Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2019-01-08 | 2019-01-10 → ↓
lobbes: hahaha
lobbes: but both times? (plus all dozen of my passwd resets?). Anyways, more study for me. But for now bed
trinque: no idea, maybe passwd file manglement somehow. I'll look forward to what you find
lobbes: ty for helping me think this through trinque (and for the work on cuntoo in general. I'ma keep at this thing)
lobbes bbl
trinque: sure thing
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-09#1886041 << not a bug anymore (last year it was printed as a warning with no effects on the patch, effectively forcing newline always. i then adjusted vdiff to put correct "\ No newline.." directive, while vpatch knows to omit final newline when that directive is present)
a111: Logged on 2019-01-09 04:53 hanbot: billymg, phf: in billymg's latest mp-wp vpatch (http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-07#1885285), i see the old "\ No newline at end of file" spew on two of the touched files (was symptom of bug last yr: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-25#1786014). still indicative of proablem with presser/patch?
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-08#1885856 << i was having some trackpad issues in india (macbook's trackpad would stop working after about an hour outside), which made me contemplate problems of mousing at sea, which made me think that it's likely that someone makes rugged trackballs for industrial application. imagine my surprised when i discovered that someone actually does.
a111: Logged on 2019-01-08 16:48 asciilifeform: i dunno how phf ended up into it tho, iirc he dun cad
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-08#1885844 << you can also switch between three acceleration modes by, i believe, holding middle button and clicking right button (or similar, should be in the manual)
a111: Logged on 2019-01-08 16:45 asciilifeform: in other esoterica, on gentoo 'xinput' dumps list of mice, and then 'xinput --set-prop yermousenumber 269 -1' switches off mouse-acceleration. ( possibly phf already knew this, but gives 9000x moar usable roller )
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-06#1885092 << i have a couple and the first one i bought i think had that issue, i didn't bother replacing it, and after first cleaning i believe it went away, or possibly i stopped noticing. the one at my office definitely has clean clicks on all they keys, so if it bothers you perhaps worth replacing
a111: Logged on 2019-01-06 15:36 asciilifeform: hey phf, does the left switch on your cst billiard ball seem muffled vs the right ? i can't decide if mine's defective or not, just noticed last night..
mircea_popescu: imagine my surprise << i can imagine!
diana_coman: in other eulora-client headaches: to get the cpp client to use my ada lib (that I want to keep separate! away from cpp swamp!), it seems I need to make my lib "standalone encapsulated dynamic"
diana_coman: can't make it static because then it doesn't link in the adainit, adafinal
diana_coman: (those are needed to do the elaboration in ada so can't do without them either)
diana_coman: with the standalone encapsulated dynamic lib approach, I got it to work
mircea_popescu: da fuck is a "catamaran of butts in two boats" thingee.
diana_coman: basically the only way available to make a non-ada-main do the ada elaboration
diana_coman: the encapsulated part means it depends only on static libs at least (or so I read in the docs...)
mircea_popescu: entirely new category for me. is it different from dynamic ?
diana_coman: it has a donkey-horse as far as I can tell: a dynamic lib does not include all the code it requires so you'll need to further link /distribute stuff
diana_coman: onth a static lib does not have the elaboration...
mircea_popescu: why not ?
mircea_popescu: elaboration ~= cpp.init etc right ?
diana_coman: my trajectory in hitting walls on this was precisely that: make it static -> surprise, no adainit exported/included, checked the .a file and everything, went nuts; make it dynamic -> ugh, need -lgnat and whatnot; rtfm again and again, there is this calo-magar
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, no, it's an ada thing, nothing to do with cpp precisely
mircea_popescu: are we thus the first to try and call an ada library from a c main ?
diana_coman: no; the "way" to do that is meant to be precisely this standalone thingie
diana_coman: i.e. if you want to call ada from something-else main then you don't really have any choice that works other than this
diana_coman: or at least none that I'm aware of
mircea_popescu: so basically "the way to call ada from non-ada context is called 'standalone encapsulated dynamic' in ada" is the idea here ?
