Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2015-03-27 | 2015-03-29 → ↓
assbot: 3M Scotchshield Automotive Security Films - Clear and tinted Security films for cars, trucks - 3M Scotchshield ... ( http://bit.ly/1ylohzq )
decimation: lol like the mouse
asciilifeform: exactly the mouse
decimation: I suspect that this is 3m's target market
decimation: ghetto businesses
decimation: 'keeping honest thugs honest'
asciilifeform: not around here. nobody cancelled the traditional pull-down cage
nubbins`: "things changed since, and both GNU and BSD recent versions of tar have support for storing extended attributes. They use incompatible formats"
nubbins`: ^ current headache
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31600 @ 0.00026703 = 8.4381 BTC [+]
asciilifeform: 'It had an airport, railway and dungeons. Most of Pingfang was burnt by the Japanese to destroy evidence but the incinerator where the remains of victims were burnt remains and is still in use as part of a factory.' -- pediwikil0l
jurov: Chillum, I added microphone to the rng mix for similar rpi application
Chillum: how does that work?
Chillum: sound has entropy but it also has a lot of pattern
Chillum: watch out for humming fluorescent lights
Chillum: no amount of debiasing will create entropy from a patterned source
jurov: obv no
jurov: but it's something you can control, such as making suitable noise while the addy is generated
Chillum: sound cards also pick up radio signals
Chillum: the pi in particular has poor sheilding
Chillum: suitable noise?
Chillum: like a burp?
asciilifeform: pick up radio << interestingly my early-1990s 'gravis' stood head and shoulders above modern pc in this respect
assbot: xkcd: I'm So Random ... ( http://bit.ly/1CutsCm )
jurov: crunching paper or cookies bag comes to mind
jurov: or, as i have a window to busy street, i used that
Chillum: I think you over estimate your ability to create entropy with everday objects
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14399 @ 0.00026703 = 3.845 BTC [+]
Chillum: the results will be hard to predict though
assbot: Man vs. Machine. ... ( http://bit.ly/1CutBFV )
jurov: and you think since there will be some hum, any entropy is lost?
Chillum: the debiaser can't tell entropy from pattern
Chillum: it all gets mixed together
jurov: you can
jurov: and that's not what debiaser is doing
jurov: you can listen to the sample before using it, to check whether the noise is there
Chillum: got 50%
Chillum: noise itself is a repeating wave
Chillum: very ordered
Chillum: particularly noises made by objects
Chillum: sound I should say
Chillum: got 100% second try
Chillum: stupid computer
asciilifeform: Chillum: if you can predict wave from turbulent flow (e.g., water faucet) don't settle for small change. aeronautics and naval folks would like a word with you.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 61770 @ 0.00026745 = 16.5204 BTC [+] {2}
Chillum: if you have complete control of your noise source then I suppose it would work
Chillum: but so many noise sources are very orders and all around us. 60hz is all around us
Chillum: s/orders/ordered/
Chillum: Say I start creating variants on a 6hz tone and create keys with that tool. I may just make the same key as someone else who used it near a lamp
Chillum: 60hz
Chillum: or at least reduce my keyspace
asciilifeform: !s xor lemma
assbot: 1 results for 'xor lemma' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=xor+lemma
jurov: yes, if you insist using lamp and nothin else as your audio
asciilifeform: collect for a while.
asciilifeform: why hurry.
assbot: Mycelium Entropy Devices Possibly Tampered With During Transit | Qntra.net ... ( http://bit.ly/1ylrWgE )
asciilifeform: ^ if it had cameratron (see earlier thread) we'd have more to laugh at than a torn box.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [ALC] 12 @ 0.10041665 = 1.205 BTC [+] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 52400 @ 0.00026653 = 13.9662 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: Logged on 27-03-2015 13:13:27; nubbins`: pete_dushenski http://i.imgur.com/z1q3Uc5.png heehee!
nubbins`: WE WANTED SOME FEELS
pete_dushenski: Chillum: solid first day in b-a!
pete_dushenski: nubbins`: AND WE KNEW A GUY WHO PRINTED T-SHIRTS
pete_dushenski: hey, we also know a guy who prints t-shirts, don't we...
