Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2017-06-20 | 2017-06-22 → ↓
deedbot: http://www.contravex.com/2017/06/21/i-know-the-last-train-is-leaving-the-station-but-thats-ok-ill-grab-the-next-one/ << » Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski - “I know the last train is leaving the station but that’s ok I’ll grab the next one.”
BingoBoingo: Very trippy new trilema header
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: got it, gimme a min
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform kk
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: done.
mircea_popescu: normally this happens "privately" as per usg.freenode's notion of that, but since http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-20#1672501 i figure what the hell, we can have one public day.
a111: Logged on 2017-06-20 16:30 phf: scussions, but also any kind of attempt at crypto communication. there was nothing to say all along.
mircea_popescu: thereby making june 21st the republican "day of there was nothing to say all along" and a holiday.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ty kindly!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: np!
asciilifeform: got it!
mircea_popescu: dun dun duuun.
shinohai: Happy Solstice/day of there was nothing to say all along Day !
mircea_popescu: wasn't that yest ?
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: ack
mircea_popescu: shinohai precesion, yo. by now solstice moved to late 20th evening.
shinohai now wonders what to do with these naked girls in the kitchen ....
mircea_popescu: send them home, it's all fruhstuck't.
mircea_popescu: (yet another of ex ro president traian basescu's harem was finally "found" by teh ro tards. this one is an actual general no less, and organised more parties / ows-likes than ~anyone in the us).
mod6: mornin tmsr~
mircea_popescu: (perhaps also of note, what piddly orlol boats pass for "the yacht!! of a mobster!!!" in rotardland.)
asciilifeform considered buying the orloltron
mod6: the boat?!
mircea_popescu: lmao. but why ?
asciilifeform: although it is suspiciously cheap
mod6: the ocean is a desert. i don't think i could do that for extended time.
asciilifeform: if the 'replaced and renovated everything!111' is in fact tru
mircea_popescu: dude, you are off your fucking rocker. you have no experience whatsoever with boating and will buy a 2nd hand item ?
mircea_popescu: how the fuck will you evaluate anything about it ?
mircea_popescu: noobs buy new. golden rule, don't step out.
asciilifeform: for asciilifeform , 'new' means 'never'
asciilifeform: because $mil
mircea_popescu: this is NOT A CRITERIA.
asciilifeform: sure it is.
asciilifeform: [insert mircea_popescu boat thread here!111]
mircea_popescu: you understand, for $retard "correctly means never" is how he gets into javascript ?
mircea_popescu: it is a stupid thing to do. i don't care what you think "means never" means.
mircea_popescu: the schmuck above, http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-20#1672451 like so many equal schmucks before him, thought "read logs and get into tmsr ? THAT MEANS NEVER!!!! LOG TOO LONG!!!" etc.
a111: Logged on 2017-06-20 14:45 sn0wmonster: do you always do this?
asciilifeform: asciilifeform barely ever buys 'new' anythings. 'newness' is a chump tax.
mircea_popescu: so don't buy it new in the us, buy it new in china.
mircea_popescu: you understand this ? industrial process offers a guarantee of sameness and conformity, such as it is. natural decay DOES NOT.
mircea_popescu: all items coming off the factory line are worth ~same within a few percents, AND the whole fucking world is out there trying to figure out FOR YOU, on their own dime, what that SAME is.
asciilifeform: i'll be sure to buy new b0at in china as soon as i learn chinese, get into cpcn wot, and obtain teleporter.
mircea_popescu: a used item can be worth anything through mt_rand(0, new)
mircea_popescu can buy used cars. CARS. because i bought and own hundreds. i can't buy fucking used boats, and i doubt you can (or would, or do for that matter) buy used cars.
mircea_popescu: bought and owned*
asciilifeform: incidentally 'industrial process offers a guarantee of sameness and conformity', 'natural decay DOES NOT' is not wholly given : there exists such a thing as turdalicious production processes, and -- on opposite end -- the 'bathtub curve' of winnowing
asciilifeform: electric transformers, for instance
mod6: asciilifeform: you'd be better of renting a boat if you just wanna have some fun. if you want escape-hatch, then you escape, buy boat later at where ever with translator et al.
asciilifeform: and i would not buy anything BUT a used car, wtf
asciilifeform: newness is a chump tax.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform sure. when you buy a used electric transformer, i'll keep my peace.
