Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2016-01-22 | 2016-01-24 → ↓
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform btw, re boxchess, ever showed you https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIgwkvM9P1g ?
assbot: S02.Ep19.Mat - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1S0DtAh )
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-01-2016#1382193 << i've yet to meet an electron who thought himself the ceo of the atom in question.
assbot: Logged on 23-01-2016 02:43:37; asciilifeform: 'electron moves because allah willed so'
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-01-2016#1382232 << even the simple step of "add flag to trb to dump mempool into file each time a block is found" would be helpful atm.
assbot: Logged on 23-01-2016 03:02:42; polarbeard: feed me :3
mircea_popescu: (speaking of which - de-stupidification of the logging process would be a fucking blessing already. debug.log, srsly ? how about error.log mempool.log connect.log blocks.log for starters ?)
polarbeard: ^ agree, also hex logs
mircea_popescu: well, at least sanely tabulated.
mircea_popescu: in any case, then you could start it with -logs=emcb for all 4, or otherwise whatever combo thereof.
mircea_popescu: and for the love of christ implement either rolling or else a maxsize for files or something.
polarbeard: roger
polarbeard: no logrotate love?
mircea_popescu: or that. anything.
mircea_popescu: as it stands right now it's made by sheepherds.
polarbeard: it's a miracle it works
mircea_popescu: ah, and also - fucking timestamps on loglines omfg.
mircea_popescu: who did that!
mircea_popescu: "here's a logline. it's from fuck you o'clock. you're welcome."
ben_vulpes: fuck you o'clock lol
ben_vulpes: didn't phf do something with timestamps?
polarbeard: haha, 'just derive it from block height man'
mircea_popescu: it doesn't even dump that, which would be insane but at least it'd be insane.
ben_vulpes: polarbeard: good idea except that syncing reference implementations to the best of my knowledge don't know the current blockheight
polarbeard: /ironic off :)
polarbeard: I'd be happy with unix_time space hex_message sent_or_received_bit
ben_vulpes: the log history that you're missing is that blockheight is the only non usg-shared time.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes it could always curl deedbot.org for the latest.
ben_vulpes: yes let's compile libcurl into the reference implementation
mircea_popescu: after all... we have fucking json in there for reasons!
ben_vulpes: i'm sure polarbeard can get on that train
ben_vulpes: choo choo!
polarbeard: moar deps
ben_vulpes: #nodeps
mircea_popescu: lol aren't you a bucket fulla sunshine.
ben_vulpes: writing software fills a boy with hate.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: what was the calculation you ran to determine the hashpower necessary to nail a block more or less every 24 hours?
mircea_popescu: #noderps #nodeps #nodes
ben_vulpes: #definitelynofuckinnode
mircea_popescu: that there's 6 blocks an hour and 24 hours in 24 hours ?
ben_vulpes: so one'd need ~ 1/144th of nethash?
mircea_popescu: well, yes, if one's tolerant with the variance
mircea_popescu: as you divide, variance divides by less.
ben_vulpes: ;;nethash
gribble: 892506470.131
polarbeard: blocks per day = (my_share_rate / difficulty ) x 86400 / block_time
mircea_popescu: still, it comes to about 2MW's worth, more or less.
polarbeard: my_share_rate = hash rate / 2^32
mircea_popescu: polarbeard so basically myhash/nethash * 144.
ben_vulpes: someone missed dimensional analysis in school?
polarbeard: yep, but nethash is not exact I think?
mircea_popescu: neither is 144.
ben_vulpes: approximation is a nifty wunderwaffen.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: schooled me rather hard on a good example around c3
mircea_popescu: i could hear you chuckling from here.
ben_vulpes: nethash is a joke is what it is
mircea_popescu: amusingly, the proper measure for nethash actually is PW or somesuch.
ben_vulpes: petawatts?
mircea_popescu: by the time it gets to 50%+1 all these approximations will be a lot less approximative
mircea_popescu: 50 TW, something like that.
ben_vulpes: that has a lot of assumptions on mining chip efficiency boss
mircea_popescu: nope. stable situation is where nethash is half the power generation.
mircea_popescu: chips irrespective, be they z80s or whatever startrek
ben_vulpes: but now.
ben_vulpes: not then.
mircea_popescu: universally.
mircea_popescu: "Hypothetically, according to Robert Engelman (Worldwatch institute), in order to prevent collapse, human civilization would have to stop increasing emissions within a decade regardless of the economy or population (2009)."
ben_vulpes: when you say that it comes to 2MW's worth.
mircea_popescu: ahh this shit's always such lulzyu lull.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes ah yes, yes.
mircea_popescu: currently we're only burning something to the tune of 30GW
mircea_popescu: which is scandalous, but hey.
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: 21co tried to make energy friendly chips, now they are trying to pawn them on users as "compooter"
mircea_popescu: ;;calc 3* 10^10 * 24 * 365
gribble: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
mircea_popescu: ;;calc 3* 10**10 * 24 * 365
gribble: 262800000000000
mircea_popescu: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_electricity_consumption << the esteemed republic is #13, after italy and above most of the world.
assbot: List of countries by electricity consumption - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/1ODTasQ )
mircea_popescu: it could light up almost 3000 chads.
thestringpuller: always imagined some d00d with access to nuclear power building a reactor on some island and using all the power for mining
ben_vulpes: did anyone ever run the numbers on what it would naively cost to lease the hashpower required to mint a block a day?
ben_vulpes: ;;help nethash
gribble: (nethash takes no arguments) -- Shows the current estimate for total network hash rate, in Ghps.
mircea_popescu: maybe 1% of the cost of a block, a day ?
mircea_popescu: of the subsidy of a block*
mircea_popescu: very simple mechanism to ACTUALLY improve your insurance : make a pool which pays 25.25 btc for the first block it finds each day.
mircea_popescu: this is a very neat way to solve an otherwise very thorny economical problem, and it will figure prominently in the future.
mircea_popescu: miners will not only optimize txn to include in blocks per se, but also "whose pool to mine nao at"
ben_vulpes: so what's the lowdown on the various pool payout maths?
mircea_popescu: what do you mean ?
ben_vulpes: every time i look into pool payout schemes my eyes glaze over and my fraud alert systems kick in.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35017 @ 0.000556 = 19.4695 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: there's 3 or 4 principal ways to do it, 2 or 3 of which are very slight variation on the same theme.
mircea_popescu: it's a complex topic but no, they're not fraudulent.
mircea_popescu: arrived at through a lot of experimental as well as theoretical effort.
ben_vulpes: has anyone written this up anywhere?
mircea_popescu: well... miners.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 81283 @ 0.00055562 = 45.1625 BTC [-] {3}
mircea_popescu: worth your time to research it for your own sharpening, it's all pretty clever.
ben_vulpes: myeah
ben_vulpes: perhaps i'll do that while i install os x on this laptop for the umpteenth time
ben_vulpes: fucking operating systems
mircea_popescu: should take about a week.
mircea_popescu: depends how hard you push the "but why!" pedal.
mircea_popescu: lotta history.
ben_vulpes: man imma have to learn chinese at this rate
ben_vulpes: ideograms, man.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35000 @ 0.00055963 = 19.5871 BTC [+] {2}
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: and i'm going to guess most of this history is on bitcointalk.org
assbot: Ukrainian Armor (The Rolling Stones - Gimme Shelter) - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1ODX1WS )
ben_vulpes: mats: badass
ben_vulpes: tis the age of the cmos
mats: the autoloader is cool
mats: for some reason the abrams doesn't have it
punkman: bon dia
punkman: ^ dirigible
assbot: Logged on 23-01-2016 06:06:51; ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: and i'm going to guess most of this history is on bitcointalk.org
assbot: Latest posts of: organofcorti ... ( http://bit.ly/1Pp0g8b )
punkman: ;;diffchange
gribble: Estimated percent change in difficulty this period | None % based on data since last change | 10.264 % based on data for last three days
assbot: MegaBigPower :: Info ... ( http://bit.ly/1PKOWNY )
punkman: "pleased to announce our ASIC BuyBack Program"
punkman: https://hedgy.co/mining.html "Buy Bitcoin Direct from MegaBigPower at a Discount on a Future Date. Auctions Occur Once Per Month."
punkman: "It has been quite a while since any new hardware became available, it is reasonable to assume that most small miners will have recouped the majority of what they initially outlaid for the hardware, and are now disinclined to continue ‘supporting the network’, whilst incurring unnecessary cost. So: MegaBigPowers ‘land-grab’, to acquire all this idle hashing power seems like a smart move. As,
punkman: once the next price run up begins, there will be a frantic scrabble to re-power all the mothballed rigs lying around."
assbot: Thoughts on the current state of Bitcoin mining | Blockchain Stuff ... ( http://bit.ly/1PKP93J )
punkman: "Bitfury recently announced their 28nm, 0.2 J/Gh offering (with some impressive efficiencies claimed) but have declined to inform us when they will be available, either-ways they do not sell to the public anymore. They also alluded to a 16nm chip with efficiencies as low as 0.02 due out later this year."
punkman: "KNC are in a similar holding pattern, awaiting production of their 16nm ‘Solar’ chip, with astonishing claims of 0.07 J/Gh,  They no longer sell to the public either."
kakobrekla: they sold until it was garbage, now that further decreasement in process size are hardly possible, they hold
punkman: oooh just noticed "March 2015"
kakobrekla: basically folks have been used as sort of catalyst for the reaction of them getting 16nm or so and are now no longer needed
punkman: hmm
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 50750 @ 0.00055964 = 28.4017 BTC [+]
ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-01-2016#1382516 << perhaps i am up too late, but i cannot make heads nor tails of this
assbot: Logged on 23-01-2016 05:53:27; mircea_popescu: maybe 1% of the cost of a block, a day ?
punkman: ben_vulpes: 1% extra
punkman: https://github.com/nothings/stb/blob/master/docs/other_libs.md "single-file public-domain/open source C libraries with minimal dependencies"
assbot: stb/other_libs.md at master · nothings/stb · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1Pp2TXI )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36700 @ 0.00055964 = 20.5388 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 53000 @ 0.00055964 = 29.6609 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 51500 @ 0.00056057 = 28.8694 BTC [+] {3}
shinohai: Height 394621 \o/
shinohai pops cork on muscadine wine even though it is 7 a.m.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30800 @ 0.00055961 = 17.236 BTC [-]
Azelphur: ;;rate RagnarDanneskjol -10 3 months of unpaid salary, will remove rating if payment ever arrives.
gribble: Error: For identification purposes, you must be authenticated to use the rating system.
Azelphur: ;;rate RagnarDanneskjol -10 3 months of unpaid salary, will remove rating if payment ever arrives.
gribble: Rating entry successful. Your rating of -10 for user RagnarDanneskjol has been recorded.
Azelphur sighs
Azelphur: Was really unsure whether to place that one (badmouthing former employer and all) but figured he'll probably look here for someone to replace me, and other people might not be so financially secure as I am.
punkman: told me he needed some contract work 3 months ago, but didn't follow through
punkman: ;;seen RagnarDanneskjol
gribble: RagnarDanneskjol was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 44 weeks, 0 days, 2 hours, 50 minutes, and 19 seconds ago: <RagnarDanneskjol> trinque - i am occasionally using the nick for continued development on punks ver. if anyone here's partial to the name I can pass it over. Wow that xm42
Azelphur: punkman, yea for me I did the work, he just keeps saying he will pay and continues to delay / make excuses
Azelphur: he said he;
Azelphur: whoops, he said he'd pay me an installment of £1000ish on Monday, then said it was a bank holiday and that he would send it out Tuesday, ignored me till yesterday where he claimed he had sent it out, but honestly he has said it's sent so many times and it didn't arrive I don't trust it any more
punkman: yeah that's not very good
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-01-2016#1382541 << yea, actually, the one thing bitcointalk is a source for is miner stuff. they never got any other venue , well noit publicly anyway
assbot: Logged on 23-01-2016 06:06:51; ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: and i'm going to guess most of this history is on bitcointalk.org
Azelphur: Indeed it's not, had no money over christmas. His misinformation has cost me money too
mircea_popescu: that didn't work out so well did it
Azelphur: apparently not, no
Azelphur: was great up until the whole not paying me thing
punkman: you were working with him for a while though, right?
Azelphur: punkman, yea, I started with him last October iirc
Azelphur: ie, October 2014
assbot: BitBet (S.BBET) December 2015 Statement on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Ppwpwi )
punkman: mircea_popescu: yeah I get a new cert on bitbet, issued 2016/01/21
mircea_popescu: thing ended up in spam, possibly because of the link
Azelphur: but yea, officially looking for new work now. Hopefully it's a good move and I'll get paid a little more (and at all :P)
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-01-2016#1382551 << ahaha no that's a balloon. dirigible is oval not buttshaped.
assbot: Logged on 23-01-2016 08:40:37; punkman: ^ dirigible
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-01-2016#1382554 << he also had a blog which was pretty good.
assbot: Logged on 23-01-2016 08:52:39; assbot: Latest posts of: organofcorti ... ( http://bit.ly/1Pp0g8b )
mircea_popescu: iirc the dude hated me for some reason.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-01-2016#1382567 << well, actually, they sold back when they had to take the poisoned dollars of the masses, a few bucks at a time. once they n olonger need that, they don't. who eats garbage if they can help it.
assbot: Logged on 23-01-2016 09:03:04; kakobrekla: they sold until it was garbage, now that further decreasement in process size are hardly possible, they hold
mircea_popescu: Azelphur notsure why you're not using the assbot wot anyway.
Azelphur: mircea_popescu, haven't been around much recently so haven't familiarised myself with it
mircea_popescu: anyway, there was a bank holiday on monday. in the us. some black speechmaker dude
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-01-2016#1382242 << tell a bit about the concentrated thing
assbot: Logged on 23-01-2016 03:32:24; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-01-2016#1382094 << you deeply misunderstand what "investor grade" means in this context. the point is that he is RARE. you understand this ? the fundamental property of capital control in any functioning society without exception possible is that it must be concentrated.
