Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2019-02-01 | 2019-02-03 → ↓
BingoBoingo: !!invoice Maduro 5 propaganda
BingoBoingo: !!v EC9606ACA7C45DC2160853083508FC6C211DFC375D53D434CD7CA2CD48BE55DF
mircea_popescu: i dunno how can possibly take us "legal system" in any sort of seriousness.
mircea_popescu: for ~same money, ouija board astronomy &c.
asciilifeform: meanwhile, even in heathendom : http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/wv5Om/?raw=true >> '...the ideology of cryptography preaches the exact opposite: never do custom cryptography, always use the standard one, approved by the experts who know better than you... ...At this point, tens of thousands of cryptanalysts had ten years to compromise four algorithms, designed by less than dozen experts. The official mantra to use these four is part of t
asciilifeform: he power equation mandating uniformity of the protective gear, and is permeating both academia and the industry...'
asciilifeform: '... Should everyone design their own ciphers, millions of companies and individuals designing their own terribly weak ciphers, new one every year? There is no automated way to cryptanalyse even naively weak ciphers (and many would make not so naive ones.) Tens of thousands of cryptanalysts cannot begin to chip away even at the weak security of millions of new custom and unpublished ciphers every year. First they would have to figure
asciilifeform: out what is the cipher, and then break it. It takes time, even if it is a variant of ROT-13. What would happen is leveling of the playing field, engaging brains against brains, on the scale that cryptanalysis cannot keep up with.'
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-02#1891513 << was dead letter already in early '80s, when it was Officially proclaimed that all sortsa places where usaschwitz inmates spend good % of their time ( car, train, street, pub, etc ) are 'exempt'
a111: Logged on 2019-02-02 04:50 mats: also, 'The Supreme Court’s decision in Herring v. [U.S.] authorizes police to defeat the Fourth Amendment’s protections through a process we call evidence laundering [...] when one police officer makes a constitutional mistake when gathering evidence and then passes that evidence along to a second officer, who develops it further and then delivers it to prosecutor' https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2558737
asciilifeform: meanwhile, in sneak previews,
asciilifeform: !!up pehbot
deedbot: pehbot voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: !A .3 $x .2 $y xy* #
pehbot: asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
asciilifeform: hrm, loox like pehbot will need fix, gotta remove filter for previously-undefined ops
asciilifeform: err, nm,
asciilifeform: !A .3 $x .2 $y xy* _#
pehbot: asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000006
asciilifeform: there we go.
asciilifeform: !A .3 $x .2 $y xyR* #
pehbot: asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000006
asciilifeform: ^ equiv.
shinohai: Good morning asciilifeform
asciilifeform: guten morgen shinohai
asciilifeform: shinohai: how goes ?
shinohai: Not bad, just noticed last nite ave1's site back up so in process of building musl gnat today then on to revisiting ffa stuffs
asciilifeform: shinohai: where didja leave off ? ( or starting at ch1 ? )
shinohai: I was at ch. 9, but decided to go back to start and redo all, can't hurt
asciilifeform: defo never hurts.
shinohai: I was somehwere in the "Exiting Egypt" part
asciilifeform: shinohai: rewalking the thing always does you some good, imho.
asciilifeform: fwiw i regularly reread own series.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it's not like the republic is ~avoidable~.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: no moar than arithmetic.
asciilifeform: ( dun keep some folx from tryin'... )
mircea_popescu: all pretense to the contrary go whichever way it will ; the end result of the end of "industrial revolution" and the delusional hallucinations of the romantic 1800s is precisely what you'd expect -- ye olde villein, his wife impregnated by the lord of the manor who permits him to live on.
mircea_popescu: i meant, in terms of ~social organisation~.
a111: Logged on 2019-01-29 07:00 mircea_popescu: in other words, it's perfectly fucking clear ~what exactly~ the talking cunthead dun like about venezuela, and the world in general.
mircea_popescu: there's no fucking space in the future for "choice" nor for "human dignity" understood as anything but the dignity of the precious few, and on in this vein.
mircea_popescu: the amateur hour is at an end.
mircea_popescu: the only important part here, is that the item you quote FAILS to reference the proper term of art. and we are EXACTLY back to http://trilema.com/2013/bitcoin-prices-bitcoin-inflexibility/#selection-113.0-113.557 problem :
asciilifeform: aint even clear to me that there ~was~ an 'amateur hour'. only thing there was , was some unusually baroque buluceala re who gets to 'precious few'
mircea_popescu: either the world at large accepts #trilema and submits ; or else comes up with "its own" as if that were possible and so on.
mircea_popescu: failure or success in outreach, such as pizarro, is a larger factor than anything to do with the world, in that sense.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there evidently was an amateur hour, proof being the concept of "wedding", uniting one man and one woman in some sort of equal relationship.
mircea_popescu: the only way wedding can work, is uniting the master's concubine with the vassal. "you can only have one", ie, only one word, and only one honor.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i can only suppose that this type of org algo stuck around in europistan cuz ultimately was cheaper way to run the agri-gulag than the alt variants
mircea_popescu: nah. there was a brief window during which amateur efforts actually paid enough to make them competitive.
mircea_popescu: let's call it "nature took a kind turn"
asciilifeform not domain expert in running gulag, but sees it as obv that in past , some carrot/stick algos were competitive, in fyootoor -- other, diff ones win
asciilifeform: the variant where 'buncha d00dz get 1000 calories/diem and cut trees with extra 200 cal as bonus for top 10%' was tried, ended up short of +ev ( berzin -- was shot, recall )
mircea_popescu: this isn't in the slightest what's discussed here.
mircea_popescu: you take a view of man as spherical-chicken-in-vacuum, which is at best naive.
mircea_popescu: the only fundamental quality of man is that man can be happy in any circumstance.
asciilifeform: the variant mircea_popescu painted, where 'feed 99%+ of males to pigs at birth, and the rest program robots and fuck harem' requires automation that i suspect aint happenin'.
mircea_popescu: happening already.
mircea_popescu: consider a simple case : sovok consisted of men in positions of feudal power (such as boss of factory, chief of an office, whatever) fucking the prettier "married" women in their charge.
asciilifeform: i'd like to know where. cuz errywhere i've been, when you want e.g. iron staircase built, what comes is a gang of 20 d00dz with welding torches, and not robot.
mircea_popescu: because, obviously, nobody wanted to be stuck with the end results of the hussies' fertility.
mircea_popescu: that they were married already, to some loser, was the best possible quality a horny 20something could bring to the table.
mircea_popescu: this is simpy naive reconstruction of the feudal system from the other end.
