Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2018-01-17 | 2018-01-19 → ↓
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 15:50 apeloyee: well, ideally it would have a "No_Out_Arguments_Aliasing" restriction which would insert runtime checks
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 17:42 asciilifeform: possibly there ought to be not 1 but... 4 null cells
mircea_popescu: ima have to finish this megalog tomorro, too exhausted.
asciilifeform: goodnight mircea_popescu
asciilifeform also to bed.
ave1: http://ave1.org/2018/building-gnat-on-musl-now-with-a-signature/ script to build GNAT, now with signature and the result can compile ch1
asciilifeform: ave1: neat
shinohai: http://archive.is/n3JWg <<< Should just go ahead and make Barry Shillbert an official member of the Trump admin.
asciilifeform: 'The United States federal government has paid approximately half a million dollars to a private corporation to help various agencies conduct surveillance on the Bitcoin blockchain' << pretty lulzy, that's, e.g., 3 janitors, 2 clerks, 1 intern, for 1yr
asciilifeform: and 'conduct surveillance' on publicly broadcast item, pretty rich.
asciilifeform: oldscam, however, is old:
asciilifeform: !#s noblis
shinohai: hah yeah, forgot about that.
asciilifeform: 'People who wish to avoid financial surveillance should consider using privacy-centric cryptocurrencies with opaque blockchains, such as Monero' << lol, oblig money shot saved for end
asciilifeform had nfi that the monerists were still around
asciilifeform: didn't that nonsense implode..? or was that z-somethingorother.
asciilifeform has the 2 or 3 different 'z-' shitcoins perma-symlinked in head
shinohai: "A promise from the SCAM coin team: We won't sleep until SCAM coin has been successfully listed on at least one shitty exchange." <<< Truth in advertising now I guess.
shinohai: (New ICO token)
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes dja happen to have a link to the original case of http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-18#1569630 ? iirc you reported it, maybe 2014s
a111: Logged on 2016-11-18 15:15 mircea_popescu: gotta kyc in case the fat tard over at the us park administration gets tired of asking for special booth at burning man and wants to peruse pics of subtards licking fish through a screen of milk, gotta have the pics ready for him!!11
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 11800.0, vol: 28608.75009947 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 11487.0, vol: 103165.57225643 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 11815.0, vol: 9783.20905574 | Volume-weighted last average: 11572.9257097
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2018/how-to-satisfyingly-have-sex-with-a-girl-under-12/ << Trilema - How to satisfyingly have sex with a girl under 12
mircea_popescu rests easy in the knowledge he's penned the most outrageous item ever written in english, by such a margin as to permanently defy competition
ben_vulpes tips hat
asciilifeform: funnily enuff this is maybe the 5th or 6th trilema piece in a row that asciilifeform finished eating just prior to deedbot displaying
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you know what, i think that may be it.
asciilifeform: and it is pretty great
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform iirc rss delay is 15mins
shinohai: I wonder how long it would stay up if I posted it to r/TwoXChromosomes
mircea_popescu: reddit is very VERY butthurt at http://trilema.com/2014/spamming-reddit-an-experiment/ has trilema on some kind of master kill list.
asciilifeform: possibly gold medal trololol against angloroaches.
asciilifeform: ( in re the latest article )
shinohai: In which mircea_popescu demonstrates the `Loli-pop`
mircea_popescu: i see it takes teh forum 5 minutes to figure out the easter egg in there...
BingoBoingo baking blog post.
mircea_popescu: so is diana_coman ; and earlier ave1 ! truly spectacular republica output these days!
diana_coman: taking of baking, these eucrypt blog posts feel like cozonaci : always sort of growing more than I expect them, no matter what adjustment to expectations previous batch caused
diana_coman: ugh, talking*
mircea_popescu: ahahaha word.
BingoBoingo baking next post about the very sad hombre de Inglaterra
asciilifeform: oh hey congrats BingoBoingo
ben_vulpes: http://archive.is/Eei43 << expensive afternoon for the cops
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: It's just a step
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo did you ever publish the datacenter price details ?
BingoBoingo: I don't recall if I did, will check and publish if not
BingoBoingo: Oh, sad Englishman has to wait
BingoBoingo: baking
shinohai: BingoBoingo: You think that 'terp of yours can get us in on the Venezuelan Gov't ICO ? xD
BingoBoingo: They leave Venezuala for reasons
trinque has venezuelans living directly below. there was a long battle over whether THOOM THOOM THOOM was music
trinque: it is not.
BingoBoingo: ^ For everyone.
shinohai: trinque: I had the same issue with Mexicans. A little death metal solved it.
BingoBoingo: trinque: Are you familiar with Regaeton?
BingoBoingo: Or however the Brasileros spell it
trinque: not familiar, only heard blaring out of lowriders now and then
BingoBoingo: It's the default Brasilero music
asciilifeform: unrelatedly , asciilifeform recently found out that you can still buy old-style SLC ('single layer') ssd. 100,000+ write cycle endurance instead of the ubiquitous MLC ('multi layer') ~10,000 . for approx 8x the cost. has, supposedly, considerably faster writes, also.
BingoBoingo: ^ and asciilifeform before you ask, even if he is a spy he can't effectively because the girl he can't talk too is too smitten.
BingoBoingo: Poor girl is just torturing herself waiting for him to make a move.
asciilifeform: lol dafuq to do in uruguay with 0 spanish
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Learn spanish, hang out with Brasileros who don't speak spanish
BingoBoingo: Apparently one can have fun in Punta Del Este with zero spanish provided they have a Trump budget, but it is a serious WTFism.
shinohai: Maybe he is still searching for an app for that!
asciilifeform: even on pnoje there are language gamez etc
BingoBoingo: And the Brasileros without spanish can usually get by on the latin language mutual intelligibity deal
BingoBoingo: And there's an old USian chasing 80 degree temps for his arthritis and going to AA meetings that at least made an effort at memorizing phrases before he fucked off to Buenos Aires
BingoBoingo: By all appearances though the Englishman is functionally taking his vacation on Facebook.
deedbot: http://www.dianacoman.com/2018/01/18/eucrypt-chapter-6-keccak-transformations/ << Ossasepia - EuCrypt Chapter 6: Keccak Transformations
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 18:07 asciilifeform: however this introduces explicit pointerism. ( though, i will add, NOT pointer-arithmetism )
mircea_popescu: phf check it out, keccak published.
asciilifeform: oh hey hey hey lbj
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: why hard ?
mircea_popescu: stack as linked list has a notion of next item on stack, yes ?
asciilifeform: right. but... i'ma let mircea_popescu eat rest of the thread
mircea_popescu eats then
mircea_popescu: ah you don't actually mean to use pointers, just a lisp-style memory emulator for the stack itself
asciilifeform: ( spoiler : you can trivially implement linked list without -- properly speaking -- pointers, but with integers, this also came up in the earlier 'lisp in ada' thread )
mircea_popescu: whereby the jump is in the item pointed to, not in the mechanism of pointing
asciilifeform: so long as you don't use the heap, you more or less can dispense with traditional pointers.
mircea_popescu: once you use "traditional" pointers, your "stack" is a heap.
asciilifeform: ( the ada passing by reference semantics give you almost anything that c programmers typically want from pointerism )
asciilifeform: ada working in normal mode typically won't even let you take a pointer of an object on the stack.
asciilifeform: ( you have to satisfy the compiler that it has exactly same 'life' as the item pointed-to. and in practice this is quite difficult. )
asciilifeform: currently ffa has 0 pointerism.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771869 << thinking about this, it seems that both a) a re-implementation of the lisp memory model is unavoidable for any serious purpose and b) the place where the rewrite will start is the stack ; are true.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 18:27 asciilifeform: speaking of which, could even have a stackmachine with circular ring for a stack.
asciilifeform: it's next on asciilifeform's conveyor after ffa. ( this should not discourage anybody else from writing adatronic lisps of whatever type, however )
mircea_popescu: note how ffa ends up satisfying the greenspun rule, through the predictable entry point.
asciilifeform: it already lives in the forth hole, lol
mircea_popescu: why not actually do it then, and first construct an ada circular ring lisp-memory stack first ?
asciilifeform: ( i considered lispism, rejected for the given application strictly on account of moving-parts-count , 'p' gotta have parachute-level simplicity )
mircea_popescu: seems your stack wants to meld into that anyway.
asciilifeform: it's a variant. not currently convinced that it is The Right Thing.
mircea_popescu: so write it as a side point and see.
asciilifeform: aha, it's on the side-point list.
mircea_popescu: some possible things need to be made before it can be decided.
asciilifeform: i got a megatonne of those . ( e.g. unrolled comba )
mircea_popescu: seems one of the most promising.
phf: aye, i'll marry keccak to vdiff today or tomorrow to get a poc out.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771889 << that's ok, pipeline permablown anyway.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 18:54 asciilifeform: from pipeline-blowing pov -- expensive.
diana_coman: phf, those are the keccak transformations; do you need the actual sponge?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: apparently not. hence why unrolled comba was iirc 2x+ speedup
asciilifeform: (unrolling doesn't do anything useful on archs with no pipeline)
mircea_popescu: diana_coman ah, is it a two part item then ?
