Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2015-08-21 | 2015-08-23 → ↓
mircea_popescu is tempted to deed a list of key,values of names of various people and start referring to people as "Primitive Man AFMrikO2o3Ka2pcpZ" instead of "Obama" or "Jean Jacques Rousseau" or whatever.
mircea_popescu: because it's where it's headed anyway, and why the fuck wait.
asciilifeform: straight from pelevin's 'orcs'
mircea_popescu: it is what it is.
asciilifeform: (were issued serial #s, tatooed on)
asciilifeform: orcs can grunt to one another whatever names they like, but only men get unique name
asciilifeform: orcs only need to be distinguishable from one another quickly & reliably.
mircea_popescu: name's a courtesy anyway.
asciilifeform learned, perhaps to his grief, on account of phf (shame on you!) that 'ozon' now takes shitpal. now bought a container of fresh b00kz, aha.
asciilifeform will soon learn what, if anything, ru academiderpers did re: crypto in '90s, among other things.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what i don't grasp is why you're feeling so generous - giving orcs unique names.
asciilifeform: what next, serialize the ants in the anthill ?
asciilifeform: let the rousseaus bite one another's ears off, fighting over who is rousseau.
asciilifeform: (also serial #s tend to work poorly unless reliably tattooed on.)
asciilifeform: see also the 'rating folks not in wot?' and 'branding a snake' thread
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41389 @ 0.00064734 = 26.7928 BTC [-] {5}
mircea_popescu: cuz i might want to be able to distinguish orwell from orlov
mircea_popescu: not that experience to date indicates this as likely.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10000 @ 0.00064515 = 6.4515 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: "The reappearance of HELEN'S BABIES, in its day one of the most popular books in the world–within the British Empire alone it was pirated by twenty different publishing firms, the author receiving a total profit of £40 from a sale of some hundreds of thousands or millions of copies–will ring a bell in any literate person over thirty-five."
mircea_popescu: da fuck is this, never heard of it.
mircea_popescu: probably some inane brit-pulp a la dickens.
mircea_popescu: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/4281/4281-h/4281-h.htm turns out it's from the us, an early attempt at mommy blogging.
assbot: Error 403 ... ( http://bit.ly/1KbIu4b )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20600 @ 0.00065643 = 13.5225 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19500 @ 0.00068335 = 13.3253 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: you know, they speak casually of how the bitches they know're gonna introduce the new ones. except... all this is a work of feverish imagination.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45600 @ 0.00068754 = 31.3518 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9846 @ 0.00066909 = 6.5879 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1157679.0 << and, of course, credit given where credit is due.
assbot: [Guide] Surviving the fork, or How to double your bitcoins (or save fiat) ... ( http://bit.ly/1UZiOLr )
assbot: Adopting iOS 9 network extension points · Issue #124 · shadowsocks/shadowsocks-iOS · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1UZjYGE )
mircea_popescu: is that trolling ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43300 @ 0.00066816 = 28.9313 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 86108 @ 0.00064807 = 55.804 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27850 @ 0.00067939 = 18.921 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: "A totalitarian society which succeeded in perpetuating itself would probably set up a schizophrenic system of thought, in which the laws of common sense held good in everyday life and in certain exact sciences, but could be disregarded by the politician, the historian, and the sociologist."
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31600 @ 0.00065793 = 20.7906 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41200 @ 0.00067953 = 27.9966 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21013 @ 0.000658 = 13.8266 BTC [-]
punkman: mircea_popescu: is that trolling ? << chinese problems
punkman: shadowsocks makes your tunnels look like traffic that's not blocked
assbot: Weird Satanist Guy - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1JAC6ol )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 82640 @ 0.00066914 = 55.2977 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43594 @ 0.000691 = 30.1235 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 52628 @ 0.00069123 = 36.3781 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: Fisherman nets a spy device in S China Sea- China.org.cn ... ( http://bit.ly/1PrtuP3 )
shinohai: I hope that somewhere in the AM data, it is revealed Josh Duggar snorted coke off of a tranny's cock.
assbot: Prepare for the Playa Police [Update] | Burners.Me: Me, Burners and The Man ... ( http://bit.ly/1PrtJtw )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 62700 @ 0.00069586 = 43.6304 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: ;;later tell schmidty fix your connection.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
assbot: U.S. soldier wounded helping to overpower gunman on train in France - SWI swissinfo.ch ... ( http://bit.ly/1Eb9Ruc )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21000 @ 0.00070115 = 14.7242 BTC [+]
assbot: Dont Talk to Police - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1Eb9W1b )
assbot: Sprout Pharmaceuticals CEO Talks 'Female Viagra' Controversy, Additional Alcohol Studies, Addyi's U.S. Roll-Out And Global Ambitions ... ( http://bit.ly/1Eba5By )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16605 @ 0.00070554 = 11.7155 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: sprout pharmaceuticals is a new altcoin or what.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 66099 @ 0.00002287 = 1.5117 BTC [-] {11}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21950 @ 0.00070064 = 15.379 BTC [-] {2}
shinohai: * I want a blockchain!* *Us too!*
assbot: Scientists who found gluten sensitivity evidence have now shown it doesn't exist - ScienceAlert ... ( http://bit.ly/1TZjgvZ )
mircea_popescu: all us tinfoil hats with our crazy notions about how shit that doesn't exist doesn't exist.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile how did that quote go, i really liked that thing, with social biddings and shit
assbot: Logged on 21-08-2015 23:21:00; mircea_popescu: "Welcome, kiddo, to how the real world works. You go ahead and place your crazy protest bids way off in the bottom of the sociological order book and scream that someday, SOMEDAY, the market will come down to meet you, and you will be vindicated.
assbot: Logged on 21-08-2015 23:21:00; mircea_popescu: The rest of us who actually make shit happen in the front lines of consensus back on planet earth will continue to be unaffected by your efforts apart from their modest value as chuckle fuel over beers and sushi."
mircea_popescu: very happen much front lines actual earth &c.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20000 @ 0.00069891 = 13.9782 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 48600 @ 0.00069891 = 33.967 BTC [-]
assbot: Ashley Madison Hackers Speak Out: 'Nobody Was Watching' | Motherboard ... ( http://bit.ly/1TZk43T )
punkman: "1/3 of pictures are dick pictures and we won't dump."
mircea_popescu is not reading a vice regurgitation of anything. got the actual link ?
punkman: it's original
mircea_popescu: then their mother can read it & care.
mircea_popescu: if it's "original" to vice it's a lie by vice.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15450 @ 0.00067398 = 10.413 BTC [-]
punkman: "Motherboard was given a contact email address for The Impact Team by an intermediary. After reaching out, the hackers replied with a message signed with the same PGP key posted with the Ashley Madison dumps. " << of course they couldn't provide the signed replies
mircea_popescu: either they stole someone's shit, in which case i want the original ; or else they made it up, in which case i dun want to hear it.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35500 @ 0.00067023 = 23.7932 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34574 @ 0.00070623 = 24.4172 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: ThePiachu comments on Because most people are idiots, in spite of never manning up and admitting to it ... ( http://bit.ly/1TZkSpq )
shinohai: ^ LOLZ
cazalla: anyone else read his name as thepikachu?
mircea_popescu: that's the subreddit mod neh ?
cazalla: i believe so
cazalla: next to theymos anyway
shinohai: yes he is mod of r/cryptocurrency too?
shinohai: phd or something important hur durr
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9149 @ 0.00067023 = 6.1319 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: anyway, turns out trilema's linked from tons of various reddits in all sorts of topics, from recovering tlp old posts he apparently deleted to whatever random other thing.
mircea_popescu: s just they don't amount to much traffic wise, even when piled together, which is how i've never noticed before.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14189 @ 0.00070831 = 10.0502 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 42650 @ 0.00071281 = 30.4013 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 56982 @ 0.00066857 = 38.0965 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: Bitcoin Exchange, Trading BTC USD, BTC EUR - CEX.IO ... ( http://bit.ly/1NsfNSy )
shinohai: wrong window
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29633 @ 0.00065761 = 19.487 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2767 @ 0.00065406 = 1.8098 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21300 @ 0.00065406 = 13.9315 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44000 @ 0.00065713 = 28.9137 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12735 @ 0.0006774 = 8.6267 BTC [+]
assbot: Art Law on Authenticating Works by Old Masters--artnet News ... ( http://bit.ly/1Jns5Vk )
assbot: How a Chinese librarian made $6 million in forged art over two years | National Post ... ( http://bit.ly/1MEGQZh )
punkman: "before he resigned from the library he realized that his trick had occurred to someone else. Several of the paintings he made had been replaced, his copies stolen. So the Academy was exhibiting fakes of fakes and someone was selling, or trying to sell, art by Xiao."
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14116 @ 0.00071014 = 10.0243 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25066 @ 0.0007159 = 17.9447 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21774 @ 0.00070074 = 15.2579 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9629 @ 0.00070074 = 6.7474 BTC [-]
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-08-2015#1248244 << ahahaha this is ~very~ easy. does the thing contain any material signed with the original leak's pgp key? no? then straight to /dev/null !!
assbot: Logged on 22-08-2015 09:49:19; mircea_popescu: either they stole someone's shit, in which case i want the original ; or else they made it up, in which case i dun want to hear it.
asciilifeform: if the folks allegedly interviewed want to me to read this shit, they can sign it.
asciilifeform: (mircea_popescu's bag of tricks is ultra-handy for items like this. specifically, in re: the ancient art of not wasting time with spurious crud)
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-08-2015#1248273 << in my eyes, a ~skilled~ art forger is a hero second only to a hypothetical fella who puts an actual bullet through a bilderberger. why, exactly, should i have any sympathy for the folks hitching a ride in the only 100% effective inflation shelter known, at the expense of literally everybody else ?
asciilifeform: there is no buterin's waterfall for rembrandts and vermeers
asciilifeform: no usg confiscates them, to keep the price from rocketing to alpha centauri. the 'art market' not only destroyed fine art as a going concern, but is one of the giant turtles on which the elephants stand
asciilifeform: propping up the 'world order' or however one calls it.
kakobrekla: !s incorporation certificate
assbot: 0 results for 'incorporation certificate' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=incorporation+certificate
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-08-2015#1248271 << compare this crock of shit to the algo for authenticating a bitcoin !
asciilifeform: (ask how they destroyed fine art? not by 'hiding it in vaults', no. by elevating steaming piles of shit like jackson pollack's splashes, on account of them being supposedly 'authenticable' in his bucket swirling patterns, to 'fine art')
mats: asciilifeform has seen the movie 'American Hustle'?
mats: is about art forgery.