asciilifeform: plain and simple. ( it drives off the dealer lot, suddenly loses 10k in value, lol )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform do you buy it over the internet, too ?
asciilifeform: i certainly do.
asciilifeform: or would, at any rate.
mircea_popescu: did you.
asciilifeform: transformer? yes!
asciilifeform: was even a thread here.
mircea_popescu: no dude, used car over craigslist.
asciilifeform: ah these no
mircea_popescu: i swear the loony reservation is doing things to your head. you ended up baking in us "consumer protection" laws at some level.
asciilifeform: but i've had the same (inherited) auto for eons.
mircea_popescu: so you didn't... buy it ?
mircea_popescu: so then wtf are you talking about.
mircea_popescu: of couse your brotyher isn't going to stick you with a lemon.
asciilifeform: was thinking of transformers and other smaller items. ~100% of my comps is made of 2ndhand parts, for instance.
mircea_popescu: THAT is fine, but also does not scale.
mircea_popescu: there's ~no mechanical moving parts in computer, and guess what -- the few that are, you DO buy new.
asciilifeform: tru!! if i needed 10,000,001 -- would be stuck paying the chumptax
mircea_popescu: or are your fans 2nd hand also.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: my toothbrush ain't 2ndhand either!11
mircea_popescu: yes but circumstances of two kinds overlap to dazzle and confuse your eye.
mircea_popescu: the relevant part in the fan is the movement, not the intimacy.
asciilifeform: would mircea_popescu describe the chassis of boat as 'moving part' ?
mircea_popescu: and, to a much larger degree in the car than in the fan. and to a larger still in the boat than in the car.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes!
mircea_popescu: we already had this thread last week, but you got it like duck gets wet. the boat hull IS a moving part, and it is moving in such a way to make plastic ~useless.
asciilifeform: per my current (nonexpert) conception, it's a fiberglass shell, that is either broken or whole
mircea_popescu: this is not entirely true. it's either new or ground.
asciilifeform: at any rate, and ought to satisfy mircea_popescu , i dun buy machines i have nfi how to drive, i did not buy airplane either.
BingoBoingo: The hull is a friction surface
mircea_popescu: ie, 10k or 10 days away from failure.
BingoBoingo: Like a very hard to change tire
mircea_popescu: the problem with brake pads is that under the heat and shear stress they microcrystallize. this makes them much less useless for their intended purpose, which is abrasion, and for which they'd better stay amorphous. the problem with fiberglass is that under mechanical stress they separate, which then creates fissures and which then is the end.
mircea_popescu: much less useful*
asciilifeform: but if asciilifeform ever ~were~ to buy boat, or plane, it ~would~ be a used one, and will pay for it not only in reichsmarks but millimorts, because new is simply not on the table -- a new, e.g., sailboat thing, may as well be a starship
BingoBoingo: If that's the case buy a motorcycle
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i dun particularly need a motorcycle..
BingoBoingo: Low dollars, higher millimorts
mircea_popescu: yes, from a pass/fail perspective brake pad is either broken or isn't. but natura not facit saltus, it gets there through a continuous process. there's no discrete processes above atomic scale.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: nagant even cheaper!111
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform buy a few bitcoins and wait a few years.
mircea_popescu: you could afford a boat in $2 btc, yes.
asciilifeform: lol that'd require selling bitcoin!111
mircea_popescu: better than selling micromorts.
asciilifeform treats btc as something like the fabled 'write-only memory'
mircea_popescu: it just about is.
asciilifeform: for instance, almost 100% of the btc i ever tx'ed out, was on the dumb alphago bet
asciilifeform: (never bet on any game you haven't rigged yerself!11111)
asciilifeform: probably quite enough at this point to have bought an orlolboat for some cackling 'bay aryan'
mod6: whats the longest boat trip you've ever taken?
asciilifeform: maybe half a day?
mod6: i personally have only been on a boat for a day at most.
mod6: well, i think that it's fun for a day; imagine going port to port for weeks on end. i think it'd get tiring. maybe i'm wrong. *shrug*
asciilifeform: it was enough to establish that asciilifeform is completely immune to sea sickness, for instance.
phf: ha
mircea_popescu: anyway, a word re the "new chump tax drives off the lot loses 10k value" thing : it loses 10k of RESALE value. it does not lose 10k of value, ie, your new car still won't need new shocks just because you drove it off lot.
mod6: i don't seem to have problems with that either.... at least, i have't had it yet.