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, yes, all that there is still only... first part
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform don't tell me you didn't take your volkskomputi to the commissariat for the mandatory urine injections or what was it.
diana_coman: padding, bitstream, sponge, oaep to follow; currently still in the works
mircea_popescu: a damn, seems i shot too quickly. sorry phf
mircea_popescu is overexcitable
phf: never mind then! i gotta figure out how to do the whole "file moved part" anyway, and i don't need a hashing function yet. i'm using a sha512 implementation from busybox
diana_coman: they will be grouped into as few chapters as possible of course
asciilifeform: but but, does spreading work yet!11
mircea_popescu: diana_coman cool deal then.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771903 << because didn't seriously think of the particular problem, which happens with prototypes.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 19:32 asciilifeform: apeloyee: the 'liable to change' thing was very much NOT part of my orig design for v.
asciilifeform: worse, was thinking of very different ( and probably unsolvable ) problem ( 'how to give arbitrarily small pieces of code, a perma-history' )
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771907 << v is not at all pretending they are ; that's accidental misconstruction.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 19:34 apeloyee: files are NOT INDEPENDENT. despite CVS and v pretending they are. this is a problem. you could have required some form of cryptographic commitment to either the tree state or even the antedecent patches themselves, but didn't
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform quite evident ; but yes, i believe wrong problem to solve. "oh lord, how could bits of code have an identity ?" "why ?" "so they could be my girflriends" "Come on!"
mircea_popescu: the strong statement here is that the ~only~ possible identity bits of code have is based on ~personal memory~. to revisit the oft used bubblesort example -- any particular implementation of bubblesort IS bubblesort because ~you~ recognize it as such and for ~no other reason~, factual ~or possible~. consequently fits in head as the basis of code identity.
asciilifeform: in what other way does anything fit-in-head ?
mircea_popescu: and this identity is also fluent, because different things are the same thing, such as no further than earlier the "you really want a lisp stack". this recognition is only there because of personal knowledge, and absent otherwise.
mircea_popescu: you could not have written such a tagging mechanism as it'd have permitted a machine to recognize the substance of what you were saying when discussing "pointers" which weren't.
mircea_popescu: and all this goes right into that older thread of ambiguity, orthogonality and language -- you can never make a language that's orthogonal and ~useful~ in the natural sense. let alone "that anyone'd want to use".
mircea_popescu: (but since we're on it -- the enduring interest in obfuscated-c is strictly this, "let us try and write a novel in orthogonal language ; this should be done in c because it's very much not orthogonal". became a self-recursing joke, that the practitioners don't even properly understand, just sorta-feel. BECAUSE they talk about it in natural languages.)
mircea_popescu: incidentally asciilifeform is apeloyee actually http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=from%3Aascii+brother ?
phf: that would be quite a twist
mircea_popescu: imagine, there's two of these out there!
shinohai: asciilifeform would construct a death-ray and obliterate him from afar.
mircea_popescu: he would ?
phf: ascii vs brother doesn't strike me as that kind of relationship. more like "you have to learn much little one, and i have N years on you"
mircea_popescu: but that's only one pov.
mircea_popescu: inb4 apeloyee comes in, goes "oh, but actually... yes", alf is forever floored.
mircea_popescu: bread and butter of cheap fiction, "you don't know who your brother is"
asciilifeform: i thought it was typically fathers
asciilifeform: or is that just hollywoods
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> or is that just hollywoods << The Greeks did it!
mircea_popescu: i can't think of major examples outside of the star wars thing (coulkdn't think of that either until pointed out). commedia is mostly brothers.
phf: or lovers, like what is it, the two gentlemen of verona
asciilifeform brb,meat
mircea_popescu doesn't think greek tragedy is party to this discussion, but is overwhelmed by explaining why.
phf: or midsummer night's dream
mircea_popescu: if anyone is wondering, alf lives in a sausage plant. there's lots of meat.
phf: i half expect it to be some kind of kafka narrative, where, when not engaged with tmsr business, alf actually does some macabre butcher work involving big meaty hands and slabs
shinohai: Heh, in my my mind I always imagined asciilifeform living in abattoir because of the "brb, meats"
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> if anyone is wondering, alf lives in a sausage plant. there's lots of meat. << been wondering if I should move in with him, or take bets on when he gets scurvy
BingoBoingo: From the WaPo: "Six buses operated by Silicon Valley tech companies to shuttle employees to their offices have been attacked on the highway over the past week. The California Highway Patrol reports that four Apple and one Google bus had their windows shattered on Tuesday by unidentified projectiles"
shinohai: !!rate mats 3 #trilema - Never has let me go into battle with an empty war-chest.
mod6: mircea_popescu: also, fwiw, we might need to adjust our "NO '--- ' or '+++ ' to begin a line in a vpatch to "NO '-- ' or '++ '". There was a vpatch in development where my vtron choked on a line being added into a source file that began with '++', and with the diff '+', became '+++'. My vtron correctly choked here. But maybe a bit of an adjustment to the rule?
shinohai: !!v 2F07483E10CD3A025FAEE4979B80C922944C4199D4CA0C678A8CCF1BD47DF7FC
deedbot: shinohai updated rating of mats from 2 to 3 << #trilema - Never has let me go into battle with an empty war-chest.
shinohai tips hat to mats
mircea_popescu: mod6 the magic string diff uses is "+++ " ie three plusses AND A SPACE
mod6: yah, that's actually what it added up to: "+++ ", but no diff info / hash after it.
mircea_popescu: well, this is the curse of magic words.
mod6: yah, food for thought here maybe.
mircea_popescu: which line was it ?
mod6: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/ZvDPR/?raw=true << diana_coman has all the details.
mircea_popescu: yeah, looks like a killer.
mircea_popescu: sadly, until phf's improved diff hits the deck there's nothing we can do here.
mod6: *nod* sounds good.
mod6: Thanks!
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771920 << quite rly ; the south american south is remarkably peaceful, nobody needs (or wants) them for much.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 19:43 asciilifeform: fenómenos que "no tiene antecedentes" en el país << orly?
mircea_popescu: pais is uruguay not you know, brazil.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771939 << this is quite it, for half of the problem ; for the other half -- ANYTHING is independent if you make it so, just put it in your genesis.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 19:55 asciilifeform: iirc mircea_popescu's argument was that it is wrong to say that they could ~ever~ be properly independent. and that if they could be shown to be independent, they ought to be separate v-trees.
mircea_popescu: nothing prevents you from saying "this is the genesis of apeloyee's fantastical funicular, it consists of a cog i stole from alf's exceptional exsudator, some other bits i wrote myself and various parts i forgot where i stole" ; but something QUITE fundamental prevents you from writing down "include #fucksticks" and to have a helpful paperclip pop out of nowhere in your emacs guts and declare "this so far looks like you're pu
mircea_popescu: lling in stallman's deplorable dropsy".
mircea_popescu: because it'd need guile to do and guile is shit. if for no other reason. comprende ?
mircea_popescu: in other words, the only maker of independence in the realm of thought is the hand of man, and this can't be fixed.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771941 << it means the bar for what may be acceptable primitives is slightly lower than before ; this is not necessarily avoidable though, the advantage of having alphabet starts around having twenty or so letters only ; fifty letter "alphabet" is not much better than 5000 hieroglyphery.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 19:56 asciilifeform: however it DOES mean even ~more~ work for folx using v, than ever before. and not less.
