Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2017-11-03 | 2017-11-05 → ↓
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 7194.7, vol: 16097.63245157 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 7247.2, vol: 63495.49522234 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 7190.4, vol: 4824.08706804 | Volume-weighted last average: 7233.94282429
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2017/the-cunt-off-brutti-sporchi-e-cattivi-vs-la-chiave-or-rome-and-venezia/ << Trilema - The Cunt-off : Brutti, sporchi e cattivi vs La chiave ; or Rome and Venezia
apeloyee: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-02#1732128 << correlation between signals received on two stations can reveal the fact that somebody's transmitting
a111: Logged on 2017-11-02 19:33 asciilifeform: ^ per asciilifeform's current understanding, thing is untriangulable unless enemy knows the freq keying pattern, or is standing in the near field of your transmitter.
mircea_popescu: apeloyee correlation can reveal anything one wishes it to.
mircea_popescu: in other lulz, "Die Geschichte von zwei Jungen auf trilema – ein Blog von mircea popescu. Bitcoin Bergbau auf Android"
mircea_popescu: ie, there's a dork doing great seo successes by auto-translating and republishing content.
mircea_popescu: "gotta try, man!" "it kinda might works, i think" etcetera.
asciilifeform: apeloyee: q was, is it possible to transmit in such a way that for someone without the key, there ~is~ no 'signals received'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform "british researchers" as they're known in the romanian press will receive all sorts of signals, even when no signals there.
asciilifeform: ( 1 elementary approach : carrierless transmission . )
mircea_popescu: you've seen the whole "blockchain interpretation & crystal ball" "expert services" usg spawned to date neh ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: and tesla picked up 'martians' , lol.
mircea_popescu: exactly so.
asciilifeform: concern is, it is prohibitively expensive for gestapo to search 100,000 houses. but not 10. hence 'fox hunt'.
mircea_popescu: they "decode" who paid whom when via blockchain signals, they see transmitters etc, they've "incontrovertible proof" that so and so parcel of fiatola broke the laws and so on
asciilifeform: generally with old-fashioned tech, directionfinder works.
asciilifeform: and when gestapo says 'transmitter here' and they break the door, it in fact is there.
mircea_popescu: in an idealized model.
mircea_popescu: consider the following point : the recent las vegas shooter had bought a room ; and had ferried a quarter ton of materiel up there ; and then the concert started, and he sat.
mircea_popescu: he sat and meditated.
shinohai is reminded of how the Syrians captured Eli Cohen in this thread ......
mircea_popescu: he thought to himself, is this me, is this my life ? am i not better than this perhaps ? maybe haymasfuturo ?
mircea_popescu: ONLY when some dork tried breaking in the door, ONLY, ABSOLUTELY ONLY when confronted with a hard decision did he start shooting. not before.
asciilifeform: the 'could fight to the death to defend the radio' proposition is orthogonal to the q of 'can haz pill against foxhunters' .
mircea_popescu: in fact, it is altogether likely that HADN'T there been a "hero security guard"/illegal immigrant to try and break in the door, 60 or so useless tards watching a "concert" would still be here sucking down their coca colas.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the broader point i am making is that the constraints on the gestapo are neither financial nor technological.
mircea_popescu: so, to make it perfectly plain : A. they'll break down "your" door at any point and for no reason because it's not your fucking door and they're not reasonable. B. a forty cent bullet is more effectual countermeasure than ANY amount of thought.
mircea_popescu: people get shot while the usg brown shirts are breaking in all the time ; they had no transmitters. adding one that had to this list does not raise above the statistical noise floor.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu must be one of the folx who brings own bomb on every plane, as in the famous anecdote, 'probability of 2 bombs is epsilon'
mircea_popescu: i am offering the (sadly unverifiable) proposition here that it is more likely to have your door broken into and your pet shot because "they thought tuttle lived there" a la brasil ; than because you were running a clinton-porn-pirate-radiostation and someone in usg noticed.
asciilifeform: even more likely to be run down by bus crossing the street
mircea_popescu: possibly not. bus fatalties are few.
asciilifeform: around here plenty
asciilifeform: ( though as often car as bus )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform actuary table says ~300 dead / year
asciilifeform: let's momentarily dispense with the broken doors and midnight policemen, and consider battlefield , where everybody's properly armed etc. for clarity of thought. conventional radio -- triangulable and draws accurate fire on its position. q is, can haz one that does not ? or not.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile usg criminal gang aka "law enforcement" just killed its 999th victim this year, nov 2nd. 71 yo jerry roach.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but that's the point, a battlefield where everyone was properly armed hasn't existed since the sabine "war-games" ie let's figure out who impregnates this gang of feverish sluts.