mircea_popescu: there's many values. value as a negotiable is different from value as a usable.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: tru
mircea_popescu: "you marry a girl, it loses 10k whoring value right there" is rank nonsense.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: my observation was the the 'warranty' of new item is a very, very expensive thing
asciilifeform: that may or may not be +ev
mircea_popescu: which is why i said don't buy it in the us, cuz yes those people are SO into papers and empty signifiying by now that it's a legitimate problem.
mircea_popescu: but the insanity of one group does not affect the bedrock of reality any.
asciilifeform: getting to where you can buy outside of the reservation is also not phree
mircea_popescu: perhaps. but it's still an open problem how expensive, and it is my estimation you're massively overestimating it.
asciilifeform: it is hard enough to buy massless, teleportable btc, even
asciilifeform: much less physical contraption like boat
mircea_popescu: mod6 it helps immensely if you only take slavegirls along.
mircea_popescu: possibly only thing in nature that actually occupies negative space.
mod6: ah, i agree. naked girl(s) + boat go hand in hand.
mircea_popescu: nudity is a start, but it's just... people have a bubble, it depends on many things and i suppose is of various types. if you pack them tighter than their bubble is they'll get increasingly pissier.
mircea_popescu: except, well trained slavegirl has opposite effect.
mircea_popescu: this is favoritism!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform mind that there's two sea sicknesses, also, early and late. though the late is rare.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what's the 'late' ?
mod6: heheh. i can see it though, mircea_popescu
mircea_popescu: sort of migraine-like, seen in the 6th to 12th week.
asciilifeform: sets in after a month..?
mircea_popescu: mostly hits people like fishing boat crews, which is why they never take more than X% noobs no matter what.
asciilifeform: i dun think an orloltron carries 12 wks of food/water
asciilifeform: ( or petrol, for that matter )
mircea_popescu: narrows with exposure.
asciilifeform: while we're on subj of storms at sea -- i admit to having wondered why orlol isn't designing a small sub ( it doesn't need to have gigantic pressure hull, or even ~any maneuvering ability while under -- but only to ride out storms by submerging). afaik it dun get any moar storm-proof than a sub.
mircea_popescu: so basically have your own solitary confinment cell ?
asciilifeform: lol dun have to be solitary, does it
mircea_popescu: they give those out for free, you know, even in your jurisdiction.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i dunno you'll be able to find anyone willing to indulge, so in theory not but in practice likely.
asciilifeform: https://archive.hnsa.org/ships/img/kaiten.jpg << probably the sub mircea_popescu was thinking of !111
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: funnily enough, i have that part ( if little else ) solved.
mircea_popescu: i dunno man, there's many kinds of people and i dun expect to understand all, but going by observation to date the only reason people even put up (for brief intervals) with the many and significant inconveniences of navigation is access to the sun and the wind and so on.
asciilifeform: nothing keeps the mariner from hanging out on the deck when weather is fine, neh
asciilifeform: ( ww2 sub folx -- certainly did, witness the group photos )
mod6: i feel like that was once every 3 months though. haha.
asciilifeform: mod6: no ww2 sub was capable of 3 month patrol
asciilifeform: or even close
asciilifeform: you're thinking of today's atomic monsters, mod6
asciilifeform: ( where the 3mo limit is imposed by the practical load of food, and little else )
mod6: ah, fair point. but i mean, whatever, probably wasn't daily sunning either.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what, you are going to have a CONVERTIBLE sub ?
shinohai: asciilifeform must ICO gossipd, everyone is doing it nao! http://archive.is/clQo7
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: nope, lol
mircea_popescu: i don't get it.
asciilifeform: just one with a topdeck, like (afaik) all of'em
mircea_popescu: you ever been on a sub top deck ?
mod6: i dunno, if you feel like you wanna live in a submarine, then perhaps its time to gtfo and find a better place.
mircea_popescu: mod6 ^ golden words.
asciilifeform: shinohai: that dun sound like gossipd, sounds moar like http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1490
mircea_popescu: rules to fucking live by, you know, "by the time you feel like you wanna live in a submarine, it's time to gtfo and find a better place."
asciilifeform: shinohai: ' It can handle chat, audio and video calling, photo/video/file sharing, voice conferences, etc.' << lol! over bitcoin tx?!
shinohai: dat blockchain bloat
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform show me pics with naked chix sunbathing on this submarine deck.