nubbins`: but what do we want to FUCK
nubbins`: NODELESSNESS
Chillum: lol
pete_dushenski: SOCIALIST BUREAUCRACY
pete_dushenski: ^i'd wear this t-shirt actually
pete_dushenski: back should read: WITH A SPIKEY CACTUS
Chillum: I have a shirt that says "I read your e-mails"
pete_dushenski: i have one that says "bitinstant"
pete_dushenski: maybe one day i'll add "signs papers" to the back ;)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 60149 @ 0.00026652 = 16.0309 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7532 @ 0.00026652 = 2.0074 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21550 @ 0.00025547 = 5.5054 BTC [-]
pete_dushenski: "Women guaranteed at least 50% of jobs on Victorian government boards" << wd oz, get those numbers up!
pete_dushenski: because quotas based on stupidity will surely yield genius results
pete_dushenski: "we need 300,000 pairs of shoes"
pete_dushenski: and so what if they're all size 6 because there wasn't more leather
Chillum: hey everybody, we're all going to get laid!
pete_dushenski: at laaaast!
pete_dushenski: Monday 12 January 2015 will go down in confectionery history as a bad day. A hurtful day.
pete_dushenski: The day when it was revealed that Cadbury’s Creme Eggs have changed for ever.
pete_dushenski: No longer shall the egg shell be made from delicious Cadbury Dairy Milk chocolate. It will instead be made from disgusting, foul, vomit-inducing “standard cocoa mix chocolate”.
pete_dushenski: ^ok this is lulzy
pete_dushenski: The spokesman said the new chocolate had been tested on “consumers” – industry shorthand for “idiots”, clearly – and had been “found to be the best one for Creme Egg”.
pete_dushenski: Already, this egg announcement is threatening the stability of the UK government. What havoc will this monster wreak next?
pete_dushenski: Are we really going to swallow this bad egg, America? For that is what Cadbury has wrought. A bad egg. And today will for ever be known as a bad day.
pete_dushenski: if a chocolate egg is unsettling the balance, by golly bitcoin barely needs to sneeze in the uk's general direction
assbot: Boston Molasses Disaster - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/1G1fadC )
pete_dushenski: this article has to be a troll.
pete_dushenski: 21 dead!
Chillum: but the egg thing is bad too
pete_dushenski: in what way do you mean ?
mircea_popescu: <Chillum> no amount of debiasing will create entropy from a patterned source << howdja figure that one ?
Chillum: you can't create entropy with an algorithm
mircea_popescu: this is not the same.
mircea_popescu: you can debias with an algorithm.
Chillum: we were talking about sound as a source of data
mircea_popescu: sure. so what's wrong with a very banal von neuman ?
Chillum: you lost me there
pete_dushenski: "The Cadbury Creme Egg was a rare thing in this modern age. Its subtle blend of delicious chocolate and sweet, creamy/cremey yolk was a throwback to the days when chocolatiers took pride in their work." << right. the thing of which 500 mn are made per year, 2/3 of which are consumed in the uk (no wonder they have rotten teeth), is "boutique"
mircea_popescu: there's this algorithm which consists of : flip biased coin twice. if flips agree, one thing. iof they disagree, another thing.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 64050 @ 0.00025547 = 16.3629 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski gotta reposition!
assbot: pr.probability - Proof of Von Neumann's debiasing algorithm - MathOverflow ... ( http://bit.ly/1Nnh6xA )
Chillum: but if the source is a lamp humming 60hz how does the algo filter the pattern from the entropy without diluting the entropy?
Chillum: I know that algo, it removes bunching. It does not remove more complex patterns
mircea_popescu: it doesn't "dilute" anything. if you have 1 bit of entropy per byte, it puts out one byte every eightish bytes.
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: sounds like 'repositioning' the creme egg in the uk is akin to 'repositioning' baby george's nose from his face to his ass.
mircea_popescu: it removes bias, basically.