Azelphur: mircea_popescu, yea I know, dude is very good at excuses, as I say it has been 3 months, and even if he has sent a bank transfer it's still only for a small percentage of total owed
asciilifeform: is it the '1024 chickens' idea ?
mircea_popescu: nope. it's the "brain resides in skullbox not spread out throughout cells like mitochondria".
asciilifeform: same thing, no ?
mircea_popescu: i guess it can be viewed so, yeah. ok.
asciilifeform: i'm trying to grasp how it isn't an argument for gosplan tho
mircea_popescu: the problem here is that both ox and chickens are separate from the thing they pull.
mircea_popescu: ah, this IS an argument for gosplan. the only one.
Azelphur: if it was just missed payment by a few days I'd be cool with it, heck I was fine with it up until about 2 weeks late, stopped working when it was a month late, and public -10 has only happened after 3 months late
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, the argument against gosplan is that "fuck you".
mircea_popescu: while you personally may not be inclined, i am, and without me it dies.
mircea_popescu: Azelphur i c.
Azelphur: started to get really annoyed when I had the choice of taking money out of my cold wallet or taking a loan from my parents to make rent over christmas - not cool :/
asciilifeform: so mircea_popescu doesn't have an argument against gosplan ?! other than not liking the colour & shape on purely aesthetic grounds?
mircea_popescu: the argument against gosplan is exactly the argument against "hi guise i am ceo".
mircea_popescu: "who the fuck are you ?"
Azelphur: I feel bad -10ing him though, I like to work things out with people and it just sucks that he's not meeting his obligations or even being reasonable really
mircea_popescu: which is why all the red square nuclear bomb displays and etc. obligate pompousness.
asciilifeform: lucky we are that 'hi guise im ceo' has no army and no navy.
mircea_popescu: it's a forced mistake.
asciilifeform: (except when he does, e.g., obamitler)
mircea_popescu: problem being, they don't actually help, just serve to alienate me further.
asciilifeform: only because the beast is immunocompromised
mircea_popescu: i am immune to it, it depends on me. this creates a certain situation of power in the field.
asciilifeform: depends how ?
mircea_popescu: anyway, in the expression of the castrated subhumans that nevertheless are intelligent enough to notice the problem, this is usually called the "knowledge problem", ie poor state can't acquire and process enough information to make a reasonable gosplan.
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, this is a flattering if incorrect representation. like saying "unfortunately whale did not have enough evolution mojo to grow wings". yeasure.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i have no idea how to formulate this better than to refer you to the (oft mentioned, by me) worms dispute.
mircea_popescu: king can not invest by staff. he doesn't have a staff to give.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: modern usg is going for 'eastern despot' caesaropapism.
mircea_popescu: which is why they keep inventing academic honors for the emperor. they work admirably, don't they.
asciilifeform: hey it worked for the 5000yr egyptianreich!
mircea_popescu: your idea that "5000 yr egyptianreich" is not unlike a 1900s victorian idea that "5000 yr chinareich". wut ?
mircea_popescu: they had more dynasties than americans had sexual partners.
mircea_popescu: ironically, the people who could be caesar ie emperor and pontifex max uniformly do not wish to be, so much so it's almost a heuristic.
mircea_popescu: and they do not wish to be not because they somehow give a shit about brutus and brutish jealousies.
mircea_popescu: but, at this juncture, augustus' memoirs are recomended re-read. might explain the vecchio rotinculo much closer than before.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-01-2016#1382542 << ukrs are apparently really good at shooting into 1) air 2) earth 3) defenceless farm houses. who'dhaveknown.
assbot: Logged on 23-01-2016 06:17:35; mats: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5R9SZM2jaE
asciilifeform: spiffy firewurx.
asciilifeform: and wake me up when they ~make~ a tank.
mircea_popescu: aww why the haet!
mircea_popescu: dja know that the AVERAGE ammo expenditure per enemy killed is in the 2mn range by now ?
mircea_popescu: people keep mocking hollywood marksmanship. mostly because they've never been in a warzone.
asciilifeform: well also because did not go to kindergarten, never learned concept of suppressive fire
mircea_popescu: seeing how it's about 2kj per bullet, we find that each enemy combatant takes ~1MWh in bullets only!
mircea_popescu: and that's on the modest 39mm. pretty much a thing of the past, everyone doing 51 now amirite. so 2x that.
asciilifeform was very very confused until realized that mircea_popescu is counting the ~length~ of the shell !
mircea_popescu: well yes. 39 is the old ak/sks russian thing. nato has a bigger one.
asciilifeform: today as in '70s the man-portable small arms fire the 'intermediate' things and the squad guns - the 1890s longer one.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 101766 @ 0.00055833 = 56.819 BTC [-] {3}
mircea_popescu: well, depends. the large nato round is really like the hunting .308
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: http://s242.photobucket.com/user/Akalvarez_2007/media/PANA0003.jpg.html << sov-new (ak74), nato-new (m16), sov-old (ak47), nato-old-fullsize, sov-old-fullsize (mosin, and all ru squad guns, 1890s round)
assbot: Ammo Side By Side Photo by Akalvarez_2007 | Photobucket ... ( http://bit.ly/1KwjWQb )
asciilifeform: notice the very archaic flanged shell and rimmed bottom on the last
mircea_popescu: yeah lol.
mircea_popescu: century old bullet!
asciilifeform: oldest rifle cartridge still in mass use.
asciilifeform: more than century.
asciilifeform played with a bag of empty shells of those, as a boy
assbot: Logged on 23-01-2016 05:23:47; mircea_popescu: and for the love of christ implement either rolling or else a maxsize for files or something.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-01-2016#1382433 << all i really want presently is to dump mempool. and to have some means of removing ANYTHING whatsoever from it. because if we had this, we COULD semispace-garbagecollect.
assbot: Logged on 23-01-2016 05:20:23; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-01-2016#1382232 << even the simple step of "add flag to trb to dump mempool into file each time a block is found" would be helpful atm.
asciilifeform: (add what belongs in the pool to a new pool, then nuke what remains. also defrags...)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform let the guy do something useful wouldja. step at a time.
assbot: Logged on 23-01-2016 05:33:08; mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes it could always curl deedbot.org for the latest.
mircea_popescu: and drink humour vitamins!
asciilifeform: l0lzamins
mircea_popescu: very fucking hard making jokes about bitcoin codebase, seeing the state it's in.
asciilifeform: 'who has been in the army, does not laugh in the circus' (tm) (r) (su)
mircea_popescu: like fucking pagliacci over here, just turns to sad.
mircea_popescu: ahahaha quite.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-01-2016#1382549 << this looks disturbingly like BingoBoingo's material
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-01-2016#1382561 << this seems like a deviously clever notion until you recall that most of the asic miners were - quite likely deliberately - not built to last
assbot: Logged on 23-01-2016 08:59:13; punkman: "It has been quite a while since any new hardware became available, it is reasonable to assume that most small miners will have recouped the majority of what they initially outlaid for the hardware, and are now disinclined to continue ‘supporting the network’, whilst incurring unnecessary cost. So: MegaBigPowers ‘land-grab’, to acquire all this idle hashing power seems like a smart move. As,
asciilifeform: (they never got the wear circuits to behave plausibly like a real-life bathtub curve, either. so the things would routinely ship with varying number of working hash cores, etc)
mircea_popescu: iirc the overall "delivered asic, all cores working" was in the <5% zone.
asciilifeform: i've always wanted to do a bit of microscopy on those, see if there was a set of magicks for re-enabling the 'accidented' cores
kakobrekla: deliberately? imo overlyconfident.
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: the whole racket stood on a solid column of chump, and was designed around such
mircea_popescu: more or less. really, esp early on, it was just blindly flailing.
kakobrekla: they didnt have the time to make anything past "this will prolly work"
mircea_popescu: easy to reinterpret what memory salvaged of the midden of history, but if you were there and saw the missing 95% from that story...
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: if this were so, there would have been many asic co. sunk by a taped out dud
asciilifeform: afaik there were none.
mircea_popescu: and so there were.
mircea_popescu: ahahaha don't kid, you make my heart jump so.
asciilifeform: but i - obviously - wasn't there.
asciilifeform: nor wanted to be.
mircea_popescu: of the people who scammed their "investors, at least half, to two thirds, were scammed in turn, by their "providers".
kakobrekla: i did say probably, not possibly.
asciilifeform: yes but any public intel suggesting a taped-out total dud ?
asciilifeform: or just 'took the money & ran'
mircea_popescu: asicminer had a fully blown up run. so did bfl, twice iirc.
mircea_popescu: so did many others.
mircea_popescu: there were, up until early 2013 or so, more dead runs than live.
asciilifeform: i am specificially thinking of ~ic~ rather than ~board~
asciilifeform: i remember very well the smoking ~boards~
mircea_popescu: pre-packaged chips.
kakobrekla: afaik there were 'duds' i dont recall specifics from top of the head
asciilifeform: then yes.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-01-2016#1382579 << this is a mega-l0l, worth reading! turns out, one day they decided to play 'obfuscated c contest' at ft meade
assbot: Logged on 23-01-2016 09:39:27; BingoBoingo: http://tweetnacl.cr.yp.to/software.html
mircea_popescu: actually a proper history of early mining would be a most respectable endeavour for a serious, diligent historian at this point.
asciilifeform: (srsly who the FUCK uses 'salsa' etc)
mircea_popescu: of course they're busy fucking around doing nothing much. but hey, gosplan!
punkman: I'd like to contribute more debug-related patches, could maybe split the gui-snip stuff from debug_sanity patch, and start over.
punkman: does asciilifeform like anything from djb?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 68950 @ 0.00056063 = 38.6554 BTC [+] {2}
punkman: https://github.com/SergiusTheBest/plog interesting logging library, less than 1kloc, includes simple log rotation
assbot: GitHub - SergiusTheBest/plog: Portable and simple C++ logging library ... ( http://bit.ly/1KwmNbS )
asciilifeform: punkman: quite a few things
mircea_popescu: punkman start over, how you mean ?
asciilifeform: punkman: i'm a fan of the man's cryptoanalytic work. but the sv-popularity of his cipher primitives is concerning
asciilifeform: problem is that one doesn't get to 'make a name' in academe as 'cryptographer' by pushing rsa.
asciilifeform: just like you don't become a famous small arms designer by refining the kalash
asciilifeform: even if ~that would be the Right Thing~
asciilifeform: so he's stuck with the ecc gargle.
asciilifeform: and with devising block ciphers, which is very easy to 'do'
asciilifeform: !s from:mircea_popescu originality
assbot: 6 results for 'from:mircea_popescu originality' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=from%3Amircea_popescu+originality
asciilifeform: ^see also
mircea_popescu: djb = bernstein ?
mircea_popescu: guy's brilliant, hard to argue with that. but yes, seems he's being slowly ground to paste by "teh system"
asciilifeform: one way to look at it is that he isn't much more of a 'free man' than, e.g., i am
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform actually may want to write him a letter, iirc he was also all about fits in head but arrived there on slightly different path
asciilifeform: in that he has to work on certain flavours of shit icecream, in order to eat
mircea_popescu: didn't he end up basically rewriting sendmail because sendmail sucked ?
punkman: mircea_popescu: start over, meaning make a new debug_sanity patch with more improvements (and without the gui snipping parts bundled together)
mircea_popescu: this with a view to better semantics, or with a view to reinstate gui ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: my original thumbs-down for his patch was on account of bundling multiple-unlikes
mircea_popescu: it does carry water.
asciilifeform: the vestigial wx crapolade needs to go
asciilifeform: but ~in own patch~
asciilifeform: this makes it considerably easier to evaluate every path
punkman: both gui-snip and debug-sanity are gonna touch a lot of files though, and I would prefer to do this once
asciilifeform: 'does this do X and ONLY X'
asciilifeform: punkman: this is very much the wrong idea
asciilifeform: we aren't trying to minimize patch-line-counts AS SUCH
mircea_popescu: punkman certainly a worthy attempt, even if mod6 prolly won't be able to put it in current release.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform well yes, but not what he said.
mircea_popescu: what i took it to mean was that if he's gonna load his head with shit, would rather do two things than one and reload
asciilifeform: ok to make the two patches in one sitting
asciilifeform: but they gotta be separate.
mircea_popescu: that small logger thing actually looks pretty good
mircea_popescu: to my documentedly noobish eye.
punkman: can do the gui-snip thing first, work is already done
mircea_popescu: incidentally, why the fuck does bitcoin have json support ? do we actually want this ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is still there because that is how the rpc thing works
mircea_popescu: yes but fuck that, we have a protocol that then imports json ?
punkman: need to have a format for api output anyway right?
asciilifeform: i very dearly wanted to rip it out, but then all the robotics folks are presently 'come to expect' will have to be scrapped.
mircea_popescu: this strikes me as the same fundamental insanity of "we'll replace bdb with leveldb in the sense that WE KEEP BOTH!!1".
asciilifeform: if you recall, i wanted to replace it with unix signals.
asciilifeform: or at the worst, a simple telnet-type protocol
mircea_popescu: i do but i don't recall why i wasn't so hot about that.
asciilifeform: because it sux
asciilifeform: but unix doesn't give us a rpc-thing that doesn't suck
mircea_popescu: yes because it sucks lol. if you're happy with that much.
punkman: standard format would be nicer than new invention
mircea_popescu: punkman only if "standard format" doesn't expand at pre-compile time into "here's a debalanced tree of 547657698 "standards""
asciilifeform: punkman: when the standard does not fit-in-head and yields 200kB of heathen code - it can go die
mircea_popescu: it is ipso definitio not a standard.
punkman: there are some tiny json libraries
mircea_popescu: just a glorified mess.