mircea_popescu: consider concretely the case of eucrypt's keccak. diana_coman is writing it as a direct derivation off genesis, meaning on extant v impls if one wanted to import it they could import JUST it, without the rest of eucrypt (it'll be pulled in later through the usual procedure in eucrypt itself). superficially this may seem like it encourages phf to go "o i know, i'll just link keccak patch into my codebase rather than regring (i
mircea_popescu: e, copy/paste) it".
mircea_popescu: the problem is that later on, eucrypt's smg_keccak will be pulled into the main to be used for purposes ; if EVEN LATER it gets a patch, phf will then not actually have a way to seamlessly "get just the patch", he will have to regrind at that time anyway.
mircea_popescu: ie, this "independent parts in an automatic fashion" is a hope impossible in practice. the only way he can have it is if HE reads it, as it is found wherever it is found (eucrypt as it happens here), and then HE puts it in, as a regrind, ie, yes, "de novo" item.
mircea_popescu: which is why the original "do not link across v trees"
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-18#1772485 <- after things are put together by human hand it takes human hand to take them apart, yes, unsurprising; point is it's enough to choose and pick out of the desired vpatch what is relevant (i.e. for keccak in this example) and that's as far as it goes
a111: Logged on 2018-01-18 20:58 mircea_popescu: the problem is that later on, eucrypt's smg_keccak will be pulled into the main to be used for purposes ; if EVEN LATER it gets a patch, phf will then not actually have a way to seamlessly "get just the patch", he will have to regrind at that time anyway.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman wgat "it" is here discussed ?
diana_coman: in the "it takes human hand"? the thing put together needs taken apart of similar nature
mircea_popescu: point is it's enough to choose <
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-18#1772449 << normally 'meatspace' but i like phf's picture.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-18 20:31 phf: i half expect it to be some kind of kafka narrative, where, when not engaged with tmsr business, alf actually does some macabre butcher work involving big meaty hands and slabs
asciilifeform: ( and it ain't too far from the troof... )
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-18#1772453 << this has been a regular thing since at least '14
a111: Logged on 2018-01-18 20:33 BingoBoingo: From the WaPo: "Six buses operated by Silicon Valley tech companies to shuttle employees to their offices have been attacked on the highway over the past week. The California Highway Patrol reports that four Apple and one Google bus had their windows shattered on Tuesday by unidentified projectiles"
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-18#1772477 << in ideal vtron, the 'and i stole x from a, y from b...' is protocolic, rather than promisetronic. i.e. abolition of eyeball-powered diff.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-18 20:53 mircea_popescu: nothing prevents you from saying "this is the genesis of apeloyee's fantastical funicular, it consists of a cog i stole from alf's exceptional exsudator, some other bits i wrote myself and various parts i forgot where i stole" ; but something QUITE fundamental prevents you from writing down "include #fucksticks" and to have a helpful paperclip pop out of nowhere in your emacs guts and declare "this so far looks like you're pu
asciilifeform: eyeball-powered diff, when there is a mechanical one, is nuttery
diana_coman: I always read asciilifeform's "meat" along the lines of "call of the annoying reality of existence in human form"
asciilifeform: diana_coman: this is correct picture.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there can't be such a wonderous protocol. in no small part because the PRINCIPAL FUNCTION of the human hand is http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-10#1768461
a111: Logged on 2018-01-10 16:41 hanbot: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-10#1768160 << haha well this answers http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-09#1767425 then. 0 useful.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-18#1772483 << it's still annoying that , if i import it, and then years later query 'origin' of something, it only can trace back to my own genesis. and not to birth.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-18 20:58 mircea_popescu: consider concretely the case of eucrypt's keccak. diana_coman is writing it as a direct derivation off genesis, meaning on extant v impls if one wanted to import it they could import JUST it, without the rest of eucrypt (it'll be pulled in later through the usual procedure in eucrypt itself). superficially this may seem like it encourages phf to go "o i know, i'll just link keccak patch into my codebase rather than regring (i
mircea_popescu: diana_coman obviously ; but the trick is that "meat" also means dick.
asciilifeform: the only organ made of meat!11
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there is no such birth. all words are is empty coin, long bereft of any original gold, all that's left is the congeal spit of successive generations. thesis is in some trilema somwwhere
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: there is no way to weasel out of the fact that the info is available, but simply ignored by ineptly made vtron.
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, everything also means dick or cunt, depending on pov
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform show me this.
asciilifeform: will show, after tea , brb
diana_coman: see, there is also tea which is pointedly not meat!!
mircea_popescu: that's when he meditates over the leaves.
asciilifeform: re earlier item -- if i want to demonstrate that 'alf's exceptional exsudator' consists of diana_coman's magic prime number maker, all 100,000 ln of it verbatim, plus 5 ln of asciilifeform's , this is now a proposition that has to be proven manually. whereas theoretically it is a mechanically resolvable q.
asciilifeform: and therefore ought to be resolvable mechanically as part of ordinary v operation.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-18 22:09 diana_coman: see, there is also tea which is pointedly not meat!!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there is no such "ghost of moses in the letters".
mircea_popescu: the only one who can decide that two texts are the same text is one versed in the text. that's why they even needed fucking monks in the first place.
asciilifeform: can proclaim 'there is not' all you like. my copy of diff still works.
mircea_popescu: in the same sense your copy of patent medicine still works.
mircea_popescu: yes -- it does work, in the way such works work.
mircea_popescu: then you bite the subtle bugs resulting from subtle manipulations of state at the outskirts, which is what nsa rats live off of.
asciilifeform: if 2 strings are bitwise-identical -- they are the same. if mircea_popescu in his own house insists that trained gurlz with magnifying glasses compare them, before he will consider them to be same, that is his biznis
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: nope. you find the subtle-manipulators and string'em up.
mircea_popescu: two bitwise-identical strings are not thereby the same thing.
asciilifeform: and nomoar 'subtle'-anythings at the edges.
mircea_popescu: if i say it -- it's a thing. if not.. hurr.
asciilifeform: afaik the 'idiot comes up with worthwhile item by accident' is a wholly imaginary problem. never seems to actually happen.
trinque: ahembitcoinahem
asciilifeform: trinque: entirely conceivable that it was an edison-like production
asciilifeform: ( the 1 item d00d actually came up with, phonograph, was made by hired hands. the man could not machine to save his life )
asciilifeform: the 'bitcoin by lone idiot' model cannot be ruled out , but nothing requires us to eat it by default.
mircea_popescu: but this happens all the fucking time right here, too! take the... well i can't fucking find it now, but there's a line in the log where phf goes "hey, your trying to do the mp rant comes out short, you;'re not mp". why the fuck not! had all the bits!!1
mircea_popescu: it happens A LOT more often than you count.
asciilifeform: evidently not-all, neh
mircea_popescu: all is an undefined symbol here.
asciilifeform: i'ma approach from different angle : mircea_popescu , what do you think is the advantage of v over mere pile of signed tars ?
asciilifeform: the only thing it's got, is the deltas. and i can't see why they shouldn't 'go back to moses' if this is physically possible.
asciilifeform: at the same time i dun think that i actually disagree with mircea_popescu re the granularity. we don't have the tech to make granularity 'at procedure level' work.
asciilifeform: i'd like to revisit upstack , http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-18#1772421 << this is somewhat of a misconception. asciilifeform did not salivate over a 'programmer's paradise' when wrote v. on the contrary. v , as he pictured it, is a weapon of rodenticidal war. specifically to ferret out and neutralize not only the compromised people, but the politically unreliable and the dubious of whatever type. hence the focus on attribution, and
a111: Logged on 2018-01-18 20:07 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform quite evident ; but yes, i believe wrong problem to solve. "oh lord, how could bits of code have an identity ?" "why ?" "so they could be my girflriends" "Come on!"
asciilifeform: the desire to abolish cutandpasteism.
asciilifeform: hence design decisions like http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771908 . the expectation is that the dubious people who 'live on the edges', are GONE.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 19:35 asciilifeform: apeloyee: see the quite 'flammable' log from that thread. i put the burden of correct operation ~100% on the human operator.
asciilifeform: and anybody found 'edging' is held to answer.