shinohai: (has on chain if I understand correctly)
phf: asciilifeform grew up on russian romantic literature (like the soviet writer jules verne), yearns to live on Nautilus
mircea_popescu: just because a buncha doods are standing uncomfortably on it for five minutes dun mean jack.
mircea_popescu: phf except the soviet writer jules verne later wrote star trek, "how great would it be to sit on your couch watching tv on which they show you some dorks sitting on couch watching tv"
asciilifeform: i thought star dreck was mostly about fucking peculiarly humanoid alien chix
mircea_popescu: they ever fucked ?
asciilifeform: kabuki-style
asciilifeform not aficionado
mircea_popescu: afaik it was all about that big screen and the various people gathered around in that livingroom to watch it.
mircea_popescu: lt commander pass the popcorn or what was it.
mircea_popescu rather suspects that actually star trek figures principally as the G in that MAGA. it really was the best of times, that worst of times, for all those involved.
mircea_popescu: "bring back that time when ''your job is to watch tv'' actually WORKED."
phf: i have to be honest, i barely read jules verne. i think it's just an incompatible temperament issue, i preferred my romantics to be a bit darker.
mircea_popescu: i preferred twain, but the problem is twain wrote enough for a coupla weeks, verne for a coupla months. every day as a 10yo i'd come home from school, stop at library, buy another jv book an' go read it.
mircea_popescu: then i discovered romania actually had a niche equivalent of the us pulp, spinrad & all, so i moved on to that.
phf: i liked twain, but he was also a touch wholesome. like an older uncle, telling you a yarn, that has a Point to it that you're expected to notice, because the uncle grins every time the point comes up
mod6: cool
ben_vulpes: phf: ever read any andre norton?
mircea_popescu: to this day my idea of "who can be bothered to read "other americas" or "trainspotting" or you know, watch coffy fightin' crime for the black "homeland" is, 11 yo boy.
mircea_popescu: phf really ? i utterly missed that out. i think to this day. what was the point ?
phf: oh that i don't know, i was 10, so i intentionally avoided learning what the point was, i just had an uneasy sense that it was there
mircea_popescu: ah. who knows.
mircea_popescu: the "uncles" ie uppity aunts don't like it anymore these days, though. too much nigger in it, not to mention a very strong vein of "things are as they are not only because that's how they are but also because that's how tyhey should be".
mircea_popescu: and so the poor kid has allergy to clothes and the black kid to learnin and the injun to sitting still.
phf: funny how that goes
mircea_popescu: kinda why buying the ourdemocracy pantsuit lolboat is such a ridiculous deal. the only thing you know for sure about it is that, "wait a few years, they won't like it anymore".
mircea_popescu: no eternal vocation to socialism.
phf: or as my mom would say "перебесятся..!"
mircea_popescu: mmm... i dun get it ?
phf: which doesn't have a good direct translation. "they will soon stop throwing a tantrum" but the verb is from bes, i.e. old russian word for demon, so kind of like "they will run out of the idiotic and chaotic energy, and will eventually calm down"
mircea_popescu: "voluntary apnea works out until the brain shuts down from lack of oxygen and the stem restarts breathing reflexively" ?
mircea_popescu: kinda the whole story of socialism, as it happens. what the pantsuits are doing is === voluntary apnea, and what happens to them is always "well, you ran out of money, so back to capitalism whore!"
mircea_popescu: phf is it more a la satyr / jp kappa sorta item ?
asciilifeform: more like the kind you exorcise
phf: apparently from greek pithakos (monkey) through latin foedus (ugly)
phf: goes back to slavic mythology, but i don't know what bes is there. in old slavonic bibles it was used to translate the word "demon"
mircea_popescu: afaik the slavic notion of the devil is muchly indebted to a) the observation of lyssaviri in action and b) the passage about jesus and the herd of pigs. so they mostly understood demons as rabies agents.
mircea_popescu: of course, they don't really have rabies in galilea, but wut-eevars!
phf: yeah, бешентсво, that is rabies, is derived from bes
mircea_popescu: yeah. at the time and in those parts, wolves were a much more serious problem, and correspondingly a much larger part of culture than seen today
mircea_popescu: (both because today's culture is mostly interhuman masturbation and because it has mostly lost the ability to reflect reality.)
mircea_popescu: makes for much better demonography than the southerners had at any rate.