mircea_popescu: the implementation is not the standard.
asciilifeform: punkman: any written by wot men?
mircea_popescu: even before wot issue considered : there's two branches to corectness.
mircea_popescu: one is code, the other standard. it helps me nothing that you've made one small if this makes the other huge.
assbot: Logged on 21-01-2016 22:16:42; asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-01-2016#1380266 << yes! and you can almost ~define~ 'sane system' this way. with the caveat that it can't be a non-orthogonal fudge like a program consisting of one line 'start_bitcoind()' nor anything in that spirit. ORTHOGONAL operators.
mircea_popescu: i guess so.
asciilifeform: ~genuine~ reduction in complexity specifically excludes shenanigans where it is 'swept under the rug' and hidden somewhere else
punkman: well, something for the foundation to decide, whether json is to be kept or replaced with something else
asciilifeform: it is intrinsically retarded
asciilifeform: and the logical replacement is sexpr.
asciilifeform: which is 'standard' that fits in ONE MOTHERFUCKING PARAGRAPH
asciilifeform: and correctly implementable by a stray dog
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 88000 @ 0.00056176 = 49.4349 BTC [+] {5}
punkman: so if I talk to to bitcoind with python I get sexpr in ascii or otherwise?
asciilifeform: in ascii.
asciilifeform: json is really sexpr but was dropped as a baby
asciilifeform: all sv garbage is of this general flavour, incidentally
punkman: could have both and break compatibility later
asciilifeform: i.e. something built by the hands of ACTUAL people, that WORKED, but taken by jolt-cola-drinking jwz types and 'hacked!111 1333773d' into... what we have
asciilifeform: anyway i did not touch the json thing for the same reason i did not touch the whitespace formatting
asciilifeform: ... because it does not solve any of the dire problems of the era
asciilifeform: 'deck chairs on titanic'
punkman: what is there to do on titanic other than abandon ship?
asciilifeform: the correct model is that there are no other ships.
asciilifeform: and the ocean is made of boiling oil.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-01-2016#1382747 << ftr i do not like this one bit. WHY ADD 1000 LINES OF ????
assbot: Logged on 23-01-2016 15:11:54; punkman: https://github.com/SergiusTheBest/plog interesting logging library, less than 1kloc, includes simple log rotation
asciilifeform: this is how we got prb.
asciilifeform: 'let's add this useful!11111 pheature'
punkman: and if prb had sane logging we wouldn't be having this discussion
asciilifeform: it is bad enough that trb has 500 man-year of study baked into it. let's now add a 501st ?
asciilifeform: fuck that.
asciilifeform: ergo replacing, e.g., openssl, with a 1000 line thing THAT CAN BE UNDERSTOOD, is a worthy thing
asciilifeform: adding an ~additional~ turd to the ball of shit, is not.
asciilifeform: removing boost would be a worthy thing. BUT NOT if it multiplies the line count 2x, OR if it entails forcing gcc5 build
asciilifeform: (as discussed in the c++11 thread)
asciilifeform: ~likewise~ any change that increases substantially the number of lines written by non-wot folks, is ipso facto a loss.
asciilifeform: i thought all of this was elementarily obvious.
asciilifeform: with that in mind, YES, the logs need timestamps, or better still, an adjustable format, verbosity levels, etc.
asciilifeform: BUT NOT by adding some derp's 'log library'
asciilifeform: 'let's add the library' is, in mircea_popescu's well-chosen wordz, 'the hole through which the night slides in'
punkman: I didn't even dare suggest adding it of course!
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 135000 @ 0.00056336 = 76.0536 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47450 @ 0.00056336 = 26.7314 BTC [+]
adlai: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-01-2016#1381103 << seems like everybody who doesn't lurk in #crypto-crackpots missed the joke
assbot: Logged on 22-01-2016 16:17:47; PeterL: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-01-2016#1376728 http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-01-2016#1376731 << Later I realized why I missed the isomer joke: L is isomer of D, R is isomer of S, not quite interchangeable
assbot: Logged on 23-01-2016 15:55:03; asciilifeform: and the logical replacement is sexpr.
mircea_popescu: heh im bashing that baby stuff. alf huffed the right paint this morning :D
asciilifeform: achtung, panzers! does 99.39.110.89 (99-39-110-89.lightspeed.gdrpmi.sbcglobal.net) belong to one of ye lot ?
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-01-2016#1382830 << not so. the first step of work is cleaning out the workspace. it is the work of truly inept management to impede on this "because it does not directly contribute to productivity"
assbot: Logged on 23-01-2016 16:00:29; asciilifeform: 'deck chairs on titanic'
mircea_popescu: re BingoBoingo 's https://voat.co/v/fatpeoplehate/comments/808993/4006420 << check out the ugly head of puritanism rearing its head yet again. "if i don't enjoy anything in the world i will surely be spared doom!!1". nothing's quite as resilient as idiocy.
assbot: Ruston's Guide to Spotting and Avoiding Fatfishing | fatpeoplehate ... ( http://bit.ly/1Qre8hh )
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-01-2016#1382843 << in italian accent "Did you ever think about what you're going to do on the toilet? (yelling) What are you going to do on the toilet!"
assbot: Logged on 23-01-2016 16:09:28; asciilifeform: adding an ~additional~ turd to the ball of shit, is not.
asciilifeform: l0l! is this a ref to something?
assbot: Seinfeld - Edward Scissorhands BEST SCENE EVER - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1PurcNu )
mircea_popescu: anyway. it's one thing to add "a library". it's another to "import this 1k lines that i read myself".
asciilifeform: if gonna add 1k lines, make it... tinyscheme-89
asciilifeform: implement tx debugger, sane logger instrumentation, and 101 other things, IN IT
mircea_popescu: now tinyscheme may be a good import
asciilifeform: so perhaps i can now admit to having this quietly on my hdd.
mircea_popescu: but conceptually, in my head at least, more of a "bitcoind migrates into bitcoinos" thing
asciilifeform: aha. slowly cut off chunks & replace with it.
asciilifeform: until the whole thing, one fine day, starts just fine in a mildly massaged sbcl
asciilifeform: and nobody even notices the cpp is gone.
mircea_popescu: anyway, as a general point : even if you did compute a fastest route, and even if in fact you are correct (which is fundamentally an undecidable problem), there is still no reason to panic if phenomena goes a slightly more circuitous path. there are at least two good reasons, both political. one's education (ie, benefit of the ingroup), the other ... well let's just say the other's for the benefit of the outgroup.
polarbeard: s/jsonrpc/ipc socket/g
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: sbcl?
mircea_popescu: holy shit why does that substitution need recursion.
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: http://sbcl.org
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: my personal favourite readily-available lisp runtime
polarbeard: and plug-in whatever you like
thestringpuller: i barely "know" C, how am I ever gonna learn LISP?!?!?
thestringpuller: LISP is like the masters saw.
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: will have to spend a weekend, possibly risk opening a book
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 123300 @ 0.00056234 = 69.3365 BTC [-]
thestringpuller: "When you handle the master carpenter's tools, chances are that you'll cut your hand."
thestringpuller: I want to be competent/sane before attempting to pick up master carpenter's tools.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: unrelatedly, i now envision your toilet-of-the-future as looking rather like a cray-II.
mircea_popescu: for the record, no girl liked the idea.
asciilifeform: cray 1 rather
asciilifeform: oh? why not
mircea_popescu: "would this be a punishment toilet ? for like the dungeon ?" "do you think the jacuzzi is a punishment pool ?" "ewww!"
mircea_popescu: now doesn't want to go into jacuzzi.
mircea_popescu: anyway, my idea was originalyl that it's a collaborative tool par excellence. girls better support each other's back, lest they fall in.
mircea_popescu: but i suspect this heavy... butted aesop is a little too hamfisted for the actual butts in question.
asciilifeform: with no backs, interesting.
asciilifeform: i really pictured more of a cray.
asciilifeform: (vs gigantic ivan iv - style cauldron)
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: yes. see also earlier link.
mircea_popescu: dude speaking of "provability" bs. FSB are "provably secure" because it can be proven they're at least as hard as regular syndrome decoding. which is np complete. while we don't actually know if THAT is in fact resolvable in polynomial time or not, nevertheless... PROVEDLY SECURE!!11
mircea_popescu: "this bag is as heavy as that car. we don't know whether that car is just a cardboard cutout or what, but hey, provedly heavy bag! !1"
asciilifeform: don't expect ~sane~ crypto out of the leprosorium
asciilifeform: this is elementary.
asciilifeform: see also the ecc claptrap
asciilifeform: (as secure as 8x the bits of rsa!1111111)
mircea_popescu: and incidentally, as a bright mathematical mind pointed out once, "at some point the effort invested in stating rsa is 'widely researched' exceeds the effort ever expended into researching it"
mircea_popescu: it's one thing when five people who spend most of their time doing things gather in bohr's outhouse and agree "x is prolly hard".
mircea_popescu: it's another... eh, anyway. what am i doing.
asciilifeform: funnily enough, we did a walkover of the shmoo talks, incl. the crackpot algebraiceraser crypto thing, at the slave galley
asciilifeform: and even there folks chortled when i asked 'notice no mention of complexity class proof or even assumption'
mircea_popescu: the one thing i wonder, asciilifeform , is why do we always talk in strawmen.
mircea_popescu: remember new guy, got overwhelmed a few days back.
assbot: Logged on 22-01-2016 16:43:36; AdrianG: why do you guys only speak in strawmen?
thestringpuller: if they rip out OpenSSL for libsecp256k1 won't this cause undeterministic behavior in signature checking? Or does the "comooniteee" just want to not check signatures anymore?
asciilifeform: i was not able to decipher this
assbot: Logged on 23-01-2016 13:32:55; Azelphur: ;;rate RagnarDanneskjol -10 3 months of unpaid salary, will remove rating if payment ever arrives.
ben_vulpes: i mean poor Azelphur
mircea_popescu: i just read it as "the difference between one's understanding and the course requirement, call it D, is the maximal aperture past which useful metaphors (with an utility marked as U) and inept strawmen (with a deviance marked as -U) can still be distinguished"
mircea_popescu: ie, if U > D, U and U' are undiscernible.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu had a spiffy article, 'variety speak' a while back.
asciilifeform: n00bz should not only read the logz but be grateful they don't have to learn 5,000 kanji first.
mircea_popescu: of course the correct method to learn greek consists of reading the source material and the angry german commentary in alternation.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu may have his reasons for being so friendly and welcoming but bearing a deep suspicion of new faces in #b-a has saved me untold heartbreak (and no doubt riches, if i were to listen to robert viragh's ilk)
adlai: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-01-2016#1382886 << for starters, stop capitalizing it... LISP is from the same era as ALGOL and nobody uses either one today
assbot: Logged on 23-01-2016 18:03:25; thestringpuller: i barely "know" C, how am I ever gonna learn LISP?!?!?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: where do you suppose they put spent ninjashotguns ?
asciilifeform: or do they rebarrel'em somewhere.
mircea_popescu: in marriages.
mircea_popescu: this is the traditional pathway of the derp. spends youth being inept, adolescence being revolutionary, gets metabolized by sub-slut grade female into "family unit"
asciilifeform: adlai: eh, if everyone knew this, how would we readily distinguish n00bz in conversation..
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: aren't there a million open source for 'em to get cycled through? each no doubt in need of deproblematizing some codebase of genderered nouns?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: possibly. but iirc that one was quite ready for the glue factory
ben_vulpes: with just a touch of retraining he could be right at home in a bike advocacy group
adlai: asciilifeform: because they'll mix up set, setf, get, getf, and never quite understand the long form expansion definitions
ben_vulpes: but airbnb started out with traffic calming!
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: the kind that puts caltrops in front of trucks on a highway ?
mircea_popescu: interestingly enough, senor vulpes understands quite exactly what i don't like about the subculture.
ben_vulpes: i mean traffic calming is good for children!
ben_vulpes: you should put a wifi in that kid.
thestringpuller: adlai: I'm already lost. I'm super n00b when it comes to master's tools.
ben_vulpes: thestringpuller: oh ffs sit down with clojure for a week if you're so scared
ben_vulpes: php and c are actually bigger pains in the ass and less useable than any lisp
adlai: thestringpuller: if you really want to learn CL, get used to feeling lost because it takes a couple years / decades to reach all the keys on this piano
asciilifeform: eh no it doesn't, wtf
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 85400 @ 0.00056314 = 48.0922 BTC [+] {2}
thestringpuller: maybe not for alfie who came out the womb with a commodore64 or some shiznit
adlai: well, longer than wrapping your head around all of C or $blub
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: for my own benefit what do i understand about bike advocacy?
asciilifeform: 978 motherfucking keywords in ansi std.
adlai: thestringpuller: how about i just hand you http://l1sp.org and you never feel lost again
assbot: L1sp.org - a redirect service for Common Lisp documentation ... ( http://bit.ly/1JsRSST )
mircea_popescu: <ben_vulpes> with just a touch of retraining he could be right at home in a bike advocacy group <
ben_vulpes: oh the endless blithering of nonsense?
mircea_popescu: a certain sort, a certain type.
asciilifeform: incidentally it blew my mind when ben_vulpes told us that some of his workers commute on bike
asciilifeform: i can only picture a sordid 1890s shanghai
asciilifeform: or vietnam
mircea_popescu: http://tweetnacl.cr.yp.to/20131229/tweetnacl.h << for my own education, why the fuck does a .h file in a 2 file project need to say #ifndef TWEETNACL_H #define TWEETNACL_H endif ?
asciilifeform: (do any of them commute by riksha ?)
adlai: asciilifeform: my point is that it takes years of working in CL to have multiple opportunities to use each of those symbols to solve original problems
ben_vulpes: the notion of a functional town only mildly corrupted by cars must be as foreign to you as an atomic dirigible.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: many folks use editors that automatically insert the doubleifdef-preventer thing
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: aaaactually my home town had very few cars
asciilifeform: but nobody but children on bicycle
asciilifeform: most folks rode trams, trolleys, a few buses.
ben_vulpes: ah well those are absent and generally reserved for the poverty stricken or physically disabled
asciilifeform: aha like here
ben_vulpes: and the cultural hatred of cars runs very deep.
adlai: asciilifeform: so amsterdam must literally be the circles of hell for you :P
asciilifeform: trains in d.c. are interesting in that they carry folks from hobo to gs-15
ben_vulpes: it'll be rather easy to turn that into a bloodthirsty hunt for californians alter.
ben_vulpes: later*
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 53804 @ 0.00056336 = 30.311 BTC [+]
thestringpuller: why is everyone hating on cyclist? you alfie of all people stuck in the horrid traffic of DC on a daily basis.
thestringpuller: in peak traffic takes just as long to travel to work on bike as by car
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: i've nothing against it per se but it is firmly linked in my head with the third world
mircea_popescu: because he's poor, young and in the way.
ben_vulpes: he can't imagine a situation in which people are not condemned to his own version of hell.
thestringpuller: i'd rather just not sit in traffic and get more fat, that is one step above purgatory.
assbot: Logged on 15-01-2016 06:47:07; adlai: buy a bike, you'll learn more about trading and addiction from not getting run over than you will from losing money on plebian status symbols
assbot: Logged on 23-01-2016 18:34:01; asciilifeform: but nobody but children on bicycle
asciilifeform: as a driver, i always despised the self-righteous pedaller who was convinced that he 'saved mother earth'
ben_vulpes: no, just his spine.
asciilifeform: does pedal man know how much fuel is wasted by the mile-long column stuck behind him ?
ben_vulpes: this is a hallmark of a miserable place to live.
mircea_popescu: i never lived anywhere that wouldn't have just splattered the derp.
mircea_popescu: nor do i see why i would.
ben_vulpes: sane places seperate the traffic.
asciilifeform: if bicyclist is permitted on a public street, so should horse !
polarbeard: so now driving cars is altruism
asciilifeform: i would happily commute on horse.