asciilifeform: cutandpasteism makes muddled authorship socially acceptable, and this in fact is what rats feed on.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform for one thing, v is a structured pile of signed tars.
asciilifeform: may as well also say 'of bytes' lol
mircea_popescu: of words.
asciilifeform: it ain't the sum of the parts.
mircea_popescu: no text is the "Sum" of its parts in any rigurously definition of sum.
asciilifeform: dunno, redditola comes close
mircea_popescu: note that you specifically want ~sources~ not binaries. why ?
asciilifeform: deltas.
asciilifeform: ~minimal~ deltas.
mircea_popescu: "oh, more readable". this is bs, hence all your comments about "disasm" throughout up to today.
asciilifeform: disasms are actually a bitch to diff.
asciilifeform: even when they differ by 1bit.
mircea_popescu: the only true knowledge of the machine's view is the binary. but you are not interested in that, you are interested in intension and a particular sort of meaning,
asciilifeform: interested in the most compact accessible diff representation.
asciilifeform: whichever that happens to be.
mircea_popescu: rather, interested in the most compact notation of intent
mircea_popescu: as opposed to most accurate description of function.
asciilifeform: ( compactness both of the diff and of the wholes that were diffed. )
mircea_popescu: as a subpoint, it is true copy/pasteism makes muddled "authorship" socially acceptable, and this is a great thing, and the perfect bullet to kill usg."intellectual property" with ; but it does NOT make responsibility any weaker, and thereby feeds no rats.
asciilifeform: this is the part i dunget.
mircea_popescu: i will not care one wit whether author of package i use copied or wrote offending bit. signed it -- that's that.
asciilifeform: all muddles feed rats.
mircea_popescu: if this were true nuclear reactors would be fulla rats. they... aren't. gluon muddle, and yet...
asciilifeform: precisely because they dilute the responsibility.
asciilifeform: the 1 usg mole who inserts boobytrap, and the 15 chekists who failed to find him, in my book do NOT have equal responsibility.
mircea_popescu: why do you imagine you'd even see all of these ?
asciilifeform: the 15 are to answer for ~their~ sin.
mircea_popescu: the 2 who failed to find, whom you rated, you unrate.
mircea_popescu: this system is designed to work well, not to work thoroughly. it requires no such panopticonism as you envisage.
asciilifeform: well in cutandpasteism world, there is not 1 mole and 15 chekists. there are 16 signers, is all.
mircea_popescu: quite so.
asciilifeform: if you refuse to distinguish authorship from signature.
asciilifeform: and this is The Wrong Thing.
mircea_popescu: and whenever someone signs something not-good, ima have their head.
asciilifeform: i'd rather have 1 usg head and 15 living friends.
mircea_popescu: this is a hallucinated counterworld.
asciilifeform: all hypothetical worlds are hallucinated, lol
mircea_popescu: yes but the problem with this one is that it is fundamentally incompatible with reality.
asciilifeform: howssat
mircea_popescu: how do you propose to distinguish one among the 16 ?
asciilifeform: 1 originated. the rest not.
mircea_popescu: this is like saying "moses fingered one". the idea is, something within your hand, not some sort of religious fiction.
asciilifeform: mr.x signed 'i wrote ....' , 15 checkists signed 'i witness thereby that mr.x last night had wrote...'
asciilifeform: the time parameter is real.
asciilifeform: one's a sig, 15 are sigs of a sig.
asciilifeform: physically separable entities.
mircea_popescu: leaving aside the problem of time in this system, which promises to be gnarly (time where ?), would it TRULY make you feel better about systemd if the blond schmuck whose name i forget claimed alien possession ?
asciilifeform: i'm unaware of any muddle re whodunit in systemdism
asciilifeform: the perp is loud, proud.
mircea_popescu: question stands as asked.
asciilifeform: learning 'on whose orders' mole worked, is not valueless
mircea_popescu: how about this "mechanical borrowing" system you proposes ACTUALLY weakens responsibility, because the 15, instead of taking seriously their true deed, which IS in fact authorship-indistinguishable, rather aim to hide behind a claim of "hey, we merely work here, signing signatures" a sort of "well i really wanted to X and the only part Y available was Koch's so don't blame me"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there is no possibility of such learning.
asciilifeform: without attribution , it is impossible to determine who even ~is~ the mole.
mircea_popescu: or care. or in any other bakchand way re-import the empire of stupid into existence.
asciilifeform: because any given item can have 'simply appeared'
asciilifeform: the idea is to expunge anyone who so much as shows a hint of 'i merely work here', as an unreliable element.
asciilifeform: if you even have them within smelling distance, your system is broken.
mircea_popescu: what is your standard of proof anyway ? suppose x claims that koch works for weimer ; and y claims weimer works for koch. how do you distinguish these claims ?
asciilifeform: obviously can't distinguish. not unless all 3 are in the room, hanging upside down and plugged into the mains. and perhaps not even then.
mircea_popescu: so then what specifically are you trying to translate into protocol here ?
asciilifeform: what i want is more modest thing -- to know who made a particular change. in all cases.
mircea_popescu: change, yes. just not really know who made a particular genesis, is all.
mircea_popescu: the goddess made all genesises.
asciilifeform: incl the change from nonexistence.
mircea_popescu: this can not be had.
asciilifeform: in the general case, cannot
asciilifeform: in particular cases - can.
mircea_popescu: children are born out of an unamed, indistinct wall of cunt. the only point of interest is which father signed off on it.
asciilifeform pictures mircea_popescu posting from something like a beehive , on distant world
mircea_popescu: and in particular cases, you can make a note to self.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this planet ; the planet where men have tried for 50 centuries to tell the woman "make me a son, and one that's not idiotic, and not too expensive" and she brought whatever shrubbery she brought.
mircea_popescu: because... it's what it is.
asciilifeform: no but i like the image of literal wall-o-cunt, lol
trinque lost it at shrubbery
mircea_popescu: but the sheer insanity to attempt a protocol built on a knowledge that it dun work in the general case, but in some particulars. what is this, building unix ?!
asciilifeform: almost nothing is doable for general case.
asciilifeform: e.g. proving haltability.
asciilifeform: but for specific case -- doable.
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, as a matter of course, your protocol must work in all cases it purports to cover or it isn't.
asciilifeform: 'work' in this item means to provide the answer if it is available. and silence if it is not.
asciilifeform: this is an attainable thing.
mircea_popescu: it would appear to me the "copy what you want into your tree" provides exactly that.
asciilifeform: it flattens histories.
mircea_popescu: note if you will that "bubblesort", while a fully defined symbol, does not actually denote any specific implementation as such.
asciilifeform: i do not understand why histories ever must be flattened.
mircea_popescu: this turns into an interesting inverse case of "the code is not the spec", whereby... the spec is not the code.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform because in some parts they're fictitious (read : unknowable) histories.
mircea_popescu: only that can be history, which can be ascertained.
asciilifeform: neither 'is' the other. just as drawing of kalash is not a kalash, you cannot fire it. and conversely, physical, firable kalash is not the drawing, the parts are wherever they are in the tolerance range, to make more from the 1 example you will have to redraw the drawing and determine the tolerances.
mircea_popescu: but tell me asciilifeform who invented bubblesort ? who, "the egyptian" multiplication ? who, the lisp memory model ? who invented anything ?
mircea_popescu: "oh, von neumann invented the 486". really tyvm.
asciilifeform: the relationship that exists between the kalash and its drawing, is not an 'is'.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: observe that i did not ask for a v that deals in ~concepts~, only mechanisms.
asciilifeform: nobody in my lifetime will make a 'concepts v.'
mircea_popescu: so then you propose the xor variable flip was invented by whom ? what tree do i import when i do it ?
asciilifeform: it ain't an import.
mircea_popescu: what is ?
asciilifeform: nuffin in ffa is an import, in classical v, or in asciilifeform's ideal v
asciilifeform: or in any other. whole thing written from vacuum.
mircea_popescu: note though that there WERE some disputes re its utility/feasibility! that cropped up in discussion! remember ?
asciilifeform: i'll repeat, i do not ask for a v that understands 'essences' or makes any such attempt.
mircea_popescu: with what original shall the machine compare ?
mircea_popescu: you say you aren't, but...