asciilifeform: ^ would be slightly moar interesting if had mug shots
mircea_popescu: has news links. good like this, no pics.
mircea_popescu: (mugshots linked from name on occasion)
mircea_popescu: "dies" "after confrontation".
asciilifeform: some % are 'assisted suicides'
mircea_popescu: i expect when i finally execute whoever's then sitting on the inca throne, they'll print "ex US president dies after MP confrontation"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform incidentally, notice how it's all males ? how about some fucking gender equality ? where's the "women in police shootings" workgroup ?
asciilifeform: ( what whatever reason, convincing police to shoot is a popular suicide method in usaschwitz. rather like it was in orig auschwitz. )
mircea_popescu: "whatever reason", yes.
asciilifeform: hey it's a pretty effective method -- entire firing squad, 'for free', on call
asciilifeform: ( in mega-b00k re 'evil fyoootoor' , 'stand on zanzibar', this process becomes a proper service, for which they charge, and you can get not only firing squad but whatever you like, burning at the stake, guillotine, etc. )
asciilifeform: incidentally phunphakt re usa : it is virtually never usg.proper that hunts for radio pirates
asciilifeform: it is normally the crown-licensed user of the 'trespassed' spectrum, who rats him out. in almost all cases on the public record -- 'licensed amateurs'
asciilifeform: they'll work for phree, for weeks, charging usg 0, to find the vreditel'
mircea_popescu: aha. sort-of like "moderators" on usg walled gardens
asciilifeform: exactly like
asciilifeform: to this day i puzzle over what is the appeal of 'licensed amateur radio'
mircea_popescu: cuckolds, dood.
asciilifeform: as i currently understand, it is a kind of primitive voice-powered usenet group, with the diff that you can get gestapo to pick up spammers
asciilifeform: there is also quite a bit of fixation, among the aficionados, on the physical process of building the radios, stringing antennae through treetops, and other minutiae.
mircea_popescu: dja recall i mocked at some point, i dun recall if here or on trilema, this wikipedia tard who posted something like "oh, i'm trying to help by being an officious intermeddler on this here admin board, until someone tells me to stop" ?
asciilifeform: exactly like the 'cypherpunks' as described by phf in old thread
mircea_popescu: many many years ago. but the item is exactly descriptive. one day, white petrus shows up at so and so office, starts picking up the trash and acting as if he works there for visitors.
asciilifeform: ( incidentally the other day asciilifeform finally met phf in meatland )
mircea_popescu: who knows, maybe this turns into a job ? if he gets ensconced neough ?
asciilifeform: was this the fetlife thing
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform actually, exactly like kanzure and friends. they've nothing to do with the topic they discuss, but they do enjoy the attention from you know, "authority".
mircea_popescu: so... nsa wants to keep in touch with the whatever community, and idle tards of ~same value as a pig their size want to be kept in touch with.
mircea_popescu: out of their happy interaction, a whole alt-world of no impact and no importance.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform nah, some wikipedia bureaucracy thing.
asciilifeform: between all of this, usg does still enforce its monopoly on long-range telecom.
mircea_popescu: i've never verified this theory.
asciilifeform: i haven't verified that the 3rd rail in the underground is 800 volts hot, yet, either.
mircea_popescu: well, once you finally get triphase installed you may then be surprised.
asciilifeform: orig point being that directionfinder gear makes life unreasonably easy for the enemy
mircea_popescu: enemy is long lost to this life.
mircea_popescu: but that practical consideration aside, obviously nothing wrong with doing things right.
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2017/qntra-sqntr-october-2017-statement/ << Trilema - Qntra (S.QNTR) October 2017 Statement
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-04#1732882 << o yeah ? what's he up to these days.
a111: Logged on 2017-11-04 14:45 asciilifeform: ( incidentally the other day asciilifeform finally met phf in meatland )
asciilifeform: i'll let the man speak for himself
asciilifeform: ( iirc he was stuck with unpleasant meatspace chores for a long while. )
mircea_popescu: evidently.
asciilifeform: also met a phriend of his, who asked not to be named, who traded 2 bolix 'ivory' cpus for asciilifeform's 1 bolix-3620 .
mircea_popescu: same ol' disaster of commons. when it comes to it, erryone's got something to do at home.
asciilifeform: oh upstack re radios, the 'why not use aperidic wave, and entire spectrum' thing was of course not long ago hannobockized and redhatized by usg shills, as 'uwb (ultrawideband)' and 'regulated' and other rubbish.