phf: there's though a comedic dimension to the word, by 19th century you had a stereotype of bumbling deacon, the kind of person who would blame "daemons" on personal insignificant follies
mircea_popescu: kinda how folk-whatever goes. "he had the devil in him" ie liked to touch girls between the legs and drank.
mircea_popescu: though the last word from harvard trained Psychologists (!!!) is psychopath, i hear.
phf: из столицы! ему сам царь-батюшка ученую грамоту дал и подписал!
mircea_popescu: yemu sam tsar-batyushka huh.
mircea_popescu: incidentally, people get all excited re the fungi that grow out of ant's heads and change the ant's behaviour etc.
mircea_popescu: however, rabies is a much better example : the virus specifically accumulates in the salivary glands, for the ~purpose~ of being transmitted through bites, and shuts down the deglutition behaviour.
mircea_popescu: a lot more work to change behaviour ~in all mammals!~ than it is to aflict one narrowly defined sort of ant.
asciilifeform: toxoplasmosis comes to mind also
mircea_popescu: you think it makes old women herd cats ?
asciilifeform: i'd be surprised if it worked exactly same in man as in mouse
asciilifeform: iirc is supposed to make victim somewhat less cautious in general
mircea_popescu: myeah. entirely possible.
BingoBoingo: Oh the desperate wishing in anti-reality land https://archive.is/j5kN6
phf: there was a young adult novel about vampires, and i can't remember the title or the author, but it was written by a virologist, had all kinds of trivia about this sort of viral parasites (obviously vampirism was explored from that angle too)
mircea_popescu: did it still make them gay ?
BingoBoingo: Of course it must have. I thought that's what the 1980's in "activism" was about. Vampire disease
phf: i don't think you could get published in america if you were to imply that gayness is biologically viral in nature
mircea_popescu: but you can't sell your vampire story unless everyone in it is very twinky.
mircea_popescu: !~google "poz my neg hole"
mircea_popescu: phf incidentally, it's a great thing the free world (tm) defeated the soviet union where people couldn't be published for writing things outside of the yemu sam's letters.
mircea_popescu: it's even better that nobody (tm) is even bothered by this, exactly like they weren't in teh self-same soviet union.
asciilifeform: ACHTUNG, PANZERS! preliminary result of http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-18#1672101 is that http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-19#1659220 nao takes <3 sec. which can still be improved further,
a111: Logged on 2017-06-18 23:30 asciilifeform: and realized, while doing this, that in fact you don't need 2k+2 bits for the karatsuba intermediates, you can do instead of (x0+x1)*(y0+y1) , (x0-x1)*(y0-y1), and then you don't need to propagate carries, but only take absolutevalue and xor the borrows to see if gotta invert the resulting term
a111: Logged on 2017-05-19 17:22 asciilifeform: in other news, a 4096-bit A**B takes approx 14 seconds (3GHz) .
asciilifeform: because at present the base case of the recursion is L=1 , and probably ought to be 4, or even 8 machinewords;
phf: (500 lines of ada later...)
asciilifeform: and, unrelatedly, karatsuba parallelizes (into 3 forks) without any substantial effort, so can also speed up whatever the bare bone speed ends up being, 3x
asciilifeform: phf: aactually thing got ~shorter~
asciilifeform: i'ma about to post, momentarily,
asciilifeform: >>>>> http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/Zy27g/?raw=true <<<<< ( CAUTION, mod6 , phf , et al ! the invocation syntax has changed !! )
asciilifeform: ^ veeeery prelim. version, i still gotta prove that it worx always and forever.
asciilifeform: also can probably be simplified slightly.
asciilifeform: the 'egyptological' mul has been removed, it is not useful
asciilifeform: also it is almost certainly possible to have less copying in there.
mod6: nice!
mod6 looks
asciilifeform: not as nice as needed
asciilifeform: not yet.
asciilifeform: mod6: if you want to test, keep in mind that you gotta Foo : FZ(Bits) ; now, rather than Foo : FZ;
asciilifeform: in all other respects, same semantics as previously.
asciilifeform: ( you physically cannot have karatsuba or anything of the kind if you cannot make FZs of several sizes. however the F remains, it is still impermissible to involve FZs of variant bitnesses in any arithmetical operation when invoking . )
asciilifeform: likewise 'bitness' of an FZ refers solely to the number of bits available in it, and does NOT and never will depend on their ~contents~ ( unlike non-fixed bignumatrons )
asciilifeform: but keep in mind mod6 et al that where before you had package ALU is new FFA(Width => Width, Word => OS.Machine_Word); you will now have, e.g., package ALU is new FFA(Word => OS.Machine_Word);
asciilifeform: ^ this oughta suffice, for whoever wants to try.