mircea_popescu: in more settled times, the chief of the office has a harem already, and to work in there you aspire to... ~marry one~.
asciilifeform: '20s-'50s sovok. then they figured out how to bake synth progesterone etc.
mircea_popescu: which is a process that speaks ~as to your status~, not as to her.
mircea_popescu: ie, EXACTLY what marriage speaks to in ussovok.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform my point being specifically, that it IS ALREADY HAPPENING.
mircea_popescu: and yes, on occasion "new discovery -- hides this corner, voila children, whole thing gone!! believe!!!"
mircea_popescu: anyone who wants to believe is welcome to. i... i have serious problems with works of fiction, as the logs no doubt attest.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: plox to expand on how 'corner' is 'hidden', rather than cut
mircea_popescu: suppose you're an old curmudgeon.
asciilifeform supposes
mircea_popescu: suppose you live somewhere where there grow kids (specifically, like trees, because that's how it goes -- nobody cares).
mircea_popescu: suppose they bother you.
mircea_popescu: so one day, when they kick their football into your window, you, instead of giving it back (as trees, before), you... you... what do you do ? TEAR IT UP!!! is that it ?
mircea_popescu: please expand on how the corner was hidden rather than cut.
mircea_popescu: because you'd have to be an exceptionally unwordly curmudgeon to imagine you've cut anything out of this fucking worl.
mircea_popescu: what, with scissors ?
asciilifeform: i.e. problem of 'what to do with excess meat' was transformed into 'who gets stuck with the work of occasionally baking new meat' ?
asciilifeform: sorta how no moar horse exhaust in nyc, but nao gaseous n2o instead ?
mircea_popescu: not even. rather, that they invented the pill doesn't mean much changes, because the ~pretense~ was that "they're fucking your wife because they don't feel like raising her children". the TRUTH was that "the only possible way human affairs are settled is -- boss has a harem, you wish to work for boss so therefore marry one of his whores".
mircea_popescu: "but i found her before he did, and i told her she's not a whore before she was". "yes, imperfect communication systems in olde sovoke"
asciilifeform: if anyffin it seems muchly too generous, for erry inmate to get personal whore
mircea_popescu: meanwhile, the ~only~ possible meaning of marriage is as a https://teresafritschi.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/vassal-paying-homage-1.jpg ceremony.
mircea_popescu: and this is how it worked, historically, too. contrary to loud pretense claiming otherwise, marriage created a pleb's reinterpretation of ye olde vasselage between an old man and a young'un.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you're thinking of the wrong end again, lol. lord possibly wants a dozen or a grosse concubines, and one or a dozen knaves. so he marries some of the girls off. "but what are all the OTHER boys to do ???" "keks."
asciilifeform: the others feed the crows, what
mircea_popescu: from "x is the only possible function of y" dun follow that y will ever even happen, yes.
mircea_popescu: (notice, for the noob, that the woman ~is actually depicted~ in the above illustration. she happens to be quadripedal, but as #metoo taught you, this shouldn't matter IN FAIRNESS.)
mircea_popescu: ninth fucking century "illumination".
mircea_popescu: "o no mp, that was the knight's own horse, which he... founded it." "i'm sure. cuz lotta loose horses about, on the king's lands."
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: that'd be moar red army ( stalin issues you a mount ) than euro-knight ( dun even qualify unless you bring yer own ) neh
mircea_popescu: "yer own".
mircea_popescu: yer own in what sense ?
mircea_popescu: don't tell me "grew on land king gave you" lest i fall over.
asciilifeform: where else
mircea_popescu: so then.
mircea_popescu: yes, red army took all morons, catastrophic desperation, not encountered in europe since long before 900ad. nevertheless.
asciilifeform: king issues you fief tho, not chix ( yer expected to grow these )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform except, of course, if it's any kind of magical horse, with powers. then daddy gives, yes ?
asciilifeform: incidentally as i recall mircea_popescu dunlike elaborate fictions, and kingship is precisely that ( who was 'king' in 1920s china ? can answer this q in o(1) ? )
mircea_popescu: somehow the stories fat frumos don't seem to include marriage by fruit of his labours "on the field". because you can't spank your own monkey into a wife anymore than you can douchebag your way into #trilema or pull yourself to moon by britches.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i don't believe there's necessarily an answer at all, let alone in o(1).
mircea_popescu: who was the me in all the groups of girlies before i showed up ? "a calling metaphysical", who cares.
asciilifeform: so not as simple as 'king issues' ( i'm aware that church-besotted europistan tried heroically to maintain the fiction, but was quite porous )
mircea_popescu: "my bones can feel the absence though my eyes can't perceive the difference"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform imo also approached from wrong end, "here's king, story follows".
mircea_popescu: people in all times and places have this unquenchable thirst for the cheap yet dysfunctional. the whole king-fiction of medieval europe is chinesium before china were even invented by the brits.
mircea_popescu: (yes, china's AN EUROPEAN INVENTION, not some sort of "itself". wut fucking itself.)
asciilifeform: eh the cn folx went through what, 3? 4? cycles of warlords/unification/goldenage/sclerosis/pantsuit/collapse before euros got to'em
mircea_popescu: or so they claim.
mircea_popescu: i suspect it's a lot like drafted actor going, "what, i died three thousand dozen times on broadway stages before tonight". "yes, but you weren't serious about it."
asciilifeform: difficult to conclusively adjudicate the claim w/out time machine, they had this habit of rm -rf / erry time they cycled
mircea_popescu: kinda like how the magic acre goes, tho. do you know how many times it was said in broadway sheets, "this performance is eternal" ? can you recount any of them ?
mircea_popescu: MULTIPLE TIMES A FUCKING SEASON. each fucking season. like in 1919. can you even say who was the top actress of the stage, 1919 ?
asciilifeform prolly the last one to ask, can't answer q for ~this~ yr much less 1919
mircea_popescu: produce me a list of all the actresses of whom it was said "eternal performance" in any theatrical season of your choice, before ww2 started, sau.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so if you don't credit these actresses a real history, why do you credit china a real history ?
mircea_popescu: (i'm not even proposing it can't be so credited ; i just think the question can't be handwaved.)
mircea_popescu: and yes, of course it goes straight to the core of what nationalism ~is~, very much not "a concept we no longer need" as various low level slash "moderate" socialists propose.
mircea_popescu: very much fucking needed, because otherwise how to answer ?
asciilifeform: it can't be handwaved. but funnily enuff, i credit the surviving frags largely on acct of their ~incoherence~ . a good fudge job produces ~coherent~ crapola.
mircea_popescu: in any case, the notice's inescapable, that "china -- real history because real nation, just like us ; actresses, not." a lot hangs on that "just like us".