asciilifeform: *aperiodic
asciilifeform: they sit around and 'make rules' for it, same as 'for blockchain laundering' etc.
mircea_popescu: gotta kill the time somehow.
mircea_popescu: romanian expression is "taie frunza la ciini", ie, divide leaves among the dogs.
apeloyee: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-04#1732826 << I understood that, and it seems doubtful
a111: Logged on 2017-11-04 14:18 asciilifeform: apeloyee: q was, is it possible to transmit in such a way that for someone without the key, there ~is~ no 'signals received'
apeloyee: if enemy has only one receiver, you can
shinohai is now thoroughly depressed after reading October s.qntr statement
apeloyee: asciilifeform: in one receiver case, one can detect a narrowband transmission using autocorrelation; in case of "aperiodic" whatever, one can detect a spatially fixed transmitter by measuring correlation between signals of two stations. of course, in practice one would need to use many pairs (or a clever algorithm I cannot now think of), and filter known stations
apeloyee: two stations won't let you recover the signal, of course; just know something's there as soon as it transmitted enough bits (literally!)
apeloyee: *have transmitted
mircea_popescu: apeloyee maybe i'm missing something. how do you distinguish this "something" from "people turned on their electric stoves" say ?
asciilifeform: apeloyee: transmitter does not have to be a point source
asciilifeform: can just as easily be, say, 17 sources geographically dispersed , working in concert
apeloyee: by using stronger signal than the stoves. if you try to be below noise, you would transmit slowly, and thus still not evade max # of bits.
mircea_popescu: apeloyee do you have an idea how loud random events get ?
apeloyee: can just as easily be, say, 17 sources geographically dispersed , working in concert << you would not particuraly need fancy modulations then
mircea_popescu: for instance : the majority of low clouds passing over this here observation point are em-louder than CG-73.
mircea_popescu: (item got reliably measured because in the 90s they were derping about putting a d-fluorine mw laser on it.)
apeloyee: clouds move. otoh if the suspected source keeps transmitting...
apeloyee: I concede I don't have a good estimate as to the amount of information a fixed location's good for
mircea_popescu: all sorts of phenomena intercede. clouds is an example, but the point is that "noise floor" is not JUST a floor, but also randomly distributed perturbations, which during a whole day can reach significant amplitudes.
asciilifeform: apeloyee: what i'd like is http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-02#1732165 + if you ~do~ somehow detect the fact-of the transmission, it ought to look exactly like the source had wings and zipped randomly around the continent.
a111: Logged on 2017-11-02 19:50 asciilifeform: at any rate drawing a plot like http://www.oliviamode.com/OliviaView.htm should not be possible for proper item.
mircea_popescu: apeloyee take an actually publicly-documented example : most crews tend to turn off the auto-return-fire thingee because left to its own devices it wastes all the ammo.
mircea_popescu: this is a much more reliable sound-detection with satellite support item
mircea_popescu: in general, the only thing a "find me an em shrubbery" produces reliably are false positives.
asciilifeform: incidentally, rf 'fox hunting' is at this point a traditional sport in ru, and the 'fox' is always found .
asciilifeform: it isn't a particularly mysterious process.
apeloyee: it wastes all the ammo.<< if ammo would be cheap they wouldn't.
mircea_popescu: not by purely passive em methods i expect
asciilifeform: passive.
mircea_popescu: apeloyee ammo is always expensive even if free, for a purely ecological reason. you don't want your space too filled with ordnance.
mircea_popescu: that's how friendly fire happens.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform then i guess foxes use hunter-provided equipment.
apeloyee: if there's truly that many perturbations, they will also make difficult for the intended recipient to receive correctly.
mircea_popescu: i expect so, yes.
asciilifeform: well it's a sport, they use agreed-upon standard item, just like both tennis players get same type of racket, etc
asciilifeform: apeloyee: difficult is ok. so long as for intended man -- possible, for the unintended -- impossible.
mircea_popescu: apeloyee narrowness of band was the original attempt to get out of this. the narrower the band the "better" the reception in the sense of fewer natural perturbations. which is what drove the move to diodes and then ic.
mircea_popescu: (no, ic was not made for ocmputers. ic was made for naval comms.)
asciilifeform: even if it takes, say, a whole minute to move a byte.
mircea_popescu: if you use wide spectrums, you get back to the problem of, "nature has more energy to burn than you do"
apeloyee: if you have more transmitters than enemy has receivers "in the area" (precise meaning is a legit research q), then you can hide from the enemy, otherwise, you will be eventually found.
mircea_popescu: this is an interesting formalization.
asciilifeform: idea is that for the enemy, without the key, you are below noise floor; but for the intended recipient, who knows how to look -- above.
