given up any freedom or right to privacy
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B] [XBOND] 300 @ 0.0012 = 0.36 BTC [+] {2}
dub: important distinction
mircea_popescu: wait what ?
dub: fyi, you don't need to even enter the US legally (transit) to be required by them to unlock and decrypt anything you are carrying
dub: phones, computers, storage etc
dub: let alone the willingness to rendite or simply drone strike in any corner of the planet
mircea_popescu: generally speaking, people can require anythning they feel like. the internet is full of derps requiring shit.
mircea_popescu: i get tons of emails requiring all sorta crap all day long.
dub: the difference isthe size of their stick
mircea_popescu: dude get out. what stick ?
mircea_popescu: what are they gonna do, punish you by paying for your three meals a day ?
dub: lol
dub: rather than expose my secrets for the fear of incarceration I'll just remain incarcerated, makes perfect sense
mircea_popescu: do anything rather than play nice with idiots.
dub: fortunately for the idiots a large percentage of people !mircea_popescu have low tolerance for the stick they wield
dub: sadly one of the security paradigms nobody seems to understand is that it must actually work
mircea_popescu: must actually work != satisfy inept preconceived notions.
mircea_popescu: there's never going to be security that "actually works" in the sense of bringing you santa back.
dub: sorry but you're the one talking in fairy tales
mircea_popescu: so i suppose we leave it at that.
dub: magical kingdoms where the libertarian ideal is upheld
jurov: pffft not even libertarian ideals.. rule of law.
dub: 'rule of law' is a libertard dream
dub: there has been no such thing for quite some time now
mircea_popescu: i suppose the courts look a lot different if you regard them from the priviledged end than from the business end.
jurov: ^let this be put into public record.
dub: I suppose its easy to be optimistic
dub: good luck for then you actually need to test it
dub: when*
mircea_popescu: dub you know, i'm probably the only one here with actual experience at successfully suing governments. what's easy is to elevate one's not particularly relevant experience to some sort of end-all story of the world.
dub: yeah well theres governments and theres governments
mircea_popescu: nevertheless.
dexX7: now that this is out - for what did you sue them?
mircea_popescu: most notably we had a dispute as to whether a foreign worker's qualifications are to be evaluated by its employer or the bureaucrats.
dub: evaluated?
mircea_popescu: yeah, something like, "I want to hire X guy, give him a work permit". "we won't, because X guy could be replaced by local labor" "stfu"
dub: ah
mircea_popescu: well their idea is something like... oh computer programming ? sure, we got this guy, he took a six months java course.
mircea_popescu: computers, pizza ovens, trucks, what's the big difference.
dub: I was thinking more 'Yes that is a fantastic ass, we have nothing of that calibre locally, work visa granted'
mircea_popescu: i never had trouble importing ass. that's easy to explain.
mircea_popescu: anyway. i ended up getting a court order so extensive they ended up having to a) issue me a special made document, as in, without expiration date and b) modify their regulations.
mircea_popescu: and since that particular crew is petrified of crazy mp.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B] [XBOND] 158 @ 0.0012 = 0.1896 BTC [+]
chsados: are the bitches in romania sexy?
mircea_popescu: ;;google gradina edenului nsfw
gribble: Olariu Ionela | Facebook: <https://www.facebook.com/olariu.ionela.9>; Radu Dumitru Daniel | Facebook: <https://www.facebook.com/radu.dumitrudaniel>
dub: fwiw I have been before the courts as more than defendant :)
ozbot: NSFW Gradina Edenului pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
kakobrekla: so, the most read article of all trilema is trilema premium?
mircea_popescu: actually the most read article is "cum se suge pula", a cocksucking guide.
kakobrekla: mebbe you should do it in english too
mircea_popescu: yeh one of these days.
fractal: massive $150 breakout happning. huge volume on gox. going to hit $200 this month.
kakobrekla: ;;ticker
gribble: MtGox BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 146.15000, Best ask: 147.00000, Bid-ask spread: 0.85000, Last trade: 146.15000, 24 hour volume: 14320.08849133, 24 hour low: 141.28508, 24 hour high: 147.00000, 24 hour vwap: 144.48451
kakobrekla: i dont mind
mircea_popescu: so that's why i was selling calls yest
fractal: selling calls? you will get CRUSHED.... we're heading to $250 by dec
zoinky: quite a wild prediction fractal
kakobrekla: fractal you should put some money on some bbet
fractal: its guaranteed -- SR is out of the picture now -- china volume just overtook all USD volume.... massive buying coming in
fractal: wheres the BBET bet? i'll put down 100 BTC now...