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not necessarily, which is why the "musical revolution" of post great war. "atonal", right, you know it must be real music because it's not the tedious curliqued post-post-mozart nonsense.
asciilifeform: there was a thread coupla yrs ago where discussed how in modern cn archaeologists are kept ~out~ of anywhere with potentially buried readable goodies, on acct of modern pekin specifically trying for sov-style 'coherent history' crapola
asciilifeform: and dug up goodies have habit of blowing holes in same
mircea_popescu: shall i quote 1880s to you ? here : "The room was a long and lofty one, furnished in the stern uncompromising style of the Mahogany Age, now supplanted by the later fashions of decoration which, in their outset original and artistic, seem fairly on the way to become as meaningless and conventional."
mircea_popescu: "artistic" as opposed to "conventional" in much the same way you propose "authentic" oppose "coherent". but mind for a second -- if your army's based on the enemy, you have no army at all, yes ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'just like us' is not an implied hypothesis ( if to take cn at face value, they pissed on the electric fence 3, 4 times, europistan , 1-2 )
mircea_popescu: but they did it ~like us~, is the proposal.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-13 16:20 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-12#1769922 << "You suddenly see that Shakespear, with all his flashes and divinations, never understood virtue and courage, never conceived how any man who was not a fool could, like Bunyan’s hero, look back from the brink of the river of death over the strife and labor of his pilgrimage, and say 'yet I do not repent me'; or, with the panache of a millionaire, bequeath 'my sword to him that sh
mircea_popescu: shakespeare's chinese in shaw's view, to render the matter in this discussion's terminology.
mircea_popescu: all distinction's arbitrary, granted. yet what do you distinguish, and what do you distinguish it from ?
asciilifeform: i'm suspecting an ~absence~ of a distinction, rather than a distinction. i.e. they eat an' shit just like in europistan, and they also complexity-collapse.
mircea_popescu: now, how's "i do not repent me" square with the "i do repent what archeology seems to show"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there's no question that cowardice, stupidty and indignity are countryless.
mircea_popescu: so yes, in the sense of the shittiest parts, they, just like us, and like everyone ever was or ever could be.
asciilifeform: the notion that civilizations live , age, die, dun strike me as at all outrageous. possibly the only solidly known fact about'em , in fact.
asciilifeform: the courageous conqueror's sons are lazy fucks, piss away empire, new conquerors come an' GC it, and while(1).
asciilifeform: and it dun strike me as somehow outlandish that in cn they've played the tape 3-4 times, while in europistan 1-2.
asciilifeform: and not only in cn.
asciilifeform: iirc somebody dug up that collapse of persia even had the 'atonal music' lulz.
mircea_popescu: it dun persuade me.
asciilifeform: it is difficult to find persuasive thread in ancient histories w/out time machine.
mircea_popescu: but consider -- the notion that objects "live, age, die" also dun strike you ?
mircea_popescu: what else. planets, too, stars also, everything ? what's the use of this unviersally applicable model, precisely ?
mircea_popescu: "it broadly works" "yes, it does. you know what else broadly works ? everything else children do to coo themselves to sleep"
asciilifeform: recall the continental drift wanks ?
mircea_popescu: in short, i don't mean that it dun persuade me "it's the case". it dun persuade me it's worth my time as a model.
asciilifeform: ( for n00bz : nobody has ever measured a movement of a continental plate directly, and nobody will. but it's the only model that even starts to make sense of various minerological strata distributions. and so there it is. )
asciilifeform: whether 'is this model worth my time' is q that only you can answr for self. to many folx, euler's model of distribution of primes 'aint worth time', to others -- worth
asciilifeform: trigonometry was widely 'coo to sleep' until artillery.
asciilifeform: dist. of primes -- until rsa. and so on.
mircea_popescu: now give me some examples outside of math.
asciilifeform: why not the typical example, where romans 'hey, phunphakt, some rocks emit flammable black piss'
mircea_popescu: you don't perceive the difference between the things we're discussing ?
asciilifeform: or where greeks knew of magnet, also as useless curio
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: was addressing 'broadly works'
mircea_popescu: there's no objective truth'll get you into a girl's hotpants. you realise this ?
mircea_popescu: yes, but you were adressing it by yourself in the closet.
mircea_popescu: address it out in teh open, talk of models for human society not of models for reality.
asciilifeform: the only 1 i had in mind in thrd was 'civilizations build up & then collapse', which is closest thing i know of to 'models of society' with any support whatsoever
mircea_popescu: you understand this, if i and you are florentines, and you teach me the facts of life, there's a very fundamental difference between "a. get boat ; b. use lodestone, navigate ; c. find curio ; d. bring back home. e. trade for lots of dough and good things, including a desdemona ; f. strangle her for being a whore" whether i say "i don't know this lodestone model be worth my time" or i say "i dunno this strangling be worth my
asciilifeform: what i thought was mircea_popescu's objection, is 'this model dun ~do~ anyffin useful'
asciilifeform: i.e. you can't use it to aim a cannon, or navigate, etc
mircea_popescu: objection was that it doesn't distinguish between anything and anything, not moreso than, at the most, between "the set of things about which i could be arsed to think the five minues that;d produce support for it and the set of things i wasn't yet so arsed"
mircea_popescu: this is a purely subjective distinction.
mircea_popescu: the objection is that in being an universally arguable, it therefore is an universal waste of time.
asciilifeform: let's hear about the excluded counters ? e.g. is there a dynasty still going somewhere for 1000y that never enhabsburgated into idiocy ?
mircea_popescu: well, this'll quickly devolve into semantics. how would we establish what passes ?
asciilifeform: i can picture mircea_popescu , living in the time of harvey , 'yer model of blood circulation is nonsense, you say erryone has veins, arteries, heart, but for all you know the cynocephali in africa dun have any such thing'
mircea_popescu: consider the armenians ; or the venetians. both encountered the exact same problem (not invented by them, either) : bad demographic breakdown. do you know for a fact the machined-down zulus had "enhabsburgated" ? there is such thing as "cut down in prime", why not.
mircea_popescu: at which you'll say that "sure, the model of life includes this also" and i'll congratulate you on your great model and move on.
mircea_popescu: in exchange i'll give you this great tool : math is a great model for math. because whenever math works, math works, and also -- when doesn't... doesn't.