assbot: American Hustle Reviews - Metacritic ... ( http://bit.ly/1LqGPJz )
fluffypony: it's excellent
fluffypony: very watchable, great casting
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12000 @ 0.00069837 = 8.3804 BTC [-]
fluffypony: so 6 hours till North Korea says they'll retaliate
fluffypony: oh wait, I meant 6 hours ago
fluffypony can't brain
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 69627 @ 0.00069837 = 48.6254 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 116000 @ 0.00069837 = 81.0109 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 131804 @ 0.00069903 = 92.135 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10350 @ 0.00070151 = 7.2606 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27000 @ 0.00070504 = 19.0361 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19050 @ 0.00069572 = 13.2535 BTC [-] {2}
trinque: asciilifeform: I've produced a genesis.vpatch with your instructions which is only different from yours in terms of timestamps. expected result?
trinque: I recall discussion of removing the timestamps, but didn't find a conclusion there
asciilifeform: i posted a new vdiff.sh
trinque looks again
asciilifeform: mod6 used it to produce the latest genesis.
trinque: there found it
asciilifeform: diff -uNr $1 $2 | awk 'm = /^(---|\+\+\+)/{s="sha512sum \"" $2 "\" 2>/dev/null " | getline x; if (s) { split(x, a, " "); o = a[1]; } else {o = "false";} print $1 " " $2 " " o} !m { print $0 }'
trinque: result of patch -p1 < genesis.vpatch is a tree which matches the manifest.
trinque: very cool
trinque: diff with your genesis.vpatch is now of course the timestamps
trinque: and nothing else
asciilifeform: the original manifest used sha256
asciilifeform: so won't match in the bitwise sense
trinque: wat
asciilifeform: but if you were to switch the hash in vdiff to 256, then will match.
asciilifeform: ah in that sense, no shit, matches
asciilifeform: they're the same files!
trinque: lol, no shit indeed
trinque: I thought this was the exercise
trinque: the thing's damned cool
asciilifeform: earlier there were problems with different folks getting different (bitwise) genesis.vpatch - which i traced down to 'locale' retardation in gnudiff
asciilifeform: which left the timestamps. then experimented with abolishing timestamps in diffs entirely. this works
asciilifeform: with caveat that gnupatch will no longer keep you from applying the same patch twice.
trinque: yeah, I made the LC_ALL=C change
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [BTR] 2500 @ 0.000755 = 1.8875 BTC [+]
asciilifeform: trinque: i did the genesis.vpatch thing solely to simplify 'v' build system, which i was working on; such that there is no longer any shenanigans with tarballs, copying of crud, etc
asciilifeform: everything that anyone is to be signing is a vpatch.
asciilifeform: is the idea.
asciilifeform: this makes it possible to mechanically trace a 'patchchain'
asciilifeform: say, one can ask for 'asciilifeform's longest chain.'
trinque: yep, that seems perfect, and I don't know how it could be simpler.
asciilifeform: i am also considering a knob whereby one can sign a manifest
asciilifeform: this is a 'release'.
trinque nods
asciilifeform: 'v' will recursively walk the hashes in the release and apply the necessary vpatches to produce the tree.
asciilifeform: trinque: see that your genesis.vpatch is bitwise-identical to mod6's.
asciilifeform: then sign and post your sig.
trinque: sure will
asciilifeform: jurov's current script, unfortunately makes it necessary to post the payload (genesis) with the sig, in order for the message to come through.
trinque: and indeed it's identical
asciilifeform: but theoretically it is now possible to submit sigs for the same thing, and they will match.
asciilifeform: one potentially warty aspect of 'v' is that let's say ben_vulpes agrees with all of asciilifeform's longest-chain patches but one, somewhere in the middle.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27400 @ 0.00071869 = 19.6921 BTC [+] {2}
asciilifeform: the thing he ends up having to do is to create an antipatch for that one, and place it on the head of his longest chain.
asciilifeform: creating the antipatch is likely to require some manual manipulation.
trinque: seems the most honest representation of that
asciilifeform: this is my view.
asciilifeform: it avoids polluting the mechanism with special cases.
trinque: otherwise you get the insane operations possible in git
trinque: yep
asciilifeform: i am emphatically ~not~ recreating 'git' or the like.
asciilifeform: aficionados of 'functional programming' will recognize the 'v' data structure as so-called 'immutable'.
asciilifeform: to further work the example, the 'antipatch' is only necessary if ben_vulpes's chain builds on any of asciilifeform's patches which have the unwanted patch as antecedent.
asciilifeform: because if not, it is not necessary.
asciilifeform: if any aspect of the basic theory here is the least bit unclear to any of you, i want to hear about it asap.
trinque: that points out perfectly why "commit" is usually too big a wad of information
asciilifeform: the closest thing we have to a 'commit' here is the act of creating, signing, and distributing a vpatch.
asciilifeform: no vpatch, with the exception of 'genesis', should ever be longer than a few pages of text.
asciilifeform: it is important that everyone who works on therealbitcoin sign 'genesis' and distribute said signature.
asciilifeform: or 'v' will not eat descendant patches from said person.
asciilifeform: and, speaking of which,
assbot: [BTC-dev] V-genesis signed. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Jc4kAg )
asciilifeform: ;;later tell mircea_popescu ^
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: importantly, these need to be detached (own file) signatures. specifically ~not~ like this: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-August/000150.html
assbot: [BTC-dev] signed genesis.vpatch ... ( http://bit.ly/1J7B7Xg )
assbot: [BTC-dev] V-genesis signed, with comment ... ( http://bit.ly/1WLeXU1 )
asciilifeform: sig verifies.
asciilifeform: congrats trinque !
trinque: congrats to you sir
trinque finds some coffee
deedbot-: accepted: 1
asciilifeform: now the ideal thing would be to hook deedbot straight up to this.
asciilifeform: won't eat patches, no, but will eat sigs.
ben_vulpes: <asciilifeform> this is a 'release'. << ultra nifty
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i'm still not entirely convinced that particular knob is necessary
asciilifeform: a 'release' can simply be a deedbotted manifest.
ben_vulpes: the whole thing, man.
ben_vulpes: sinfully nifty.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 54700 @ 0.00069408 = 37.9662 BTC [-] {3}
danielpbarron: https://youtu.be/YGRgztz3Q6s?t=34s "What is my purpose?" << here's the kind of cartoon kids are growing up with nowadays, and it's not bad
assbot: Rick and Morty Something Ricked This Way Comes Episode 9 Season 1 - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1V0odBG )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 57891 @ 0.00071365 = 41.3139 BTC [+] {2}
fluffypony: Rick and Morty is great
fluffypony: also Bojack Horseman
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 50640 @ 0.00071817 = 36.3681 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13944 @ 0.00071914 = 10.0277 BTC [+]
mats: Fun fact: early ICBM computers had individually serial numbered resistors.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21950 @ 0.00070837 = 15.5487 BTC [-]
ben_vulpes: for those following the macos travails, cp does not have a --parents, instead has a -p
ben_vulpes: thanks steve
asciilifeform: ferfuckssake, is it really necessary to build on toy os ?
asciilifeform: is winblows next ?
assbot: Loper OS » Tungsten Will Melt in Your Mouth! ... ( http://bit.ly/1Ea7oQE )
fluffypony: ben_vulpes: why would that have anything to do with Steve Jobs?
kakobrekla: speaking on toy oses - i had a good build on deb8
fluffypony: it's crazy that *anyone* thinks standard command line tools in OS X have anything to do with Apple
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-08-2015#1248408 << my understanding is that individually-measured and selected components are still sop in Machines Which Must Work
assbot: Logged on 22-08-2015 17:25:55; mats: Fun fact: early ICBM computers had individually serial numbered resistors.
asciilifeform: less so today, in digital circuits, than in the old days of analogue amps in everything
fluffypony: oh look, the cp man in 1991 looks the same as it does on OS X today
fluffypony: surprise
asciilifeform: fluffypony: the 'fun' on mac begins when you diverge from traditional bsd utils and try using items like perl, python, or - satan forbid - attempt to work with init scripts or other customary denizens of /etc/
fluffypony: [ ric->~ ]$ perl --version
fluffypony: This is perl 5, version 18, subversion 2 (v5.18.2) built for darwin-thread-multi-2level
fluffypony: [ ric->~ ]$ python --version
fluffypony: Python 2.7.8
fluffypony: seems fairly innocuous, asciilifeform?
fluffypony: but I agree with you on it not using init
asciilifeform: fluffypony: now install a py package, say
mod6: asciilifeform: ok I regenerated all of the rel1 & rel2-pre patches with the new vdiff -- you want to review 'em?
asciilifeform: fluffypony: is the process ~exactly~ the same as on a gentoo box?
asciilifeform: if not, BROKEN
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24850 @ 0.00071914 = 17.8706 BTC [+]
fluffypony: asciilifeform: pip install <package name>
asciilifeform: mod6: diff with the old set, and see that nothing but timestamps is at variance
asciilifeform: mod6: if so, then safe to sign.
asciilifeform: (new set should have no timestamps.)
asciilifeform: mod6: also might want to try applying the patches, sequentially.
asciilifeform: mod6: they also need to be rebased (paths adjusted) so that they ~all~ apply from the root dir (where the patches live.)
asciilifeform: without descending into 'bitcoin'
asciilifeform: can either do this yourself, or wait several days until i get around to it.
mod6: <+asciilifeform> mod6: diff with the old set, and see that nothing but timestamps is at variance << can post this here in a bit for your review
mod6: <+asciilifeform> can either do this yourself, or wait several days until i get around to it. << i might get some more time to play around tonight. we'll see
asciilifeform: to be specific, all diff hunks should take the form seen in 'genesis', where '--- a/bitcoin/src/foo', '+++ b/bitcoin/src/foo'
asciilifeform: presently some of them are, e.g., '+++ b/src/foo' and this slipped past my eyes
asciilifeform: and is retarded
mod6: eek! in the signed one?
mod6 looks
asciilifeform: in the original 'orchestra'
asciilifeform: but also in all earlier patches
asciilifeform: there is inconsistency
asciilifeform: we resolved it before by doing shell gymnastics with the dir
asciilifeform: this is not acceptable in 'v'
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 98180 @ 0.00070808 = 69.5193 BTC [-] {2}
asciilifeform: (which i am trying to strip of all unnecessary 'intelligence')
mod6: <+asciilifeform> but also in all earlier patches << ah yea yeah, ok gotcha.
asciilifeform: gotta nail this down, once and for all.
mod6: yup gotcha
mod6: that way too im not doing the '-d' gymnastics
mod6: sounds good.
asciilifeform: re: earlier thread: a few hours of thinking led me to another potential boojum in 'v' : cyclic graphs
asciilifeform: i.e. if someone were to submit an antipatch which brings a file hash back to a previously-seen value.
asciilifeform: my present understanding is that the only solution to this is that i intend to negrate anyone who EVER does this.
asciilifeform: and encourage others to do the same.
asciilifeform: i ~really~ don't feel like stuffing a 'tortoise and hare algo' cycle-finder in that thing.
mod6: yeah, well, i agree, if somehow they end up restoring something back to its original sha512 something is wrong. or something needed to be rolled back for some reason.
asciilifeform: it would be easily 50x the complexity of the whole shebang put together.
asciilifeform: mod6: no, understand, such a patch being submitted will wedge the machine.