Chillum: bias is only one type of pattern though
Chillum: there is also periodicity
mircea_popescu: in the case of your lamp, it basically extracts phase transition errors
mircea_popescu: expect ~1/2 bit per phase change
Chillum: my point was that debiasing will not remove periodic patterns
Chillum: that are not next to each other
Chillum: perhaps I am not getting it
mircea_popescu: well im certainly unsure what it is you're saying.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38600 @ 0.0002547 = 9.8314 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: i mean, a biased source is a biased source. do you mean it's not actually biased, but the bits are correlated ?
mircea_popescu: something like "always output 0 if the previous 7th output was 1" or whatever ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 93050 @ 0.00025464 = 23.6943 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 102156 @ 0.00025566 = 26.1172 BTC [+] {2}
pete_dushenski: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=27-03-2015#1075431 << canada idem. cra can be plenty annoying.
assbot: Logged on 27-03-2015 23:32:15; asciilifeform: <mircea_popescu> who the fuck explains their income ? <ben_vulpes> in the states, if they think they have a case they freeze your assets. << aha. sit on the stake until explained, yes.
pete_dushenski: "The CRA has broad powers to investigate suspected tax cheats. In the process of conducting a civil audit to assess how much tax a person really owes, the tax agency can call up bank records, freeze accounts, compel the release of business, payroll and other records, and root through land registries and other government data." << sop
mircea_popescu: it can do whatever the fuck it feels like, with its own data.
mircea_popescu: it can't ask me "hey where you got your money from". unless im a politician and submitted some sort of "this is what my fortune is" statement.
pete_dushenski: it can't ask "what was this line from this person from on your bank statement" ?
pete_dushenski: i was under the impression that every line had to be explained.
mircea_popescu: that's income.
pete_dushenski: a yes, twas my focus
pete_dushenski: you're saying they can't ask "from whence ferrari?"
mircea_popescu: it's not a question of "where it's from", but "why have you not reported it". which ideally you have reported.
mircea_popescu: "how come you have something" != "how come you told us earlier this income is extempt when it clearly isn't"
pete_dushenski: also agreed
pete_dushenski: so income has to be explained, possessions not.
mircea_popescu: you come riding at the border in a flying submarine
mircea_popescu: "do you have title for it ?" "here it is"
mircea_popescu: "how come you got it ?" "fuck you."
pete_dushenski: "your mom gave it to me for my birthday"
mircea_popescu: "but our records don't show us selliung you one"
mircea_popescu: "that might be because you suck."
trinque: "looks like a cocaine running air submarine to me"
pete_dushenski: "keep better records, derp"
mircea_popescu: trinque kinda why sane people don't travel into rogue states without an army.
trinque: mhm
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: trilema.com gives me this: http://imgur.com/0KA8yFc
trinque: in my lifetime the perception that rule of law is either real or honest seems to have been fading
pete_dushenski: but www.trilema.com works just fine.
trinque: dunno that there ever was a time where rule of law did matter here; I'm neither old enough nor educated enough to say
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski hm i see it ?
mircea_popescu: you must have some weird dns issue ? what's the perceived ip ?
trinque: working here
mircea_popescu: who the fuck hijacks blog dns's ? and also... www just goes to plain domain.
trinque: mircea_popescu: it's the https
pete_dushenski: i see 23.235.235.243
pete_dushenski: ^using random look up tool
mircea_popescu: that's right. but yeah, no https svp
pete_dushenski: weird that the browser defaulted to https
pete_dushenski: because i definitely never specified it
trinque: pete_dushenski: got the "ssl everywhere" extension?
pete_dushenski: just flashblock, noscript, adblock
trinque shrugs
trinque: ass gremlins
pete_dushenski: unless one of those bakes in ssl everyfuckingwhere
pete_dushenski: ya, let's chalk it up to ass grems and call it a day
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31882 @ 0.0002682 = 8.5508 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 54818 @ 0.00027047 = 14.8266 BTC [+]
assbot: What a masculinity conference taught me about the state of men | Life and style | The Guardian ... ( http://bit.ly/1IGm4om )
pete_dushenski: is there nothing unworthy of having a conference about ?
pete_dushenski: mebbe "bitcoind pogo afficionados" is near the threshold for obscurity
mircea_popescu: masculinity conferences ahahaha.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34158 @ 0.00026676 = 9.112 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12150 @ 0.00026699 = 3.2439 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: Wikipedia:Underwear rule - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/1IGoiUS )
mircea_popescu: they're not NAKED. they're in their jimbo blessed underwear.