asciilifeform: 'oak lives 200y' 'nonsense, i just cut down 1 after month'
asciilifeform: oh hey are we replaying the 'guts' thread with switched chairs ?
mircea_popescu: all hail to me, the discoverer of the last word in math.
a111: Logged on 2018-12-28 17:03 asciilifeform: with guts.
mircea_popescu: all hail to me, the discoverer of the last word in math.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform how are the chairs reversed ?
asciilifeform: well for instance, i'm getting to hear a 'this model may be good bedtime story, and sorta hangs together, but ultimately tells you nuffin actionable' from the (apparently) last fella who runs freud model
asciilifeform: re reversed -- iirc in prev thread , went mircea_popescu : 'justify this constant logically!' a: 'not errything can be justified, sometimes yer stuck using guts!'
a111: Logged on 2019-02-02 18:18 mircea_popescu: there's no objective truth'll get you into a girl's hotpants. you realise this ?
mircea_popescu: the discussion went "oh, you're saying it tells you nothing actionable ?" "no, i'm saying it doesn't distinguish anything" "oh, so you're saying it tells you nothing actionable"
mircea_popescu: wtf am i to do ?
mircea_popescu: the hotpants discussion was when you were trying to pass me chickens for cows.
mircea_popescu: you can't "give examples" as to the welfare of chickens by "accidentally having happened to pick" only cows.
asciilifeform: possibly i'm thick, but i read 'fails to distinguish' as 'tautological', i.e. you can flip the bits and get equally 'good bedtime' model
mircea_popescu: that i didn't permit that proposed transitivity, and i explained it in terms of hotpants, doth not mean anything about what we were discussiong.
mircea_popescu: no dood. fails to distinguish as in, fails to distinguish. the partition it enacts upon the world is into two sets : the set of the items you invited over to play tea time with, and the set of the items you didn't [yet] so invite.
asciilifeform: wat do if set 2 is empty ?
asciilifeform: 'you say multiplication on integers commutes, but whata load of rubbish, somewhere in resplenduminous-land betcha there's 2 where it doesn't' ?
mircea_popescu: so man is this bipedal animal without feathers and with flat nails who's historical existence is the model for all things, stars, continents, societies and any other ideal object ?
mircea_popescu: "even the study of math, mp, note you i said the study not the object studied, flourishes and dies as described by my model!"
asciilifeform: certainly seems to have croaked , neh
mircea_popescu: i don't even disagree! everything ever will match this model!
asciilifeform: and iirc contention was 'earlier men as model for laters' rather than 'man as model for stars'
mircea_popescu: i am unpersuaded "man" as such is the "transnational" universal socialists want it to be.
mircea_popescu: i do not believe european man is model for chinese.
mircea_popescu: i do not believe "the grand truths" of european descent have much import outside of a world seen through european eyes
asciilifeform: possibly not, but imho unless we find that they parachuted from mars, null hypothesis is that they're roughly similar
mircea_popescu: and i do not believe china meaningfully "cycled" because "oh, look, habsburgs!!!"
mircea_popescu: it's the sort of understanding of history of the sort of people who'd rather be done with it than anything else.
mircea_popescu: nothing wrong with "the model", especially if you have no intention of being historian nor any serious interest in history.
mircea_popescu: but "the habsburgs" aren't a fucking item. who, which ? die kaisrin, habsburg ? her mother ? her eldest sister ? her eldest brother ?
mircea_popescu: gimme a break, just because an (unrelated) demented fellow built some great palaces and schonnbrun is well painted dun make some sort of answer to the questions of life.
asciilifeform: how is it that mircea_popescu can discuss 'the socialists' but not say 'which ones', lenin, gorby, or obummer
mircea_popescu: because i offer a unifying criterion!
mircea_popescu: i don't fucking posit, "oh, they were all people, and here's how peopledom goes, on basis of this example i misrecollect"
asciilifeform: still waitin' for the counterexample, of dynasty somewhere that didn't eventually have its arse handed to it by outsiders
mircea_popescu: in fact, hussein bahamas could wake up tomorrow ~and no longer be~ socialist. for the simplest of reasons -- no longer meeting teh definition. whereas...
a111: Logged on 2019-02-02 18:25 mircea_popescu: consider the armenians ; or the venetians. both encountered the exact same problem (not invented by them, either) : bad demographic breakdown. do you know for a fact the machined-down zulus had "enhabsburgated" ? there is such thing as "cut down in prime", why not.
asciilifeform: there's a contiguous functioning throne in armenia ?! or venice??
asciilifeform: 'demographic breakdown' is entirely acceptable 'why'. but i dun see how it contradicts.
mircea_popescu: what exactly do you mean by this "enhabsburgated" ?
asciilifeform: for that matter, how is zulu's failure to invent the mg to shoot back at brits with, not 'demographic breakdown'
mircea_popescu: seems to me that if i take a flamethrower to a beehive or if the queen bee just fucking dies one morning you'd have DIFFERENT situations. not even then ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in my mind 'habsburg' (or if you insist on pedantic, 'last habsburg') is shorthand for inbreeding and 'king has trouble tying own shoes'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform demographic breakdown is what happened the first time europe nearly got wiped. "oh, you have towns and writing ? cute, here's 10e19 orcs from middle earth."
mircea_popescu: "your technology leverages you 193.446, too bad you're outnumbered 6.023e23"
asciilifeform: so contention is, roughly, 'asteroid dropped' ?
asciilifeform: if we're doing the romans, dun seem to fit ( rome pushed back 10e19 orcs for 400+ yrs, ~then~ started to lose air from tyres )
mircea_popescu: sure, if we're doing the romans dun seem to fit. but we were doing " still waitin' for the counterexample"
mircea_popescu: anyway, it's deeply untrue "kind had trouble tying own shoes". the habsburg empire (to this date a model for wanna-bes, from bahamas' crowd to merkel etc) ended very much by bombsteroid dropping. but other than that, the last emperor franz as the last emperor albert-edward had a lot in common : very socialist outset.
asciilifeform: is mircea_popescu's angle that 'it is pointless to try an' model civilizations, even if you had enuff data to work with, it won't fit in head' ? or that 'this 1 model suxx'
mircea_popescu: did you, incidentally, read up on this tranby croft affair ?
asciilifeform: what was this
mircea_popescu: this was future king going "five twerps in me enturage agreed SO THERE WAS NOTHING I COULD DO" in court of law.
asciilifeform: where was this ? sounds like replay of ludvig of bavaria ?