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: this mile long column exist regardless of cyclist in my neck of the woods
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40100 @ 0.00056336 = 22.5907 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you ever brushed a horse ?
ben_vulpes: and as a matter of fact horses /are/ allowed on the road.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: not once.
ben_vulpes: and fwiw i'd rather ride a horse too.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: depends on locale
adlai: recently tlv municipality outlawed horse-driven antique furniture carts ("alte zachen"), yet another law nobody cares about
asciilifeform: horse is not permitted here except when used by police
thestringpuller: ben_vulpes: there is a d00d who sold his car for horse at livestock auction where my gf lives.
mircea_popescu: yeah well. horse maintenance is a lotta work. the whole horseback thing is a honest signal of a hierarchical society.
asciilifeform: auto is not so much less work
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: met the horse people by the river yet?
thestringpuller: thing is actually pretty fast, but upkeep seems a bit high, and of course the thing eventually dies
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes the polo thing you mean ?
ben_vulpes: the people who live by the river plate
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform somewhat less work, and importantly machineable.
ben_vulpes: and who raise their children on horses.
mircea_popescu: i dun think so.\
ben_vulpes: very nice people.
ben_vulpes: put together a lovely parillada.
ben_vulpes: have approximately zero pesos to rub together.
mircea_popescu: any hot gypo chicks ?
ben_vulpes: met them through a south african who coached the greek olympic polo? dressage? teams before greece stopped paying for niceties like that.
ben_vulpes: i'm sure you can find cooze wherever
mircea_popescu: ;;ud cooze
gribble: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Cooze | A cooze is a superficial, shallow, provincial, and generally ignorant girl, who is so intellectually and socially repulsive, that their only r...
mircea_popescu: check it out, that's a new one.
ben_vulpes: also wrong.
ben_vulpes: shorthand in my world for cunt.
mircea_popescu: what's all this "Society" so and so talk anyway.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i thought it was traditionally 'cunt with the rifling worn off'
ben_vulpes: well it's urban dictionary, they're obsessed with their betters
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes this wouldn't be a result of tarantino-cultism would it ?
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: can be. context dependent. above usage is just assumption that mircea_popescu can magic gurlz out of the air in bsas gutter, river plate shores, nile and probably inside the pyramids even
mircea_popescu: one of his worse monologues.
ben_vulpes: which'd that be?
mircea_popescu: "Ok, let me tell ya what "Like a Virgin"'s about."
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform except cunt's not made out of soap, to wear off. it strengthens through usage.
asciilifeform: work-hardens ?
asciilifeform: like aluminum ?
mircea_popescu: pretty much.
ben_vulpes: i swear we've done this thread
mircea_popescu: i think we might also do it again!
asciilifeform: until hard.
ben_vulpes: tonight, tonight...
mircea_popescu: imaqine all the people...
mircea_popescu: living in harmoneeee
ben_vulpes: hey y'all might appreciate my latest gentoo quest oopsie
ben_vulpes: i got the whole orchestra wired up, stage3 installed, everything mounted, uefi boot boss vanquished
ben_vulpes: and let the fucking laptop run out of batteries 2 seconds after running `emerge dhcpcd`
ben_vulpes: and this /retarded/ home router does not want to accept static IP declarations.
mircea_popescu: wait what ?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: a hundy buys you a pf-capable box with 3 GB eth jacks
mircea_popescu: what router is that.
ben_vulpes: actiontec pk5001a
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: would be horrified at the state of my internal network
ben_vulpes: probably everone
mircea_popescu: so throw it out, today.
ben_vulpes: look here i only recently decided to move the toilet out of the kitchen okay
mircea_popescu: ahahahaha what.
ben_vulpes: you neckbeards with a decade of setting up your own personal infrastructure have completely forgotten what it's like to be a clueless noob
asciilifeform: phun phakt, my father's childhood was in a flat where the toilet ~literally~ was in the kitchen, behind a curtain.
mircea_popescu: "i one day stumbled on this irc channel, and it changed my life. #totallynotacult."
ben_vulpes lets mircea_popescu say it
mircea_popescu: speaking of insane idiocies. one apt i'm leasing i nthe fabulous ba has the following INSANE arrangement : two bedrooms, united by a 3x3 hallway, off one side of which is a 3x4 bathroom, and off the corner of which is... ANOTHER, tiny, 1x2 bathroom.
mircea_popescu: because making a proper, 6x4 bathroom to unite two bedrooms is EVIL
ben_vulpes: on the flip side i have a far better understanding of how linux machines boot now. so, not a particularly horrendous waste of time.
mircea_popescu: and must have little hallway.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it was prolly intended for 2+ humanoids who don't fuck
mircea_popescu: if i end up buying it i'm so tearing down that shit...
asciilifeform: we have gigantic towers of these very same things here, and more being built as we speak
asciilifeform: !s communal
assbot: 19 results for 'communal' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=communal
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the notion of sharing space and not fucking is almost as ridiculous as the notion of female wearing clothes before 30.
mircea_popescu: i get it, if you're visiting the 3 floor, 100k sqft country house of the marquis de Q you might not be fucking EVERYONE there.
mircea_popescu: but apartments ? gimme a break.
assbot: Micro apartments as small as 150 square feet NW Portland | KGW.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1PuuyQQ )
asciilifeform: l0l tokyo
assbot: Tiny space, big price: Micro-apartments in Portland ... ( http://bit.ly/1PuuFvK )
ben_vulpes: eh it's not going to last
ben_vulpes: epic inventory hitting the market q4 2016 q2 2017
mircea_popescu: uh. 150 sq ft ?
asciilifeform: inventory of what?
mircea_popescu: so basically living in a bathroom
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: jail
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: mas apartmentos y condos
asciilifeform: except in jail they feed you and you (in most of usa) don't have to work
asciilifeform: so this is worse.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: that price floor is made of unobtainium and is going nowhere
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes everything inconvenient lasts in socialism.
asciilifeform: because if it caves in, the whole thing caves
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: portland goes through a boom-bust property cycle at about twice the frequency of the national market
asciilifeform: http://koin.com/2016/01/23/we-the-people-petition-white-house-to-arrest-bundy << linked from same rag. по просьбам трудящихся !111111 (tm) (r)
assbot: 'We the People' petition White House to arrest Bundy ... ( http://bit.ly/1PuuMqX )
ben_vulpes: pretty routine to see 20% property value declines top to bottom
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: so at what point in this supposed cycle can i walk in and buy a livable HOUSE for 20k?
asciilifeform: rounding error.
ben_vulpes: 2% is a rounding error, not 20.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes you have any idea what housing cost in the 80s ?
ben_vulpes: oh hilariously less
mircea_popescu: so yeah. 20% is a rounding error.
ben_vulpes: i'm not trying to argue against the property bezzle!
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: the fluctuations come nowhere near making an actual palpable difference to anybody, ever.
asciilifeform: (it isn't as if they were of any serious amplitude, or even fluctuated in any particular phase to salaries, interest rates, or other relevant number)
ben_vulpes: my parents bought their current residence in...94? for 230k, are now batting away offers for 900+. i relent on the rounding error.
mircea_popescu: buy in 1981 for 35k, sell in 1994 for 230k, buy in 1994 for 230k sell in 2006 for 1.2mn
mircea_popescu: inflation over 25 years is a neat 3500%
mircea_popescu: 15% a year or thereabouts.
asciilifeform: 'how the world works!111' (tm)
mircea_popescu: so you took out a year and six weeks, once. rounding error.
ben_vulpes: okay okay!
asciilifeform: from billboard on other side of my commute: 'new townhomes in low 600s !'
asciilifeform: ^ in godforsaken piece of shit street
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: is crack still going on in DC? or do the white people still live on the otherside of the ptomic
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: there are upscale white folk in dc now
mircea_popescu: and meanwhile, when i visited the us people generally tipped 10% and derps were derping about how it's really not enough and should be more like 15%. incidentally looked on reddit the other day, "Everyone agrees" it should be over 20%.
mircea_popescu: soon enough it'll just be "double the bill".
mats: nice
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: you sound like that d00d in pulp fiction who doesn't believe in tipping.
thestringpuller: Buscemi was it?
mircea_popescu: spare me, i don't believe in hiring your shitty workers on my dime. i'll take a slavegirl with, and she can wait on me. your inept "staff" can go hang, how abvout that ?
mircea_popescu: run a fucking business rather than a morroccan tourist trap and have some fucking self respect.
thestringpuller: p. much right?
thestringpuller: waiters are generally shitty at their job too, cause "I'll be an actress one day!"
thestringpuller: In US tho, they spit in your food when you insult them with low tips.
ben_vulpes: "no, honey, we're not going out. you cook better, plate better, and do it all in the nude. i am not paying for designer lights, too much salt, and shitty hipster wait staff drinking habits. plus you'll want to tip 20% for completely miserable service and i just got my shoes off."
thestringpuller: That's why in house chef's have become more popular than eating out.
thestringpuller: or at least in whites-ville suburbia where I live
mircea_popescu: i imagine a larger driver is that a) "restaurants" saw the "opportunity" to turn into caterers and "prepare" pre-prepared meals and b) nobody trusts their fucking acquisition process.
mircea_popescu: "you wanna cook for me, pick ingredients from over here" is the main driver, i expect.
thestringpuller: For me I just have my own menu and tell chef "fix X here is money to go buy groceries. Don't get the cheap stuff."
thestringpuller: I should learn to cook. But I'm an extremely fickle eater.
mircea_popescu: for the same deal you could just get a poor gf.
mircea_popescu: i suppose ~half the marriages in the world today happen about like that.
thestringpuller: She doesn't cook as well as my buddy who went to culinary school.
mircea_popescu: well, get a competent immigrant. ukr chicks cook well.
thestringpuller: aha. I really should just learn to _actually_ cook. But I don't even know what foods I like.
mircea_popescu: travel & find out.
thestringpuller: when I'm no longer a USian slave I do plan to find out ;)
thestringpuller: Eventually there'll be enough good porn links in the logs to have a !bait command
ben_vulpes: from:mircea_popescu media.tumblr.com
ben_vulpes: ain't hard
ben_vulpes: in other apple nyooz, 'el capitan' ships with a new program 'photos'
ben_vulpes: that starts up, shits 40gb of files to disk immediately while importing the classic 'iphoto' library, and has now been spinning on the import for 2 straight days now.
ben_vulpes: fuck these people.
ben_vulpes: ah it was punkman with the logs
fluffypony: with the candlestick?
deedbot-: [cascadian hacker] The measure of a state is its ability to deny benefits to outsiders - http://cascadianhacker.com/blog/2016/01/23_the-measure-of-a-state-is-its-ability-to-deny-benefits-to-outsiders.html
ben_vulpes: fluffypony: in the server room
ben_vulpes: huh shoulda fixed the date on that wotpost while i was at it
ben_vulpes: O WELL
assbot: Logged on 23-01-2016 19:47:00; ben_vulpes: that starts up, shits 40gb of files to disk immediately while importing the classic 'iphoto' library, and has now been spinning on the import for 2 straight days now.
asciilifeform: perhaps because i did not use the old sack'o'garbage ?
asciilifeform: nor the new ?
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i imagine you don't use iphoto
asciilifeform: wtf does it even do
ben_vulpes: open, see
asciilifeform: take photos with the cruddy webcam in the machine ?
ben_vulpes shakes head slowly
ben_vulpes: that'd be photo booth
ben_vulpes: oh ho ho
ben_vulpes: i discovered my photo booth archives from freshman year
ben_vulpes: oh the tits
asciilifeform: so tell me what makes this app necessary
ben_vulpes: gimp is not a thing on macos?
ben_vulpes: necessary is a stretch
ben_vulpes: iphoto i'm sure will eventually fall to quest of removing toilets from places they should not be
ben_vulpes: handy categorizer-of-photos-by-exif is probably the best justification for my continued use of it
ben_vulpes takes a lot of photos
ben_vulpes: has since...02?
ben_vulpes: would pull down the negative books from that era but they're in the family fire-proof safe
ben_vulpes: yes, i store the negatives, wtf with this printed photo nonsense.
ben_vulpes: on the flip side i do *not* store raw digital photos.
ben_vulpes: absurd waste of bits. photography is lossy, deal.
ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-01-2016#1382860 << recurring thread at $shop: encourage people to customize for personal ergonomics and efficiency or attempt to cultivate a standard environment for ease of collaboration on each other's devices?
assbot: Logged on 23-01-2016 17:49:32; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-01-2016#1382830 << not so. the first step of work is cleaning out the workspace. it is the work of truly inept management to impede on this "because it does not directly contribute to productivity"
ben_vulpes: probably unresolved because we're coolies working oars with illusions of being graham's "six smart hackers in a room"
ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-01-2016#1382890 << you are actually far more likely to lose a hand on the table saw your friend keeps in the garage that he doesn't know how to teach you to use than planing something flat on the master's shaper.
assbot: Logged on 23-01-2016 18:06:52; thestringpuller: "When you handle the master carpenter's tools, chances are that you'll cut your hand."
ben_vulpes: mostly because the shaper is a 5hp terror of cutter-face that'll make you think seven times before even beginning to cut, whereas your friend's table saw doesn't have the sawstop that your *other* idiot friend bought.
ben_vulpes: https://youtu.be/XVktVFyid-Y?t=150 << obligatory slo-mo sawstop
assbot: Finger into Sawstop at slow motion - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/20l7hsm )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 69200 @ 0.00055893 = 38.678 BTC [-] {3}
punkman: "SawStop has provoked opposition from the Power Tool Institute (PTI), which represents Black & Decker, Hilti, Hitachi Koki, Makita, Metabo, Bosch, Techtronic Industries and WMH Tool Group."
punkman: "In April 2008 they told Congress that SawStop's braking system is: dangerous because it requires the user to come in contact with the blade before activating; unproven, particularly in terms of durability; prone to false trips caused by commonly available wet and green wood; potentially vulnerable to latent damage that cannot be inspected and may cause a hazard; costly to the user because once
punkman: activated, saw blade and cartridge must be replaced; and significantly more expensive, ranging from a minimum of 25 percent and ranging upwards depending on saw type"
punkman: lulzy
punkman: "The PTI objects to the licensing necessary due to the "more than 50 patents" related to SawStop's braking system; such costs "would destroy the market for the cheapest, most popular saws, adding $100 or more to the price of consumer models that typically sell for less than $200." In response, their members developed "new plastic guards to shield table saw users from the dangers of a spinning
punkman: blade". PTI says "its member companies have received no reports of injuries on [the 750,000] table saws with the new guard design.""
ben_vulpes: punkman: they're fighting him because he kicked their ass on the licensing front
ben_vulpes: and the plastic guard is a joke, comes off at the first opportunity.
punkman: I bet it is
punkman: but can you really trust a carpenter with all 10 fingers?
shinohai: I think I saw this. Said guard does destroy the blade in the process.
mats: i learned today that the 82nd recently retrofitted their M4s to full auto
ben_vulpes: shinohai: i'd rather lose a blade than a finger.
ben_vulpes: in any event i'm long out of that line of work, and for good reason.
asciilifeform: !s sawstop
assbot: 0 results for 'sawstop' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=sawstop
asciilifeform: short story, the shits tried to make their PATENTED thing MANDATORY
asciilifeform: and when the whole industry, predictably, tried to push back, 'oh noez they WANT your fingers chopped!1111'
asciilifeform: mats: was there ever a real rationale for the 3-round burst thing at all ?
ben_vulpes: mandatory? oh do cite plz
mats: asciilifeform: suppressive fire
assbot: Logged on 23-01-2016 14:31:04; mircea_popescu: well yes. 39 is the old ak/sks russian thing. nato has a bigger one.
mats: what a massive waste of money for a) retrofit b) encouraging people to rambo
asciilifeform: mats: suppressive fire would be an argument for ordinary full auto, nein ?
ben_vulpes: that's hilarious
ben_vulpes: hey totally valid business strategy under gosplan--get yer shit mandated for use
punkman: ah now it makes more sense
mats: asciilifeform: well, yeah. burst is pretty good in close quarters
mats: the round itself is pretty light and you can control the grouping with practice
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: http://toolmonger.com/2012/09/14/more-sawstop-bs << randomly picked summary
assbot: More SawStop BS | Toolmonger ... ( http://bit.ly/20la0lz )
ben_vulpes: meanwhile found it
asciilifeform: mats: i was asking about the 3-round limit
asciilifeform: i found it a puzzling thing, esp. given as nato world uses professional soldiers rather than orcish conscripts, the latter presumably cannot be trained to let go of the trigger
punkman: what's with the pharma spam in that article
asciilifeform: punkman: never seen a blog gone to seed before ?
mats: most people i've run into have been trained to exclusively use semi auto
asciilifeform: how do you lay suppressive fire with semi ? ww1 volley style ?
mats: and some high speed units that have MOUT missions will teach burst in cqb
mats: and traditionally folks are taught that suppressive fire is for the SAW gunner
assbot: Logged on 23-01-2016 17:52:11; mircea_popescu: re BingoBoingo 's https://voat.co/v/fatpeoplehate/comments/808993/4006420 << check out the ugly head of puritanism rearing its head yet again. "if i don't enjoy anything in the world i will surely be spared doom!!1". nothing's quite as resilient as idiocy.
BingoBoingo: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-01-2016#1382941 << I have no recollection of what it was that flipped that paranoia switches when he was PM'ing me drunk, sober reading the logs unrevealing, but I am now very glad that breaker flipped.
assbot: Logged on 23-01-2016 18:26:38; ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu may have his reasons for being so friendly and welcoming but bearing a deep suspicion of new faces in #b-a has saved me untold heartbreak (and no doubt riches, if i were to listen to robert viragh's ilk)
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: reading the log i posted as his rating was not enough ?
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Not Robert V, The ragnar dude
BingoBoingo: The one who came with various promises of toil so can eat while hodl
BingoBoingo: At least it is one less ammends to make when step 9 comes around
assbot: Logged on 23-01-2016 18:12:25; mircea_popescu: anyway, my idea was originalyl that it's a collaborative tool par excellence. girls better support each other's back, lest they fall in.
assbot: Firearms gang's glamorous assistant who posed in provocative selfie with AK-47 jailed for 10 years - Mirror Online ... ( http://bit.ly/1ZUP3RN )
ben_vulpes: dafuq is a deactivated weapon
BingoBoingo: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-01-2016#1383023 << Here horse is most privileged. Permitted on sidewalk, bike lanes, and road proper. Only limit on their popularity is pooper scooper laws.
assbot: Logged on 23-01-2016 18:37:54; asciilifeform: horse is not permitted here except when used by police
BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: "deactivated" typically means barrel filled with lead and various parts molested to place it substantially far from being a weapon capable of operation. Reactivating mean replacing parts.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: museum weapon
BingoBoingo: Also that.
BingoBoingo: For a while many of the fine mail order retailers of 'Murica actually marketed many of these museum weapons in their pages. Most have moved on from that though.
assbot: JL: Neanderthal Idiots in Harm City ... ( http://bit.ly/1SbGa0d )
assbot: Articles: Sympathy for the Devil... But None for White Victims of Violence ... ( http://bit.ly/1SbGmwp )
BingoBoingo: "When one boy snarled she should go back to India, she told him that under his argument he should go back to Africa. That cost her a disciplinary inquiry for 'racism'. She was also hauled in for suspected 'racism' when she used the technical term "negate" in her class -- and a black girl took it as an epithet and brought her hell-raising mother to school to confront her in the principal's office. "
BingoBoingo: ;;ticker --market all
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 390.36, vol: 7889.73415043 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 393.0, vol: 5116.00628 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 389.79, vol: 25994.71324663 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 352.0, vol: 8.10773217 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 392.84704, vol: 78857.98570000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 390.8, vol: 372.47406101 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 399.40716801, vol: 19.80240217 | Volume-weighted last average: (1 more message)
BingoBoingo: ;;more
gribble: 392.007608699
BingoBoingo: ;;bc,stats
gribble: Current Blocks: 394695 | Current Difficulty: 1.1335429980147113E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 395135 | Next Difficulty In: 440 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 days, 12 hours, 41 minutes, and 22 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
assbot: Logged on 08-01-2016 00:12:37; asciilifeform: and even not considering this absurdity, you would have same problem as vasectomy patient (the sperm gets reabsorbed and your immune system begins to generate antibodies against it. with bonus measurable extra risk of alzheimer's)
asciilifeform entirely snowed in, finally
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: you will have to unearth the thing yourself
mats: stuck at work, asciilifeform ?
asciilifeform: mats: nah
mats: fortunate
thestringpuller: ben_vulpes: see PM
ben_vulpes: for someone reason vasalgel is being pushed as an alternative to risug
ben_vulpes: ty thestringpuller
mats: i feel bad for the pizza guy that has to drive here in 45 mins
assbot: Oberlin's president refuses to negotiate with student list of demands ... ( http://bit.ly/20lgReM )
BingoBoingo: "The 14-page list of demands at Oberlin was detailed and contained many controversial items. Among other things, it demanded the immediate firing of some Oberlin employees, the immediate tenuring of some faculty members, specific curricular changes, a review and possible revision of the grading system (to be overseen by students), the creation of "safe spaces" for black students in at least three buildings on campus, the creation
BingoBoingo: of a program to enroll recently released prisoners from a nearby prison as undergraduates, divestment from Israel, and a requirement that black student leaders be paid $8.20 an hour for their organizing efforts."
assbot: Logged on 23-01-2016 19:47:00; ben_vulpes: that starts up, shits 40gb of files to disk immediately while importing the classic 'iphoto' library, and has now been spinning on the import for 2 straight days now.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo lol whence the spunk ? blackdemandsmatter!
mircea_popescu: oh wait, Marvin Krislov. almost russian!
BingoBoingo: Nah, Oberlin jack off
BingoBoingo: It's Oberlin though so they've been enabling this shit for decades
assbot: The Next Twenty-five Years ... ( http://bit.ly/20lhk0D )
asciilifeform: one wonders, why not 'the next twenty-five thousand years'
mircea_popescu: because "progress".
asciilifeform: ogress.
mircea_popescu: well yeah. any sort of longer stretch is either inacceptably unprogressive or outright ridiculous.
mircea_popescu: consider : "so we'll have 3500% inflation over the next 25 years." "wait, that coems to ONLY 15% a year ? TOO SMALL!!1"
ben_vulpes: oho i'm going to have a blast with those demands later
mircea_popescu: sure baby. now do 150% a year for 25`000 years.
asciilifeform just finished transplanting the switch under 'printscreen' to under spacebar
asciilifeform: so nice to have industrial soldering iron at last, heats up in maybe 5sec
mircea_popescu: "wait, that coems to ONLY 15% a year ? TOO SMALL!!1" <<< meant to be "only 150%", cuz nigga can't exponentiate, divides instead.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes so you starting your own "drunken mousy middle chalss chick at college" tumblr ?
ben_vulpes: waiwut?
BingoBoingo: Further ButtFurry lulz, Want to boost block size, but... https://archive.is/MI5UM
assbot: Cryptolution comments on "Consensus Round Table" meeting in Miami going on now ... ( http://bit.ly/1PdShc5 )
mircea_popescu: i dunno, jus going through logs.
BingoBoingo: "This meeting has reached a maximum of 50 participants. Please try again later."
ben_vulpes: in reference to?
assbot: Logged on 23-01-2016 20:06:49; ben_vulpes: i discovered my photo booth archives from freshman year
assbot: Logged on 23-01-2016 19:31:10; ben_vulpes: from:mircea_popescu media.tumblr.com
ben_vulpes: nah, just giving the botmakers lurking a tip on how to automate the baitprocurement
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-01-2016#1383219 <<< i wouldn't buy a thing with "SawStop (tm)" and i certainly don't want to HAVE to.
assbot: Logged on 23-01-2016 20:35:44; ben_vulpes: punkman: they're fighting him because he kicked their ass on the licensing front
asciilifeform: it is worse than that mercedes that brakes by itself.
mircea_popescu: quite. no rule everyone must run a saw.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-01-2016#1383224 << and this to me just reads "we gave up on learning any aim".
assbot: Logged on 23-01-2016 20:39:46; mats: i learned today that the 82nd recently retrofitted their M4s to full auto
mircea_popescu: oddly related to the saw thing.
ben_vulpes admittedly has difficulty pulling head out of workplace safety mindset
assbot: Logged on 23-01-2016 20:44:26; asciilifeform: mats: was there ever a real rationale for the 3-round burst thing at all ?
asciilifeform: actually it suggests usg confidence that it will ~never~ suffer shortages of ammo
asciilifeform: even localized
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes workplace safety != this just like domestic faithfulness != chastity belts.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform can't fucking aim that bs.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: wut?
mats: its a change that does make rifle teams more flexible
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: full auto is for suppressive fire, just needs to go in the general direction of the enemy, nein ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but ONLY full auto means you can't do most of the things you actually want to do.
mircea_popescu: you want suppressive fire get a fucking platform.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: m16 was never 'only'
mircea_popescu: what the fuck are you going to do with a pos hot rifle that only fires full auto in the remains of a town ?
mats: although the effect is psychological and may not work against a trained enemy
mircea_popescu: shoot yourself and be done with the misery, i guess.
asciilifeform: it was traditionally select b/w single and auto
mircea_popescu: from what i understood it went full auto ?
mircea_popescu: or do i misunderstand ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: they removed the 3-round burst thing that was put in instead of auto in the '90s
mircea_popescu: mats and "trained" in this context merely means experienced.