asciilifeform: speaking strictly of text.
mircea_popescu: if your desire can't be made to work in elementary cases, how would it work at all, is the bojum here. what, xor assignment gets a free pass, but "any program longer than 6 lines magically becomes attributable" ?>
asciilifeform: it gets attributed if it previously appeared under a signature somewhere.
asciilifeform: and if not, not. that simple.
mircea_popescu: the ~type~ of problem that cropped up with the xor assignment (whereby -- careful at context X might shoot self in foot) is ~exactly~ and with no remainder the type of problem we are fighting, whereby "oh, this ssl totally works for rsa, except... when it does not"
asciilifeform: as i said to apeloyee, in NO case can it be guaranteed that the parts cannot be cut up and re-sewn into a subtly broken shape.
asciilifeform: hence why i sign the whole, and not 'routine'
mircea_popescu: there is no implicit attribution of text ~specifically because~ there is no ghost of moses caught in the letters anymore than there's soul intertwined in the brain.
asciilifeform: and i will say, ftr, that invocation of ANY ffa components on ANY overlapping segments, is an abuse. and there is not in fact any way to guarantee correctness , if such a thing is permissible.
mircea_popescu: say it in the fucking comments of ffa, not here, at that.
mircea_popescu: what literate code is all about, nothing keeps you from putting a philosophy.preamble file in there.
asciilifeform: it is going into ch8
mircea_popescu: on the exact contrary, everyone wants nothing else.
asciilifeform: previously thought that it was obvious.
mircea_popescu: that's kinda how that goes.
mircea_popescu: and, back to the trunk, we've not even discussed the horror of translation. suppose you write a thing, in ada. suppose another, who works on a lisp tree, takes your thing and identically translates it to lisp (here defined, that on any correct machine his code will in all cases behave indentically to yours). what's your v to do here ?
asciilifeform: nothing!
asciilifeform: how many time do i gotta say it, i do not ask for a concepts-v.
asciilifeform: text-v strictly.
mircea_popescu: suppose yet another one takes your thing, fixes a bug, and says "this genesis also includes exactly alf's thing verbatim, except for this subtle bug i fixed". thereby... these are different, yes ?
mircea_popescu: man saying "this is of x" is the only marginal history available here.
asciilifeform: different if the difference can be written as a program.
asciilifeform: which i am satisfied performs the requisite diff and comes up with the expected answer.
asciilifeform: the 'includes verbatim' proposition is mechanically answerable.
asciilifeform: anything pertaining to 'conceptual' identities --- is not.
mircea_popescu: paternity is purely conventional in this strong sense. among us, we may think r,s & a invented rsa. among some gray beards somewhere else, they may well know better.
asciilifeform: ( as per chaitin et al )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: which is why i won't touch concepts-paternity.
asciilifeform: strings strictly.
mircea_popescu: yes, but the code we review is not strictly speaking text.
mircea_popescu: i can't be the only one who translates code as a routine attempt at understanding wtf.
asciilifeform: i'm pretty curious nao what this looks like in typical practice
mircea_popescu: what do you mean "what it looks like". it looks like, say, v!
mircea_popescu: "code your own", why is that even there.
asciilifeform: no, the 'translate code in attempt to understand' item
mircea_popescu has been encouraging people to do just that since just about its inception
asciilifeform: it is not actually clear to asciilifeform that code ~can~ be properly speaking translated.
asciilifeform: consider a translation of ffa to c
mircea_popescu: well, the attempt to translate v proved itself extremely productive neh.
asciilifeform: from certain pov it is 'same', but if you were to change ANYTHING -- you can now get segfault. whereas in original, it was not physically possible.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: because it was reimplementation, rather than translation.
mircea_popescu: and yet a bundle of c that produces exact same binary as your ada compiler does -- could be written
mircea_popescu: (for a better c complier, less "optimizing" at least)
asciilifeform: there's at least 1 lisptron that actually worked this way
asciilifeform: (iirc 'chicken')
mircea_popescu: so, yes, ~can~.
asciilifeform: the result, however, is not in any sense 'translation', it is more of a compilation.
mircea_popescu: would look like all gnarl, but anyway.
asciilifeform: the output cannot be for any practical purpose worked with human hands.
asciilifeform: sorta the situation for which we even have word 'compilation'
asciilifeform: in re proggy.
mircea_popescu: exactly like that.
asciilifeform: and incidentally whenever i translate something to engl , from ~anything else, ~same flavour.
mircea_popescu: yes, well, computer languages are supposed to not do that.
asciilifeform: i must've missed this memo.
mircea_popescu: but of the crooked timber...
asciilifeform: because they not only do it, but exaggeratedly, cartoon-coloured, do it.
mircea_popescu: if they were properly orthogonal-ized they would not, is the whole idea.
asciilifeform: upstack re the impossibility of translating the safety of an ada program's nearby-modifications-phasespace to c -- i suspect that mircea_popescu's thesis re 'files are not separate units' not only is troo, but does not go far enuff :
asciilifeform: program is not meaningfully separable from ~all~ of the necessary parts to make it go.
mircea_popescu: sadly this is likely so.
asciilifeform: compiler, etc., machine.
asciilifeform: there is 'edge space', as things are , also there.
mircea_popescu: for instance -- leaky machine will make your rsa impl leak
asciilifeform: consider every other week somebody shows up with 'i have gnat 2014 and...'
mircea_popescu: we are currently handwaving this, but it's there alright.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: for some value of 'leaky machine' , quite obviously will
asciilifeform: maybe it broadcasts every cpu register on 'voice of america', who knows
asciilifeform: somebody, somewhere, has such a machine.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-18#1772646 << invented mergesort, to do the man justice.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-18 23:29 mircea_popescu: "oh, von neumann invented the 486". really tyvm.
mircea_popescu: who even knows this, left as separate issue.
asciilifeform: i'll give concrete example. :
asciilifeform: the use of comba , and in fact of ANY multiplier that compiles into having a x86 MUL instruction anywhere in it, is unsafe on intel celeron. and ppc32. and possibly ppc64.
asciilifeform: they shortcut-on-zero when MULing.
asciilifeform: only egyptological mul can be used on such machines.
mircea_popescu: an example of plenty available.
asciilifeform: ( preferably if you have such a machine -- throw it out!! now! )
mircea_popescu: btw, apropos of unrelated ancient thread : does your hatred of cyclotrons extend to desy as well ? no gluons for you ?
mircea_popescu: (before the large cern one, a smaller all-german item existed, proved most of modern physics, including all sorts of quark properties, laid the groundwork for eventual finding of top quark, etc)
asciilifeform: not so much even that 'hate', but observed that current-day practitioners are proliferators of factolade, and not unifiers.
asciilifeform: the troo wothy, is the man who SHRINKS the textbook.
mircea_popescu: desy is perhaps the golden age of german science, and rather inseparable in any case.
asciilifeform: i respect folx who do honest work, even on particle zoos. just as i respect that cataloguers of rare birds in the jungle ; it is not a wholly pointless thing. but it is not comparable to heaviside, who walked into a room with 22 equations and came out with 4.
asciilifeform: ( incidentally there is -- imho wholly without merit -- a school of physical-crackpotteristic thought that holds that he botched the job. )
mircea_popescu: yes well.
asciilifeform: oh hey in the new mircea_popescu article : the item re 'cruise ship'. asciilifeform confesses, he never understood what is the appeal
asciilifeform: why put a shit hotel on a boat ?
mircea_popescu: "if the nazis come -- can sail away" "really bitch ? never heard of uboats ?" "THOSE WOULD BE ILLEGAL"
mircea_popescu: such an utterly fragile item your eyes water, like from onion.
asciilifeform: speaking of current-day cruiseship chumpatron
asciilifeform: what's the draw ?
asciilifeform: lotta chumps seem to reliably sign up
mircea_popescu: item is 1950s revival of pre 1915 extant item with utility (cross the atlantic pleasantly)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform lotta chumpsteins and chumpstein-wannabes.
asciilifeform: well in 1915 it was 'cross with minimal pain', sorta like the $5k plus 1stclass chair on modern air liner
mircea_popescu: kinda ended by 1915, but yes in 1890 absolutely.