mircea_popescu: apeloyee suppose what is transmitted is an equivalent of the "number stations" of old. minus, of course, the girly voice.
mircea_popescu: if i actually transmit fg output, do you expect you'll ever find ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: depends how transmit. if with carrier -- than trivially found
asciilifeform: ( as all existing radios use )
mircea_popescu: i thought the discussion was carierless
asciilifeform: even without carrier, possible to find. consider usg's adventure in vietnam, where they picked up spark plug noise from trucks on ho chi min trail.
apeloyee: if you use wide spectrums, you get back to the problem of, "nature has more energy to burn than you do" << I'm unsure. Shannon-Hartley thorem sez that at least in its conditions, using as wide spectrum as poosible is optimal.
apeloyee: *theorem
mircea_popescu: apeloyee but this is relevant if you already know there's a signal there
mircea_popescu: ie, it establishes maximum rate, not some kind of "minimum rate of relevancy"
apeloyee: i meant optimal for the sender and his expected recipient, not eavesdropper.
mircea_popescu: ah ah. yes.
mircea_popescu: optimal does mean many surprising things though.
mircea_popescu: also, real noise is not so gaussian, but anyway.
mircea_popescu: (imo the best model of "real noise" in this sense is perusing the SETI reports, or else any major, indiscriminate dataset of radiotelescopy. THAT is how natural noise goes. with the occasional neutron star and the occasional "holy shit" scribbled in pen)
asciilifeform: ( admittedly spark plug 'fox hunt' worx great in the otherwise rf-quiet jungle, but would not in a city or anywhere remotely industrialized )
apeloyee: real noise is not so gaussian << true. but still means must solve the q of optimal bandwidth each time
mircea_popescu: or at least get a decent approximation.
mircea_popescu: the problem with "natural noise" is that there's so many local maxima.
apeloyee: maxima of what?
mircea_popescu: of anything.
mircea_popescu: however you define your function, the principal distinction between gaussian and natural noise is that the former is smooth.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: unfortunately noise is not a scalar : enemy can distinguish your transmitter from supernovae, strictly from the fact that the latter happen 'in the sky' and the former -- not
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform certainly ; but this would then match my criteria for "not by purely passive em methods" above.
asciilifeform: still passive, he has a triangle of receivers pointing in orthogonal planes.
apeloyee: what's smooth noise?
mircea_popescu: not ~entirely~ passive, he makes some assumptions on the nature of "using hunter-provided equipment"
asciilifeform: whole q, from asciilifeform's pov, is 'what should the fox do, if playing without rules, in battlefield, not in karateka'
asciilifeform: naturally fox will make own, rather than using hunter's, gear.
mircea_popescu: apeloyee let me take the matter this way : are you familiar with how every "be a graphics artist" software package out there has a coinvolve-with-gaussian "effect" ?
mircea_popescu: or for that matter, dja remeber that old "encrypted" penguin logo ?
mircea_popescu: that's smooth noise. \
a111: Logged on 2016-12-24 01:46 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: all schemes where the transform is of 'payload itself' and 0 entropy, suffer from immediate 'penguin problem', https://blog.filippo.io/content/images/2015/11/Tux_ecb.jpg .
mircea_popescu: perhaps not the best term for it, as it's metaphorical rather than descriptive.
apeloyee: hm. "nonstationary"?
mircea_popescu: i suppose. though really the problem as far as interests here is this : presented with an "aberration", in natural noise you really can't tell whether relevant ; whereas in gaussian noise you generally can guess.
mircea_popescu: ie, the very substance of the "fox can be found" argument. yes, if he uses sparkplugs you yourself sold him ; yes, if he lives in a space of gaussian noise ; yes if etc.
asciilifeform: 'not using hunter's equipment' still requires a meaningful difference to exist. just as in the case described in old trilema, where some illiterate camel fucker reinvented caesar's cipher ( and unsurprisingly exactly as breakable as if caesar were resurrected and using his , because why not , despite 'not issued by hunter')
mircea_popescu: quite, yes.
mircea_popescu: it's not indefensible to suspect juche sparkplugs still fucking sparkplugs. perhaps.
asciilifeform: so subj is really a restatement of asciilifeform's orig q : how does the fox's equip have to differ from the extant.
asciilifeform brb, meat
mircea_popescu: anyway, i suppose the correct reference i sohulkd have given re smoothness was weierstrass.
mircea_popescu: yes it's true that heat in a rod, or whatever diffusion phenomena are relatively smooth in this sense ; nevertheless em is the least smooth of the entire series.