mircea_popescu: guy liked playing bacarrat. guy was present at a table. others (wjho didn't like, and didn't play) picked a cheater. king... ABDICATED
mircea_popescu: cuz what the fuck do you do, when "dude, get the fuck out, i was there, IF IT HAPPENED I WOULD HAVE SEEN IT" doesn't come out ?
asciilifeform: that was sorta how nick the 2nd abdicated, neh
mircea_popescu: you specifically abdicate, in the exact sense of http://trilema.com/2018/yes-bitch-i-would-bring-it/
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so then, british empire was "enhabsburgated" because albert the dick ornament clearly too dumb to tie own shoes ? or was it asteroided, seeing how, well, the germans fucked them.
asciilifeform: incidentally, the very same chinese had a term for this, 'lost mandate of heaven'
mircea_popescu: not so clear it's for this rathjer than "bad luck with cards", but w/e.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i dunno, when old woman breaks hip, was it the 40y of osteoporosis, or the bathtub that broke it ?
mircea_popescu: that'd depend on the context, now wouldn't it.
mircea_popescu: are we making old woman food rations or bath tubs.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's q resolves to 'do kingdoms suffer equiv of osteoporosis'
mircea_popescu: it's not even clear kingdoms are sufficiently similar to be discussed in those terms.
asciilifeform: possibly not
mircea_popescu: what, just because you use the same word ?
mircea_popescu: this is the fundamental chinese approach, "oh, x=y" randomly everywhere.
asciilifeform: the chinese, as i understand, would have sided with mircea_popescu : 'eh get out, you can't model this'
mircea_popescu: mno, they'd be "oh, rose is bush because in this poem they're used interchangeably".
asciilifeform: it's a fundamentally euro limb to walk on, 'fuck you all, if it dun model it dun exist'
mircea_popescu: much like "chinese have word for this european phenomenon, it's she cow pig had kittens."
asciilifeform: they also have a word for latrine, big fat deal ( or mircea_popescu would contend that 'king who fails to pass his regular kinging litmus' aint a universal item ? )
mircea_popescu: no, i'm just saying the expression is ~constructed~ so as to ~by itself~ provide the universality.
mircea_popescu: if you redefine all words to mean simply "i love you", you will "live" in the most loving world imaginable.
mircea_popescu: ~imaginable~.
asciilifeform: ( incidentally, asciilifeform thinks of 'the chinese' in ~past tense~, afaik the current inhabitants are a continuation of euro thinking, rather than the folx who spun in circles in xyz b.c. )
mircea_popescu: kinda what i was saying, "invented by british".
asciilifeform: ftr they agree
mircea_popescu: seems to me "china" as the mythical beast went to join "egypt". yeah, sure, used to be tall men with elegant noses that invented mapmaking.
mircea_popescu: but now, short men with pig noses that can't use maps.
asciilifeform: ( they have even a 'national humiliation day' as holiday, commemorating defeat in opium war )
mircea_popescu: serves them right, "empress" holy shit.
mircea_popescu: why not painted goat.
asciilifeform: that's the interesting, imho, bit, they agree that 'serves right'
mircea_popescu: "this train is too loud and it priviledges the speed of sound over other speeds much more important to us" ~cixi, 1800s.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform let me tell you a story about regulation.
asciilifeform: i suspect that if the zulu had lived on, through sheer numeric bulk, and caught up to building own maxim mg, they would also have 'national humiliation day' holiday.
asciilifeform likes stories
mircea_popescu: so, whenever some unpleasant shit happens, such as the merchant fleet stepping on a rake, all the merchants in the burg agree : a) that nobody could have predicted it ; thus therefore b) that, individually and personally, none of them could possibly be blamed ; and thus c) some agreement should be made to in the future avoid such unplesantries.
mircea_popescu: generally this takes the refinment of "more general", just for good measure. cuz they're not a bunch of morons, see. women and children and everyone else do well to follow their wise lead!
mircea_popescu: then nature resumes its course, and guess what ? c) turns out to be costly, and getting in the way of business!
mircea_popescu: at which juncture, all teh merchants in the burg ~publicly~ agree it's a bad thing (in general, mind you!) for anything to get in the way of business and therefore clothing the poor naked whores and feeding candy to their crying spawn ;
mircea_popescu: and also privately agree they'll personally be damned if they forward this inhumane and anti-business aggenda "of other [unknown, now] morons".
mircea_popescu: this is the "economic cycle", and it's been playing out since 1800, ie, since these schmuckls got together in a burg and read newspapers.
mircea_popescu: so, to bring it back to the chinos : "they agree it serves them right", of course, of course. do you know why ? because they've seen the adults do it.
asciilifeform: jp 'agreed' even faster, went in <50y from 'zulu' to sinking white devil's gunships from out of direct sight range
mircea_popescu: but, back to the problem, i dunno why i should credit chinese history more than i credit any other imaginary characters history. there's a history of desdemona, you know, as "brought to life" by various gals over the ages and the stages.
asciilifeform: could have instead, i suppose, said 'eh, asteroid' and laid down in ditch to die. but they didnt.
mircea_popescu: didn't ?
mircea_popescu: let's try a different approach here.
asciilifeform: didn't. instead conquered ~all of asia, captured the iron, molybdenum, petro, whole fucking periodic table that dun grow in jp, and nearly put an end to the brit pantsuit zombie, by pretty close score
mircea_popescu: confronted with the unfatomable depths of male diversity (as promised to be unfathomable by http://trilema.com/2017/the-boundless-burden/#selection-195.0-195.18 ), the female herd (and it is always a herd) has precisely two possible avenues open to it : either a) http://trilema.com/2013/whore-strat/ or else b) http://trilema.com/2016/brexit-grexit-departugal-italeave-czechout-finish-oustria-latervia-byegium/#footnote_2_67054
asciilifeform: i'm not even sure which of the 2 boxes one would put jp in -- they copied eurostan to the point that hirohito wore ~same clothes as mircea_popescu is wearing nao
mircea_popescu: i'm not even sure either ; though by the fruits i judge former.
asciilifeform: they went full bore 'whore strat' in 1800s.
mircea_popescu: but anyway, this a-b dispute is the exact substance of distinctions like http://btcbase.org/log/2018-12-11#1879651 ; but that was then, by now... http://btcbase.org/log/2018-12-20#1882391
a111: Logged on 2018-12-11 17:35 mircea_popescu: russkis understood what it is they;'re copying and why. chinese -- neve rdid. in this sense, chinese copied nuke like russians copied ics.
a111: Logged on 2018-12-20 15:46 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform on meditation, that piece makes it plainly evident redditardation is ~generational~, not ideological. there sit the russki kids, who'd be in a fine position to understand the problem. god knows they have much better access to much better priors that readily illuminate it.