asciilifeform: it had a clockwork gadget that fired 3s
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform like every civilised everyone everwhere. aim the first.
mircea_popescu: by the time the 3rd went off, your barrel is so far up high it no longer matters.
mircea_popescu: save on the heat.
asciilifeform: bbbut what if spinnin' round & round, 'fooor piglet'
asciilifeform: !s for piglet
assbot: 5 results for 'for piglet' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=for+piglet
ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-01-2016#1379720 << surprisingly close read of the logs by...whom now?
assbot: Logged on 21-01-2016 15:24:17; thestringpuller: LOL >> "Don't forget Mr Popescu, who loves to harp on about how Bitcoin is not for the unwashed masses, just two weeks ago had a hugely embarrassing fiasco where he revealed he hadn't the faintest idea how Bitcoin transactions work.
mats: i personally like burst
mats: but the complexity it adds, usually isn't worth it
ben_vulpes: what, but the complexity of stack randomization /is/?!
mats: i don't make the rules, man
assbot: [MPEX] [S.NSA] 120000 @ 0.000087 = 10.44 BTC [-]
asciilifeform: l0l l00ks like jurov found a buyer
ben_vulpes: am i missing an order of magnitude here?
ben_vulpes: holy shit snsa listed in 2013
assbot: [MPEX] [S.NSA] 260000 @ 0.000085 = 22.1 BTC [-]
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: iirc you were there
ben_vulpes: at the bell even
jurov: actually, 85 :(
asciilifeform: if i had an account, i'd buy it off him !
mats: i bought those
jurov: may they serve you well
mats: did you take a loss selling those
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 226316 @ 0.0005557 = 125.7638 BTC [-] {5}
jurov: mats, guess what was the ipo price?
mats: 9980?
jurov: close, but nope.
jurov: 2013-10-17 08:16 Buy xxxxx@0.0001
mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> bbbut what if spinnin' round & round, 'fooor piglet' << i imagine you're exactly on the mark. cartoon army, designing weapons for cartoon usage.
mats: ic
mircea_popescu: <ben_vulpes> holy shit snsa listed in 2013 <<< well yes, was gonna be xmas remember!
jurov: <asciilifeform> if i had an account, i'd buy it off him ! << iirc the person that holds your coins, does have an account? just ash zer to place teh order.
jurov: *ask
asciilifeform: jurov: i think this would violate his monastic oath or at least give him indigestion
jurov: imo you gave him some indigestions already
jurov: s/gave/caused/
BingoBoingo: Indigestions are an imprecise thing that over time increases risks of things like Barret's oesophagus
BingoBoingo: Hard to tell exactly when too many indigestions happen
mircea_popescu: who are you two talking about ?
mircea_popescu: "NervousNorbert [score hidden] 4 hours ago Consensus on increasing the maximum participant limit was not reached." << ahahaha top keks.
mircea_popescu: "The gang's downfall came when Aaron Shane Murphy and Uzair Patel, both 29, were stopped by police in a taxi in Newham in June 2015."
mircea_popescu: orly, check that out, airstrip one got taxi stopping policies nao ?
mircea_popescu: "I recently moved to the Pacific Northwest from Baltimore. What partly impelled the move was being beaten up by a black guy who I had grappled with and held down after he was chasing his girlfriend with a baseball bat. His GF and another woman went nuts, beating me as he and I grappled on the ground with me holding the bat with both arms. To shut them up, I stupidly rolled the bat away and let him get up. He promptly d
mircea_popescu: ecked me, kicked the hell out of my head (concussion and bleeding). I was very lucky. "
mircea_popescu: "These yuppie “blockbuster” musicians, who think they can save those who hate them and put their women and children in danger to assuage their own misplaced feminist guilt and world-saving bitch complex, should be staked out, skinned, have their eyelids pinned back, and left for the crows."
mircea_popescu: or, alternatively, they could be just left to do what they do, which is both cheaper and conceptually cleaner.
mircea_popescu: me: 'the measure of a state's sovereignty and quality of life therein is the degree to which it can deny benefits to outsiders' << certainly works to "why is B,TMSR~ superior to USG and necessarily a replacement thereof".
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes nevertheless, bear in mind that there is a catastrophic difference between "derp needing" and "dude trying to contribute".
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 66432 @ 0.00056091 = 37.2624 BTC [+] {3}
hanbot: <mircea_popescu> me: 'the measure of a state's sovereignty and quality of life therein is the degree to which it can deny benefits to outsiders' << certainly works to "why is B,TMSR~ superior to USG and necessarily a replacement thereof". << to borrow a recent parallel from copypaste, couldn't the same be said of best korea?
mircea_popescu: sure. on the scale of sovereignity north korea is doing pretty well, too bad they're stupid.
hanbot: admittedly i was looking moar at the "quality of life" bit
mircea_popescu: ie, much easier to "deny benefits to outsiders" when nobody wants the benefits you offer.
hanbot: mhm
mircea_popescu: well, "my son, we're bums but you'll inherit all of it" sorta degree. no loss in quality of life there.
phf: so only thing i did with timestamps in logs is add milliseconds to the log printer (to add necessary precisions to graphs). i'm pretty sure i discovered that blockchain height served as well in my case (produced similar shapes with none of the "laptop went to sleep" noise), but i was looking specifically at the number of block send/recv retries
mircea_popescu: is this in a patch ?
phf: milliseconds are
hanbot: i wonder how often that's more tolerable than eg cazalla's worse-off-than-grandpa plight.
phf: but the patch got lost, between punkman taking over logging improvements and the v-ification
mircea_popescu: hanbot should be universal. if i find any thing worse than in the time of the predecessors i'm bringing out the machine guns and fire throwers as a matter of principle. and i want the skies bathed in the screams of the innocent and the blood of gutted babes, also as a matter of principle.
mircea_popescu: phf what sorry state of sin is this!
phf: i can bring it forward, it wasn't included in the v release, nor did anybody ask about it, so i assumed it's not needed
phf: fwiw openbsd didn't make it through v-ification either, it was designed to work cross platform, but i believe there were makefile modifications since, that didn't include it. i don't actively run openbsd, so can't integration test the result
danielpbarron: >> me: the universe does not guarantee a solution to things that humans perceive as problems. << personification of 'universe' to replace God
BingoBoingo: lol that third paragraph of disclaimers
assbot: Lesson learned from the Classic coup attempt or why Core needs to prepare a GPU only PoW — Medium ... ( http://bit.ly/1ZJOJ2X )
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: dude, yes. transient, no.
ben_vulpes: mod6: i do believe that i understand now.
ben_vulpes: 'tis a very surgical strike, if i'm reading correctly. only if the flag is set and the sig does not bear the correct order is order enforced.
ben_vulpes: i'd have probably done something ham-handed and just set the order for the given flag, which would be a bigger change to life-fire use than i think would be warranted.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5600 @ 0.00055547 = 3.1106 BTC [-]
ben_vulpes: danielpbarron: i swear that i'm referencing something mircea_popescu said with that line, but i'll be damned if i can find the original.
mod6: phf: your patch(s) did work for me on openbsd. i think, once we have all of trinque's makefiles ready to go with the new (forthcoming) version of V, you and I should work together to get a new vpatch of your openbsd changes submitted.
mod6: The hang up here is that, it basically can't be mirrored in the same place as the rest of the patches; simply because when one sync's up against a mirror your changes will break the rest of the tree.
mod6: so either, we need a separate repository for openbsd patches (not a bad idea), or we should just put the new openbsd vpatch in the mailing list for those who need it -- let them just add it to their V 'patches' directoriy by hand
mod6: *directory
mod6: make sense?
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> mod6: i do believe that i understand now. << cool!
ben_vulpes: fwiw i completely failed to get the openbsd patch to work.
ben_vulpes: but i probably hosed something on that machine way before ever making it to building tri.
mod6: yeah, i think i need to walk you through the exact steps. i did get it to build, and fully sync a chain even. was very happy about that.
shinohai: mod6: i am fully synced nau ^^
mod6: having an alternate to linux is important to me. and i was able to build a static binary, but obviously this doesn't work with the rotor (linux only buildroot). i did build it with the stator.
mod6: anyway, getting a buildable openbsd is a priority of mine. there are just bigger things in front of that for the moment.
mod6: <+shinohai> mod6: i am fully synced nau ^^ << ^6
mod6: does that bring us to 8 nodes now
mod6: ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20300 @ 0.00055547 = 11.276 BTC [-]
shinohai: and ~ 90% complete to pogo backup of blockchain
mod6: you're just using it as a storage bin for the time being?
shinohai: yeah for now.
shinohai: i just have it cat the latest blkxxx.dat over once every 12 hours.
mod6: ah aight
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 89850 @ 0.000562 = 50.4957 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24400 @ 0.00056201 = 13.713 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43890 @ 0.00056201 = 24.6666 BTC [+]
deedbot-: [cascadian hacker] Money, Trust, and the Wild Wild Web (A socioeconomic history of that SSL, or that green lock symbol in your browser) - http://cascadianhacker.com/blog/2016/01/23_money-trust-and-the-wild-wild-web-a-socioeconomic-history-of-that-ssl-or-that-green-lock-symbol-in-your-browser.html
ben_vulpes: a no fuck that lol
shinohai: wash BingoBoingo 's fat pics from your eyes: https://i.imgur.com/zLnxfUb.jpg
ben_vulpes: oh those are hardly even worth mentioning
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 136800 @ 0.00055615 = 76.0813 BTC [-] {3}
BingoBoingo: Seriously been a while since I posted a really bad one
BingoBoingo: !up bagels7
BingoBoingo: !Up raedah
ben_vulpes: man i fucking hate my webshit.
deedbot-: [cascadian hacker] Money, Trust, and the Wild Wild Web (A socioeconomic history of SSL, or that green lock symbol in your browser) - http://cascadianhacker.com/blog/2016/01/23_money-trust-and-the-wild-wild-web-a-socioeconomic-history-of-ssl-or-that-green-lock-symbol-in-your-browser.html
BingoBoingo: https://archive.is/rg8nJ << Did Ragnar move on?
assbot: Be a part of the thriving underground economy with a darknet job! : SeaJobs ... ( http://bit.ly/1K3Vtqk )
adlai: ;;nethash
gribble: 946829249.036
adlai: cmon chinese chicken!
adlai: ;;google youtube rhcp chinese chicken
gribble: Chinese - YouTube: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQvLS17wpr0>; Chinese Chicken Song - YouTube: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unW7UYXSQNY>; How to cook Chicken and Mango Stri-fry recipe - YouTube: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNiyMCq_KtI>
adlai fails, twice in a row. too fuck to drunk? !down
adlai: ;;later tell mike_c candle charts outta sync, comment moderation constipation?
gribble: The operation succeeded.
adlai: anybody know the guy? the site is *almost* functional in absentia, but not quite enough
ben_vulpes: "We DEMAND the inclusion of teachers and educators with auditory and relative business skills pertaining to contemporary Black musical styles." << relative business skills? what are those
ben_vulpes: also looks like the storied Oberlin conservatory is about to turn into Rap Kollege
adlai: fwiw friend who teaches classics at a usg 'prep school' attests to having had a student excused from any and all performance standards due to APD (which stands for 'auditory processing disorder')
adlai: tis the new AD[h]D
ben_vulpes: "We DEMAND an online database that outlines the deadlines, dates, and forms critical for the successful academic journey of Black students" because we can't be arsed to figure it out ourselves, read syllabi when they're handed out or at all, and because of course knowing to do all of the above is something we were not prepared for in life and this must be rectified at the expense of everyone else attending the school.
ben_vulpes: lol required events
ben_vulpes: who goes to required freshmen events?
ben_vulpes: woo hoo hoo fifteen
adlai: fifteen whats?
ben_vulpes: "We DEMAND a change in the fundamental ways that we asses knowledge at this institution, starting with a student evaluation of the effectiveness of the grading system. We will have oversight over the results of that evaluation. If the results state that the grading system is not reflective of this institution's student body, we DEMAND an immediate change of that grading system."
ben_vulpes: grades are racist!
deedbot-: accepted: 1
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8608 @ 0.0005603 = 4.8231 BTC [+] {2}
ben_vulpes: "We DEMAND the renaming of these specific academic buildings"
ben_vulpes: "We DEMAND that a mandatory professional development program be developed for faculty across departments in the College & Conservatory that will help facilitate their udnerstanding of the ways in which racial capitalism, settler colonialism, and other forms of violent oppression inform and shape instructional methods for the disciplinary content of their courses. We further DEMAND that the content of this information be integrated in
ben_vulpes: their coursework."
ben_vulpes: "We DEMAND a 6% annual increase in grant offers vs. loan offers for Black Students"
assbot: Logged on 22-01-2016 16:56:17; PeterL: does trb debug.log grow infinitely?
assbot: Satoshi 0.5.3.1/src/util.cpp ... ( http://bit.ly/1PuTHee )
ben_vulpes: !s compression
assbot: 42 results for 'compression' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=compression
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: you laugh, but THAT was how we got xyz-studies in the '70s usa
ben_vulpes: i'm not laughing i'm horrified
ben_vulpes: i thought there'd be about another 5 years before things got this nutso
BingoBoingo: And seriously Oberlin historically has been a trailblazer in surrendering to such demands
ben_vulpes: tenure for an artist in residence, nice
ben_vulpes: "We DEMAND that Black student leaders be provided a[n] $8.20/hr stipend for their continuous organizing efforts around the well[-]being of Black people on Oberlin's campus, city and beyond" << man that is some low-dough shit
ben_vulpes: why not 15? 20?
asciilifeform: or why not demand bottomless bank account ?
ben_vulpes: that /is/ the demand.
asciilifeform: i remember reading as a kid, about some south american dictator who gave his phriendz such a thing, and being horrified
ben_vulpes: "We DEMAND that each worker, temporary or permanent working for the College Dining Hall Services be given a meal every work shift"
asciilifeform: worker? work?
asciilifeform: what kind of crackpot revolutionaries are these
asciilifeform: who still speak of.. work
ben_vulpes: "We DEMAND that the workload given to employees be reflective of their abilities...should not be given a workload that they cannot handle."
ben_vulpes: "all employees be given healthcarea and insurance"
ben_vulpes: DEMAND immediate firing of: ... Gerri Johnson...for their rude behavior towards Black Students
ben_vulpes: "We DEMAND that Oberlin College stop functioning as a gentrifying institution"
ben_vulpes: "the immediate implementation of a free bussing system"
ben_vulpes: ah jeez
ben_vulpes: okay, phew.
ben_vulpes: too goddamn funny.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 79900 @ 0.00056034 = 44.7712 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 50200 @ 0.00055513 = 27.8675 BTC [-] {3}
polarbeard: fatsideboob
funkenstein_: ben_vulpes thanks for lulz of the day :)
mircea_popescu: you mean the girl is fat ?
polarbeard: no, only her side boob
assbot: Logged on 24-01-2016 00:41:21; mod6: The hang up here is that, it basically can't be mirrored in the same place as the rest of the patches; simply because when one sync's up against a mirror your changes will break the rest of the tree.
mircea_popescu: we can't be the first people doing a multi-platform release.
asciilifeform: but we ~might~ be the first people who won't tolerate pestilential #ifdefs OR duplicate trees for it
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so what do we do ?
mircea_popescu: ;;nethash
gribble: 949473454.023
asciilifeform: openbsd won't run linux elf, like netbsd ?