asciilifeform: whereas the airliner equiv to the cruise would be to buy a 1stclass ticket to go nowhere in particular, in a circle
asciilifeform: not even getting out of the plane
asciilifeform: i could even see the appeal if the plane were e.g. a mig, and does immelmans.
mircea_popescu: there's a certain "cramped spaces and highschool-ariline boarding security" nazism reinstatement that is appealing to a certain sort of person.
asciilifeform: but would you on airbus ? and who would, and why.
asciilifeform: hm so b&d-istic hypothesis ?
mircea_popescu: mostly, people who got it hammered into childhood that they suck for hating the peas, because their grandaunt edsel died in whichever camp
asciilifeform: i ain't got a better one. it'd make sense.
mircea_popescu: i'm telling you, cruise is jewsanity.
mircea_popescu: "city on a hill. of froth."
mircea_popescu: (for the needs of this exercise, the unitarian ustards are jew-wannabes.)
asciilifeform: i dunno if anyone alive today knows what actual j00z looked like.
asciilifeform: they got thermonuked
asciilifeform: like the proper-penguin.
asciilifeform: did mircea_popescu ever write about, incidentally, penguin ?
asciilifeform: how the name of the misfortunate bird, was recycled.
mircea_popescu: that it got replaced ? im sure it's a mention here and there in the log
asciilifeform: must be.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771980 << fine example of the context problem. "yes, i have the chip" "so what can you do ?" "nothing."
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 20:11 asciilifeform: ( or what it expects to find on the bus, or almost anything else )
asciilifeform: aaalmost nothing.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771984 << the mechanism are "only the files named may exist".
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 20:13 apeloyee: I proposed being able to name arbitrary required antecedents << also probably needs a mechanism to declare "there are no other files in the tree"
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771985 << i don't understand where the extra mass comes from iyo. in the trinque solution, one extra file'd have been gaining a total of count-patches lines. ook ?
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 20:14 asciilifeform: apeloyee: look at the trb tree, and picture what the mass of the patches would have been, if this requirement had been in effect when i made it.
asciilifeform: i'ma come back to this item when trinquetronic v is available
asciilifeform: practical demonstration beats hypotheticals.
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2018/and-another-day-dawns-or-multipicture-megapost/ << Trilema - And another day dawns, or Multipicture Megapost
asciilifeform: 'Full rubber tyres, no inflation at all. Yes, exactly like in the toy items we had as children. Progress, you see,' << this is coming. possibly already deployed on 'upscale' americars.
mircea_popescu: "let's use everything exactly contrary to its utility envelope"
mircea_popescu: anyway, i ordered the creation of special proper tyres for myself only. and it shall be done.
mircea_popescu: and what people who aren't imperial majesties themselves will do i have nfi.
asciilifeform: pretty sure you can get tubed tires in usa.
asciilifeform: lotta vintage car aficionado folx here.
asciilifeform: ( and motorcycle , tractor, bus , tire -- still tubed afaik errywhere )
mircea_popescu: !#s "LARP"
mircea_popescu: did i at some point know what larping means ?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1772007 <<< they went to "social media" aka sv wankpost rather than eg, came here, for a reason, after all.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 20:32 fromloper: yeah, somehow a lot of potentially interesting people on social media end up mostly posting this kind of crap
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 20:43 fromloper: so there is at least one possible address, gotta try it
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1772041 << quite this. symbolics had the distinction of marketing inept to the amplitude of apple's, except negative.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 20:47 asciilifeform: to be fair the company was not really a honest commercial co, moar like one of those unofficial usg research institutes, they proliferated under reagan and died with him
shinohai: Heh, curious you mention that about tires, never thought of it until now mircea_popescu, but bicycle wheels are the only place you can still get an inner tube afaik.
shinohai: (in latest trilema)
mircea_popescu: ill get tubes in whatever the fuck i fucking want them. but yes, they try not to sell them anymore.
mircea_popescu: "let's make proper car behave more like electric if we can';t make electric ever be proper car"
mircea_popescu: i want 200km pitstops for the car like i want fat old women in my livingroom.
asciilifeform: somehow asciilifeform's tyres hold pressure for yr+
asciilifeform: ( and yes i have a manometer , and one of those small pumps )
asciilifeform: possibly because asciilifeform drives on asphalt, and not jungle ? nfi
mircea_popescu: well... car spent one hour on asphaltless road, lost two tyres. not fucking acceptabru.
mircea_popescu: granted, the idiots here are something else -- they did everything up to but excluding the asphalt cover. an exercise in "how to spend 95% of the cost to get 3% of the benefit"
asciilifeform: the 1 item that still ~worx to spec in usa : roads. sorta like bread in ye olde su. it is a symbol of imperial 'mandate of heaven'
mircea_popescu: already crumbling at the edges.
asciilifeform: always ~was~ dodgy at the edges
shinohai: Drive through rural Alabama sometimes.
mircea_popescu: at some point empire gave up on budgets ; more recently, it gave up on maintenance -- most bridges did not pass for years and now are noit even inspected anymore.
asciilifeform: but typical 'coast' amerid00d gives exactly 0 fucks what the roads, or bread, or anything , are like in oklahomistan.
asciilifeform: may as well be afganistan.
mircea_popescu: go, ask for bridge inspection records of bridge/county of your choice, be amazed.
mircea_popescu: amusingly, the romans also regularly inspected, for 90% of their history, both bridges and aqueducts (not so different in ther practice, items). stopped late 300s.
asciilifeform: muchly depends where. literally few blox from asciilifeform , bridge is being recemented. and not far from there, a brand new one built.
asciilifeform: but easily can believe that in walmartfuckistan -- not inspected.
mircea_popescu: o, building they do. maintenance, not so much.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1772096 << that contract is worth ~diddly squat. iirc the (utterly unimpressive) fiatola figures were quoted in log.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 21:24 asciilifeform: * all gov contracts
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: possibly moar under the table
mircea_popescu: this is about as likely as imagining john kerry is a better dresser at home than when sardined with orcs for publicity photos.
mircea_popescu: does that ancient cretinetti still exist btw ?
asciilifeform: asciilifeform doesn't get real time reportz on his desk when they croak..
mircea_popescu: his ~10 mn retirement went to a home in martha's vineyard and supposedly some memoirs to come.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1772104 << they were young and stupid yet.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 21:33 trinque: if so, how did folks this corrupt build anything worth having?
mircea_popescu: there's a natural tendency to do the right thing that needs lengthy and elaborate stamping out before you get the full blown jwz.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 21:41 asciilifeform: 'Cyber space is an increasingly risky discourse and therefore will inevitably be securitised.' << exactly what i said: usg stuffed shirt.
mircea_popescu: dude... nobody gives a shit now, ever will, or ever fucking has given a shit about your retarded usg idiocy. wake up and smell the coffee, jesus fucking christ, it's like watching imbecile african mamies with dirty bare feet and stupid headgarbs drone importantly about what-they-remember the preacher said in church.
mircea_popescu: amberglint, eh ?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1772185 << teh process of effervescent vitriol that passes for review here + the natural intimidatiacy result in very finely polished items, to my delight.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 22:23 amberglint: haven't had any issues with it, it's very handy
asciilifeform: in other folx who apparently had gone fullbore usgtard since i last looked : lubos motl. e.g. https://motls.blogspot.com/2018/01/korean-backlash-to-planned-bitcoin.html .
danielpbarron: !!pay Birdman 0.05
asciilifeform: 'The ISPs and commercial banks are parts of the capitalist economy and a systemic attack against them is obviously a systemic attack against capitalism – real-world capitalism – as such. Maybe it's because my position in the formative years – I considered myself a builder of the new capitalist economy including the old-fashioned brick-and-mortar commercial banks – but I just wouldn't hesitate for a second whom I root for in t
asciilifeform: his apparent conflict between the regular banks and meaningless cryptocurrency exchanges; in the conflict between the system with regular banks that has worked for centuries and an ideologically driven replacement that isn't used in the real legal economy because it obviously cannot work well...' etc
asciilifeform: didjaknow.
asciilifeform: from his commentreplies, also gold, e.g. '...People who despise Western national fiat currencies are dirty fucked-up commies of the same kind that has plundered my country. I just won't ever support their goal, they're scum for me. Do you get it? Relatively to these important things, whether the replacement is called Ripple or Rouble is just a technicality. It's the same shit except that rouble actually works as a viable currency for
asciilifeform: the economy while Ripple or the Bitcoin doesn't.'