asciilifeform: (if sig verifies)
asciilifeform: if must undo a change, roll it back with an annotation. anything to get a ~novel~ sha512.
mod6: makes sense. this is a tree. and if we suddenly make the root a leaf, then screwed.
asciilifeform: just like rules of chess, incidentally
asciilifeform: cause a board position to be repeated ? nope
asciilifeform: it occurs to me that we can check for this mechanically
asciilifeform: without tortoise-and-hare algo
asciilifeform: like this:
asciilifeform: 'no +++ sha512 may ever equal a previously-seen-after-+++ sha512.'
asciilifeform: this is still not a 100% solution, because we have ~no means of ordering patches other than hashes~
asciilifeform: recall, there is no notion of time.
mod6: yeah.
asciilifeform: but it is a handy means of mechanically computing whom to negrate.
mod6: "in the beginning there was false..."
asciilifeform: 'if tree-walk wedges on account of your patch, blame yourself'
mod6: ok, here is the diffs between your posted patches w/timestamps v. new ones w/o ts: http://thebitcoin.foundation/misc/rel1-test-20150822.patch && http://thebitcoin.foundation/misc/rel2-pre-test-20150822.patch
asciilifeform: mod6: now try applying these in the known order.
asciilifeform: mod6: see, for example, if you can bitwise-reconstitute REL1.
mod6: yeah. you know... was just looking at these closer. i think i screwed something up
mod6: the hashes don't match.
asciilifeform: they have to match.
mod6: i did something wrong here.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform say, you keep sending me these carets, what are they supposed to do ? add to my collection ?
mod6: lemme blow these away
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: not sure what i was thinking there!
asciilifeform: add to a collection thereof, i suppose.
mircea_popescu: i got one from yest, too :)
mircea_popescu: mebbe they made a soup, who knows. ima ask teh girls.
asciilifeform: they go well with tea
asciilifeform: i was about to say.
mircea_popescu: irc, an ADVENTURE!~
mircea_popescu: incidentally, why the fuck is ^ called a caret. a caret is supposed to go below the line.
asciilifeform: it is a CARROT
asciilifeform: not a caret.
mircea_popescu: oh i guess they were using it historicaly for the line above huh
mircea_popescu: that weird feeling when you wake up at 4pm, everyone's gone to do useful stuffs and you have a pile of explanatory notes, aggregated foodstuffs and so forth.
mircea_popescu: i feel like a very old man.
mod6: ok i think i see what I did wrong here... just a minute.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-08-2015#1248274 << you know this is ~extremely~ common. maybe even half the fine art privately owned / displayed at any time is fake.
assbot: Logged on 22-08-2015 13:02:32; assbot: How a Chinese librarian made $6 million in forged art over two years | National Post ... ( http://bit.ly/1MEGQZh )
asciilifeform: not common enough! if there are still $40mil auctions for'em
mircea_popescu: that has nothin to do.
asciilifeform: let ten quintillion indistinguishable fakeassos bloom.
mircea_popescu: at the mental level where us adults are, $500 mn for soccer trading cards would not be amiss.
asciilifeform: only if they can be provenanced.
mircea_popescu: this is like "only if he can be voted into office"
mircea_popescu: he'll be voted, if that's what keeps millions from raining.
asciilifeform: nah, it doesn't work if someone can walk into a dark closet and emerge with two indistinguishable costly pet rocks.
asciilifeform: double-spend
mircea_popescu: this is like, "it doesn't work if i come back home and there's TWO almost dressed blondies waiting for me"
asciilifeform: if can doublespend, can run arse-mouth system hose, and now you're using 'blondies' as construction material and can't give'em away fast enough
asciilifeform: before you know it, they're boat ballast
mircea_popescu: ~= africa.
asciilifeform: but, if understand correctly, there is an alternate hypothesis: the costly and elaborate 'authentification' is not to authenticate, but to annoint
asciilifeform: rockefeller's vermeer is genuine and fuckyou because he is rockefeller; the one mr schmuck found in his cellar - will be annointed fake (or no one will even bother) unless it suits a rockefeller to bless it.
asciilifeform: (so he can pick it up for $1000 and magick it into $40m)
mircea_popescu: what part of doublethink you think got cancelled ? the man with two maja desnudas simply is twice as happy.
asciilifeform: i am enthusiastically in favour of elaborate art fraudsters if they can ddos this process.
mircea_popescu: this would be true if there existed a usg agency of authenticity.
asciilifeform: not twice as happy if he can't buy 2x the turkeys
mircea_popescu: speaking of goya, ever seen un coup fumant ?
asciilifeform: can't say i have
mircea_popescu: ancient film with toto. know him ?
mircea_popescu: italian comic of the war period.
mircea_popescu: anyway, pretty much your idea : a wanna-be rockefeller (except fraudster-y) hires an eccentric copyer to make an intermediate maja
mircea_popescu: (goya has a dressed maja and a nude one, they were goin to make "la maja en chemise")
asciilifeform: pretty sure someone linked to a modern rerun of this concept, earlier.
asciilifeform: (and i bet there are 25 films like this)
mircea_popescu: quite exactly.
mircea_popescu: fine art is either fine for its fine-ness or then not even art at all.
mircea_popescu: much like a good performance of a march does not get anulled through having been "not the original" and nobody sticks around to compare the brass instruments used
mircea_popescu: ("oh this march is from 1722 and then they put antimony in the brass. this march was a fake!)
asciilifeform: except that we have a handful of wealthy and demented folk who turned the whole shebang into a kind of primitive altcoin
mircea_popescu: which is how 99% of these "fake fine art" arguments are settled - no eggyolk in the pigment or shit
asciilifeform: well-known, i thought.
mircea_popescu: as fucking if.
asciilifeform: (hence the linked article where chinese fella used vintage paper, ink)
mircea_popescu: also, the thing is, it's perfectly legal to order and own, and trade etc COPIES
mircea_popescu: not like the things are under copyright anymore.
mircea_popescu: the only illegal part is fraud, obviously.
mircea_popescu: so it's kinda a forgone conclusion, art authenticity.
asciilifeform: but the pretence is maintained so rockefeller's stash can be inflationproof. and folks who try to fuck with the pretence, often Have Problems.
mircea_popescu would not feel particularly better for owning the "actual" copy of a painting he likes rather than a very good one. actually i'd feel like a total fool.
mircea_popescu: besides, the modern copy can be fix. i much prefer my own rewrites of classical poems to the originals anwyay.
mircea_popescu: and the historical master's taste in women shows they never met any for crying out loud.
asciilifeform: this is because mircea_popescu is still thinking of these items as artwork, to look at
mircea_popescu: i don't remember any classical nude i like the face of.
asciilifeform: lizards just keep'em in bottles of argon
mircea_popescu: but anyway, this suggests a fine exercise for the esteemed lordship and beyond. not everything in this life is code, and a gentleman needs to study and know a loit more than rubies. so therefore : which classical nude do you like the face of ?
mircea_popescu: but i don't mean copacetically like. i mean like like one's supposed to like art : un coup fumant. if she came off the toille you'd have no choice but to drop everything and marry her.
asciilifeform: how about botticelli's venus ?
mircea_popescu: i dunno, what you like is what you like. to me she seems dumb.
asciilifeform: but least so
mircea_popescu: much like maja has the face of a sly thirteen year old.
asciilifeform: of all the ones i can recall.
mircea_popescu: i do not wish to consort with preteens ffs.
mircea_popescu looks again
mircea_popescu: mneah. i dun like it, not my kinda woman.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'на вкус и на цвет товарища нет' (tm) (r)
asciilifeform: (how do you englisch that?)
mircea_popescu: anyway. people like alma-tadema, godward etc do women that look more like adults
mircea_popescu: "de gustibus" ?
asciilifeform: ^ approx.
mircea_popescu: color and taste aren't comrades ?
mircea_popescu: it literally sayz, za taste and za color, comrades not.
asciilifeform: again no.
mircea_popescu: wut are teh words mean!
asciilifeform: for colour or taste, ain't no such thing as friend
mircea_popescu: ooo yeah
mircea_popescu: >in< color and taste there aren't comrades
mircea_popescu: anyway, upon consideration venus does have to some degree the sharp features of the ideal fox. at least moreso than all the piefaces everyone wants to paint for some reason
mircea_popescu: great idea, great painting, why does the woman's face look like it was peeled off asphalt pizza
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24700 @ 0.00070309 = 17.3663 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: from punkman's article :
mircea_popescu: Authenticating a work of art is often difficult, and more difficult when the art is four or five hundred years old, and at least one tool for the expert, to wit, provenance, is often limited or non-existent. And, science (materials analysis) does not get us very far since many of the problems for Old Masters come right out of the artist's studio (think Rembrandt). Thus, for Old Masters at least, the expert is left to r
mircea_popescu: ely almost entirely on expert opinion concerning the quality of the art, that is to say, is the quality of the art being examined of the quality expected of a painting by the artist—in this case, Caravaggio.
mircea_popescu: And then, when the experts have come to their conclusion, and that conclusion is challenged in court, (as opposed to the marketplace or in critical writing), a judge must decide that the experts were right or wrong.
asciilifeform: 'in savour or hue, no comrades have you'
asciilifeform: ^ finally a working english.
mircea_popescu: rank fucking nonsense. it should be clearly obvious this is not something the court can do.
mircea_popescu: "oh, but we already do guilt and innocence, which are ALSO transcendents"
mircea_popescu: "yes, but you do those BY SPECIAL MANDATE!.
mircea_popescu: quo fucko warranto you do it for art, too!
asciilifeform: hence why i said 'they annoint under pretence of adjudicating'
asciilifeform: sop lizard service.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i have nfi why you think 'in savour or hue, no comrades have you' better than "in color or taste there's no comrades"
asciilifeform: because it checksums.
mircea_popescu: (it rhymes in russian because it's russian. a language from 1700! it needn't rhyme in english, unless we're going for faux-peasant wisdom)
mircea_popescu: !up referredbyqntra
mircea_popescu: incidentally, isn't this also strictly wrong ? wasn't it the case that the whole village ate ~the exact same dish~ every day forever ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34100 @ 0.00072009 = 24.5551 BTC [+] {3}
mircea_popescu: in romania it was polenta + cheese + onion cut up.
asciilifeform: ate because it was 'on the menu'
asciilifeform: not because 'we all love'
mircea_popescu: but it did make comraderie.
mircea_popescu: they did say so!
asciilifeform: aha. so does prison.
mircea_popescu: so then.
mircea_popescu: but no, it is oft seen as an ideal.
asciilifeform notice, did not sign it as 'ideal'
mircea_popescu: "no, i dont think they were townpeople [ie idiots] because when sitting to repast they took out mamaliga cu brinza like normal pewople]
mircea_popescu: no i mean, the common, standard foodl. regarded as ideal by the village prisoners.
asciilifeform: !s american cheese
assbot: 13 results for 'american cheese' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=american+cheese
asciilifeform: ^ same effect, discussed in at least one old thread
asciilifeform: folks will go and look for the shitsoup they grew up with, yes.