mircea_popescu: in any case, besides this distinction, i don't see any way to meaningfully divide people at the scale here contemplated.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> if you redefine all words to mean simply "i love you", you will "live" in the most loving world imaginable. << 2019 is shaping up to be A+++ year for logs
mircea_popescu: thus therefore, venetians long after "enhabsburgated" nevertheless nation, because venetian whores won in the bedroom the "war" charles' soldiers "won" on the field.
mircea_popescu: whereas us barbarian, because never actually raised its head out of its ass to date.
asciilifeform: is inca also still nation cuz their whores 'won in the spanish bedroom' ?
mircea_popescu: in fact, the ur-murican would be this fellow : https://www.gutenberg.org/files/52670/52670-h/52670-h.htm
mircea_popescu: (anyone even read lardner besides fitzgerald, faulker, me an' dorothy parker ?)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: worth read ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform latin america much more nation than spain, that's for damn sure.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform depends how much you like america.
asciilifeform 'likes' good bit but with flipped sign bit
mircea_popescu: well, so maybe you enjoy it then.
mircea_popescu: you know me, alf.
asciilifeform promises to return to $thrd if mircea_popescu wants to put moar petrol in it later; presently will bbl, meat systems
trinque: ave1: ever tried building gnat on a cuntoo? I'm unable, fails with http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/RzU1U/?raw=true
asciilifeform: trinque: configure: error: GNAT is required to build ada << unsurprising , ave1's thing only builds on existing gnat
asciilifeform: trinque: this is common to all gnats (given as gnat is written in ada)
trinque: right, thought his script bootstrapped with binary gnat or something. perhaps I'm mistaken
asciilifeform: it does, but you gotta get the binary one by hand 1st
trinque will give that a shot
mircea_popescu: since we're doing adaisms : it came before the minigame board that we have to make some specific decisions re the threading model.
mircea_popescu: this is of general interest as i don't expect eulora to be the last republican item with threads in it.
asciilifeform: hm interesting, i thought mircea_popescu et al were using the stock ada tasks thing
mircea_popescu: now, it seems to me the case that since there's little benefit in having more threads than cores, it is perfectly acceptable (in this situation) to hold these in an array set as to whatever maximum is reasonable. 32 or 64 or whatever count.
mircea_popescu: this is much cheaper to maintain, code-wise, than some attempt at an otherwise useless "infinity" ; and in the situation where software's not really expected to work "by itself", ie, will always have someone in charge, the cost of "well, if situations change, alter the value and recompile" doesn't seem an overwhelming cost.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i've worked on boxen with 128+ addressable cpu corez, but i dun expect eulora will find itself on these with any frequency
asciilifeform: seems reasonable to pick a constant.
mircea_popescu: this is re the server.
diana_coman: asciilifeform, it IS stock ada tasks, sure; it's not that the q
asciilifeform: diana_coman: he said 'threading model' so i assumed he found some ffa-style fascistic constraint to put on it, lol
mircea_popescu: the whole point being, that if you use threading properly, which is to say -- to implement workers which eat from a queue -- then you will ahve to ~somehow count therm~. that count can be either static or dynamic, and it seems the case that dynamic count's a losing proposition.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: seems to me to be open&shut case, you picka max so you dun have to heapism it
asciilifeform: fixed array , size known at build time, holds all of'em.
mircea_popescu: didn't seem controversial to me either ; but still, now it's also published.
diana_coman: that's pretty much the crux of it: "infinite" comes with cost of heapism baked in, no choice
asciilifeform: if you ever end up putting it on a cray, you change the constant knob & rebuild, is all
mircea_popescu: exactly.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: in ch17 incidentally this comes into play in ffadom.
asciilifeform: !!up pehbot
deedbot: pehbot voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: !A .1 $f
pehbot: asciilifeform: EGGOG: Pos: 4: There is no Register 'f' !
asciilifeform: !A .1 $g g#
pehbot: asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001
asciilifeform: !A .1 $z z#
pehbot: asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001
asciilifeform: ^ there are registers, and exactly 20 of'em, cuz that's how many lowercase letters there are that aint a-f.
asciilifeform: operator can make his ~stack~ as tall as he likes, but 20 regs 4evah. (which incidentally is moar than x86 gives ya)
asciilifeform: (both stack and regs are as wide as the set width, which can be again anyffin you want that fits on yer iron)
asciilifeform: the overall theme being, the exact spatial footprint is known at revv-up, ergo no heapisms.
trinque: asciilifeform: looks like ave1's script will bootstrap for you with a downloaded gnat, but the downloaded gnat wants to live on a glibc system. happily building on such.
trinque: if that's correct, the ebuild for same is going to need to be able to bootstrap with whomever's own external gnat.
mircea_popescu: this unseemliness will have to be resolved at some point
mircea_popescu: speaking of http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-02#1891694 : consider the history of oxford (a place that claims continuity, however ludicrous on the face that claim may be), pre [the latest iteration of] http://trilema.com/2018/wood-impregnated-in-oil-a-metaphor/
a111: Logged on 2019-02-02 18:23 asciilifeform: let's hear about the excluded counters ? e.g. is there a dynasty still going somewhere for 1000y that never enhabsburgated into idiocy ?
mircea_popescu: edmond warre (a man of absolutely no accomplishment, either intellectual or social, but merely an avid ~rowsman~, am activity the deeply ~coerced~ atmosphere at oxford "respected", much in the way sovoks "respected" marx) met pesonally (and sacked) oscar browning (a man of arguably the greatest intellectual, scholarly, and undoubtedly social accomplishment oxford of his time -- and perhaps in all time ever -- knew).
mircea_popescu: of the former, wikipedia says "He took much interest in sport at Eton, and the high standard of rowing which the Eton eights attained was due in a large measure to his coaching. His 45 years' connexion with Eton thoroughly identified him with its traditions and ideals, and, without being remarkable either as a scholar or as a teacher, he wielded a personal influence which has seldom been surpassed. "
mircea_popescu: of the latter, same fond of idiocy offers a restatement of an gallingly anonymous "If the reader is not particular about grammar and style, and is judiciously suspicious of dates, he, or more likely she, will derive both amusement and profit from Mr Browning's pages"
mircea_popescu: (this is engineered to count as an insult, because supposedly, or at least by the lights of deeply inept femtards a la virgina woolfe, this guy "hated women" because wasn't sufficiently something or the other ; and so proposing that women'd benefit off his book is like, totally, oh noes.)