mircea_popescu: such a sad epitome of mediocrity, that thing.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 80950 @ 0.00027047 = 21.8945 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29081 @ 0.00026344 = 7.6611 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 65500 @ 0.00026717 = 17.4996 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 72160 @ 0.00026418 = 19.0632 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 63810 @ 0.00025852 = 16.4962 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 81600 @ 0.00025852 = 21.0952 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 122800 @ 0.00025852 = 31.7463 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4030 @ 0.00025852 = 1.0418 BTC [-]
assbot: Log In - The New York Times ... ( http://bit.ly/19rN6Dl )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28700 @ 0.00026248 = 7.5332 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30744 @ 0.00027081 = 8.3258 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37234 @ 0.00026856 = 9.9996 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 189470 @ 0.00026209 = 49.6582 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20050 @ 0.00025439 = 5.1005 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44865 @ 0.00025894 = 11.6173 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 152335 @ 0.00025302 = 38.5438 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 72365 @ 0.00025006 = 18.0956 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35896 @ 0.00026181 = 9.3979 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 190833 @ 0.00025329 = 48.3361 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 86423 @ 0.00025418 = 21.967 BTC [+]
nubbins`: <+pete_dushenski> No longer shall the egg shell be made from delicious Cadbury Dairy Milk chocolate. It will instead be made from disgusting, foul, vomit-inducing “standard cocoa mix chocolate”. <<< you think that's bad? get this: in the usa, cadbury chocolate is manufactured by /hershey's/. and they don't even get the milk from jersey cows.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36426 @ 0.00024933 = 9.0821 BTC [-] {2}
funkenstein_: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRdZJFfQt8E <-- how to apologize gracefully
assbot: ON A PERSONAL NOTE - Deek Jackson - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1EfJMJh )
nubbins`: "that's such an /american/ thing, hey? 'mentoring'? movin' to a big city and getting yourself a mentor or five?"
nubbins`: lel, my wife
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35777 @ 0.00025418 = 9.0938 BTC [+]
assbot: Please return the red notebook : Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1EfLudD )
nubbins`: "Hey guys I am down at the Texas Bitcoin Conference and someone took my red notebook. There was not a whole lot of valuable info in it but it was a gift. If you saw it tonight at marias taco xpress or know where it wound up please notify me. I thought this was outside bitcoiners' character but I am never surprised in this space"
nubbins`: first comment: "Don't know if this is an actual notebook or a laptop" hahaha
nubbins`: okay, sweet. i've got a 60GB SSD and a 64gb UHS-1 SD card on the way.
nubbins`: curious to see how much the SD chokes
nubbins`: and finally found a good price for purple pogos, two of them on the way
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33868 @ 0.00026964 = 9.1322 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 51800 @ 0.00026988 = 13.9798 BTC [+]
funkenstein_: nubbins what ever happened to that wood carving with your name on it?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34432 @ 0.00026964 = 9.2842 BTC [-]
nubbins`: funkenstein_ the guy wouldn't sell it to me. total fraud.
funkenstein_: lol, that sucks. well at least you got some pictures :)
nubbins`: and an hour-long video
nubbins`: o hey i took everyone's advice and started a blog
nubbins`: BUT NONE OF YOU WILL FIND IT INTERESTING AHAHAHAHAHAH
funkenstein_: lol i'm with you on that one
assbot: madcap tomfoolery | we write, you read. ... ( http://bit.ly/1ymqkmS )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 57400 @ 0.00026465 = 15.1909 BTC [-]
assbot: Biden Worries Legalized Weed In D.C. Will Cut Into His Business | The Onion - America's Finest News Source ... ( http://bit.ly/1ymrnTY )
nubbins`: "Claiming that his operation would be “completely dicked over” by an influx of product, Vice President Joe Biden reportedly became increasingly worried this week that the recent legalization of marijuana in Washington, D.C. could seriously cut into his business."
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17336 @ 0.00026701 = 4.6289 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 110482 @ 0.000272 = 30.0511 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22875 @ 0.00027256 = 6.2348 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44750 @ 0.00026374 = 11.8024 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: abc pant (regular) | men's pants | lululemon athletica ... ( http://bit.ly/1xIDIae )
nubbins`: ABC (anti-ball crushing) engineering gives you and the family jewels room to breathe
assbot: Major publisher retracts 43 scientific papers amid wider fake peer-review scandal - The Washington Post ... ( http://bit.ly/1xIDOig )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 163050 @ 0.00025707 = 41.9153 BTC [-] {4}
nubbins`: a peer review and citation ring
nubbins`: like a web ring, but funner and in meatspace
nubbins`: and with the potential to set back scientific research :S
chetty: <nubbins`> and with the potential to set back scientific research :S// is that even possible?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 61960 @ 0.00026226 = 16.2496 BTC [+]
nubbins`: i'm beginning to think not
assbot: Bitcoin Embassy Amsterdam Founder Booted From Organization, Starts Second Embassy ... ( http://bit.ly/19sugvK )
nubbins`: mega-lel @ lead-in photo
Chillum: haha "screw you guys, I am going to start my own embassy with blackjack and hookers!"