mircea_popescu actually likes it, has it in argentina even.
mircea_popescu: perhaps the only time romania's ww1 peculiar dish was eaten here this millenium
mircea_popescu: mamaliga cu brinza.
asciilifeform: the porrige? nothing wrong with that
asciilifeform knows of this dish only from father, who travelled a good bit in ro
asciilifeform: (in the old days)
mircea_popescu: it's not really hard to make, need pot with water and coarse ground corn. and a woman that knows how long to boil it and what proportions.
asciilifeform only learned how to make proper 'манная каша' (english, approx, 'cream of wheat') as an adult; and is still tempted to try doing it in a chemist's double boiler with magnetic stir bar
mircea_popescu: casa's different
asciilifeform: but mentioned because it suffers from same problem
asciilifeform: has to be kept at low boil for entire time
mircea_popescu: more heavily, ithink
asciilifeform: and stirred or it bakes onto the pot
asciilifeform: hence it is absolutely begging for chemist's boiler and magnetic stirrer
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11168 @ 0.00072036 = 8.045 BTC [+] {2}
asciilifeform: mod6: these look superficially correct, but need to be 1) compared mechanically and 2) rebased as i spoke of earlier
mod6: yup yup, i recall. just trying to make sure i'm on the right track so i don't waste everyones time :]
asciilifeform: mod6: very much on right track
mod6: good deal. i'll see what I can do about the mechanical checking and rebasing maybe later tonight, or tomorrow for sure.
asciilifeform: mod6: neat
assbot: Logged on 22-08-2015 13:05:58; punkman: "before he resigned from the library he realized that his trick had occurred to someone else. Several of the paintings he made had been replaced, his copies stolen. So the Academy was exhibiting fakes of fakes and someone was selling, or trying to sell, art by Xiao."
assbot: F for Fake (1974) - Rotten Tomatoes ... ( http://bit.ly/1KcHxZv )
mircea_popescu: For every auction sale, a catalogue is produced describing each painting to be sold. Every entry indicates the certainty with which Sotheby's is prepared to attribute it to a particular artist. The catalogue entry may describe a painting in the following ways: i) Simply putting the name of the artist, for example, ‘Giovanni Bellini,' means that, in Sotheby's opinion, the work is by Bellini. ii) Attributed to Giovanni
mircea_popescu: Bellini means that, in Sotheby's opinion, this is probably a work by Bellini, but there is less certainty expressed as to authorship than in the preceding category. iii) Studio of Giovanni Bellini means that, in their opinion, this is a work by an unknown hand in the studio of Bellini, and it may or may not have been executed under his direction. iv) Circle of Giovanni Bellini means that, in their opinion, it is a wor
mircea_popescu: k by an as yet unidentified but distinct hand, closely associated with Bellini but not necessarily his pupil. v) Style/Follower of Giovanni Bellini means that, in their opinion, this is a work by a painter working in Bellini's style, contemporary or nearly contemporary, but not necessarily his pupil. ‘Contemporary or nearly contemporary' means that it was painted within about 50 years of Bellini's work. vi) Manner of
mircea_popescu: Giovanni Bellini means that in their opinion, this is a work in the style of Bellini and of a later date. vii) After Giovanni Bellini means that in their opinion, this is a copy of a known work of Bellini.
mircea_popescu: check these people out, they have fine art authorship grading down to a fine art!
asciilifeform: i can't wait till they start doing circus like this for, e.g., a pgp signature
mircea_popescu: the merit of a pgp signature is that it delivers them from having to do this.
asciilifeform: like that czech short story, author i can't recall, where a 'graphologist' is made to pronounce re: the authenticity of a typewritten page!
mircea_popescu: do not think that the intelligent people caught like bubbles in the fiat mire are happy to be there.
asciilifeform: proceeding from a mandated assumption that it was written by human hand
mircea_popescu: this is commonly done! typewriters are handwriters.
asciilifeform: yes, but not done as graphology
mircea_popescu: nonono. there is such a thing as "identify typewriter"
asciilifeform: but as own legit procedure, invented later
mircea_popescu: well yeah
asciilifeform: this was prior.
ag3nt_zer0: "The final directorial project the legendary Orson Welles completed during his lifetime, F for Fake is less a documentary than an example of cinematic free association on the topic of trickery. Much of the film is in fact drawn from other sources, most notably an unfinished documentary by Francois Reichenbach on the notorious Elmyr de Hory, whose extremely skillful forgeries of famous paintings caused scandals amongst art
ag3nt_zer0: of irony, de Hory's interviewer is author Clifford Irving, who became infamous due to a forgery of his own: a falsified autobiography of Howard Hughes. Welles openly re-edits and manipulates this footage, using it as a spine for his own commentary, arguing that there is an extremely close relationship between art and lying, and citing instances from his own career to prove the point."
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-08-2015#1248670 << i still see ~actual authentication~ as being ~incidental~ to these proceedings. as in j.e.hoover's famous quip 'justice is incidental to law and order'
assbot: Logged on 22-08-2015 19:30:03; mircea_popescu: the merit of a pgp signature is that it delivers them from having to do this.
asciilifeform: they don't 'have to', but want to. the conclusion is pre-ordained.
mircea_popescu: i do not share this view.
mircea_popescu: ag3nt_zer0 i dun think much of welles as a director.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 57650 @ 0.0007213 = 41.5829 BTC [+] {4}
ag3nt_zer0: ok, don't really have an opinion on him myself, but I thought that film was quite entertaining... like a cinematic hall of mirrors or something
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: consider, http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=06-03-2015#1044114 - ergo, 'this vermeer, in the gallery of our esteemed lord rothchild, is genuine. this picasso, in the suitcase of this ragged thief and scoundrel, is most certainly questionable.'
assbot: Logged on 06-03-2015 03:29:02; mircea_popescu: making money is a purely ~political~ function. if you are among the favoured elite of the respublica veneta, you then may invest in the ships, and make a profit. if not, not.
ag3nt_zer0: and Irving and Elmyr are quite the characters haha
asciilifeform: and the 'questionable' is 'surely genuine' when ragged man goes to jail and the canvas finds its way to lord rothchild.
mircea_popescu: you have a strange equivocation of power an' legitimacy going on there, asciilifeform
mircea_popescu: justice covers two different things.
mircea_popescu: or how shall i put this, there are two types of question justice answers.
ag3nt_zer0: mircea_popescu: who do you hold in high esteem as a director?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: two?
mircea_popescu: but honestly, Visconti is probably the best dirctor that ever lived.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes. vaguely speaking, one's a contest among the crowd of boys. "everyone wants to be the one at the wheel, so who shall ?"
ag3nt_zer0: thanks I will look
mircea_popescu: the other's a more fundamental type of dispute, you could stilisize as "between man and god".
asciilifeform: i see the proceedings of that court as similar to those of all modern courts: a continuation of the basic lie of 'rule of law', where 'it is not the sultan who condemns you to impalement, but the majesty of the law'
mircea_popescu: roman practice suffered the tension, but also made it amply abundant
asciilifeform: a legitimacy-washing.
mircea_popescu: you do this because you don't recognise the fundamental tension, and so examples in one line cloud your estimation of the other.
mircea_popescu: but you're familiar with the roman, and originally greek notions of "broke the laws of men and gods" yes ?
asciilifeform: the spray paint was thinner in those days
mircea_popescu: this does not at all translate into civil and criminal
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 81159 @ 0.00070855 = 57.5052 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: well look, you agree with the broad idea that no man made thing may endure without a place the buck stops ?
mircea_popescu: wheresoever that place is, whosoever sits in it, has the same twin problem no matter what.
mircea_popescu: ag3nt_zer0 see "la terra trema". think that the film was made in the 1950s by using RANDOM LOCALS
mircea_popescu: then tell me.
asciilifeform: there was, i think, a third, more pressing problem: why ought the sultan rule, when he can invent bureaucracy and have amoebas rule in his stead, while he bangs 10,000 chicks/year and smokes opium
asciilifeform: they solved it with 'law'.
mircea_popescu: for one thing, no opium smoker bangs 30 women a day even for two days straight,
asciilifeform: consider, why is soviet law seen as a laughing stock ?
asciilifeform: i would say it is only because it did not have centuries of decorative patina on it.
mircea_popescu: because made by stupid people.
asciilifeform: so it was apparent, and remains apparent, for what it is.
mircea_popescu: why are ww2 soviet tanks a laughing stock ?
asciilifeform: ask the germans if they laughed.
mircea_popescu: ask stolje if he laughed at law.
mircea_popescu: they're both equally ridiculous things, for the same exact reason : made "as best we could" by the russians of the time, who were peasants not lawmakers or tank makers. they have all the qualities of chinese farm steel.
asciilifeform: (more complicated story, with tank. diesel motor was an unambiguous win, as all tank makers eventually came to know.)
mircea_popescu: on the practical side, they both WORKED, if one's tolerant with the concept. soviet law maintained order in a larger thing than the us, better than the us managed.
asciilifeform: except it was not, largely, 'law' which maintained order. 'law' was simply the religious incantation uttered by judge before a troublemaker was sent to meet his fate
asciilifeform: rather than an actual decision-making mechanism
asciilifeform: when this was no longer the case, the edifice began to fall apart.
mircea_popescu: and the tank was not, strictly speaking, a tank.
mircea_popescu: and whjen they gave up their random approach, they came up with the kv, an overengineered useless pos.
asciilifeform: ^ famous 'second-system effect'! like 'multics.' for that matter, it is an atrocity that scholarly discussions of 'second-system' and 'multics' do not mention the kv !
mircea_popescu: because they're as ignorant as my dirty socks.
mircea_popescu: yes, they were on my feet. they have cells descuamated off me even.
mircea_popescu: whadda they know for it.
asciilifeform: 'Прощай КВ братишка наш!!!'
assbot: Прощай КВ братишка наш!!! - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1KcJRiU )
mircea_popescu: ahaha wtf is this retarded shit
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 57104 @ 0.00069548 = 39.7147 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: aaaahahaha
assbot: По полю танки грохотали... (Гибель танкиста и т. д.) ... ( http://bit.ly/1KcK062 )
asciilifeform: one of those things that everybody knew the wordz to.
mircea_popescu: no i know teh song lol.
mircea_popescu: 325 views ? "obligatory" ? is this like... made by your gf's younger brother or something ? howdja find it
asciilifeform: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sV942i_zbzE << minus the tards, for anyone who needs it.
assbot: На поле танки грохотали (Na Pole Tanki Grohotali) - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1KcK4CY )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: from first stab
mircea_popescu: see, these kids is the fundamental reason a) ru young women are well fucked (well means more than just a lot) and b) the chechens aren't isis.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 99133 @ 0.00069167 = 68.5673 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: does not even agree with "tards" to any degree. yes they sound like monkeys. this is not retarded for their age, healthy 17 yo boys sound like that.
asciilifeform: nah. tards 'cause the thing wasn't full of saltpetre and didn't light well!