asciilifeform: didjaalsoknow.
asciilifeform: this d00d fills a previously-unfilled hole, gotta be , 'bitcoin as bolshevism'
mircea_popescu: wasn't ever much more than alt-flavour "rational" w/e pantsuit flavour
mircea_popescu: ~same gallery as curtis yarvin & co.
asciilifeform: i had this vague memory that he used to write about physics
asciilifeform: currently ~100% usg talkingpoints re btc.
mircea_popescu: they all parasitize some topic or other. obama is a constitutional law scholar or how did it go.
mircea_popescu very much will refuse to consider random fucktards who spent 2012 going "oh, who pays for mpex seats" in the hope that "hey, i'll weasel my way back in through peripheral commentary anyway"
mircea_popescu: it's little more than a restatement of ye olde, dearest dream of all nigger, "we'll get in later anyway:"
mircea_popescu: no, you fucking wont.
mircea_popescu: but all the pretense that "today matters -- after all i was born", as if this isn't well settled 2014 fare, and http://trilema.com/2014/an-era-ends-today-a-new-era-starts-today/ never occured, and so on... he's really REALLY late to the max keiser show.
mircea_popescu: whatever, whoever is dumb enough to imagine john smith invented religion is called "ustard" for a reason.
asciilifeform: linked strictly for the flavour of crackpottery afaik not seen elsewhere, 'imaginary 1950s Greatest Generation anticommie usa' vs 'bolshevik bitcoin'
mircea_popescu: "Tony told me I was a statist because I am a critic of the Bitcoin. Tony isn't the only man who has raised this accusation."
mircea_popescu: fucking tony. to quote from recent trilema, "And obviously it will then become, suddenly and unexplainably, a "native" topic of conversation ailleurs, specifically in such ESL ailleurs as may "coincidentally" but necessarily "forget" to mention where they even discovered this may be a topic of conversation in the first place. Oy vey.."
mircea_popescu: inb4 "tony told me today something about sex with girls under 12" in another decade or so.
asciilifeform: i suspect that most of these folx are.. physiologically incapable of touching a subj that hasn't been tonywashed.
mircea_popescu: anyway. dork imagines he has some sort of cachet, exactly like orlov, exactly like all the branding idiots. what keeps eg http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=from%3Aweev from productive obedience is exactly the same fundamental problem.
mircea_popescu: like the unhappy girls of usgistan, these misfortunate trannies imagine they "have the options" etc.
asciilifeform: for so long as the cheques come in the mail, d00d can imagine whatever he likes, neh
mircea_popescu: it's a cheap if useless mental trick, very substantially the same as http://trilema.com/2014/agency-and-other-notes/#selection-31.0-37.0 ; a certain sort of safe (ie, improductive) activity as a cover for impotence.
mircea_popescu: i suspect the "inteligentsia" as it dreams itself has meanwhile redefined intellectual discourse to equate the above wank.
mircea_popescu: it's still wank.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the cheques consisting of remarkably very little. most of these hopefuls live in the most abject poverty, made palatable to them by their idiocy and the abject poverty surrounding every aspect of their life.
mircea_popescu: but yes, broadly speaking, who has any interest in them and their flow of made for tv snacks.
asciilifeform: i have deeply nfi. for all i know motl lives in luxury.
mircea_popescu: not the parsimonious hypothesis.
asciilifeform: why does he fellate 'the west' then.
mircea_popescu: for all you know, orlov lives on a moored boat, and this dood lives in rms's quarters.
asciilifeform: typical su physics cabbie in nyc does not fellate it.
mircea_popescu: this is like asking "why does monkey shoot kalash".
mircea_popescu: it was there.
mircea_popescu: i have no idea why rational behaviour would be expected, or rational explanation for misbehaviour would be demanded of items that clearly lack either agency or reflective capacity.
mircea_popescu: in what way do you feel closer to this particular item of furniture than to your own chair ?
asciilifeform: both chair and czech idjit can be modeled as mechanism.
mircea_popescu: you actually suspect motl can think in any sense different from fg plugged in can think ? why ?
asciilifeform: 'think' is not the word.
mircea_popescu: but you're not frankly sitting there and asking for explanation of perceived patterns in fg output.
mircea_popescu: he's saying the things that could be said, some fraction thereof, as a function of the possibility of saying and no more. other exactly identical items are saying other fractions, and will continue to do so. to credit this is that long discussed error, http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-17#1523269
a111: Logged on 2016-08-17 17:02 mircea_popescu: Framedragger the reason there's a lot of credence in phf's perhaps harsh criticism is http://trilema.com/2014/how-to-make-money-on-the-internet-while-pretending-you-know-what-youre-talking-about-and-accumulating-a-legion-of-mindless-followers-for-fun-and-profit/
asciilifeform: if i observed an actual ( per http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-23#1660274 thread ) , vs merely hallucinated -- would demand explanation yes
a111: Logged on 2017-05-23 02:46 asciilifeform: but to display ~existing~ test failures in predictor-algorithm form
asciilifeform: *actual pattern
mircea_popescu: it's only a pattern as an artefact of a short section selected.
mircea_popescu: this is why on the long term they always either "delete" their blogs to start over, or else become insanely trite (and then "give up").
asciilifeform: this particular d00d has been at it for a while.
asciilifeform: dun seem to show any signs of exhaustion.
mircea_popescu: yarvin opted for the latter ; this one may be too thick to notice yet, or whatever, i've not looked.
mircea_popescu: or of saying anything useful or meaningful, either. orlov similar example, but at least he cycles the topics. one day -- expert on boats, next day -- expert on firearms, on it goes.
mircea_popescu: this schmuck apparently changed physics for bitcoin you say ? a well.
mircea_popescu: recall at some point was some pompous asshole locklin, "scientist" ? there's no end conceivable of supply. once one swallows the "always has choice" usg pill, that one becomes this. it's inescapable.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-31 16:27 mircea_popescu: the important point here is that there can be NO retrospective read of the history of ideas in any actual discipline that is both a) longer than epsilon and b) fails to discover the PRINCIPAL bar to discovery is personal dishonesty.
mircea_popescu: same problem manifests with the pantsuit mendacious little shits as with any larger system built on the same basis.
asciilifeform: motl is not a meat rng tho. d00d suffers from a clearly identifiable fixation, 'the west' (tm)(r) where there is a 'capitalism' (tm)(r)
asciilifeform: defined, naturally, circularly
mircea_popescu: when you say "not meat rng", how do you base this ?
mircea_popescu: because it seems to me you just said he is.
asciilifeform: because oscillator.
mircea_popescu: i don't get it ?
asciilifeform: it's an arse-mouth hose. 'west' is where 'capitalism', 'capitalism' is what they do in 'west'.
mircea_popescu: so this definitionally makes him a meat rng then ?
asciilifeform: meat oscillator.
mircea_popescu: but any implemented oscillator is a... rng ?
asciilifeform: if you like, rng with clearly visible spectral peak.
asciilifeform: it ain't an rng if i can compress the output .
asciilifeform: not one that you'd want to use as an rng, at any rate.
mircea_popescu: what is it, i don't get it. yes, but that's evidently not the interesting part nor can it. hence the original, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-19#1772909
a111: Logged on 2018-01-19 02:12 mircea_popescu: this is why on the long term they always either "delete" their blogs to start over, or else become insanely trite (and then "give up").