mircea_popescu: now -- does oxford meet "enhabsburgated" bar ?
a111: Logged on 2019-02-02 17:18 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it's not like the republic is ~avoidable~.
feedbot: http://qntra.net/2019/02/dna-testing-firm-gives-client-data-to-fbi/ << Qntra -- DNA Testing Firm Gives Client Data To FBI
mircea_popescu: "CEO Bennett Greenspan claims his desire to [...] live out his fantasy of being Batman without the risk of getting punched" << oh, but how aptly put!
mircea_popescu: now how's this twerp better, or for that matter distinct or distinguishable, from the celebrated http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-30#1890666
a111: Logged on 2019-01-30 01:02 asciilifeform: 'ru-ar' d00d described 'month -- euphoria, then reality sets in when so happens you want a faucet fixed, or tooth capped, or to buy power brick for lappy' etc
asciilifeform: funnily enuff, this one is (standing next to the others) ~honest~ : immediately admits 'we're usg front an' proud, heil clitler' vs the competing shops who pretend, thinly , to somehow not
asciilifeform: ( as if ~any~ db belonging to a usg.corp were or could be anyffin other than a usg.db )
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-02#1891883 << sure does ! ( if mircea_popescu's oxford segment is supposed to support the 'not all ! institutions decay like old stump', i'm not seein' it, seems to support exactly opposite angle.. )
a111: Logged on 2019-02-02 21:35 mircea_popescu: now -- does oxford meet "enhabsburgated" bar ?
mircea_popescu: but it supposedly stands ?
mircea_popescu: what, the idea's habsburgs disappeared really whereas oxford mystically and thus all the same disappeared ?
asciilifeform: stands like england itself
asciilifeform: hollow stump.
mircea_popescu: you can visit oxford today ; it stands with ye olde habsburg court in a situation of pure equivalency, and with abandoned seashells just as much.
asciilifeform: there was an (oxford, incidentally, iirc) prof, who willed his corpse to be stuffed , so could continue to 'attend' meetings
asciilifeform: did not thereby become immortal.
mircea_popescu: yes but this also chisels your stand on existence all the way into nothingness.
asciilifeform: can visit him too tho
mircea_popescu: what then exists, other than by gift of alf himself ?
mircea_popescu: "math" "right."
asciilifeform: fughet maff, iirc thread were re political orgs
asciilifeform: iirc thai royal house is going on 400y
asciilifeform: pretty good horse in that glue factory.
asciilifeform: ( and still unrotted by 'constitutionalism' etc )
mircea_popescu: you mean the idle schmuck that had a topless wife for an occasion once and they all threw a ridoinculous fit ?
mircea_popescu: dun tell me this became meanwhile your examplar of non-habsburgated.
asciilifeform: why this king 'idle schmuck' but other - not ?
mircea_popescu: which other ?
a111: Logged on 2016-08-02 16:13 mircea_popescu: phf allow me to quote to you from modern tolkien : "The heir apparent, Crown Prince Maha Vajiralongkorn, is poorly regarded in Thailand and the succession has clouded the brows of not only the Thai political elite, but the Thai people, who believe a period of substantial instability will follow the King's death"
mircea_popescu: why schmuck ? i dunno, cuz multiple topless women, some of which crying, in my very kitchen. nor do the pantsuit fucking dare mention my highness by name or anything ?
asciilifeform: nao how would i know whether trooly 'poorly regarded' or pantsuit libel.
mircea_popescu: that's besides the point. poorly regarded because the woman had panties on.
mircea_popescu: same exact fucking reason i think very little of the shah of brunei. thre's a word for the man who can't keep his household in line, and that word is "boy"
asciilifeform: btw last i knew, anyone peddling this story inside border of thailand is subj to heads-off, and they still enforce, despite whine from washington
mircea_popescu: irrespective of blather as to how "he doesn'\t want to" or "his mother is too old for lashing" or anything else.
mircea_popescu: i guess.
mircea_popescu: doesn't it strike ytou as way the fuck easier to lop some bits of fabric off a hip, than some heads off ?
asciilifeform: possibly brunei sultan could win from some 'tech transfer' from thai, in re subj.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: for all i know, d00d runs his palace as exact copy of mircea_popescu's, and journos simply make shit up.
mircea_popescu: there was a video included, which is why we discuss the panties-on-topless wife rather than quotes from whatever anglotard.
asciilifeform: oh ha i did not see the vid
mircea_popescu: pretty sure it was in same timeslice. tho perhaps on qntra
asciilifeform: is above seg accurate summary ?
mircea_popescu: im sure it's somewhere in the archives, if you must ima have it fished out
asciilifeform: let's have it for thread-compleetness ( i'll even revv up a box with sound & watch )
asciilifeform: i'm entirely willing to believe tho that this is the 400th and ~last yr of that dynasty
asciilifeform: (given as my orig contention was that ~all~ dynasty eventually runs outta juice)
asciilifeform: and they dun strictly ~have~ to die because 'heir is boy who cant keep household in order'. ivan iii, say, clubbed his only heir (+ his pregnant wife) to death with iron stick, worked just as well to end that dynasty as effete faggotry would've
asciilifeform: 'bang' just as good as 'whimper'.
mircea_popescu: so then what is it you're saying here ?
asciilifeform: that reichs come in finite-year
asciilifeform: (observe, even der fuhrer claimed '1000 yr' not '4evah')
mircea_popescu: this distinguishes reich from any one thing ?
BingoBoingo: In other news, beaches occupied by crowds offering gifts to African sea gods
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: reichs are among the moar long-lasting worx of man. but do wear out. ( exactly how and why, is q above my pay grade, but seems rather obv that they do in fact wear out )
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: lolwat??
mircea_popescu: alrighty then.
mircea_popescu: item meanwhile located, except, 30mb.
asciilifeform: animatedgif,64x64!11111
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Apparently what they do here instead of bothering groundhogs
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform flv, believe or not.
asciilifeform last saw flv when used '3d studio' for msdos
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes would it be at all possible to lift your pastebin limit to say 50mb ?
mircea_popescu perfectly willing to contribute to defray costs.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform possibly thailand has latest win95.
asciilifeform: entirely possib
asciilifeform: i'm told that win9x still common in e.g. southkr
asciilifeform: or hm, also possib that they filmed it with old nokia
asciilifeform: iirc those shat flv
asciilifeform brb,meat
mircea_popescu: a well, uploaded it to trilema (should be visible at http://trilema.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/thailand-crown-prince-dog-birthday.flv ) but for some reason 404s that i'm not going to be arsed to debug.