asciilifeform: mine did
mircea_popescu: but tard means something very anglo-speciffic.
asciilifeform: perhaps.
mircea_popescu: it means this 27 yo man that is indistinguishable from an 11 yo girl.
asciilifeform: certain that the authors of the film were not this ?
mircea_popescu: i am persuaded.
asciilifeform: they have, after all, learned to manufacture those, back in ru.
asciilifeform: gotta copy ~all~ american innovations, ya know.
mircea_popescu: could be wrng, who knows.
asciilifeform: but easiest ones get copied first!
mircea_popescu: this being the only "american innovation" ?
asciilifeform: nah, but a popular one for some reason.
mircea_popescu: incidentally, even though modern pigments and computers and what have you, we're not being deluged in fine art, as "you'd expect" (if you were say orwell or some other dumb schmuck with the If a man cannot enjoy the return of spring, why should he be happy in a labour-saving Utopia? What will he do with the leisure that the machine will give him? I have always suspected that if our economic and political problems are e
mircea_popescu: ver really solved, life will become simpler instead of more complex, and that the sort of pleasure one gets from finding the first primrose will loom larger than the sort of pleasure one gets from eating an ice to the tune of a Wurlitzer." thing)
mircea_popescu: instead the stuff everywhere's remarkably gross.
mircea_popescu: why ? why, because the redditar of 1600 thought himself blessed to "waste his life away" being a "from X's circle" at the very best. whereas the redditard of 2000 thinks his life too valuable to invest in anything. he is now a thinking man, don't you know, an intellectual - everyone's an intellectual that has computers, suddenly - and a tiny little Kitschhochadel in his own right!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: orwell assumed that full-scale human beings were a naturally-occurring product that could be taken for granted.
mircea_popescu: yes. because he was a socialist, which is to say an idiot, and expected socialism, which always is "externalise costs" to be able to do so forever.
mircea_popescu: who the hell knew EVERYTHING had a cost!
mircea_popescu: what, you can't just print more money and the expectation to the contrary sinks early sopcialism ?
asciilifeform: where in orwell do we see 'print money' ?
mircea_popescu: no matter! we "learn from mistakes", ie, claim that "socialism wasn't actually tried" and try again. the same thing. this time, we're printing people.,
mircea_popescu: what, still doesn't work ? NO MATTER!!!1 for we "learn from mistakes"
mircea_popescu: the thief also learns from the dubious mistake of having been caught.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform we don't, he's advanced.
mircea_popescu: he's not stupid v1, he's stupid v3.
mircea_popescu: down with the shackles of this evil british empire of the blips which nevertheless creates the sort of people i like, even if i'm not actuaslly good enough to do anything in support. let's build utopia.
asciilifeform: as far as i can tell, it was dead long before he learned to read and write
asciilifeform: what was he to do, cry over the corpse like his contemporaries? then we would not be reading!
mircea_popescu: i did not say orwell was ineffectuial. i said he was stupid.
mircea_popescu: yes the bridge is falling whether 5yo cheers it on or not.
asciilifeform: i still want to picture a 'smart orwell'
mircea_popescu: but the cheering 5yo is still dumbn
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform : ;;google trilema napier
asciilifeform: at one point, iirc, he quotes the mega-liturgical 'The rich man in his castle, / The poor man at his gate, / God made them, high or lowly, / And ordered their estate.' as an example of the kind of thing that killing christianity finally nailed, and he can't bring himself to miss it
asciilifeform: but i don't see that this necessarily qualifies him as a tard. how is one to love something which is incompatible with your own existence ?
mircea_popescu: a) never was this nailed, anymore than the sun rising is "nailed".
mircea_popescu: and the poor array of the marbles in his head's his problem.
mircea_popescu: "So perverse is mankind that every nationality prefers to be misgoverned by its own people than to be well ruled by another."
mircea_popescu: that's smart orwell for you.
asciilifeform: can be extended to individual, as well.
mircea_popescu: so it can. except the individual has the valid excuse of the sexual imperative
mircea_popescu: but countries are unsexuate
asciilifeform: ergo the old thread re: why a sp4mz0r wants to 'make $ while sleep'
mircea_popescu: (which is why they're referred in the feminine)
asciilifeform: orwell, like - i suspect - a great many folks, carried out the algo where 'i want the kind of world in which i and others like me can sleep ad libitum and eat well' - and turned that into 'philosophy'
mircea_popescu: yes, the philosophy of a five year old.
mircea_popescu: which is why i say socialism is for stupid people and the mark of their stupidity.
mircea_popescu: every fucking year you get at least one of the imbecile "why should i have to take an exam".
mircea_popescu: every fucking year.
mircea_popescu: and each one thinks he invented it.
asciilifeform: the way i read him, he saw 'socialism' (in the sense of industry having a single mega-imperial owner) as a done deal, with the only question being whether the end result would have a gestapo flavour, british ponce buggery flavour, or some other
mircea_popescu: that part i wasnt even discussing, the "economic" side so to speak. yes, moist people are dumb and industry has no need of them, so from their perspertive industry's run by aliens. fine.
mircea_popescu: but i meant in the more homely sense.
asciilifeform: elaborate?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and btw, thinking about it - i now realise visconti, the son of the duke visconti no less, actually is the one example of resistence through culture known. his terra trema was paid for by the communist party. and in it he delivers such a trashing to the pious frauds of the communists as has never before seen.
mircea_popescu: the most important film in support of sanity is a story of poor but stupid sicilian fishermen paid for by fucking stalin.
mircea_popescu: and i meant in the more homely sense, socialist-books and socialist-philosophy and what have you. not socialist-economy.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 82850 @ 0.00071101 = 58.9072 BTC [+] {3}
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what books and philosophy of his time ought he have reviewed instead ?
mircea_popescu: the germans. heidegger.
asciilifeform: evola? prolly smelled too much of gestapo, triggered anaphylactic allergic shock in mr o
asciilifeform: as a cultured man, he likely read'em. but i spoke specifically of 'his time'
asciilifeform: as in, his reviews
asciilifeform: the man was a newspaper columnist.
mircea_popescu: bullshit, read.
mircea_popescu: and heidegger is his own time.
mircea_popescu: that is an excuse ?
asciilifeform: then likely allergic to germans ?
mircea_popescu: how about "allergic to work".
asciilifeform: and of course to work!
assbot: Fifty Orwell Essays ... ( http://bit.ly/1UDzJTv )
mircea_popescu: nbo dude, not OF COURSE TO WORK omfg,
mircea_popescu: the "Worker's party" of stupid people and lazy people who figure hey, if worker's in the title above the door work does itself somehow
mircea_popescu: we'll just sing and dance.
mircea_popescu: everyone in this country got nothing but "trabajador" in his mouth, and no one's done an honest stitch of work since 1924
asciilifeform: idk, i saw a good number of cabbies, cooks, over there. not worked ?
mircea_popescu: those keep their mouth shut.
mircea_popescu: i meant of the orwell class.
mircea_popescu: two-and-sixpence intellectuals of "newspaper columnist:
mircea_popescu: (for the younger log reader, "two-and-sixpence" is not random, but a century ago made half a crown. it is used in a sense similar to "too clever by half", because that's really what half a crown is. worse than either a whole crown or no crown at all. at least in the context of this discussion)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform come to think of it - he has a deeply unwarranted sense of superiority over shaw. easily the most important thinker of the period in all the english speaking lands.
mircea_popescu: i suspect this is also based on not having read.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 50559 @ 0.00068366 = 34.5652 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: anyway, the main problem with that art ruling thing, getting back to it, is that revisionism in inflation is a bitch. specifically, that sale was in 2006, before the first bout of "quantitative easing". most art of all description sells today for 10x to 100x what it did two decades ago, simply because dollars today, and euros today, are scarcely worth 10 cents. (no, this does not mean nothing to the slaves that spend "
mircea_popescu: their" "dollars" to buy from mcdonalds and zara. money only means money in the hands of the people who can use it independently, and what someone with tens of millions to his name was in 1995, is what someone wit ha billion to his name today. i'd know.)
mircea_popescu: so in plain point of fact "the guy would have gotten more in the alternative world" bla bla bla.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 99050 @ 0.0006842 = 67.77 BTC [+]
ben_vulpes: fluffypony: it's a joke, man.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: well, yes. art is used precisely like bitcoin, but by the enemy.
mircea_popescu: not by the enemy, but by the kulaks behind enemy lines.
asciilifeform: by the architects of the sum total of extant misfortune.
mircea_popescu: i am not convinced.
mircea_popescu: why do you think so ?
asciilifeform: what, the rembrandt owners couldn't turn inflation off like a tap ?
mircea_popescu: could not, no.
mircea_popescu: what, stalin couldn't turn off stupid like a tap ?
mircea_popescu: hitler could have took a stand in 1940 against antisemitism!
mircea_popescu: only i have the privilege to stand up here and say something of the kind. because i'm part of a fucking republic.
asciilifeform: who cancelled gold standard? omnipotent martians?
mircea_popescu: these people don't have a forum.
asciilifeform: or earth elite
mircea_popescu: gold standard was cancelled by the mass of idiots.
mircea_popescu: who went by the "why should something be a standard if what it says is, we don't get any and stfu"
asciilifeform: since when can 'mass of idiots' make any permanent mark at all?
asciilifeform: somebody took'em off the leash.
mircea_popescu: exactly like they go "oh, why should i read trilema if trilema says i'm broken"
asciilifeform: these folks - own rembrandts.
mircea_popescu: they are punishing me, see, like they punished the gold standard. in their own heads.
mircea_popescu: haha, someone took them off the leash. ww2 took them off the leash./
mircea_popescu: and the napoleonic wars before that.
asciilifeform: if you ask moldy, it was cromwell
asciilifeform: but no matter
mircea_popescu: and the german uprisings during calvin before that. and so on.
phf: (was it in the logs, guy brings authentic X "passed through family", gets accused of stealing, because "you're poor, so can't possibly have X")
asciilifeform: at any rate, what, the rembrandt owners couldn't sell the crap off (to usg, even. it's buying), buy btc, and send to isis?
asciilifeform: what does their refusal to do so make'em ?
mircea_popescu: understand : we have the liberty to decide tomorrow that gavin was right. or that bitcoin is stupid. or that whatever else. all this because liberty AT ALL.
mircea_popescu: but there is no liberty outside.
mircea_popescu: so, no. kulaks behind enemy lines made no decisions.
asciilifeform: phf: yes, in the logs; a german fella
asciilifeform: phf: and it is absolutely routine
mircea_popescu: and they are responsible and shall hang for the decisions they didn't make.
asciilifeform: ^ is what i was getting at.
mircea_popescu: phf "passed through family" in that context is always a miserable cop out.
mircea_popescu: somehow never is anyone in that family someone with a registered key.
mircea_popescu: magically.
mircea_popescu: so i do not credit it nearly as much as you two seem to.