BingoBoingo: !~ud pajama boy
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: pajama boy :: An insufferable Man-Child. About as threatening as Michael Cera and so nerdy he could guest-host on an unwatched MSNBC show. The purpose of Pajama Boy is not to get people to buy health insurance, but to get a rise out of more powerful personas. [ex:] Pajama Boy is an insufferable Man-Child probably reading The Bell Jar and looking forward to a hearty Christmas meal of stuffed tofurkey. If (2 more messages)
trinque: scam; I don't think you can stuff a tofurkey
asciilifeform: mod6: interestingly, there is veeeeery little improvement so far, http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-23#1660607 turns into 17.7 sec !!
a111: Logged on 2017-05-23 18:39 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-19#1659228 turns into 20.5s.
asciilifeform: base case definitely should not be 1.
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2017/06/georgia-special-election-demonstrates-continued-erosion-of-fake-news-influence-in-us/ << Qntra - Georgia Special Election Demonstrates Continued Erosion Of Fake News Influence In US
asciilifeform: ( 8192bit exponentiation: ~10min with egyptological mul; 20.5s was with first-grade mul; 17.7 with karatsuba posted today )
mod6: <+asciilifeform> mod6: if you want to test, keep in mind that you gotta Foo : FZ(Bits) ; now, rather than Foo : FZ; << good to note. thanks
asciilifeform: the INFURIATING thing is that, just as with the addition/subtraction carry bit (last month's thread), the compiler DOES NOT give us portable access to the upper word of MUL reg,reg
asciilifeform: so we end up having to do FOUR multiplications !! and buncha additions, to get it
asciilifeform: ( see procedure W_Mul )
asciilifeform: and yes, one can inline asm it. however the EXPLICIT spec was : NO ASM!!!!!
mod6: yeah. no sewage in the champagne
asciilifeform: mod6: understand, we're still an entire order of magnitude away from being able to so much as miller-rabin.
asciilifeform: *speedwise
mod6: ya.
mod6: <+asciilifeform> but keep in mind mod6 et al that where before you had package ALU is new FFA(Width => Width, Word => OS.Machine_Word); you will now have, e.g., package ALU is new FFA(Word => OS.Machine_Word); << thanks for this too
asciilifeform: so far this has been a quite depressing exercise
asciilifeform: in that i still do not know if the problem can even be solved satisfactorily.
mod6: depressing because 17.7 seconds?
asciilifeform: mod6: understand, that translates into a YEAR or two of 4096bit rsa keygenning time.
asciilifeform: at best.
mod6: i do not think this is depressing, more ~expected. we're doing things typically in crystal way up above where normally executed.
asciilifeform: ( not to mention ~worthless for mircea_popescu's prize-problem of 'pure rsa link b/w 2 machines' )
mod6: so, there might be some optimization to be done (perhaps?) once we all grok the implementation.
asciilifeform: mod6: i mentioned all of the ones i could think of -- larger base case ( trivially necessary ), and parallelized recursing ( unacceptable in the msdos port, or on single-cored machines of whatever type, however )
mod6: yeah, don't let it get you down. all in good time.
asciilifeform: main thing nuking the speed is the W_Mul thing and the fact that we copy EVERY split. the latter is not avoidable given as we ban pointers
asciilifeform: the former is also afaik going nowhere.
mod6: you mean, storing the halfwords isn't going anywhere?
mod6: in W_Mul ?
asciilifeform: doing FIVE ( yes, it's five ) machine muls, in there, and 5 machine adds ( instead of motherfucking ZERO ) JUST TO GET THE UPPER WORD of word*word mul, is not.
asciilifeform: not to mention the shift and AND in the bottomhw/tophw subs
asciilifeform: this is all because compiler is maliciously retarded
asciilifeform: ( or, charitably, because ada committee could not rely on ALL cpu having ability to return top word of mul, or even HAVING an iron mul )
mod6: fair enough.
asciilifeform: also gotta understand what the F in 'ffa' means. it means that N**2 takes exactly same time as N**N
asciilifeform: there are NO best-cases, or worst-cases.
asciilifeform: so there is no handwave away, 'average case will be better'. there IS no average case distinct from the others here.