Chillum: "in fact, forget about the embassy!"
PeterL: When does #b-a start our own emabassies?
Chillum: well, they declared a tax so an embassy must be around the corner
chetty: ppfft on embassy, let them come here to the capital
PeterL: hardware b-a is our capital now?
Chillum: capital of bitcoin? Like "B"?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27500 @ 0.00027261 = 7.4968 BTC [+]
chetty: oops capitol ;P -- on theother hand I like the B idea better
Chillum: never seen that spelling before
Chillum: I have been spelling that wrong my what life
Chillum: damn teachers
chetty: thats edumacation these days
PeterL: 'capitol' is specifically the building where the legislature meets, 'capital' is the city
Chillum: I did not know that
nubbins`: soooooo, the pogoplug mobile (non-sata) has solder pads for attaching a SATA connector
nubbins`: and: the heat sink is on the bottom of the board, so you can take off the lid without repercussion
nubbins`: you can see it just south of the middle there
nubbins`: asciilifeform danielpbarron etc ^
Chillum: nice
Chillum: what does it do?
felipelalli: Hi Chillum!
Chillum: Hello
nubbins`: Chillum eventually it'll be running bitcoind
Chillum: Nice. I tried that on a Pi 1 but it chocked
nubbins`: this particular one got its NAND rewritten in a not-fun way, so i'm gonna be adding a serial port
Chillum: Trying now on a Pi 2 and it is going well( at 250,000 block)
nubbins`: Chillum prolly 'cause you're using the latest phoundation bloatware
nubbins`: if you've a mind to try again on your pi1 (and have a cross-compile toolchain set up), i'd suggest http://thebitcoin.foundation/bitcoin-v0_5_3_1-RELEASE.tar.gz
nubbins`: running it on my macbook now, ~ block 180k
Chillum: There is so little information on that site about what the changes actually are or how they have been audited. It seems to have been made in November. It would be a bit like running a custom code version of PGP
Chillum: the security implications are significant
Chillum: is there a changelog?
nubbins`: it's based on the historical 0.5.3
nubbins`: with a bunch of plain unix patches applied
nubbins`: there's a RELEASE NOTES included that lists the patches applied
Chillum: I will keep an eye on the project
nubbins`: but if you're so inclined, you could actually just grab legacy 0.5.3 from your favourite source, and apply the patches listed on the site
nubbins`: they're all small enough that you can fit each one inside your head enough to understand it
Chillum: Glad it is still being worked on. But frankly I would like to see a complete re-write of the client
nubbins`: yeah
nubbins`: well, that's an eventual goal
nubbins`: right now people are just ripping the turds out
Chillum: just like the bittorrent reference client sucked(but did what it needed too, reference the protocol) so does bitcoind
nubbins`: QT support, upnp, etc
felipelalli: I want to buy 1 BTC in Monero. Here is a good place to ask?
Chillum: If anything QT should have nothing to do with bitcoin other than being in a client that accesses the daemon
Chillum: a thin frontend
Chillum: and the API needs to spit out parsed block data on demand so that 3rd party apps can work with the data
nubbins`: yeah
nubbins`: anyway, check out that pastebin, that's the release notes for 0.5.3.1
nubbins`: all the patches are written by people in here, and pgp-signed
Chillum: "Removes OpenSSL Handshake for RPC commands" Isn't that important?
Chillum: can't I just MITM the connection without that?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 67200 @ 0.00027261 = 18.3194 BTC [+]
nubbins`: there's the patch, you tell me 8)
Chillum: I am sure the change makes it run faster which is great for embedded devices that don't need to worry _too_ much about malware on the machine
nubbins`: the idea here is to get a bare-bones reference implementation
nubbins`: it might come with some sharp corners
Chillum: but I am making a security app for a client. Security is a priority over speed.