asciilifeform: here is a 'fun experiment' - get caught somewhere in a 'civilized' country with a trunk full of gold bar
asciilifeform: or even humble benjies
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you understand what i mean by "in the wot" in that context ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9747 @ 0.000722 = 7.0373 BTC [+]
asciilifeform: not certain that i do ?
mircea_popescu: suppose i have a work picasso himself signed with the title "stanislav's teapot shaped head"
mircea_popescu: and i explain that this comes to me "through family".
mircea_popescu: except this "through family" claim is documented through five different testations, and it so happens that my uncle was a picasso expert who wrote extensively of this picasso work his brother owned.
mircea_popescu: and so on.
mircea_popescu: my claim is good.
assbot: "A Figure of Speech, or a Figure of Thought?" (Part 1) - an essay by Ananda K. Coomaraswamy ... ( http://bit.ly/1WLD58Y )
mircea_popescu: now suppose i "own" the same, "in the family", but my family is a bunch of poor peasants from honduras.
mircea_popescu: wut "in family" ?
mircea_popescu: let me show you "in the family".
ag3nt_zer0: Coomaraswamy is fascinating "art historian"
assbot: Stolen Picasso and Monet art 'burned' in Romanian oven - BBC News ... ( http://bit.ly/1WLD9FR )
assbot: Logged on 03-02-2015 22:35:01; asciilifeform: 'mr x, you're a registered pauper, but is that a first class air ticket you're holding? where'dyagetthat'
mircea_popescu: well of course ?!
asciilifeform: to which you answered 'and then i say i found it on the street.'
mircea_popescu: what worth is an undocumented claim ?
mircea_popescu: we reject these here on a daily basis!
asciilifeform: to the inquisitor - naturally nothing
assbot: Logged on 20-08-2015 23:05:51; ahmed_bodi: Occasional trader. remember trading with a few people here. lost my PGP? key so i cant auth with assbot myself anymore
mircea_popescu: what is that claim to you ?
mircea_popescu: guy's obviously a scammer fishing for soft support, decimation style.
asciilifeform: except that the two situations are dissimilar
asciilifeform: pgp is a hard litmus
mircea_popescu: so is this.
asciilifeform: the picasso authentication folks purport to be authenticating the canvas,
asciilifeform: but really are testing blueness of blood.
mircea_popescu: here's the litmus : "what part of this alleged family HAPPENED IN THE FORUM ?"
asciilifeform: not saying that somehow there ~ought~ to be a way for the peasant to cash his picasso in
mircea_popescu: so then what are you saying ?
asciilifeform: but that the claim that the picasso is the object being tested is a crock of shit
mircea_popescu: there isn't a way for peasant to OWN picasso
asciilifeform: it is the man who is tested.
mircea_popescu: not anymore than there's a way for him to own plutonium.
asciilifeform: and it usually doesn't take long.
mircea_popescu: ownership is not an objective thing.,
mircea_popescu: ownership is a convention
mircea_popescu: it is wrong to say "the man is tested
mircea_popescu: the WOT is tested.
mircea_popescu: no relations, NO RELATION!
asciilifeform: i don't think we actually disagree here.
mircea_popescu: so then what do you protest ?!
asciilifeform: the pretence of the scumbag 'authenticity' judges
asciilifeform: and auctioneers.
mircea_popescu: "i owned it since forever" "who ever saw it ?" "only mute people"
asciilifeform: with their idiot rituals
mircea_popescu: i do not see it.
mircea_popescu: if you claim that "hilary clinton is my wife" on the grounds of "she was always in my family" should your claim stand ?
mircea_popescu: against the nonsensical vacuum of anyone ever having seen this ?
mircea_popescu: no wedding pictures?
mircea_popescu: you never went anywhere as a couple ?
mircea_popescu: she did, with others ?
mircea_popescu: yes, people will consider you're abject, after this claim. but the claim was disposed not on the grounds of who you are, but on the grounds of what proof was had.
asciilifeform: my other, separate statement was 'godspeed to anyone successfully faking and debasing their inflationhedgemachines'
asciilifeform: separate item.
mircea_popescu: well sure.
mircea_popescu: you'll notice however that the debasement is very well controlled in the same manner fed controlls the dollar.
mircea_popescu: they keep pumping more kids in as they need to keep the denominations low enough.
hanbot: <asciilifeform> it is the man who is tested. << http://trilema.com/2012/bitcoin-and-the-poor/#comment-90231
assbot: Bitcoin and the poor on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1WLE6hf )
mircea_popescu knows random romanian kid that sold for ~1.5mn last year
mircea_popescu: because why not
asciilifeform: hanbot: what i meant was, tested for 'blue blood' and not anything else. certainly not intelligence, or culture.
mircea_popescu: the test still is "who among you has a wot account"!
hanbot: which condenses to "who among you has/d the intelligence to get in the wot", neh?
assbot: Part 2: Looking at the art world over Adrian Ghenie’s shoulder and why I hate it or love it. Not sure. ... ( http://bit.ly/1WLEk84 )
asciilifeform: hanbot: are you in their wot ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it's fucking trivial to get in said wot.
mircea_popescu: yes rly.
asciilifeform: describe?
mircea_popescu: a) go to classical/art college ; b) go to auction house intern position ; c) write for whoever will publish about art and do a good job.
mircea_popescu: won't take 10 years, at how condensed timeframes are now. used to be 35-50.
asciilifeform: i'm not sure how an algo that requires me to get reborn as another person can be described as 'trivial'.
mircea_popescu: yes, well, what's your algo to become cussack ?
asciilifeform: 'how to fly? 1) be a bird'
mircea_popescu: THAT is a wot you're not getting in.
phf: "You? Impossible! A mason?" "A mason," I replied. "A sign," he said, "a sign." "It is this," I answered, producing from beneath the folds of my roquelaire a trowel.
mircea_popescu: but your argument is flawed, which i know personally, and ill tell you why
mircea_popescu: one of my dearest teachers in college, at the time a respected doctor, retired
mircea_popescu: and started a career in art, specifically painting scholarship
mircea_popescu: and he is now a foremost authority in his field.
mircea_popescu: i have with mine two eyes seen this, and so...
asciilifeform: and he turned up with an undiscovered picasso and it sold for 40m ?
mircea_popescu: no, for his field was not cubism
asciilifeform: $picasso
mircea_popescu: (his field was 1800s ro painting, which incidentally is pretty rich.)
asciilifeform: and sold ?
mircea_popescu: yes sold. he re-evalued numerous items.
mircea_popescu: in the upper 100s at the very least.
asciilifeform: so from the wot pov, it is not an atrocity that if usg enforcers find me with a metric tonne of benjie bills in bags, they will take'em ?
asciilifeform: if the story of why i have them isn't plausible enough
asciilifeform: 'in the family' 'stow it'
mircea_popescu: well, it is an atrocity, because bills were itnended to be carrier notes.
mircea_popescu: but they re-defined them, apparently, to be a sort of cheques.
mircea_popescu: the part where they seem to also have forgotten to tell anyone is also atrrocious
asciilifeform: and the vermeer was intended as a wall decoration ?
asciilifeform: and also redefined
mircea_popescu: but in principle a parliament is not required to allow carrier notes in its realm.
mircea_popescu: i don't see how your simile works.
asciilifeform: in both cases there is a kind of sham going on
asciilifeform: one where the lie is publicly told that 'if you have a picasso, it is yours, and you're worth 40m'
mircea_popescu: no such thing was told.
asciilifeform: rather than the reality, where it is really a trapping of power, like king's scepter
mircea_popescu: i don't know that ever in the history of civilisation was fine art a bearer document.
mircea_popescu: now, this was true of money, or more specifically, of currency
mircea_popescu: in fact that's what the word even means.
asciilifeform: it is a regular occurrence in usa that some schmuck find $canvas at an estate sale, then cleans it, it gets taken off his hands for a few hundy, and then a blueblood naturally converts it to 40m by getting it WoTed.
mircea_popescu: nobody forces him to go through the "taken off" step.
asciilifeform: now this is true!
mircea_popescu: it used to be a regular occurence in the usa that some cowboy owned some land, got it taken off his hands, buyer became oil baron
asciilifeform: and i'll have it be known that if i ever come across one, i will burn it. on high-def camera.
mircea_popescu: but one is not required to sell, be your own oil baron.
asciilifeform: not quite best analogy - theoretically a plebe may drill for oil (if the local rulers permit it)
mircea_popescu: anyway, this expectation that some sort of nativism trumps wot is not unlike that swanson's fellow's expectation to tell me "how debates are done".
mircea_popescu: what is this, kauai ?
asciilifeform: naturally their wot is at work
asciilifeform: but it is a wot of vampires of mankind.
asciilifeform: (who said they couldn't have a wot?)
asciilifeform: and they do indeed peddle false inclusivity at every turn.
mircea_popescu: of vampires of wut!?
asciilifeform: of everybody-who-isnt-rothchild ?
asciilifeform: approximately.
mircea_popescu: can you say something more substantial of this than plain if third hand echos of 1970s soviet postcards ?
asciilifeform: possibly.
mircea_popescu: so. b-a is the irc channel where vampires of mankind gather, to discuss how to lower into pederasty the teenaged daughters of hard working social media wokers.
asciilifeform: nah, the socialmedia folks are enforcers of the actual vampires.
asciilifeform: i still don't see how they could have come to exist in any other way
mircea_popescu: this sounds like special pleading and nothing more.
asciilifeform: let's try example? the american universities who pioneered socialist claptrap. did they get cut off from endowments by american industrialists for doing so? 1900s
asciilifeform: iirc none did.
asciilifeform: so 'social media' is a a handcrafted monster of very real elites, rather than a plague of locusts that came out of nowhere
mircea_popescu: dja know what special pleading means ?
asciilifeform: apparently not ?
mircea_popescu: special pleading is a category of pleading, which is a category of speech, which happens in the forum, where the speaker proposes that one member of a category be different from the others on no grounds.
asciilifeform: but proposed a hypothesis about whole class here
mircea_popescu: you don't get to pick the class.
mircea_popescu: the class at issue is the class which includes that "they" and that other "they" and also "us".
mircea_popescu: so you say "they came as locusts" ? so did we. ask the power rangers.
asciilifeform: if mircea_popescu's intel tells him that the power rangers see us as locust plague, i'll believe him; but from my chair i cannot see this.
asciilifeform: afaik they don't see us at all.
mircea_popescu: sure, and exact same could be argued (and has been argued, by people arguing from your same chari) about trhe evil capitalists which "do not even see the common people they vampirize"
asciilifeform doesn't object to elites per se (sorta like objecting to gravity) or to hereditary wealth (also rather like objecting to gravity) but arguing for the degeneracy of a particular set of people
asciilifeform: like hapsburgs. do we miss'em ?
asciilifeform: do we miss romanovs ?
mircea_popescu: you did not phrase it in those terms.
mircea_popescu: i don't think there's any
mircea_popescu: debate that teh peoples involved have little juice left in the ballsac.
asciilifeform: idk, i thought 'godspeed to fakers of vermeers' and 'good bilderberg is a dead bilderberg' was pretty clear..?