mircea_popescu: fractal i don't have a choice, im passive in the matter.
mircea_popescu: Oct 11 21:39:07 <assbot>[MPEX] [O] [O.USD.C131T] 685 @ 0.32277052 = 221.0978 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2300 @ 0.00084985 = 1.9547 BTC [+]
zoinky: 100 btc on $250 by dec?
fractal: all the idiots saying that bitcoin only has value because of SR --- i've been saying its not true for 2 years... now i am vindicated. i will be proven right again as we hit $250 this year once more
carly_: can you name a site where you can play against each other different games for bitcoins? I dont mean a casino or gambling site. Just playing against each other in different pc games
zoinky: yeah the people in this channel are always saying SR is all bitcoin's value...
kakobrekla: well there isnt one of 250 but you have a 200 bet
mircea_popescu: fractal 2 years ? wut ? lol
ozbot: BitBet - Bitcoin price to rise above $200 before the end of 2013
zoinky: which exchange is that bet for
fractal: kako: wow. thats EASY MONEY!
fractal: i'm getting on that shit right now. free BTC.
kakobrekla: zoinky, mtgox, its in the link
fractal: lolz. what n00bz betting NO... idiots
turbo_ac100: o_O I just noticed http://bitbet.us/bet/555/difficulty-to-continue-increasing-by-over-20/ is ambiguous. "Each BTC network difficulty change as reported by gribble before the end of January 2014 will be an increase of more than 20% over the last. "
mircea_popescu: mtgox should be easier, they';ve always been higher.
mircea_popescu: turbo_ac100 what's the ambiguity ?
fractal: 10BTC pays out 14 -- 40% , but 100BTC pays out 104 -- 4% . lol
zoinky: kakobrekla, i did a search for mtgox on the page and all i see is for another bet
fractal: and i have to wait 10 weeks.... i'm better off buying futures at ICBIT.se instead of making that gamble at BitBet!!
mircea_popescu: lol mkay. glwt.
turbo_ac100: "the last" doesn't refer to the last increase, i.e. 20% -> 24 % and so on but rather "the last" difficulty as in ;;diffchange will be > 20%
kakobrekla: and 1 btc pays 2 btc
jurov: fractal: you can buy the same calls on mpex
fractal: jurov: MPEX? you mean that useless site with ZERO volume because MP refuses to let new users join without paying 40BTC??? idiotic.
mircea_popescu: each [...] over the last.
mircea_popescu: seems fine.
fractal: no offence MP...
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5900 @ 0.00085465 = 5.0424 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: you are aware that the only people actually trading the exchange rate traded it there, yest.
fractal: but you'd make more money with no signup fees
mircea_popescu: for all your talk of doing w/e on random bucket shops.
jurov: fractal: there's a broker, you are kicking into open doors
fractal: ICBIT.se is legitimate and been up for 2 years, works great... and they're doing a lot of volume these days.... you'll eventually be surpassed unless you drop signup fees
turbo_ac100: mircea_popescu, so it's diffchange 20%, next diffchange will have to be 20%*1.2=24% and so on, right?
mircea_popescu: dude, you've been saying whatever for two years, get out. link or gtfo.
fractal: jurov: broker == default risk
jurov: what? you think coinbr is short and naked?
mircea_popescu: turbo_ac100 the diffs must follow the curve x, 1.2x, 1.44x, 1.728x etc
jurov: ;;calc 20*1.2
jurov: ;;calc 20*1.2*1.2
gribble: 28.8
jurov: etc
fractal: [Oct 1 2012 01:52] <fractal> hey guys, I think 2013 is the year of bitcoin, we'll probably hit $100, maybe $250.
fractal: ^^ real logs
mircea_popescu: so two years in the oct 1 - oct 13 interval ?
turbo_ac100: meh. stupid bet... gonna have to cancel that...
arij: bitfunder, havelock, mpex, cryptostocks.. did i miss any
fractal: MP, the fact that 1 year wasn't 2 years is just a trivial detail
kakobrekla: if you list cryptostocks you missed another 3 or so
arij: ?
fractal: point is, i'm a genius.... we'll hit $250 by december
fractal: for sure
arij: thats all i got.. what are the others?