diana_coman: exactly
mircea_popescu: !#s standalone encapsulated dynamic
a111: 3 results for "standalone encapsulated dynamic", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=standalone%20encapsulated%20dynamic
diana_coman: the log is our days' own encyclopedia really
diana_coman: re ada elaboration since apparently it's not summarised in the logs as such: it's basically the code that runs *before* the main program starts and what it does is broadly initializing variables that the main program may expect to be able to access (e.g. "global" or in libs that are used) and running the "main" code (aka between begin and end of a package as opposed to that in procedures/functions) from units that are used
diana_coman: a sort of "getting everything ready" for the program to run
diana_coman: as it is specific to ada, a non-ada main has no idea (nor does it care) about it and therefore won't do it automatically; the only way to have it done is to call explicitly the "init" procedure for the Ada unit that is to be used; and the only way to *have* such an init procedure seems to be the standalone lib thing
diana_coman: i.e. have it as a procedure, exposed and accessible from cpp
feedbot: http://trilema.com/2019/i-think-it-might-be-the-case-im-becoming-pretentious/ << Trilema -- I think it might be the case I'm becoming pretentious.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-09#1886060 << ah ty phf , precisely what i wanted to learn
a111: Logged on 2019-01-09 11:14 phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-06#1885092 << i have a couple and the first one i bought i think had that issue, i didn't bother replacing it, and after first cleaning i believe it went away, or possibly i stopped noticing. the one at my office definitely has clean clicks on all they keys, so if it bothers you perhaps worth replacing
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-09#1886058 << i set mine to max when i uncrated it, but noticed that 'overshoots'. turned out, they aint acceleration modes, but pulses-per-radian, and http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-08#1885844 actually made it feel proper (i.e. can turn the roller 2pi, and then -2pi, and come to same pixel )
a111: Logged on 2019-01-09 11:09 phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-08#1885844 << you can also switch between three acceleration modes by, i believe, holding middle button and clicking right button (or similar, should be in the manual)
a111: Logged on 2019-01-08 16:45 asciilifeform: in other esoterica, on gentoo 'xinput' dumps list of mice, and then 'xinput --set-prop yermousenumber 269 -1' switches off mouse-acceleration. ( possibly phf already knew this, but gives 9000x moar usable roller )
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-09#1886065 << hmm diana_coman , what piece in your proggy actually uses elaboration ? ( is it the tasking ? )
a111: Logged on 2019-01-09 14:08 diana_coman: (those are needed to do the elaboration in ada so can't do without them either)
asciilifeform: ( mine has no elaboration . but i escaped using all sortsa things )
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-09#1886056 << i tried and failed to find & buy whatever it is they make for the sea ( why settle for konsoomer plastic ) but no dice, it aint gettable anywhere
a111: Logged on 2019-01-09 11:07 phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-08#1885856 << i was having some trackpad issues in india (macbook's trackpad would stop working after about an hour outside), which made me contemplate problems of mousing at sea, which made me think that it's likely that someone makes rugged trackballs for industrial application. imagine my surprised when i discovered that someone actually does.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-09#1886064 << iirc ave1 found how to expose the init knob explicitly. you may want to try his method
a111: Logged on 2019-01-09 14:07 diana_coman: can't make it static because then it doesn't link in the adainit, adafinal
asciilifeform: guten morgen, Mocky
Mocky: good morning
Mocky: how goes ch 15 asciilifeform ?
asciilifeform: Mocky: proggy written, nao writin' proof
asciilifeform: Mocky: ( yes stein is a pretty simple item, quite unlike e.g. barrett, but still gotta give pedantic convergence proof for it )
asciilifeform: Mocky: ch16 will be about m-r .
asciilifeform: last night i re-read diana_coman's piece on m-r , it is interesting just how much sweat diana_coman had to put in simply on account of koch gnarl
asciilifeform brb,teatime
feedbot: http://qntra.net/2019/01/lone-university-employed-sokal-squared-author-faces-sanctions-as-apparently-academic-journal-editors-are-uninformed-human-research-subjects-and-not-human-spam-filters/ << Qntra -- Lone University Employed 'Sokal Squared' Author Faces Sanctions As Apparently Academic Journal Editors Are 'Uninformed Human Research Subjects' And Not Human Spam Filters
diana_coman: asciilifeform, yes, it's the tasking re http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-09#1886099
a111: Logged on 2019-01-09 15:10 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-09#1886065 << hmm diana_coman , what piece in your proggy actually uses elaboration ? ( is it the tasking ? )
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-09#1886104 -> I seem to have missed this; ave1, did you find a way to expose the adainit for static libs?
a111: Logged on 2019-01-09 15:16 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-09#1886064 << iirc ave1 found how to expose the init knob explicitly. you may want to try his method
mircea_popescu: keks, they finally found the "legalaction" way to plug the femtard "scholar" hole ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform answered!