asciilifeform: and also idk, for an empty ballsack it's jizzing pretty well
asciilifeform: but i don't have mircea_popescu's intel. only My Arse (tm)
mircea_popescu: well the entire contention was the strange notion that peasant who "finds" vermeer and "has always had it in family" should get to keep it.
mircea_popescu: perhaps by this notion same peasant who finds young dutchess and "always had her in family" should ALSO keep her
mircea_popescu: which is quite contradictory with all the soaps the peasant women watch, which all reduce to
asciilifeform: the explanation involving cheques/promissory notes was pretty neat
mircea_popescu: "pretty miss dutchess found by peasants - they didn't get to keep her"
asciilifeform: it makes the subject click in my head.
asciilifeform: sorta like if a pauper finds a ring of keys - he doesn't get to own the house and car.
asciilifeform: (and this happens to be one of the reasons why many folks barf at bitcoin...)
mircea_popescu: technically money, in its circulatory form (ie, currency - to distinguish from the money as unit of account, for instance) was coins and bank-notes. coins are now disused, for entirely practical reasons ; and bank-notes come in those two flavours. moving from one to the other isn't THAT big a leap.
asciilifeform: aha. i think every kid in usa knows of the $1000 bill, for instance.
asciilifeform: (and perhaps even saw it in a museum)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 59300 @ 0.00070964 = 42.0817 BTC [-]
asciilifeform: but don't be caught with one on the street, yes.
asciilifeform: though now i'm hard-pressed to see how fdr's confiscation of gold is illegitimate under the framework outlined in this thread
mircea_popescu: for the record, it's not even clear moving from bearer to certified insturment is anti-liberty. for insmtance - hansa used the certifierd instrument greatly, because as a merchant, giving your son a plain "pay the bearer so much silver upon presentation of this note in such town" was merely an invitation to any highwayman on route to "please fuck this young man in the ass and here's the pay for your trouble"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it did prevail in the justice of the time, did it not.
asciilifeform: so did the wickard v filburn
asciilifeform: which was really just 'fdr gets to do whatever the fuck he wants'
mircea_popescu: how do you propose to run a country ?
asciilifeform: fortunately it is not in my job description! but no shortage of historic examples to choose from..
mircea_popescu: and misunderstand.
asciilifeform: inescapably.
mircea_popescu: "how do you propose to make diff work ?" "above my pay grade chief, but here's a website with code snippets"
asciilifeform: but i don't recall qin zhihuangdi, or peter I, or alexander, prohibiting gold
mircea_popescu: i recall the roman REPUBLIC prohibiting gold
mircea_popescu: so much so they all had to bury it.
asciilifeform: unlike orwell, i don't see totalitarian prison state as automagically flowing from modern tech
mircea_popescu: nothing flows fropm tech except for more tech
mircea_popescu: that's the thing. technology is intellectually sterile.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: yes. didn't say 'no one did this', just 'no shortage of sane examples'
asciilifeform: of folks who did not.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform your no shortage of "sane examples" refers to an abundance of "convenient retelliungs"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: yes, i know fdr and co.'s explanation of why they 'had to' confiscate
mircea_popescu: tell it to me.
asciilifeform: crash of '29; massive capital misallocations plus natural disasters and misharvests; hordes of paupers demanding to be fed gratis, or failing that, given makework; fdr & co debase currency, make it happen.
asciilifeform: (yes, moar complicated, and could - and has - fill a bookcase. but this is the 1line version in my head)
asciilifeform: ^ aha, them too
asciilifeform: iirc that was the biggest
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform do me a favour, read http://trilema.com/2011/de-pe-cind-eram-io-mai-tinar/ then we can continue this conversation
assbot: De pe cind eram io mai tinar on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1LpuVgl )
mircea_popescu: (can you actually read stuff like that or should i provide a summary instead ?)
mircea_popescu: !up antonosika
antonosika: !register 101F52A1B302AB64E82BC090E813577509B35230
assbot: Nick antonosika is already taken.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i think i get it..
mircea_popescu: "i am taking this from you because you're too stupid to have it". and they knew this is true, and SIGHED THEIR RELIEF.
mircea_popescu: that's what it is.
asciilifeform: spiffy piece btw
asciilifeform: consider posting in other languages.
mircea_popescu: what, reddit doesn't have enough to spaz over ?
antonosika: If I do not have access to my backup key, and have a new comp - what proof would work to claim the long party as antonosika?
mircea_popescu: you need your key.
asciilifeform: 'I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question!' (tm) (r) (babbage)
antonosika: What if no one claims a future?
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: can we wire this to !babbage or the like, l0l
mircea_popescu: eh what, moar spam ?
asciilifeform: nah just tired of retyping it.
asciilifeform: antonosika: what does it mean, 'if no one claims a future' ?
assbot: Logged on 22-08-2015 16:18:02; asciilifeform: importantly, these need to be detached (own file) signatures. specifically ~not~ like this: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-August/000150.html
phf: "found nick, has been in generation for years"
asciilifeform: punkman: a .sig file should consist wholly of the detached sig
punkman: asciilifeform: and it wasn't?
asciilifeform: punkman: i should not have to munge it.
mircea_popescu: phf do you actually speak russian to the women ?
asciilifeform: punkman: correct, there were extraneous bytes in the linked example.
asciilifeform: that it, outside of the ----BEGIN .... ----END...
mats: ;;gpg info antonosika
gribble: User 'antonosika', with keyid 86AC5789F93ED2E7, fingerprint 71A1EC4E1B6C7DD853FD856C86AC5789F93ED2E7, and bitcoin address None, registered on Sat Aug 9 17:27:20 2014, last authed on Tue Aug 26 10:21:38 2014. http://b-otc.com/vg?nick=antonosika . Currently not authenticated.
punkman: asciilifeform: I don't see it
mats: no bitcoin address, think you're fucked, mate
antonosika: Thanks.
antonosika: I am antonosika fingerprint 71A1EC4E1B6C7DD853FD856C86AC5789F93ED2E7. I'll do anything to prove it. I'm looking forward to claim a future contract. But I do not have access to my secret key.
asciilifeform: punkman: actually you're right, i misread. assumed that the sig in the text is the sig in question
asciilifeform: punkman: but apparently jurov's turdatron accepts a standalong sig with no payload..
asciilifeform: this actually means that it is vulnerable to to shitflooding
punkman: was a feature I think
punkman: maybe because it already had the file
asciilifeform: unless it actually looks for a pre-existing payload and checks against it
asciilifeform: i do not know whether he does this.
asciilifeform: ;;later tell jurov what does your turdatron script do with attached sigs for which the message has no corresponding payload? looks through existing payloads ?
gribble: The operation succeeded.
assbot: Logged on 22-08-2015 15:59:15; asciilifeform: creating the antipatch is likely to require some manual manipulation.
asciilifeform: punkman: i did not say that i liked it.
asciilifeform: punkman: you are invited to suggest a plausible alternative.
mats: antonosika: this is related to X.EUR yes? see section 2.3b
asciilifeform: punkman: but if your alternative involves my signing of machine-generated code chimera, then ~i~ will not like it.
asciilifeform: anyone who wants to use 'git' or some other tardation knows where to find it.
mats: you can talk to davout, but i doubt he will deliver to someone that cannot prove control of that fingerprint
asciilifeform: antonosika: in what way are you presently distinguishable from an impostor ?
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i've gotten the diff of your and my genesis down to the timestamps
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: we zapped the timestamps
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: were you awake for that one ?
ben_vulpes: yessir, but i don't think i implemented it correctly in my vdiff
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: see earlier thread today with mod6
antonosika: hypothetically, as long as there is only one suggestion for what account to make a payment to and the contract finiliz
asciilifeform: or trinque rather
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: didja post a genesis.vpatch without timestamps?
mircea_popescu: i'd seriously consider ending davout's contract if he pays without signature.
assbot: Logged on 22-08-2015 15:41:10; trinque: asciilifeform: I've produced a genesis.vpatch with your instructions which is only different from yours in terms of timestamps. expected result?
assbot: Logged on 22-08-2015 15:41:34; trinque: I recall discussion of removing the timestamps, but didn't find a conclusion there
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if he paid out to a random keyless amoeba, that'd be reason to conclude that he was shot and replaced not even by hitler's agent but by a street dog
antonosika: asciilifeform: hypothetically - as long as there is only one suggestion, from an impostor or not, for what account to make a payment to AND the contract finalises, wouldn't a future delivery contract state that a payment should take place?
asciilifeform: antonosika: instead of making this argument, go claim the megatonne of gold sitting in zurich since ww2
mats: how does that make sense? you may merely be the first to make the claim, and the genuine article did not yet get around to taking delivery
asciilifeform: antonosika: after all, 'payment should take place' and 'only one suggestion', yours
asciilifeform: go grab the zurich gold, why pester the x.eur folks
asciilifeform: antonosika: you have equally valid claim here and in zurich...
ben_vulpes: huzzah!
mircea_popescu: antonosika no, that's not what it says. the contract creates no nude obligation to pay, which may be satisfied, and then a separate and ulterior consideration as to whom.
mircea_popescu: it starts with the whom.
mircea_popescu: abstent the whom, there is no obligation.
punkman: antonosika: did you buy X.EUR on coinbr?
antonosika: mircea_popescu: I hope you take a good ulterior consideration until then.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: before you start recreating and signing 'orchestra' patches as well, also see the thread with mod6 where i explain that the paths need adjusting
mircea_popescu: i do what ?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: (they gotta be homogeneous, as in following the same dir pattern as in 'genesis', to avoid unnecessary complexity in my proggy)
mats: [2014-08-12 03:34:05] → antonosika joined (uid31762@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dhamorrkxglbonxi)
antonosika: take the action that you deem plausible
mats: poor guy does look like he may be the real thing. but, no private key, no futures :/
mircea_popescu: plausible can not be applied to action.
asciilifeform: mats: cold equations!
mats: an expensive lesson...
mircea_popescu: well, it's denominated in one euro increments, and i don't think he ever had outstanding enough to payu for even one year of college
asciilifeform: antonosika: http://thewhet.net/2012/shall-be-delivered << a less-expensive and altogether more diverting lesson
assbot: Shall be Delivered | The Whet ... ( http://bit.ly/1NtdDC1 )
mircea_popescu: so no, a very cheap lesson
antonosika: Thanks for the sympathy mats
antonosika: Still, there is plausibility, and https://twitter.com/antonosika
assbot: Anton Osika (@antonosika) | Twitter ... ( http://bit.ly/1NMPW4E )
mircea_popescu: nice pic
mircea_popescu: but you misspelled repetitive.
mircea_popescu: and what exactly do you suppose this proves ?
antonosika: fixed.
mats: utilitarian is also misspelled
antonosika: That the contract aims at the antonosika that you are talking to.
punkman: antonosika: was the lost key also registered at mpex?
mircea_popescu: lmao twitter now sucks uisers phone number as a "security" thijg too ?