kakobrekla: theres like pico stocks and something 123.com chinese thingy or something and therock exchange
kakobrekla: maybe more
arij: ah pico
arij: thats right
mircea_popescu: ;;google "hey guys, I think 2013 is the year of bitcoin, we'll probably hit $100, maybe $250"
gribble: Bitcoin Hits New Record, Crosses $250 | Zero Hedge: <http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-04-10/bitcoin-hits-new-record-crosses-250>; Hi. I am from the future. Thanks Bitcoin! : Bitcoin - Reddit: <http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1b6x0l/hi_i_am_from_the_future_thanks_bitcoin/>; Bitcoin Exchange Scam – Bitcoins Are Now Worthless | NERDr.com: <http://nerdr.com/bitcoin- (1 more message)
fractal: http://imgur.com/jgwRMJo -- this is why $250 is guaranteed before the end of the year -- all hail CHINA!!
mircea_popescu: wasn;'t there some cheapo clone of mpex at some point ?
ozbot: China will be leading the next run up... - Imgur
mircea_popescu: like, same css glory and everything ? some dood on the forum made it cause he was insulted by mpoe-pr
fractal: what channel is most appropriate for trading?
mircea_popescu: in your case, probably #labcoin.
fractal: whats labcoin? sounds like a scam
mircea_popescu: well... genius ppl congregate there.
fractal: i'm such a genius that I can tell scams just by the name of the company
fractal: #bitcoin-geniuses
mircea_popescu: totally.
fractal: i'm ops in #bitcoin-geniuses.
dexX7: http://imgur.com/jgwRMJo this reddit picture is so stupid.. just link to some useful statistics pls
ozbot: China will be leading the next run up... - Imgur
fractal: dexx7: bitcoincharts.com 24 hr
dexX7: yes, for example
zoinky: the poster put up a spreadsheet of all the data
mircea_popescu: yes yes, chinese ppl are buying bitcoin.
ozbot: Taste for Makers
ozbot: NSFW Gradina Edenului pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
mircea_popescu: selling the girls downriver.
dexX7: lol
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5800 @ 0.00084799 = 4.9183 BTC [-] {3}
fractal: difficulty 250,000,000 next jump? i told eveyrone this would happen. so many idiots buying mining eqiupment and losing money..... fuck. im so smart. honestly... fuck.
jurov: ;;bc,stats
gribble: Current Blocks: 263445 | Current Difficulty: 1.8928124928103292E8 | Next Difficulty At Block: 264095 | Next Difficulty In: 650 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 days, 21 hours, 38 minutes, and 34 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 244476073.369 | Estimated Percent Change: 29.16022
jurov: fractal so what?
fractal: so, nobody listened to me and lost money.... now I will charge for my consulting services since my track record is perfect
mircea_popescu: you're a loony.
fractal: 10BTC for 1 month of advice.... correspondance by mail only
fractal: 100BTC for phone number... msg me
jurov: fractal: i'll pay you even 100btc... but only after it turns out correctly
fractal: jurov, no problem. what do you want to know?
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HIM] 4 @ 0.05032501 = 0.2013 BTC [-] {2}
jurov: nm that was rather dumb idea
fractal: Avalon batch 2's going for $3K on ebay... pretty funny, they were $30,000 a few months ago.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HIM] 2 @ 0.05030001 = 0.1006 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 92 @ 0.00731162 = 0.6727 BTC [-] {4}
fractal: so , they're worth $1,500 or less.... i'll pay $500 for them. msg me
mircea_popescu: jurov lol
fractal: man, those poor bastards who haven't got their BFL singles yet...
fractal: meanwhile LTC mining holding up for now,,, but dropping slowly to zero
thestringpuller: what is this btc-china?
dub: this is btc-spaaarta
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller some chinese based exchange.
thestringpuller: The greatest heist in the world: "Stealing Chinese gold from an American depository."
ozbot: [ANN] UK Bitcoin Exchange
kakobrekla: broken as fuck.
mircea_popescu: they're incorporated in a residential area ?!
fractal: china is now more important then usa when it comes to bitcoin
fractal: majority of volume is now on chineese exchanges
mircea_popescu: fractal yes yes. you could have read all about it on trilema a while back. you genius you.