Chillum: May try that out for my own purposes
nubbins`: asciilifeform would be the one to question about the specifics of it 8)
Chillum: I just need to make a $100 node
Chillum: I can understand it. It is removing a security layer, presumably for speed
Chillum: though all of that can be disabled in config
nubbins`: sure
Chillum: better hope nobody packet sniffs your API access.
nubbins`: this whole thing started with asciilifeform wishing he had bitcoin source code in dead-tree form
Chillum: if it is all internal it should be fine
Chillum: my box needs to expose its API though
Chillum: A great idea for a light node though, if the security situation permits it
Chillum: The page could use more information about the security implications and the expected use case though. Someone might get told it is the latest and greatest and not realize security has been bypassed
Chillum: really SSL is not using that much horse power compared to the other stuff the client does
felipelalli: Why assbot isn't in #bitcoin-otc channel?
Chillum: In my opinion SSL is not a turd to be ripped out
nubbins`: felipelalli why otcbot isn't in #bitcoin-assets channel?
felipelalli: gribble is here.
PeterL: what would assbot do in -otc?
Chillum: sell his ass
felipelalli: I thought assbot also worked as a gribble backup?
Chillum: the bandwidth that goes through the API is so small that the SSL module would be using a negligible amount of resources
PeterL: assbot is a gribble replacement
felipelalli: PeterL: replacement, not backup? hmmm, but if it is a replacement, why it isn't in #bitcoin-otc so?
nubbins`: ah, found it.
assbot: A dangerous idea - serialized delusions ... ( http://bit.ly/19sDtnZ )
PeterL: well, not really replacement, just not a backup
PeterL: they make a more resilient system with two nodes rather than one
assbot: Logged on 08-10-2014 17:48:30; mircea_popescu: how's slotful lust ?
nubbins`: felipelalli here's a question. you bake a cake. why didn't you bake your neighbour one?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 154701 @ 0.00027278 = 42.1993 BTC [+] {2}
felipelalli: I'm sorry.
nubbins`: if -otc wants a new bot, someone there can set one up
nubbins`: i doubt kakobrekla wants to do it, since he doesn't idle in -otc :D
felipelalli: I was asking because gribble is kind of "universal", it is in everywhere, including here, and also in #bitcoin-bra --- I thought assbot was a kind of universal WoT like gribble.
nubbins`: assbot = assets bot
nubbins`: !t m s.mg
assbot: [MPEX:S.MG] 1D: 0 / 0 / 0 (0 shares, 0 BTC), 7D: / / ( shares, BTC), 30D: 0.00009 / 0.00009033 / 0.000091 (15000 shares, 1.36 BTC)
Chillum: ahhh, did not get the name
nubbins`: neither did my wife 8)
Chillum: no honey, I swear the assbot is for strictly business purposes!
nubbins`: every time she'd open my laptop, 5 seconds later an onjoin alert from assbot pops up on screen
nubbins`: ater some weeks: "...what's assbot?"
nubbins`: *after
PeterL: #b-a is special, we get a special bot
thestringpuller: I'm thinking of making a bot to determine uptime of other bots ;)
Chillum: and I will make one to monitor the uptime of yours
mod6: !t m s.mpoe
assbot: [MPEX:S.MPOE] 1D: 0.00024754 / 0.00026065 / 0.00027314 (5037215 shares, 1,312.97 BTC), 7D: 0.0001443 / 0.00024169 / 0.00028483 (19175310 shares, 4,634.62 BTC), 30D: 0.0001443 / 0.00032777 / 0.0004493 (91445718 shares, 29,973.86 BTC)
PeterL: thestringpuller: are you picking on scoopbot? ;)
danielpbarron: height=302648 vs height=217961
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25400 @ 0.00027101 = 6.8837 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 103204 @ 0.00027313 = 28.1881 BTC [+] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 80660 @ 0.00027438 = 22.1315 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11075 @ 0.00027449 = 3.04 BTC [+]
assbot: Future Shop stores closed across Canada, some to become Best Buy - Business - CBC News ... ( http://bit.ly/19sJQri )
nubbins`: i always wondered why there was a Future Shop and a Best Buy less than a block away from each other
nubbins`: ^ quebec city, march 26 2015
nubbins`: lel, protestors have started doxxing the riot police
assbot: Canada cops unleash tear gas at close range on anti-austerity protesters in Quebec - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/19sLxVT )
nubbins`: o, canada!