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo ?
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Only i386 will.
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=24-01-2016#1383446 << wait, explain this to me ? << the idea is that our makefiles, or whatever build scripts will utilize V to build inside of the rotor (a linux thing) - the source must be compatable with that. phf's openbsd scripts are not compatible with this.
assbot: Logged on 24-01-2016 00:41:21; mod6: The hang up here is that, it basically can't be mirrored in the same place as the rest of the patches; simply because when one sync's up against a mirror your changes will break the rest of the tree.
asciilifeform: everything i've so far experienced with openbsd suggests that
asciilifeform: it is retarded
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=24-01-2016#1383495 << rap "industree" is dead in the water so all the wanna-be succeeders at "the game" want federal dollars to prop up their delusion.
assbot: Logged on 24-01-2016 01:49:23; ben_vulpes: "We DEMAND the inclusion of teachers and educators with auditory and relative business skills pertaining to contemporary Black musical styles." << relative business skills? what are those
asciilifeform: and that it is only quasi-works for a few very specific use cases
asciilifeform: perhaps it was once a thing, i cannot say
mod6: however, if he and I work together, we could possibly get some patches in place that would check to see what the local environment is and if __BSD__, then apply, otherwise, do not.
asciilifeform: pretty much every single 'openbsdism' i've so far run into screams braindamage
mircea_popescu: mod6 so basically we can't use our convenient makefiles to build the pressed source ; openbsd people gotta finagle their own build chain to get the same source to compile and link ?
asciilifeform: (~different~ braindamage than in linux, and this is appealing to some people)
mod6: yes.
mircea_popescu: well yeah, seems this will have to be separately maintained.
asciilifeform: just like the nintendo port.
mircea_popescu: i suspect it'd be a horrid mistake to try and merge the notion of a press and the notion of a makefile.
mod6: and further, the changes that we wanted to make with V (where we mechanically check to see the patch was applied correctly by checking the hashes) also will not work on bsd unless a bunch more alterations are made, but this is a side issue.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: correct, they are entirely different processes with just enough superficially in common to lead n00bz to conceptual perdition
assbot: The Sad State of Web Development — Medium ... ( http://bit.ly/1nGEkJi )
mircea_popescu: mod6 how can that possibly happen ?!
mod6: this is because BSD's sha/md commands spit out the digests in different way than on linux.
ben_vulpes: yeah, i ran into this.
ben_vulpes: needs -q flags.
mircea_popescu: so basically, this should prolly be on the wiki or what.
mod6: linux:
mod6: # sha256sum blah.txt
mod6: 827aa4d3ea7c8b7177abe0e2d1d87f45857755df32956fbc54e7a1c10981e6b4 blah.txt
mod6: bsd
mod6: sha256 blah.txt
mod6: SHA256 (blah.txt) = 827aa4d3ea7c8b7177abe0e2d1d87f45857755df32956fbc54e7a1c10981e6b4
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> (~different~ braindamage than in linux, and this is appealing to some people) << This is pretty much its appeal to me. I have modest needs as far as necessary hardware and necessary software go.
mod6: so a minor annoyance there. but alas.
adlai notes that the three laws are phrased as guidelines for builders, rather than code for execution
BingoBoingo: Also Openbsd base system is complete enough to make internet on mars
adlai: ... wrong chanl (or maybe not?)
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> mod6 so basically we can't use our convenient makefiles to build the pressed source ; openbsd people gotta finagle their own build chain to get the same source to compile and link ? << and further more, they'll never have the same build process like we want.
mod6: because they can not use buildroot... at least, I don't *think* they can, easily at lesat. they could turn on Linux Binary Comapt mode and perhaps some other kernel tweeks. would need to be looked a.t.
mircea_popescu: mod6 thinking about this, the problem slowly becomes that not only does bitcoin gravitate towards bitcoinos, but it puts some serious problems to any attempt at wide support.
mod6: for sure. our best bet, is bitcoinos.
assbot: VR porn is here. Does virtual sex really feel real? ... ( http://bit.ly/1PuVgJ4 )
assbot: You need an Ambien to sleep because you bought the trappings of power instead of the real thing. | Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski ... ( http://bit.ly/1PuVgJ8 )
assbot: 404 Not Found ... ( http://bit.ly/1PuVhws )
mircea_popescu: the problem with that is that well... nobody'd want to bash in bitcoinos. so we'll end up with a very strange catamaran of a stack.
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski do you mind ?
adlai: pete_dushenski: more helpful to say where you encountered the deadlink :)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i am actually dealing with precisely this as we speak
danielpbarron: pete_dushenski, follow assbot's bitly link
asciilifeform: dusted off draft of something i had a while back, because mircea_popescu mentioned it and proclaimed that it isn't wholly retarded
mircea_popescu: which was this ?
asciilifeform: tinyscheme welded onto trb
asciilifeform: draft name on my disk was.. shiva
mircea_popescu: ah, right.
mircea_popescu: anyway, for the first time so far it occurs to me we might be setting ourselves up for failure here. because of this support / os issue.
asciilifeform: it will be a ~shell~
asciilifeform: in trb.
pete_dushenski: my apologies for the linkspam interruption
asciilifeform: only switched on, with command line flag, if you are really ready to meet allah;
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform logically : a) you won't want to ssh into the node and do your bash there (providing it even has ssh). this means you'll be stuck using something else on top of bitcoin-os.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this is elementarily not so
mircea_popescu: obviously, as a general thing, people MIGHT consider running a bitcoin node on any box they run.
mircea_popescu: but if bitcoin can not be run there... well...
asciilifeform: the bare metal variant will expose shiva shell through one of the serial ports
asciilifeform: which can be attached to whatever you like, e.g., a unix box running sshd
asciilifeform: sort of what folks do with routers and factory robots today
mircea_popescu: so then the model here is to have fundamentally speaking a pogo/arm-ish level bitcoind/os, that doesn't really natively build on anything without a laundry list of finicking ?
asciilifeform: builds ~on~ whatever the fuck you like
asciilifeform: rotor does this already
mircea_popescu: i mean software-on not hardware-on
asciilifeform: software-on.
asciilifeform: rotor will build on nintendo.
mircea_popescu: then what is the bsd problem ?
asciilifeform: building ~for~
asciilifeform: iirc nobody succeeded in building ~for~ it ?
mircea_popescu: so you bring up your *bsd box, run rotor on it, does it build or doesn't it.
asciilifeform: or hm, looks like userland caltrops prevent even v from running there
mircea_popescu: right. so no, rotor doesn't "do this already".
asciilifeform: to which i say that it is braindamaged to expect the thing to build on arbitrary crud os
asciilifeform: what, i also do a winblows toolchain now ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so if someone has a box that they're using, they can't run a bitcoin node there unless they run it under bitcoinos ?
asciilifeform: build the linux variant ?
asciilifeform: understand, if someone ~wants~ to maintain a nintendo port, let'em
mircea_popescu: "bitcoinos" is a symbol here. may mean linux, whatever the fuck it means.
asciilifeform: but 'runs for everybody on every kind of dead animal in a box' is a dead end goal
mircea_popescu: and so what, we're officially targetting "anything that's unix post bsd pre systemd" ?
asciilifeform: i dare say that expecting a vaguely linuxlike ~build environment~ is not unreasonable
mircea_popescu: and so then bsd support, like windows or crapple support, would be a bolt-on ?
asciilifeform: if somebody wants to maintain a parallel universe 'v' et al where the bsd flags make it go, i will take off my hat to them.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform well apparently phf was half-trying but no hats.
mircea_popescu: phf you seriously considering maintaining a bsd rotor thing ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 61500 @ 0.00056137 = 34.5243 BTC [+] {3}
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo srsly why are you putting your uni library in the deedbot.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: So that I don't have to link fiat uni web sites.
BingoBoingo: If reddit is to be denied links so ought they.
BingoBoingo: In case the documents get "Oberlin'd"
adlai notes that a) archive.is works for backup b) deedbot provides verification alone c) the blockchain works for paranoid-max backup, if you pay your way
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo yeah the part where your otherwise reasonable idea breaks down is where deedbot is not really a webservice
mircea_popescu: even if currently available on web endpoint as well.
BingoBoingo: Well, librarybot is still 18-36 months out.
mircea_popescu: anyway. i suppose this entire compatibility general issue will need more thinking about.
adlai is currently working on blockchain-databot or whatever's a better name
mod6: yeah, very much so. a good conversation to have though, as our future roadmap depends on some early-on food for thought.
adlai: SaaS (spam, spam, blockchain, spam)
mircea_popescu: mod6 to my mind it's almost as if we bit a recursion girder over here. "v presses source". "ok how do i build it ?" "uh... i guess you need a v-make genesis and follow that for your os." "ok... how do i do that ?" "well... get v-make-make and..."
mod6: i guess my thought is, if we wanna make bitcoinos - we will end up forking either SVR4 or BSD, and then getting married.
adlai: the general goals being - get the data in there, as cheaply as possible, without same standards as http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1490 and some reasonable method to random-access without having to reconstruct the entire turd
assbot: Loper OS » Practical Blockchain Telegraphy. ... ( http://bit.ly/1LY30Hl )
adlai: s/out// blah
mod6: so we may think of a different way of doing something like this, maybe it's not a full OS of sorts, maybe its a embedded deal.
asciilifeform: adlai: why not also suggest placing it on mars ?
asciilifeform: cheaper.
mircea_popescu: mod6 here's the problem with "Bitcoinos" : you will want it adapted for bitcoin needs, which necessarily means it won't be your tool of choice for doing almost anything else, which necessarily means maintaining it will be a pain in the ass.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: trying to wiggle out from under this is misguided imho.
asciilifeform: it is a logical necessity.
mircea_popescu: im not making any calls here, just running the horse around the field.
adlai: asciilifeform: because large amounts of data are worth paying small amounts of btc to immortalize, today; and small amounts of data will always be worth paying large amounts of btc to immortalize - even tomorrow.
asciilifeform: just like missile guidance needs a particular kind of os
asciilifeform: that you won't play tetris on
asciilifeform: or even compile itself on.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 86600 @ 0.000562 = 48.6692 BTC [+] {2}
adlai also got an upfront btc donation to do this so ~shrug~
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but this faces you with the unpleasant choice of whether to not play tetris or not run bitcoin on your homebox.
asciilifeform: i already have this choice with many other things
mircea_popescu: see, that';s thje bitch here : missile guidance has to be on missile and there only. there's no benefit from it running on jane's computor.
asciilifeform: e.g., i have a set of boxes for running winblowz virii on.
asciilifeform: that are not fit for any other purpose
mircea_popescu: nevertheless.
asciilifeform: and many folks keep similar winblowz box for games, etc
adlai: mircea_popescu: ever heard of 4th gen ATMs? (not the kind that gets skimmed)
mircea_popescu: there's no space in the future for windows.
mircea_popescu: so i'm not terribly interested in that line of thought.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: mentioned on account of separate-box
asciilifeform: there is no space in the future for commodore 64, and yet i have one
asciilifeform: that was not the point.
mircea_popescu: but i'm discussing YOUR HOME BOX. not some rando box you run.
asciilifeform: from where comes this perverse scenario of 'one box'
asciilifeform: serious toilet-kitchen separation problem
mircea_popescu: do you have a system you work on ?
asciilifeform: folks who 'one box' HAVE NO BUSINESS with bitcoin
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i have several.
mircea_popescu: so you want to not be able to run bitcoin on them ?
asciilifeform: perfectly happy to run it in vm on them, if it comes to it
asciilifeform: (if we give it own os, with custom fs, etc)
asciilifeform: the way i presently run msdos.
assbot: Logged on 22-01-2016 00:00:44; BingoBoingo: So next year will be 3 months to sync, 2018 4 months, 2019 5 months etc.
mircea_popescu: wouldn't it be a shitton cheaper to not need a vm layer if at all avoidable ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: not if it gangrenes the code with #ifdefs.