mircea_popescu: gaussian is a decent "middle of the way" representation ; but not so useful when discussing specifically stuff to the extreme one side.
mircea_popescu: in entirely unrelated lulz : the "womenz in tech" dynastry of aparatchicks over at wikipedia is pretty lulzi : sue gardner's lengthy tenure ended (she was recycled to nsa honeypot "tor project") to be replaced by lila tretikov, two bit russki scammer gal who got sent off (over the whole "knowledge engine" failed wikimedia http://btcbase.org/log/2017-10-26#1729324 attempt) to be replaced by katherine maher.
a111: Logged on 2017-10-26 16:59 mircea_popescu: anyway, back to the bait and switch thing. reddit started life as a sort of 4chan with a jump, ie the little girl's not on the page, but you have to click. this wasn't accidental, because their phase 2 ("growth phase" eh) consisted of the exact value proposition : add your crap to reddit, watch people click on it. once growth stopped they dropped the bait, switched to "we will control the conversation in this ever-so-importan
shinohai: What's that a picture of, a fivver developer's meetup?
mircea_popescu: hey, outsourcing goes the way it goes.
asciilifeform: re: cryptoradio, here's a gedankenexperiment: consider a tx station consisting of 2 separated (by, say, a km+ of cable) transmitters; each sends prng soup across a few 100MHz . modulation of payload is strictly via altering their relative ~amplitudes~ .
asciilifeform: receiver needs to know 1) prng seed for each 2) the band 3) his physical position relative to the prongs of the station
asciilifeform: the prongs thing is quite like the xor-otp structure removal transform from the ciphers thread
asciilifeform: i.e. individually the signals are meaningless
asciilifeform: ( and can just as easily substitute ~actual~ otp in place of the prng, if you like , the exact mechanics of generating the noise waveform are irrelevant other than for the fact that they must be repeatable )
asciilifeform: thereby scheme reduces to looking for a truly rngistic signal that at all times is known ~in advance~, but from 2 or more diverging physical directions; and comparing.
apeloyee: why 2 instead of 1 of maxint?
apeloyee: *or maxint
asciilifeform: for same reason you an' i, have 2 eyes
asciilifeform: and not 3, and not maxint.
asciilifeform: 3rd, 4th, ... dun help any.
asciilifeform: 1 reduces to convention radio, where the signal carries meaning.
asciilifeform: *conventional
mircea_popescu: just about the item i thought was under discussion all along.
asciilifeform: what i suspect you get, is something quite like the ultralongwave submarine transmitter, but without the monstrous mains current bills.
asciilifeform: ( observe that 'fox hunting' for ulw is ~impractical, not only from sheer physical dimensions of the receiver , but from signal strength being approx same on entire planet, regardless of where you tx from )
mircea_popescu: in other fiat-octopus-withdrawing-from-salt news, https://forum.fiverr.com/t/payment-in-bitcoin/100989 << fiverr discontinues bitcoin payments.
BingoBoingo: Oh my!
danielpbarron: !~later tell BingoBoingo i don't think your wotpaste url was correct. can you resend?
jhvh1: danielpbarron: The operation succeeded.
BingoBoingo: danielpbarron sure
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: The operation succeeded.
danielpbarron: got it, ty.
ben_vulpes: adventures in remedial binary arithmetic continue... http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/eYcqJ/?raw=true
shinohai: blockchain.info on the phork: "To ensure they remain safe while the network is in transition, we will temporarily suspend bitcoin send, request, buy, sell, and exchange functionality roughly 12 to 24 hours before the time of the fork until the network stabilizes. "
lobbesbot: Logged on 2017-11-04 22:09:48: <diana_coman> danielpbarron, 1 bitcoin please
danielpbarron: !!v 1CD857A9782D80AA761F36ED949321E599419CF46288092E4A01A6EF47DE4DA3
lobbesbot: Logged on 2017-11-04 22:09:48: <diana_coman> danielpbarron, 1 bitcoin please
a111: Logged on 2017-11-04 23:13 lobbesbot: Logged on 2017-11-04 22:09:48: <diana_coman> danielpbarron, 1 bitcoin please
shinohai: Nice
mod6: ya
mod6: qy
mod6: oops ^
trinque: mod6: there ya go ^
trinque: ah fuck! typo
mod6: heeey, thanks :]
mod6 grabs
BingoBoingo: tyvm trinque
mod6: lol
shinohai: Is it sad that *my* home setup looks more sophisticated than that?
shinohai: Not that I have that # of boxes, but overall feel
shinohai: Hmmmm ..... Q3,516.00 ?
shinohai: *quetzales
mod6: looks like a ghetto radio shack
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