dub: * is more important than murica outside storing homeless bitcoin developers
mircea_popescu: incorporated in feb, guy made acct in march, name changed in august
mircea_popescu: statement of capital shows jack shit and the prices there are in the 50k range, to own. they rent.
fractal: MP , do you claim your geniuseness exceeds mine?? that is quite the claim.
fractal: bitcoin $250 this year. i'll be back dec 31 to confirm.
kakobrekla: place 100btc and you dont have to come back
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 125 @ 0.00702865 = 0.8786 BTC [-] {8}
zoinky: lol
mircea_popescu: i hope this one has better sauna security.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.76000068 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HIM] 6 @ 0.05020666 = 0.3012 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HIM] 8 @ 0.0502 = 0.4016 BTC [-]
turbo_ac100: is there a fancy visualisation of address dependencies? Blockchain explorer with added graphics bling?
ozbot: [BTC-TC] Virtual Community Exchange [WINDING DOWN]
mircea_popescu: epic shit.
mircea_popescu: turbo_ac100 not afaik.
turbo_ac100: IPO...
mircea_popescu: go for it.
mircea_popescu: so are we yet at the realisation that btct may be slightly undercapitalised or not quite ?
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu did you make a deal with the bitvps guys?
thestringpuller: vis-a-vis Namworld the Canadian
mircea_popescu: um not afaik ?
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.76000068 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.76000068 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B] [XBOND] 416 @ 0.0012 = 0.4992 BTC [+]
dub: not sure trotting out Bitcoin Oz to belittle is necessary
dub: might want to suggest she uses a slighty sturdier strawman
mircea_popescu: what, the guy that was selling glbse stocks is no good ?!?!11?
ozbot: [SolarWind , A Bitcoin Mining Company] 100TH/s Mining Farm - Official Thread
kakobrekla: aint that cute
kakobrekla: a company on a usb stick.
dub: also the guy outed as having stabbed old ladies to death in a drunken rampage
dub: haha wtf kakobrekla
mircea_popescu: dub and a whole lot moar.
benkay: dahahahaha there's a trilema premium!?
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.76000071 BTC [+]
Kleeck_: Joel David Moore on the cost of clothes in the Matrix: http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1oddx9/actor_joel_david_moore_of_avatar_and_cbgb_here_im/ccr0cuh?context=3
kakobrekla: o lmao
kakobrekla: >Apparently the people at Bitstamp aren't just thieves, they're incompetent too. If you signed up for API access back when they were using account passwords for API authentication (i.e. before "API keys") you can still withdraw your BTC via the "old" API from an unverified account. Not sure if this works for the new API too (never used it).
Kleeck_: Classy.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 6 @ 0.76000068 = 4.56 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 8 @ 0.75070009 = 6.0056 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 30 @ 0.00731 = 0.2193 BTC [+]
dub: ;;ticker --market all
gribble: MtGox BTCUSD last: 149.89933, vol: 20208.85106376 | Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 136.40, vol: 17746.10968874 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 130.55, vol: 5923.3344 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 136.7, vol: 3206.8885688 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 133.91, vol: 1091.19765252 | Volume-weighted last average: 141.306956913
dub: $250 by tuesday!
Namworld: No, that's not exaggerated enough.
Namworld: $2'500'000 by tuesday!
pankkake: to the moons!
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 2 @ 0.73000221 = 1.46 BTC [-]
dub: ;;asks 250
gribble: There are currently 27014.092 bitcoins offered at or under 250.0 USD, worth 4810231.56614 USD in total. | Data vintage: 0.0027 seconds
nubbins`: there's a 1000 BTC bid @ $130 on virtex right now, :0
pankkake: CAD?
nubbins`: =125.4 USD
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 200 @ 0.007 = 1.4 BTC [-] {2}
nubbins`: i don't think i've seen that size of a buy order before
pankkake: why do canadians use the $! they're worse than altcoins
pankkake: I guess the non-crash after silk road is making people more confident
nubbins`: who knows
nubbins`: i mistrust BTC > 100 USD
pankkake: hehe, me too. and since I only want to buy, I don't want it to go up that much :)
dub: because moosecock eh
nubbins`: i think the word "dollar" is german in origin
kakobrekla: id buy more
kakobrekla: but id need to sell btc for that in the first place
kakobrekla: so i wont
pankkake: lucky you
nubbins`: relax, it's everyone cashing out their AM profits
pankkake: well, I'm still richer in BTC
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