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, he's evidently not useful. but he's not a logic gate, either. he's certainly not human. the fundamental identification/classification of "i will deliver result X through randomly chosen path each time" is... rng. at least to my mind.
asciilifeform: i meant in the sense where e.g. the clock crystal on the fg, is not itself an rng. even tho it has jitter.
asciilifeform: but yes.
asciilifeform: did not link motl as 'useful, no.
mircea_popescu: you ~use it~ as a clock crystal. but what it is... well... it's actually a rng.
asciilifeform: in the sense where my chair is rng.
mircea_popescu: your usage of it is defensible, but to declare it a clock seems a little much.
asciilifeform: ( if i knock it down, i cannot immediately say how it will fall... )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform which was the source of my original, "how do you distinguish this item of furniture from your chair"
mircea_popescu: precisely so.
mircea_popescu: it's certainly ~NOT HUMAN~.
asciilifeform: motl is a loaded die tho. q is, loaded how. and does it have clinical implications for others.
mircea_popescu: if you say something to mp, you also can't immediately say what he'll respond, but this is actually interesting, as opposed to the clock jitter, mechanical jumps of chair etc.
mircea_popescu: you can\'t say how it'll fall but you can say it won't fall a beehive.
asciilifeform: whereas when i say 'this box is oscillator' it has a rigorous meaning. it means that i can draw the spectrum, and it is peaky.
mircea_popescu can't summon the interest in the instant case, but by all means.
asciilifeform: i dunno that we actually disagree, lol
mircea_popescu: i dun think we do.
mircea_popescu: just different levels of lazy, as i'm not done with log yet and you are lol.
mircea_popescu: possibly also i'm like... hey, i recall this idiocy from 2012, seriously rando just discovered bitcoin today, is retracing 2012 with all the ingenuity of virgin at the altar ? how fucking endearing, /sarcasm
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1772202 << i would not go as far, theoretical physics.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 22:29 asciilifeform: aha. mircea_popescu also at one time was a maths man.
mircea_popescu: can prolly tell by the very functional-analytic and numeric methods bent ; and by the set-theoretic underlying representations.
mircea_popescu: whereas most serious math people of my generation are from topology and the rest of the doomed attempts to resurect the beauty of geometry.
mircea_popescu: speaking of which, recently /me introduced briefly phuctor to whitebeard, mentioned bernstein smooth integers speedup, got very confused headshake and an invitation to point to where did this wonder happen ?! in s. n. bernstein book. "not that one, a newer one, american" "oh."
mircea_popescu: apparently did some work on smoothness, i had nfi, but anyway.
asciilifeform: briefly to return to http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-19#1772934 , what motl and most other similar are, is precisely this : the unwanted oscillator. ever see a street lamp that flickered, on, off, on , off
a111: Logged on 2018-01-19 02:22 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, he's evidently not useful. but he's not a logic gate, either. he's certainly not human. the fundamental identification/classification of "i will deliver result X through randomly chosen path each time" is... rng. at least to my mind.
asciilifeform: or washing machine walking across a room
asciilifeform: or a defective rng. or hell knows just about every broken-but-running mechanism.
mircea_popescu: or, for that matter, fg. it's how it fucking works, on, off, on...
asciilifeform: again , the diff is in the spectra.
mircea_popescu: but yes, once they invested in the aproiori fixed point, they can only walk around the room.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes, one is good and the other not so good. no argument.
asciilifeform: i have yet to meet the man who ~wanted~ to be oscillator tho.
asciilifeform: it is a thing that they end up . but nobody sets out to.
mircea_popescu: every indian ever set out to, as far as i know.
asciilifeform: but folx working with contradictory priors are doomed to oscillate. at least if they're serious.
mircea_popescu: it's a very third worldy thing, to want to be the sad horse turning around the peg. so much so they actually sell this insanity here, as toys.
mircea_popescu: onward hops the plastic horse, and there's a circle of dirt under its feet on the wooden square...
asciilifeform: hey if dressed up a bit, sells just as well in usa -- arsebook 'games' etc
mircea_popescu: nepenthe, you know, the one item that was ever in true demand.
asciilifeform: 'chukcha wrote a book. we open the book: pg 1: 'man got on a horse.' pg . N : 'man got off horse' pg . 2 .. N-1 : 'tgdyk, tgdyk, tdgyk...' '
mircea_popescu: i had no idea this is how you say horse gallop in russian. it's same in romanian too!
asciilifeform: yea holyfuq i had nfi that the 8legged 'horses' on romars also tgdyk'd !11!
mircea_popescu: tîgdîc-tîgdîc
asciilifeform: btw is it tru re the î
asciilifeform: that the 'â turns into î when beginning or end of word' was only Officially Proclaimed in... 1990
asciilifeform: why not just ы like sane folx!11
mircea_popescu: "so as tyo make it moar latin". as fucking if, and etcetera.
asciilifeform: lol if even the english threw out their, e.g., thorn , to 'be moar latin'.
mircea_popescu: they... did.
mircea_popescu: also did some stuff to be more greek...
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform damn, tyou got it backwards. ~î~ is to turn into the previously never used â inside words. (previously, only usage of â was for România. but rather than JUST TAKE THE DAMNED THING OUT ALTOGETHER they ... contrived to "make use")
asciilifeform: oh hah.
mircea_popescu: for a long time the country's name was written in the japanese style, http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-03#1513931
a111: Logged on 2016-08-03 15:40 phf: the whole font changes meaning take two is coming from the japanese. they were actively promoting this idea back during early unicode standardization days, where there was a strong drive to include every idiosyncratic version of kanji in the standard, because "that's how my family writes it in our last name".
mircea_popescu: thje logical step was to just get rid of it altogether.
asciilifeform: surreal. gotta wonder from where the item even came.
mircea_popescu: the insanity of using two different letters for the exact same item ... but anyway.
asciilifeform: incidentally, i picked up a lulb00k from a bankrupt shop , 'молдавский язык' , chisinau , 1990 . even has 'history' intro. guess of what country, 0 mention.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform http://trilema.com/2011/grafia-istorica-a-limbii-romane/ << review item depicted on right
mircea_popescu: ima guess... russia.
asciilifeform: lolromania
asciilifeform: picture this.
mircea_popescu: so how do they explain stephen, afaik he's like, object of cult there.
mircea_popescu: greek originally ?
asciilifeform: martians, apparently, dropped moldavia, fully formed.
mircea_popescu: some history book.
asciilifeform: if one had to go from this book.
mircea_popescu: page 1 : moldavia isn't. page 300 : moldavia is. rest of pages...
asciilifeform: well it's a language thing.
asciilifeform: but even so.
mircea_popescu: lemme fish this thing out
asciilifeform: most preciously, in intro, 'moldavian is a language quite like other foreign languages you may have learned, such as french, spanish, italian...'
asciilifeform: not in the list : ro
asciilifeform: from pov of author, it NeverHappened..
mircea_popescu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWcs7zoR2F8 << moldavian-made lulz on same topic.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-18 14:57 asciilifeform: 'The United States federal government has paid approximately half a million dollars to a private corporation to help various agencies conduct surveillance on the Bitcoin blockchain' << pretty lulzy, that's, e.g., 3 janitors, 2 clerks, 1 intern, for 1yr
asciilifeform: yea likely exactly 1 d00d, his yacht and laughter.
mircea_popescu: hey, they paid me i dun recall how many mns exactly to fuck their mit boobs, what's another fraction.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-18#1772348 << well, i'd say ok let's take it, except for the issue where we can't actually pay them.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-18 18:48 deedbot: http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2018/01/18/datacenter-costs/ << Bingo Blog - Datacenter Costs
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo what's the trade situation there, can you get a pile of cash for btc locally ?
asciilifeform: bandwidth price looks near-orbital
asciilifeform: pretty sure e.g. inmarsat costs comparably
asciilifeform: and runs faster.
asciilifeform: e.g. '100/100 Mpbs Symmetric: 3037 USD monthly'
asciilifeform: i dun recall ever seeing a price like this outside of satellite market.
asciilifeform: come to think of it, maybe the sole connection to that cage ~is~ a sat ?!
asciilifeform: could emplace literally 10 boxes in heathendom for that bandwidth price alone. and with 100/100 (or greater) on each.
asciilifeform: it is possible that BingoBoingo is being gouged, similar to what the accountants tried to do ?
asciilifeform: 'we think that saheeb has much money, let's weld on a coupla zeros'
asciilifeform: or hm, possibly had already this thread, http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-17#1740045
a111: Logged on 2017-11-17 04:55 asciilifeform: i can picture the backroom convo, 'hey how many zeros can we glue to the gringo's price'
asciilifeform: tho i cannot immediately tell how it came out.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: how many datacentres in uruguay ? what % have you spoken to ?
asciilifeform: all 3k/100M ?!
asciilifeform bbl,meat
trinque: BingoBoingo: latechco quoted me 700 setup, 700/mo
trinque: this btw after I ignored him for a week
mod6: megal0g
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