assbot: Tommy's Blue Valentine - Pogues' Cait O'Riordan on lead vocals - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/19sMnBQ )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16899 @ 0.00027449 = 4.6386 BTC [+]
Chillum: nubbins`: they use pepper spray around here
mircea_popescu: -NickServ- m_p!~matter_pa@49.207.189.76 failed to login to mircea_popescu. There has been 1 failed login attempt since your last successful login. << check it out ?!
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15050 @ 0.00026917 = 4.051 BTC [-] {2}
mod6: huh
mircea_popescu: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Log/2015_March_20#Cogobuy << wikilulz of the day. guy makes article about bn dollar chinese company, is told "This is an encyclopedia .... Not a website advertisement service, There are a million and one ways to advertise your company and this place certainly isn't one of them"
mircea_popescu: apparently wikipedia is keenly aware it exists primarily as an advertising source. just... not for the fucking chinese aaaite ?
assbot: Logged on 28-03-2015 14:56:34; Chillum: In my opinion SSL is not a turd to be ripped out
Chillum: how can we not be aware?
assbot: 240 results for 'ssl' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=ssl
pete_dushenski: ssl provides much security theatre and little apparent security
Chillum: okay
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski seems to be the consensus.
Chillum: I still think my clients would prefer their api keys encrypted
pete_dushenski: ah yes, "what the customer has come to expect"
mircea_popescu: Chillum i suspek you have to do a bunch of log reading to acclimate to the groupthink.
Chillum: I never was very good at group think
Chillum: my own damn opinions keep getting in the way
pete_dushenski: it's a strong brew here ;)
asciilifeform: 'When he was returned to Springfield four years later, after slashing his wrists and writing “American Gulag” in blood on his bedsheets, the doctor wrote, “Considerations that [Powers] has some form of psychosis, thought disorder or mental illness are unfounded.”' << mega-l0l
mircea_popescu: yes, that's the problem there : in order to have your own oppinions you need to study the groupthink.
Chillum: not sure that I do
mircea_popescu: otherwise, you're just passing (to yourself, at least) groupthink as oppinions.
Chillum: most ssl vulnerabilities come from poor cert checking
mircea_popescu: "most stds come from whores"
Chillum: exactly, not a reason to stop fucking
asciilifeform: Chillum: why do you not consider the existence of the master keys a vulnerability ?
mircea_popescu: ssl != fucking in this simile
Chillum: it is for perfect forward secrecy isn't it?
Chillum: how is using plaintext instead of SSL better?
Chillum: security is about layers
mircea_popescu: a turdstack is not a better pancake "because layers".
asciilifeform: Chillum: you may live on a planet where plaintext is the only alternative to ssl, but here on the third rock from sol there are other cryptosystems
mircea_popescu: in most practical scenarios, the only enemy any user will ever encounter is the usg.
mircea_popescu: security solutions that avoid this point are exercises in disinfo.
Chillum: In most practical scenarios the enemy is a person trying to steal bitcoins
mircea_popescu: not a person, but the government of the united states
mircea_popescu: to date, the most successful bitcoin thief
mircea_popescu: (if we credit its usms fake auction sums)
mircea_popescu: now, this entire "yeah the usg is your main enemy but whatever, you don't really want to protect your fucking tweets from them anyway" worked to propose turdstack = pancake.
Chillum: I have worked in computer security for 15 years. While many implementations of SSL host checking are flawed and the hierarchial trust model is a joke the underlying encryption is solid until some learns to find prime factors of large numbers easily.
mircea_popescu: with the advent of bitcoins, things have changed. a stolen bitcoin is a stolen bitcoin no matter how the theft was perpetuated, or under what color of law.
asciilifeform: Chillum: i am the one who cut the ssl idiocy from therealbitcoin's bitcoind. and i did it for reasons which had nothing to do with memory footprint (we did not have an embedded device project yet)
Chillum: I saw the diff
mircea_popescu: Chillum but they do in fact ALL accept verisign master keys.
asciilifeform: Chillum: if you worked in security, did you sleep through 'heartbleed' ?