asciilifeform: diana_coman: i suspect that even if you get the thing to properly link, you will discover new headaches on acct of http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-06#1885177 . really imho proggy that has ada tasks oughta have ada main , and (if must) call static cpp turdola, not vice-versa
a111: Logged on 2019-01-06 17:28 asciilifeform: the 1st step to adaizing a cpp turd is to remove the cpp threadisms, they will not only not work with ada's sane tasking but actually destroy the guarantees of the latter
asciilifeform: cuz in the vice-versa variant, what you'll have is ~two~ threading systems that dun know about one another, and the shit one (cpp) doesn't have any concept of sane locks etc
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: hey, if microshit can have weev jailed for munging URLs, why not acade-microshit and some other d00d , similarly
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform consider the problem at hand : there's 200k loc in a hairball currently.
asciilifeform: oh i recall
asciilifeform: it's a trb-like item
mircea_popescu: now obviously, "best place for ada code is in ada program". but the issue here is how to effectually corrupt, stupidity into sense.
asciilifeform: i strongly suspect it'll have to be de-threaded to work reliably with ada-cum-tasks , sadly
mircea_popescu: it's getting dethreaded, sure.
asciilifeform: (i.e. cut into sections that can run reentrantly)
mircea_popescu: fwiw, it uses threads for no practical purpose, just ot say it uses them
asciilifeform: exactly like trb then
mircea_popescu: quite, yes.
asciilifeform has not studied mircea_popescu's proggy, of yet, doesn't dare to comment in detail
mircea_popescu: in fact it's 100% trb toy/"training muppet"
mircea_popescu: "learn how to operate by cutting on this textile dolly"
asciilifeform: aint there a multi-MB '3d' lib in there also ?
mircea_popescu: but no ssl :D
asciilifeform: lol prolly no bdb also
mircea_popescu: ~same, really.
asciilifeform: hm it actually links in ~all~ of mysql ? or just has the typical 'connect to local instance' skin ?
asciilifeform: so like phuctor.
mircea_popescu: nah, i'd hope phuctor's better interfaced.
asciilifeform: ( phuctor connects to a local instance of postgres, so in that sense similar )
asciilifeform: incidentally i cant think of any reason it wouldn't work exactly same with mysql, with the exception of where i dun yet know how to do the o(n log n) indices in mysql
asciilifeform: re: ada elaboration, i found http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-20#1741485 item useful when i was last puzzling over subj
a111: Logged on 2017-11-20 23:36 asciilifeform: meanwhile, from the dept of interesting but dead, http://adagin.blogspot.com
asciilifeform: ( pretty lively pedagogy, too, e.g. http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-20#1741487 )
a111: Logged on 2017-11-20 23:38 asciilifeform: typical, http://adagin.blogspot.com/2013/12/ada-2005-access-types-part-i.html , lively : type Hooker_Array is array (Positive range <>) of Hooker_Class_Ptr; procedure Violate_Bodies (x : Hooker_Array); ... 'We want to track all our victims, presumably in some sort of set or container, so that we might disinter them later as needed. Similarly, we might also want to do strange, awful things with the dead bodies of the hookers.'
mircea_popescu: "This is neatly decomposed (ha!) into a class hierarchy:" << guy's pretty cool.
asciilifeform: sadly vanished in '15
asciilifeform: i suspect he was 'old guard' (ada greybeard) and the bottle took its toll.
mircea_popescu: "But the type conversion rules for pointers are not so easily duped; there are no "classwide pointers" (thought perhaps life would be different if there were!). " << motherfucker on a stick, i want "classwide pointers" ie, "this door ambiguously links to any of the mcdonalds not any specific one" as i want to wake up to being assfucked by chtulhu.
mircea_popescu: what the fuck.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> BingoBoingo: hey, if microshit can have weev jailed for munging URLs, why not acade-microshit and some other d00d , similarly << There is still lulz to play out. He's being prosecuted in university research court (similar to University title ix court), unlikely to be fired, but if he is the bar will be lowered. Maybe to the point we can have a fire PSU faculty bot.
mircea_popescu: am i the only one to whom this seems like going the exact wrong fucking way ?
mircea_popescu: and what fucking "object oriented"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: sorta why i suspect 'greybeard'. prolly he also had a 200kloc (or 2e6...) that had to be dealt with as-is, pointerola & all.
asciilifeform: ( observe, the only 'access pointer' in ffa is where it sucks in cmdline args from unix )
asciilifeform: the world of the folx who wrote ada for moneys in the saeculum, is not , as i gather, a happy place. sorta why asciilifeform had to learn buncha things from 1st principles, rather than by reading their ugh
mircea_popescu: this guy's write-up makes me want to ban ada.
asciilifeform: i have even moar wtf items in my collection.
asciilifeform: ( observe that ch1 ffa actually starts out by http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1913#selection-337.0-1150.0 , i.e. banning 90% of ada.. why didja suppose this was. )
asciilifeform: 'new shithouse is built from the rubble of the old, not imported brick' or how did lenin put it.