mats: heh
mircea_popescu: anyway, i can't be arsed to, but it takes anyone five minutes to create a twitter accouint, link it to a dead website and say "dear mircea popoescu" on it
antonosika: for arguments sake, it says when it's registered.
mircea_popescu: a) twitter is a piece of shit web 2.0 item. they are probably hacked by 4 different teams as we speak and they don't even known
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30003 @ 0.0007021 = 21.0651 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: b) you farm these and let them age, what's the big deal. 99% of all social media accounts are registered for the purpose of aging and then be used in a scam exactly like is contemplated here.
mircea_popescu: be it scamming google or anything else.
assbot: Beck - Beck Reimagines David Bowie's "Sound and Vision" - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1NMRcop )
ag3nt_zer0: good for the soul
assbot: Logged on 22-08-2015 14:31:53; fluffypony: so 6 hours till North Korea says they'll retaliate
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-08-2015#1248343 << we still want the graph thing opf this btw.
assbot: Logged on 22-08-2015 15:51:32; asciilifeform: this makes it possible to mechanically trace a 'patchchain'
assbot: Logged on 22-08-2015 15:53:24; asciilifeform: 'v' will recursively walk the hashes in the release and apply the necessary vpatches to produce the tree.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-08-2015#1248374 << from my own pov it is very convenient, because it reduces to "sign the genesis and sign the meristems you are happy with in deployment"
assbot: Logged on 22-08-2015 16:05:39; asciilifeform: it is important that everyone who works on therealbitcoin sign 'genesis' and distribute said signature.
mircea_popescu: which is exactly a) what should be favoured (make it easy for the DEPLOYERS to sign, let the writers have to do all the hard work) and b) maximally economical.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the graph thing is quite essential (and if no one else does it, i will) because it exposes the actual dependency flow
mircea_popescu: maybe mike'd consider making it a subthing of his excellent wot graph
mircea_popescu: because really - they much belong together, and i expect synergy to be productive
mircea_popescu: (really, V chiefly exists because we put other thibngs together a while back, and we didn't at the time know yet this is how it'll come out.
mircea_popescu: and this exact scenario has played out a dozen or more times in the history of b-a
mircea_popescu: starting with its very birth)
mircea_popescu: ;;later tell mike_c hey, would you make the v graph alongside the wot graph ?
gribble: The operation succeeded.
punkman: no synergy plz, v will likely be used for other projects, without b-a wot, etc
mircea_popescu: other projects can go get fucked.
mircea_popescu: b-a is not a fucking gift "to humanity" as that "humanity" chooses to understand itself. b-a is a gift to humanity as defined by b-a.
mircea_popescu: humanity as it chooses to understand itself is the chief enemy, actually, and also the author of shit like the gnu diff. and everything else.
mircea_popescu: if it burns to the ground tomorrow it's about fifty million years too late.
punkman: sure, but why can't punkman use v for non-b-a project?
mircea_popescu: sure he can. go ahead.
mircea_popescu: but in being non-ba project, it misses out on all those things a ba project gets.
mircea_popescu: just like you can go make yourself a house on the prarie. it won't have running water. and all the whitegoods will work poorly fed from canister.
mircea_popescu: especially the dishwasher.
mircea_popescu: because the whitegoods are fucking made for a house with running water by people who have running water and intend to continue having it.
mircea_popescu: "There remains after today no alternative manner to deploy Bitcoin software, or indeed any software that is not a toy intended to be used by children playing, outside of this paradigm. May the switchover be bloody and painful in all the right places." is not some sort of a joke, and in no case can it be waved aside.
mircea_popescu: it is a central tenant of computer science, henceforth.
asciilifeform: tenet ?
asciilifeform out to meatspace for a spell
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39800 @ 0.00070509 = 28.0626 BTC [+]
ben_vulpes: i'm rather enamored of how bitcoin defines computers now.
mircea_popescu: tell me about it
mircea_popescu: and i didn't even understand computers before.
ben_vulpes: i still don't.
mircea_popescu: no i mean i didn't really have a very good idea
ben_vulpes: it's a good and simple definition. "it must build bitcoin with V, it must sync a full chain verifying each block, and it must keep up with the main chain."
mircea_popescu: "that machine which, unassisted, ~" yeah
mircea_popescu: first time the equivalent of turing's definition was constructed in practice.
ben_vulpes: by the by, does anyone know the zfx individual?
mircea_popescu: no idea.
ben_vulpes: pm'd me on the topic of --parents vs. -p and os x
ben_vulpes: which, more idle experiment than an attempt to build a bitcoin on a macos box
ben_vulpes: ^^ asciilifeform
mircea_popescu: could have just voiced the guy
assbot: Logged on 22-08-2015 18:04:17; asciilifeform: is winblows next ?
phf: ben_vulpes: -p doesn't seem to do the same thing on os x as --parents does in gnu cp
mircea_popescu: "for fucks sake, is it necessary to invade every last god forsaken swamp ? is burma next ???"
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45571 @ 0.00070509 = 32.1317 BTC [+]
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: i was not reading messages at the time
mod6: oh this is pretty neat. so I got the mechanics tested & rebased for rel1 -- off of classic patches & genesis.vpatch to be sure. created a "rel1.vpatch" from that. then tested it, worked good on top of extracted genesis.vpatch. then did one of these numbers "cat genesis.vpatch >> rel1-fromair.vpatch ; cat rel1.vpatch >> rel1-fromair.vpatch ; patch -p1 < rel1-fromair.vpatch"
mod6: it's a one shot, straight to rel1 source.
mod6: now just gotta do it for rel2-pre and clean it up a bit and i think i'll have something for you guys to look at.
mircea_popescu: having fun shane ?
mod6: Yes, Sir :]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 95700 @ 0.00071163 = 68.103 BTC [+] {4}
ben_vulpes: new theory: mpex price correlates with stans work on foundation client
mircea_popescu: why not s.nsa for chrissakes
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-08-2015#1248467 << i'd like more explanation of how the fuck this could occur.
assbot: Logged on 22-08-2015 18:26:16; asciilifeform: my present understanding is that the only solution to this is that i intend to negrate anyone who EVER does this.
mircea_popescu: for instance : collision only ?
mircea_popescu: should we need a salt, in the shape of a #sigline for all authors ? something like
mircea_popescu: #Made by MP, the 59675th item so made.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-08-2015#1248485 << well no it's not, since no time we what, rate both ?
assbot: Logged on 22-08-2015 18:32:55; asciilifeform: but it is a handy means of mechanically computing whom to negrate.
assbot: Bernini bust at Getty Museum prompts criminal complaint in Slovakia - LA Times ... ( http://bit.ly/1V1aGd8 )
lobbes: !up lobbesbot
lobbes: !down lobbesbot
punkman: found the art links through this rabbit hole http://www.anonymousswisscollector.com/
assbot: Anonymous Swiss Collector ... ( http://bit.ly/1Kd0hIf )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28500 @ 0.00072326 = 20.6129 BTC [+] {3}
punkman: "What every digital goldbug should be thinking right now: if this can happen with block size, it can happen to the 21m supply cap."
trinque: whether it can happen is by no means decided yet.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45450 @ 0.00071406 = 32.454 BTC [-] {3}
trinque: or if it did on some forkchain, who cares? that one will inflate
punkman: there will be derps herping about 21m cap.
trinque: there surely will
trinque: jurov: I still cant change settings for myself in mailman
mircea_popescu: "this" "can" "happen". except lol mkay.
mircea_popescu: punkman yes of course. just as soon as there's observable value everywhere a horde of shitheads with spoons are moving towards it.
punkman: Szabo: "A retail payment system that makes the consumer worry about two prices instead of one is far inferior to system where merchant pays tx fee."
mircea_popescu: a retail payment system that isn't visa is going to be inferior to a retail payment system that is visa for the foreseeable future.
mircea_popescu: for very obvious reasons only a retard needs delineated.
mircea_popescu: <trinque> or if it did on some forkchain, who cares? that one will inflate << and for a while it will be "just as good as bitcoin" except "better", like all other scamcoins to date. like ethereum, and next before it, and aurora coin before it, and solidcoin before it and so on.
mircea_popescu: ppl really need to to a diff between realsolid's claims in 2012 and gavin's claims in 2015
mircea_popescu: the lulz so produced should fill any lulztreasury.
mircea_popescu: what was the one with the contracts i forgety
mircea_popescu: oh ripple right
mircea_popescu: incidentally asciilifeform and whoever else is privately thinking of reimplementing pgp : one thing i'd dearly love would be the ability to encrypt not to X, but to "l1".
mircea_popescu: i'd seriously consider publishing trilema as such if a way for this existed.
mircea_popescu: sadly it doesn't seem matematically possible to have this miracle.
punkman: mircea_popescu: perfectly possible
mircea_popescu: do tell ?
mircea_popescu: via gossipd, is the closest i can see.
punkman: when multiple recipients, gpg makes a key, encrypts content with that key, the encrypt key separately for each recipient
mircea_popescu: multiple UNSPECIFIED recipients.
mircea_popescu: or as the case may be, specified by reference.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19600 @ 0.00070478 = 13.8137 BTC [-]
punkman: reference to what?
mircea_popescu: l1 in the example
punkman: and it has to keep working when you add or remove people from l1?
punkman: I don't see how that'd be possible
mircea_popescu: gossipd the best i can think of.
punkman: yeah but that's not "encrypt to UNSPECIFIED set of keys"
ben_vulpes: dude autodesk fusion 360 does the DUMBEST POSSIBLE THING for EVERY constraint
ben_vulpes: does actually have a notion of part-level constraints but only "joints"
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6500 @ 0.000705 = 4.5825 BTC [+]
ben_vulpes: which i suppose are nominally the same but raaaaa
ben_vulpes: solve my system of equations goddamnit don't try to intuit what i mean
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6400 @ 0.000705 = 4.512 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35300 @ 0.000705 = 24.8865 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29748 @ 0.000705 = 20.9723 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5400 @ 0.00070478 = 3.8058 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29500 @ 0.00070478 = 20.791 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17799 @ 0.000705 = 12.5483 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12900 @ 0.00071237 = 9.1896 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 72700 @ 0.00071183 = 51.75 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7999 @ 0.00071338 = 5.7063 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34700 @ 0.00071338 = 24.7543 BTC [+]
mod6: dang, so close. i've basically got a rel1.vpatch and a rel2.vpatch all set -- but I'm seeing one strange thing... after doing the one-shot patching of either: rel1.vpatch leaves an empty 'makefile.linux-mingw' and 'qtui.h', while rel2.vpatch leaves an empty 'irc.h' and 'irc.cpp'.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 105295 @ 0.0007071 = 74.4541 BTC [-] {3}
phf: mod6: try running patch with -E ?
mod6: yeah, just did. solves it.
phf: mod6: in fact if you read patch man page, you'll see that us stripping dates basically broke that functionality
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20856 @ 0.00070478 = 14.6989 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16200 @ 0.00070458 = 11.4142 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 54607 @ 0.00070784 = 38.653 BTC [+] {3}
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