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> mod6 here's the problem with "Bitcoinos" : you will want it adapted for bitcoin needs, which necessarily means it won't be your tool of choice for doing almost anything else, which necessarily means maintaining it will be a pain in the ass. << agree. I think that what I'm getting at is maybe it ends up being like cisco ios.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform is ifdefs REALLY the only way to do this ?
polarbeard: bitcoinos would be based on what? I think that's the interesting part
asciilifeform: the actual speed penalty of vmization is perhaps 10%
mod6: its a thing, it gets flashed on to some firmware, and it basically just is, you can talk to it and use it, but it is its own thing.
mircea_popescu: mod6 this i called the "pogo" approach to it.
mircea_popescu: polarbeard that's an even sadder story.
mod6: right. exactly similar to this.
polarbeard: unikernel?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: bsd is retarded from the linux pov (or, if you're a bsd aficionado, vice-versa)
mod6: yah yah, watch it ;)
asciilifeform: polarbeard: based on trb.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yeah i guess most of the problem comes from that chasm. we're not the first to meet it.
polarbeard: how do you talk with the cpu, memory, network, disk?
mircea_popescu: polarbeard most of those will have to be written de novo, basically. esp the filesystem.
asciilifeform: polarbeard: you open a book and read ? start with, e.g., tannenbaum ?
mircea_popescu: (or from a security perspective, esp the cpu and memory)
asciilifeform: polarbeard: or go to school, if you're the sort of person who goes in for that
polarbeard: lol, ok, gl
asciilifeform: (i happen to have done both)
mircea_popescu: so basically my tentative takeaway here is that we'll mostly try to maintain broad linux-compatibility and try and help interested parties keep the wheels oiled and turning on stuff like bsd.
mod6: yeah, for now. seems the most viable approach.
mircea_popescu: but riddle me this : how does user know his openbsd make process isn't satan's own ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 94029 @ 0.00056321 = 52.9581 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: Logged on 24-01-2016 02:36:26; asciilifeform: tinyscheme welded onto trb
assbot: Logged on 23-01-2016 18:15:49; mircea_popescu: dude speaking of "provability" bs. FSB are "provably secure" because it can be proven they're at least as hard as regular syndrome decoding. which is np complete. while we don't actually know if THAT is in fact resolvable in polynomial time or not, nevertheless... PROVEDLY SECURE!!11
asciilifeform: how does linux user know ?
mircea_popescu: "v is provably secure. now go build it!"
mod6: this is perhaps were a seperate branch of V for bsd only comes in. or maybe i misunderstand.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: thread concerned an experiment
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: that i am carrying out presently
ben_vulpes: how does tinyscheme couple into ri source?
asciilifeform: with hands.
mircea_popescu: mod6 in the end we'll need a v thread for the source, one for the manual, one for linux make one for bsd make etc ? like 4 ?
ben_vulpes: this is a wonder i would greatly like to see myself
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i got it to compile ages ago, the tricky bit is to add useful tendrils into it
asciilifeform: so you can meaningfully probe the living trb
ben_vulpes: this'd be hooks into running bitcoind memory space and such?
mod6: mircea_popescu: excellent point.
asciilifeform: it runs in own thread, you telnet into it
ben_vulpes mind boggles
asciilifeform: very barbaric
ben_vulpes: the shit these reversers can do
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so you added tinyscheme to have sexpr rather than json, and now you telnet into scheme ?
asciilifeform: i'm not even 100% convinced that it isn't braindamaged yet, must be seen
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it's my motherfucking tx debugger
asciilifeform: dont like it, write me a new one, aha
mircea_popescu: lol i'ma cook you some toilet soup in a moment!
mod6: haha
mircea_popescu: understand mod6 : the thing that scared me above isnm't per se the fact that now we need 4, but that well... it grew. might be we're sitting on some unbounded complexity / a loose recursion tail.
mircea_popescu: next week, 12 ? 255 ?
mod6: sure, the whole: 1, 2, inf. problem.
mircea_popescu: so this has to be pondered upon.
asciilifeform: sorta why i say it has to converge.
asciilifeform: incl. hardware.
asciilifeform: as in, canonical ~physical object~
asciilifeform: bits included.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform nothing converges if the path to convergence is expensive.
asciilifeform: aha, didn't say it has any danger of happening.
asciilifeform: but that 'has to'
asciilifeform: to work as intended.
mircea_popescu: are you an engineer or a priest today ?
asciilifeform is probably both, at least in re: professional life
mircea_popescu: check it out, he no longer cleaves things :D
asciilifeform: i promise to say if i ever manage to cleave these.
assbot: Models with Unbounded Complexity - Church Wiki ... ( http://bit.ly/1PuWZhm )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu's been playing with Church lang ?!
mod6: asciilifeform: so are we basically, with rotor, able to not only build a static bitcoind, but couldn't we also build a flashable rom that contains said static binary - a flashable universe so to speak?
mircea_popescu: no. i deny all such allegations at this time.
asciilifeform: mod6: this was my original objective with pogo
mod6: right.
mircea_popescu: mod6 that's what started all this
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 68850 @ 0.00055508 = 38.2173 BTC [-] {3}
mod6: yah, i still think this might be a resonable path. but lot of thought still must go into this whole thing. tonight was a great discussion on it tho.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: lulzy link, it very closely resembles an undergrad homework of mine
mod6: does anyone else think that this is *not* a decent consideration at least? even taking into consideration the issues we ran into with pogo?
mircea_popescu: what do you mean ?
mod6: eh, sorry: does the idea of a flashable universe built from rotor still make sense.
mircea_popescu: definitely.
mod6: i think it could be pretty neat, in the end.
mod6: you buy a flash rom (from S.NSA? or from local place you trust??) then get V, build a flashable universe, flash the card, drop it into some device and then you can talk to it over some wire from your work station
mircea_popescu: http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/util.cpp#0771 << this doesn't actually work, i've seen gb+ debug.logs
assbot: Satoshi 0.5.3.1/src/util.cpp ... ( http://bit.ly/1PuTHee )
asciilifeform: mod6: the principal obstacle is the lack of a computer.
mod6: (im just spitballing here)
asciilifeform: we don't have a computer.
polarbeard: mircea_popescu: good because I'm removing it
mircea_popescu: it really doesn't belong anywhere.
mircea_popescu: if (file && GetFilesize(file) > 10 * 1000000)
mircea_popescu: can't even figure out a magic number, needs 2.
polarbeard: do we agree in using an external tool for this?
mircea_popescu: polarbeard do you understand how v and wot works ?\
polarbeard: I guess I do, but please follow
mod6: <+asciilifeform> we don't have a computer. << well, this goes back to the same thing. currently we're married to some linux varient to do (future) building of flashable universe
mircea_popescu: to put it in you'll have to sign it. if it turns out later to have a hole, people will negrate you.
mircea_popescu: so read it eight times.
asciilifeform: polarbeard: where i come from we have a proverb, 'the sapper errs - once.'
assbot: The sad state of Bitcoin code on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1PuXsjC )
polarbeard: I'm building better logging in two steps, first I lay out better and prefixed messages, people can review that
mircea_popescu: polarbeard you'll still have to sign it. there's no way out of this.
polarbeard: sure, no problem with that
mircea_popescu: so as they say, don't sign anything you might regret.
mircea_popescu: fwiw i have a lot more faith in code someone read than in code someone wrote.
polarbeard: oh well, my soul has already an owner
mircea_popescu: the former implies the latter.
polarbeard: returning to the retarded-rotator, will somebody miss it?
polarbeard: it supposedly overwrites the log and (how considerate) leaves you a few lines from the old one
mod6: not if someone builds something that works, and does not break anything.
polarbeard: well, I use logrotate, but I'm a linux-lowlife
mircea_popescu: incidentally, if something like char pch[200000]; is inside an if, what does the compiler usually do ? allocate it at program start or not ?
polarbeard: inside a func? has to be called
mircea_popescu: and so if it can\t find 200k contiguos this actually fucking crashes ?
mod6: it should ask the os for 200k of mem, this should be allocated in pages (usually 4k ea. iirc) it may not be contiguos
mircea_popescu: ah it doesn't want to get the whole byte ?
mircea_popescu: i thought it did.
mod6: no it shouldnt crash unless there is no more ram left available in the entire computer.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38850 @ 0.00056432 = 21.9238 BTC [+] {3}
mod6: i could be wrong here.
mod6: asciilifeform: ?
mircea_popescu: "// "Never go to sea with two chronometers; take one or three." Our three time sources are: System clock ; Median of other nodes's clocks ; The user (asking the user to fix the system clock if the first two disagree)"
mircea_popescu: the more one reads, the less one likes.
mircea_popescu: seriously, MEDIAN ? seriously, this is three ? fuck me.
mircea_popescu: "never go to sea with two clocks. take one or three. so we're taking two but one has a special button to press to ask it if it's really sure. if it is it squaks audibly."
mircea_popescu: "at least most of the time".
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=24-01-2016#1383521 << collapse is an exponential not a linear process.
assbot: Logged on 24-01-2016 02:05:25; ben_vulpes: i thought there'd be about another 5 years before things got this nutso
polarbeard: lol, I'm following the rabbit hole and it seems pszSetDataDir is not set if -datadir not given
polarbeard: therefore never shittyrotating
polarbeard: mircea_popescu: do you use -datadir?
mircea_popescu: which is why nobody uses datadir, because wtf you do with munged 200kb logfiles.
mod6: i do:
mod6: # du -sh /mnt/btc-dev/.bitcoin/debug.log
mod6: 12G /mnt/btc-dev/.bitcoin/debug.log
polarbeard: you use datadir but give the default dir?
mircea_popescu: oh it doesn't work anyway ?
mod6: no, i use /mnt/btc-dev/.bitcoin since mine is in an attached volume.
mod6: not ~/.bitcoin
polarbeard: allright, then shittyRotate() is there to give hope
mircea_popescu: maybe it only works on windows 95.
polarbeard: surely was introduced for it, windows users see logs as a feature
mod6: which btw for testers is kinda nice -- you can make a really large volume and attach to which ever instance at will and keep your OS small, or swap it out easily without ever having to clobber your build/sandbox area
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23550 @ 0.00056453 = 13.2947 BTC [+]
mod6: <+asciilifeform> mod6: the principal obstacle is the lack of a computer. << oh you're saying a target arch here? or?
assbot: Satoshi 0.5.3.1/src/bitcoinrpc.cpp ... ( http://bit.ly/1RGn4R7 )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 74209 @ 0.00056453 = 41.8932 BTC [+]
assbot: Logged on 24-01-2016 03:26:58; mircea_popescu: incidentally, if something like char pch[200000]; is inside an if, what does the compiler usually do ? allocate it at program start or not ?
asciilifeform: the answer depends on whether it is a global declaration or inside a function
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=24-01-2016#1383837 << if it were inside a function, the ~stack~ must contain that many contiguous free bts
assbot: Logged on 24-01-2016 03:28:26; mircea_popescu: and so if it can\t find 200k contiguos this actually fucking crashes ?
asciilifeform: or overflows.
asciilifeform: if ~global~, the process data segment will be stretched to fit, and if os does not like this, process will get oomkilled on load
mod6: the only place i can find that is in util.cpp:ShrinkDebugFile()
polarbeard: that's the one
mod6: char pch[200000];
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=24-01-2016#1383848 << 1st time i saw this, i misread, 'two cocks'
assbot: Logged on 24-01-2016 03:31:44; mircea_popescu: "never go to sea with two clocks. take one or three. so we're taking two but one has a special button to press to ask it if it's really sure. if it is it squaks audibly."
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=24-01-2016#1383869 << we don't have a computer that you can buy that makes this concept have a point
assbot: Logged on 24-01-2016 03:45:09; mod6: <+asciilifeform> mod6: the principal obstacle is the lack of a computer. << oh you're saying a target arch here? or?
asciilifeform: (the os in flash thing)
mod6: <+asciilifeform> http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=24-01-2016#1383837 << if it were inside a function, the ~stack~ must contain that many contiguous free bts << i guess this makes sense. i dunno why i was thinking that it might not be.
assbot: Logged on 24-01-2016 03:28:26; mircea_popescu: and so if it can\t find 200k contiguos this actually fucking crashes ?
mod6: i gotta read up on paging again i guess.
assbot: Function prologue - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/1PuYThX )
asciilifeform: ^ basic mechanics
assbot: Stack frame layout on x86-64 - Eli Bendersky's website ... ( http://bit.ly/1PuYTP4 )
asciilifeform: ^ for n00bz
mod6: <+asciilifeform> mod6: see also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Function_prologue << yup, know about this from asm stuff i've done.
assbot: Function prologue - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/1PuYThX )
mod6: thanks for the links tho
asciilifeform: so then you know what it means to allocate on the stack.
mod6: ya, i think i was just confusing some kern shit that i'd read.
mod6: memory allocation is done by the os at runtime. when you ask for some bytes, there are kern mechinisms that handle this request, are there not?
asciilifeform: ;;google sbrk
gribble: sbrk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sbrk>; sbrk(2): change data segment size - Linux man page: <http://linux.die.net/man/2/sbrk>; brk - The Open Group: <http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/7908799/xsh/brk.html>
mod6 pulls out the book
asciilifeform: and hah, looks like mircea_popescu said 'inside an if'
asciilifeform: so this means in function, on the stack.
mod6: ya
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43700 @ 0.000557 = 24.3409 BTC [-] {2}
mod6: maybe i was just remembering this: "Most machine architectures provide a contiguous virutal address space for processes. Some machine architectures, however, choose to partition visibly a process's virtual address space into regious termed segments [intel, 1984].
mod6: Such segments usually must be phyiscally contiguous in main memory and must begin at fixed addresses. We shall be concenred with only those systems that do not visibly segment their virtual address space."
mod6: *shrug*
mod6: This is from: Design & Implementation of the FreeBSD Operating System by McKusick
mod6: anyway, yah, its not like it called malloc or whatever, its on the stack. i am retard.
BingoBoingo: ;;ticker --market all --currency rmb
gribble: BTCChina BTCRMB last: 2582.0, vol: 67307.60100000 | Volume-weighted last average: 2582.0
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33007 @ 0.00055871 = 18.4413 BTC [+] {2}
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