asciilifeform: phunphakt: in ye olde bolixtron, there is an ada ( and fortran! ) compiler. (however asciilifeform has not tried either item, beyond 'hello world' )
asciilifeform: it , if one is to believe the docs, implements the '83 standard.
asciilifeform: ( the fortran - f77 )
asciilifeform actually considered a fortran ffa, in '16
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-09#1886159 -> well yes, trying to "dupe" the rules can't be anything other than trying to corrupt the thing back into what-we-know (and possibly like or not but at least are used to it)
a111: Logged on 2019-01-09 17:06 mircea_popescu: "But the type conversion rules for pointers are not so easily duped; there are no "classwide pointers" (thought perhaps life would be different if there were!). " << motherfucker on a stick, i want "classwide pointers" ie, "this door ambiguously links to any of the mcdonalds not any specific one" as i want to wake up to being assfucked by chtulhu.
ave1: hmm I was talking to feedbot to up myself
ave1: all these extra code generation in Ada is managed with gnatbind
asciilifeform: wb ave1
diana_coman: ave1, hm, I did look in there when I made the first go aka I compiled step by step the whole thing; but I don't recollect any real alternative to the standalone lib if one wants to pack the code really
diana_coman: I'll have another look at any rate, can't hurt
ave1: I can do some experimentation, but this will take a bit longer (got to go now...)
diana_coman: I suppose I can further look at what gprbuild does for standalone libs and then force it into what I want but ...
diana_coman: ave1, it's not burning right now, no
diana_coman: ffs jamfile shit: I did not have a space between lib name and ; so it...silently ignored it and ate my time grrrr
diana_coman: if there was more need for hating jam, it's there
asciilifeform: diana_coman: what is 'jam' ?
diana_coman: yet another tool that "makes building simple" don't you know; eulora's client has a WHOLE pile of scripts on top of jam on top of autotools and all that
diana_coman: for all my hate of them, atm they...build the whole mess of plugins and whatnots so sweeping them aside would take some effort, not insignificant
diana_coman: yes, a ton of ugh
asciilifeform: what's it do that gnumake, cmake, etc dun do ?
asciilifeform: btw it is possible to build cpp with gnatmake, believe or not ( i only tried for simplest case, but does work )
diana_coman: asciilifeform, I suppose www.perforce.com/documentation/jam-documentation will explain that in triplicate
diana_coman: and yes, I'd much rather use gnatmake for the whole pile of shit but atm the idea was to focus on a *different* part of the shit, since there are so many and I'm only one
asciilifeform: 'Jam runs on UNIX, VMS, NT, OS/2, Mac OS X, and Mac MPW' << if troo, notbad at least in re portability
diana_coman: myeah, that's part of the thing: as it is, it is at least tested that people managed to compile the whole thing on different platforms
asciilifeform: i find it interesting just how many half-working substitutes for gnumake folx have written
diana_coman: in the same vein of interesting as http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-09#1886113
a111: Logged on 2019-01-09 15:36 asciilifeform: last night i re-read diana_coman's piece on m-r , it is interesting just how much sweat diana_coman had to put in simply on account of koch gnarl
asciilifeform: there are so many and I'm only one << i admit that i'm a little curious why diana_coman & mircea_popescu dun enlist Mocky to carry on client dev -- but it's not my biz , if they dun feel like going into subj, i won't cry
asciilifeform: ( perhaps can assume either that Mocky could not stomach it, or charged toomuch )
BingoBoingo: Meanwhile in local news: Argentina ~30% poorer than last year in yet another metric https://www.elobservador.com.uy/nota/-desastre-y-fatal-temporada-en-punta-del-este-segun-comerciantes-201917204123
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ftjam pretty much the standard alternative to mod6 style handmade .sh
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i read the link from earlier, made sense
asciilifeform: there's 9000 of these, 'cmake', 'bake', 'qtmake', etc
mircea_popescu: yeah, but this one works. sorta like there's 5000 "operating systems", but we use cuntoo.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: does it work in that 'it worx, and 7 others previously barfed' or 'it was 1st i happened to try and it seems to work' ?
mircea_popescu: the former, chet spent 3 months with this shit cca 2013
asciilifeform: if mircea_popescu says -- i'll believe
asciilifeform: in the past asciilifeform used ordinary gnumake for this kinda thing. but it usually resulted in 1000ln 'make'.
mircea_popescu: yes well.
asciilifeform: ( aand on top of that, is victim of the faux-standardization pestilential in unixland )
mircea_popescu: also, remarkably stable, i've not had to fiddle with the original ftjam, client compiles today same exact way it did back then. which...