mod6: *nod*
asciilifeform: mod6, phf , et al -- see if you grasp how the thing worx.
asciilifeform: ( oh, typo in comment : '-- J1 := Remaining J of Y' of course oughta be '-- Y1 := Remaining J of Y' )
asciilifeform: pleeez, folx, write in re typos, or any item that is unclear ( unclear is in itself a bug in critical code )
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/06A440A299DFAC49B901A7AC5546ADD656BFEBF0914010F1F0983B5481A4BA94 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1334...8633 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '74.45.0.64 (ssh-rsa key from 74.45.0.64 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown US)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/1882442C346E34C73069FB7ED55D952BCF5B7B1E2FF7FAB9C4337FD173C75180 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1334...8633 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '74.45.0.65 (ssh-rsa key from 74.45.0.65 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown US)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/4243CD67258D732BF7B2965A06839BDBB5CED0F8AE16B34FC085874FE89A4396 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1334...8633 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '74.45.229.139 (ssh-rsa key from 74.45.229.139 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown US)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/357944F7083AA4DBA3BB8A7147F19D7F0C299F546964111FC9D2BEB093DDC815 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1334...8633 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '74.45.231.115 (ssh-rsa key from 74.45.231.115 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown US)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/4243CD67258D732BF7B2965A06839BDBB5CED0F8AE16B34FC085874FE89A4396 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1021...8907 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '74.45.229.139 (ssh-rsa key from 74.45.229.139 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown US)
asciilifeform: wb mircea_popescu
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo lulzy montana "the referendum" on ourdemocracy.
mircea_popescu: also re "small cars", apparently fiat actually makes a THREE CYLINDER car
mod6: <+asciilifeform> mod6, phf , et al -- see if you grasp how the thing worx. << will continue to try to grok this thing.
BingoBoingo: three cylinder engines are not that uncommon
BingoBoingo: Kubota has a rather popular 3-cylinder diesel ~25-ish horsepower but lots of torque for the small holder who wants to deep rip their plot
mod6: this is outside the spec, but just as an experiment, what kinda timings do we get if you were to do inline asm for the W_Mul & Karatsuba procedures? is this worth doing?
asciilifeform: mod6: i haven't tried and have 0 intention of
asciilifeform: it defeats entire point of the entire thing.
mod6: okay
asciilifeform: mod6: ffa has to stay an algebraic, if you will, whole, or you cannot prove that it works.
asciilifeform: likewise, whole thing is 100% cpu arch AND endianity (!) independent, having any asm in the mix would ruin this.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: what does 'ffa' stand for?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: finite field arithmetic
ben_vulpes: huh, i don't understand this comment then: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-21#1673195
a111: Logged on 2017-06-21 17:08 asciilifeform: also gotta understand what the F in 'ffa' means. it means that N**2 takes exactly same time as N**N
mod6: asciilifeform: ok, i understand.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: ben_vulpes: f also 'fixed' !1111
asciilifeform: ... just read it, probably will make moar sense than my explaining it ( and if this is not so, then it is not written correctly )
ben_vulpes: ok ok!
mod6: X.Z'Length; -- Words in each operand << does 'Length count from 0?
asciilifeform: sure does, see ada spec
mod6: ok, thx
asciilifeform: however we don't have 0length Zs
asciilifeform: ( see ffa.ads )
mod6: asciilifeform: have a minute to walk through the splitting of the numbers?
mod6: ok
mod6: L : constant Positive := X.Z'Length; -- Words in each operand << let's say that L gets assigned to 7. (since we start at 0, we end on 7 as overall length)
mod6: K : constant Positive := (L + 1) / 2; << Now, K gets assigned to 4. (7 + 1) / 2 = 4
mod6: J : constant Positive := L - K; << J gets assigned to 3. 7 - 4 = 3.
mod6: X0.Z(X0.Z'First .. K) := X.Z(X.Z'First .. K); << X0 will be assigned to X.Z[0] -> X.Z[4] ? or is the 'X.Z'First .. K' part exclusive? where it'll only do X.Z[0]->[3] ?