mircea_popescu: seems if you want 30mb worth of bad homemade porn in dubious antiquated encodings we'll need better infrastructure than is extant.
trinque: ave1: is it your experience that your gcc+gnat builds on musl? builds for musl, yes, but on?
trinque: and while I'm flailing and torching afternoons trying to get a vtools sat down on my cuntoo buildbox, if anyone can point me to instructions on getting gprbuild to cough up a static binary, I'd be much obliged
asciilifeform: trinque: see ffa as example
asciilifeform: ( in re static )
trinque: ty!
feedbot: http://bimbo.club/2019/02/philosophical-transactions-for-the-months-of-june-july-and-august-1715-part-vi/ << Bimbo.Club -- Philosophical Transactions. For the months of June, July and August, 1715. - Part V(I).
mircea_popescu: whether it actually ~is~ static in any dependable sense across platforms etc, still somewhat of a matter under investigation, fwiu ?\
BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-02#1891823 How have I not read this before! Real America near the end of the Great!
a111: Logged on 2019-02-02 19:24 mircea_popescu: in fact, the ur-murican would be this fellow : https://www.gutenberg.org/files/52670/52670-h/52670-h.htm
mircea_popescu: quite. if there is any writing that has a shot at that "great american novel title", it'd be l.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo did you get as far as where he ~reveals~ the sauce for the "go at it the right way" device ?
mircea_popescu: quite makes the whole thing.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Still eating it and the glory of the rest of the world catching up to Branch Rickey
BingoBoingo: Amazing how the last names remain revelant with Cobb being the outlier as he always is
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-03#1891970 << afaik built to date on 2 platforms total ( if anyone did a 3rd, not yet reported in the l0gz ) -- x64 and arm64. both replicated in asciilifeform's torture room, the former in regular use . thing builds strictly static+musltronic bins, it aint even knob-adjustable (which is as it oughta be imho) .
a111: Logged on 2019-02-03 01:24 mircea_popescu: whether it actually ~is~ static in any dependable sense across platforms etc, still somewhat of a matter under investigation, fwiu ?\
asciilifeform: afaik the only successful builds to date were on trad/barbaric gentoos , on top of which sat adacorpse-gnat '16.
asciilifeform: ( in the case of x64 and arm64 both. )
asciilifeform: incidentally, even old-fashioned barbaric adacorpse gnat was well-behaved re '-static' flag -- there's an os that dun even support static link (crapple) and it will properly barf there, rather than silently build dynamic ( incidentally can still build a runnable ffa there, fwiw, in debug mode -- see readme.txt )
asciilifeform: i concede that i have ~not~ tried winblowz (which incidentally ~does~ permit static link), couldn't think of any reason to, to date
asciilifeform: i also have not tried on (traditional, rather than crapplistic) bsd.
asciilifeform does not presently have any working irons with bsd
asciilifeform: incidentally i expect that results from 'does ffa build' carry over to errybody who is currently using a ffa-derived gpr config ( this includes diana_coman , iirc , and possibly phf )
asciilifeform: re ffa in particular, if yer testing on something truly exotic (in re not having a posix layer) you will have to change a coupla lines in os.adb where i/o happens
asciilifeform: refer to ave1's asmistic-i/o (no-libc-of-any-kind) demo, for these.
asciilifeform: for ffa , the only os knobs you need are 1) a means for getting commandline string 2) equiv. of putchar 3) equiv. of getchar 4) a means to read bytes from a FG .
asciilifeform: ( this means that e.g. http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-06#1832315 theoretically suffices for 'os' on which can run ffacalc. )
a111: Logged on 2018-07-06 17:07 asciilifeform: ok here goes, ftr : http://loper-os.org/pub/x86-64-toystore-os.tar.gz >> sha512==e292a6d4296bc3cc63d2bc78bb7def807f7c4e9f8e630b292afec00b08c1fc2f8eeff5d074560804828ee7aee8ab5e43e698436c203c990d994863882e51446a
trinque: diana_coman: I've got the diff between my cuntoo genesis.vpatch and yours chewed down to human size (about 900 lines). getting closer
asciilifeform: if you want to do , e.g., 4096bit rsa, needs iron with at least 256kB of ram . and 2 serial ports, 1 on which to hang FG, other for operator i/o. that's moar or less it, in re minimal iron req'd.
trinque: divergence is entirely within the profile dir, no ebuild differences, so that's a very encouraging result
trinque: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/OJFYM/?raw=true << I'll take to it with fresher eyes, but it looks like on diana_coman's end symlinks are being dereferenced, or something in that vicinity. that appears to be the only class of difference.
asciilifeform: trinque: possibly i'm thick, but how come they can turn out to differ at all b/w 2 installs ? does it munge'em at install time programmatically somehow ?
trinque: munge what?
asciilifeform: the files pictured in the diff above
trinque: the build script produces a genesis.vpatch which encompasses the cuntoo portage tree.
asciilifeform: right; so why would it not produce same output b/w 2 invocations
trinque: because we're comparing the output of her and my build machines, the goal being determinism.
asciilifeform: i get this part
trinque: please read the script and ask a specific question
asciilifeform: i'ma reread prior to asking moar
trinque: the goal here is that everyone who runs the script gets exactly the same genesis.vpatch, of course. why folks got slightly different results is exactly the question.
asciilifeform: ok that was actually my q ('is the source of the nondeterministic noise known?')
trinque: my release contains my signature of genesis.vpatch, but not the vpatch itself. this way everyone is forced to confirm the bridge out of gentoo and into cuntoo
asciilifeform: this is entirely proper
asciilifeform: ( and muchly superior to how asciilifeform did trb's 'chicken' genesis, where was stuck giving it as hand-cranked recipe on acct of the vdiff of the period being unable to describe deletion of binturds )
trinque: asciilifeform: the diff there contains only path weird, and I hazard a guess there's a difference in vdiff behavior. I used a vdiff pressed down to vtools_tempfile_standalone_notmp
trinque: this path took way longer, and I'm glad we got chicken to eat when needed.
asciilifeform: nao this is interesting ( i assume both of you used phf's modern vdiff, which as far as anyone knows is 100% deterministic and dun import 'locale' crapolade like the ancient one did )
mircea_popescu: trinque time for bash --version ?
trinque: GNU bash, version 4.4.12(1)-release (x86_64-gentoo-linux-musl)
trinque: worth underscoring that I built from a cuntoo
mircea_popescu: i got 4.1.16 ; it'd be a wonder if anyone still has a 3 anywhere, or for that matter if there;'s some subtle symlink treatment difference between them, but...
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