mircea_popescu: i know of no project that can say same over half decade.
asciilifeform: if you never fiddled with the layout, why shouldn't it work
mircea_popescu: client went through two major and a bunch of minor versions.
mircea_popescu: was a point in iirc 2015 when it was "get new client or can't connect"
asciilifeform: in other noose, asciilifeform made the unhappy discovery that shift-by-zero takes fewer cpu cycles on pretty much all x86 iron vs shift-by-1 .
asciilifeform: this means not only slightly slower gcd than the draft posted earlier (it'll need a mux) but it also means that e.g. http://www.loper-os.org/pub/ffa/hypertext/ch14/fz_qshft__adb.htm#111_14 was in fact leaking, albeit undetectable on the tests given in ch14, and will need mandatory HaveBarrelShifter = 0 (i.e. 5% or so penalty)
asciilifeform: ( and before anyone asks -- neither intel nor amd publish 'tick tables' the way they did in 1990s, and haven't for many yrs )
asciilifeform: this appears to be the kind of boobytrap that can only be found empirically.
feedbot: http://qntra.net/2019/01/systemd-journald-exploits-found-all-systemd-distros-affected/ << Qntra -- Systemd Journald Exploits Found All Systemd Distros Affected
asciilifeform found the shift booby by generating ridiculously long random inputs, with variety of hamming weight ranges, and plain old wallclock
lobbes: !Xview 1035
auctionbot: Buy order # 1035: 1500 Filthy Fiats, Wired, WU, or Moneygram Opened at: 400mn ecu Winning Bid: None [Closed]
lobbes: auctionbot was down for ~9 hours today (back online now). I'm going to give a 100 ecu per auction hour credit to everyone who had auctions going during this downtime, since no one could put in bids during that time and I don't wanna charge fees for those hours. Thinking I'll make this standard policy going forward
asciilifeform set up an experiment with variants of http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/RMcd3/?raw=true ; will report re same tomorrow
asciilifeform let it go on 2 diff opterons and 2 intels
asciilifeform: hm , prolly oughta test both left and right, and make the operand nonzero (in case the iron does 'clever' with zeros), so gotta redo..
mircea_popescu: and today being january, let us celebrate the SECOND year yossi kreinin failed to engage the utter destruction of his inept nonsense found in http://trilema.com/2017/my-ai-problems-a-humble-confession/
mircea_popescu: because hey, this is optional now, yossik is at liberty to redress his stupidity or not as he well pleases, there's no obligation my intellectual superiority creates for him or anything.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: hm what made you remember that d00d existed ?
mircea_popescu: coincidentally dug up article for inquiring young minds.
billymg: hanbot: thanks for checking it out, i'll take a look at the "no newline" issue and see if i can get rid of it
billymg: i also noticed that the selection-magic.txt (which is to be renamed to selection-magic.php) ( http://trilema.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/selection-magic.txt ) contains comments at the top marked with // that are not parsed as comments because they're outside the <script> block
billymg: updated in my copy to wrap in <!-- -->
billymg: wondering about proper V process though, this is back in the previous patch i published to add the text selection feature, does this mean regrind both?
billymg: i mean, the second needs it now in any case for the "no newline" spew, but had that one been fine, what would've been preferred for remedying the one before it?
mircea_popescu: billymg can just put a patch atop your tree.
billymg: sounds good
mircea_popescu: hey Mocky : i need a buncha noob clicks done in eulora ; can you spend a coupla hours one of these days ?
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-10#1886234 << update : the 1e11-shot ver. reveals no significant avg. delta; rerunning overnight with 1e12.
a111: Logged on 2019-01-10 01:52 asciilifeform: hm , prolly oughta test both left and right, and make the operand nonzero (in case the iron does 'clever' with zeros), so gotta redo..
asciilifeform: btw the thing that set asciilifeform's ears standing originally, is that the gcd test battery appeared to give +/- 30% variant runtimes depending on hamming weights. but in 20 repeats of the trial set, the same thing showed up, and with no correlation to hamming weight. and a http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/wherN/?raw=true ( soft barrelshifter ) version now ends up showing... same thing. i suspect that some peculiarity of the pipeline is
asciilifeform: involved (i.e. interaction with other crapola running on the box) to produce random variance
asciilifeform: thing is, this effect does not appear with e..g modexp, so i gotta find out where it comes from
asciilifeform bbl,meat
Mocky: mircea_popescu sure, no problem. I'll fire it up tomorrow, make sure I'm good to go.
mircea_popescu: i was thinking more the weekend ?
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