BingoBoingo: In other lols, which part is inclusive now? https://archive.is/ppJtM
BingoBoingo: *party
ben_vulpes: holy doodle, my tunnel under steve's wall just broke the surface!
ben_vulpes shucks jumpsuit, runs
BingoBoingo: Congrats ben_vulpes
mod6: asciilifeform: anyway, im just trying to figure out if this splits the number in a balanced manner or we're off by one.
mod6: "A'First
mod6: A'First denotes the lower bound of the first index range; its type is the corresponding index type." << http://www.ada-auth.org/standards/12rm/html/RM-3-6-2.html#I1941
mod6: So, in this case, it seems that we start at 0.
mod6: and my guess is that X.Z(X.Z'First .. K) would be assigning 5 words where K = 4.
mod6: X1.Z(X1.Z'First .. J) := X.Z(K + 1 .. X.Z'Last); << Further, it seems that here, we'd be setting (K + 1) .. X.Z'Last ; so, 5 .. 7. And assigning that to X1.Z(0 .. 3).
mod6: which, i guess you would be assigning a null word then, also. not sure if that was intended.
mod6: well, not assigning, just not assigning the 4th word in X1.Z; where 4th == X1.Z[3]
asciilifeform: ACHTUNG s.nsa customers!! all outstanding-through-today FUCKGOATS have shipped
asciilifeform: mod6: look at ffa.ads
asciilifeform: mod6: note, Z : Words(1 .. WLength) := (others => 0);
asciilifeform: so you can see that the words are indexed from 1
asciilifeform: ergo foo.Z(foo.Z'First .. 4) gives you the lower 4 words, for instance
asciilifeform: ( which is WHY i numbered'em from 1 !! )
asciilifeform: the 'index arrays from whatever' thing in ada is genius, it abolished the megatonnes of increments and decrements that litter c proggies and inevitably lead to 'fencepost' eggog
asciilifeform: likewise the ability to refer to Foo'First and Foo'Last -- arrays know their size; and taking a slice from a nonexistent portion behaves SANELY (i.e. is a slice of size 0, and it is legal to assign another array to it, this is a null op)
mod6: X1.Z(X1.Z'First .. J) := X.Z(K + 1 .. X.Z'Last); << what about this one where J = 3?
asciilifeform: what's L in your case, mod6 ?
mod6: 7
asciilifeform: work out the arithmetic
asciilifeform: (7 + 1) / 2 == 4
asciilifeform: 7 - 4 == 3
mod6: i did that, see above.
asciilifeform: 4 cuts the obvious way
asciilifeform: 3 cuts into (3 + 1) / 2 == 2 and 3 - 2 = 1
asciilifeform: 2 cuts into 1 and 1; 1 is the basecase
mod6: K=4,J=3 when there are 8 words in FZ.
asciilifeform: if k=4 -> j= 4
asciilifeform: ( 8 - 4 = 4 )
mod6: (18:31) <+mod6> X.Z'Length; -- Words in each operand << does 'Length count from 0?
mod6: (18:32) <+asciilifeform> sure does, see ada spec
asciilifeform: length is the count of items in the array
mod6: so i figure if my X.Z is 8 words long, L = 7
mod6: lol, this is why i asked first!
asciilifeform: 'from 0' means that it is permissible to have an array of length 0 ( not in ffa ! but in ada )
asciilifeform: an array of length 0 has ~zero~ elements, not one
asciilifeform: and operations performed on it become no-ops
mod6: so to work it out:
mod6: L=8 then
asciilifeform: carry on mod6
mod6: K=(8+1)/2 == 4, J =(8-4) == 4
mod6: guess that clears that up. my apologies to TMSR~ for the spam.
mod6: <+asciilifeform> ACHTUNG s.nsa customers!! all outstanding-through-today FUCKGOATS have shipped << cool
asciilifeform: mod6: it is absolutely imperative that all future users of 'p' understand exactly how this thing worx
trinque: entirely worthwhile, for when one of us is next going through the Ada march.
asciilifeform: so in that sense it is not at all spam
mod6: huffers got flashed -96%. HEH
jhvh1: shinohai: The operation succeeded.
shinohai: lol mod6 caught it same time I did, was busy writing up the lulz and didn't see your msg.
mod6: :]
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: The operation succeeded.
ben_vulpes: first full day at the helm of gentoo workstation while rough, was a marked improvement over the previous wheelbarrow's spiky handles. many thanks to asciilifeform and trinque.
ben_vulpes: hey hey!
shinohai: I'm so accustomed to it now I can't imagine going back to my old ways.
trinque: pretty cool
mod6: i like mine.
mod6: overall fvwm works great, and opera works pretty well.
asciilifeform: neato ben_vulpes !
asciilifeform: and congrats.
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