Chillum: I think it should come with a big "NO SSL" warning next to the download so people are not caught unaware
mats: lol
Chillum: I am aware of heartbleed, an implementation failure
mircea_popescu: wait.what ?!
Chillum: plaintext also has a history of failure
asciilifeform: Chillum: we have a 'read the fucking source before you build and run it' warning, does that count ?
Chillum: I am glad I did
Chillum: read the patches before running it
mircea_popescu: "an implementation failure" ? the time we took out usg's most valuable asset and publicly shot it in the head was "an implementation failure" "?
mircea_popescu: what was tikrit then ?
mats: have you read the openssl code Chillum?
funkenstein_: chillum its not the encryption thats broken its the authentication
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform btw, is the "valued crypto" bit starting to fuzz over there ?
asciilifeform: Chillum: did you also sleep through, e.g., 'stuxnet' having a perfectly legal ssl cert ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: valued ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform didn't you use to bemoan the fact that "no valued crypto stuff is ever leaked" ?
Chillum: so because ssl has had problems it is better to use plain text?
mircea_popescu: maybe it just doesn't look like what you expect is iall.
Chillum: security is layers, that is how the industry works
mats: lol
mircea_popescu: Chillum "i like turd pancakes, it's my groupthink"
mircea_popescu: srsly...
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 0day isn't a cryptodirectorat affair
Chillum: SSL will stop all but the most advanced of attackers
mats: use other crypto
Chillum: okay sure, turd pancakes
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 0days live in the 0day directorat.
Chillum: love em,
Chillum: nom nom nom
mircea_popescu: "ssl will stop all but the actual attacks you will encounter"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you wrote the meta-nsa micromanagement three ring binder too ?
Chillum: actual encounters = some script kiddie running ettercap to intercept your traffic
funkenstein_: Chillum, go listen to moxie marlinspike's talks on the topic
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: no but did read the table of directorates circa 2003 (see log ~6mo ago)
Chillum: not all attackers are people in dark server rooms with ciggerette smoking g men behind them
mircea_popescu: funkenstein_ incidentally, about 5x better than sending someone to go listen to something is transcribing the something so they can read it.
funkenstein_: good point
mircea_popescu: Chillum just all the ones you should practically care about.
mircea_popescu: get your security to where usg fails, you'll do fine.
funkenstein_: nokia was caught capturing all ssl traffic through their networks at one point
mircea_popescu: get it to any other standard, you'll do as bad as all the schmucks on windows
Chillum: It is clear I have stumbled into a religious debate. I have no more interest in changing your mind about SSL than I do with you changing my mind. I will run SSL on my bitcoind API if you don't mind.
funkenstein_: sslsniff is a tool you can use to capture ssl data
funkenstein_: if you are a script kiddie
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 84000 @ 0.00027191 = 22.8404 BTC [+]
asciilifeform: Chillum: you can run feathercoin on tops-10 for all we care
mircea_popescu: Chillum definitely can run whatever the heck you please.
mircea_popescu: but a debate doesn't become religious by declaratory relief from having to think about it.
Chillum: I certainly did not mean to offend anyone by saying SSL is not a turd, if this is a controversial statement I will keep it to myself
funkenstein_: but when and why would bitcoind use ssl?
asciilifeform: Chillum: but if you are interested in actually learning something, try to understand how we reached this particular conclusion
mircea_popescu: offending people is required to participate here i thought.
funkenstein_: all of bitcoin communications are plaintext and public right?
Chillum: asciilifeform: nobody is disputing that SSL has issues, but plaintext is not a better alternative
asciilifeform: let's take it in pieces. plaintext of what ?
mircea_popescu: Chillum have you seen the numerous cases where we pass back and forth "plaintext" over pastebin here ?
mircea_popescu: it starts generally with five dashes.
Chillum: I am going to get some fresh air
funkenstein_: all TXs, block DL requests, block solution reports, node announcements etc.
funkenstein_: are plaintext
mircea_popescu: well.. "plaintext"
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39300 @ 0.00027449 = 10.7875 BTC [+]
Chillum: API
Chillum: along with it api keys
mircea_popescu: i don't think that's a supported usecase as of yet ? mebbe i'm behind here.
asciilifeform: api of what ?
asciilifeform: bitcoind ?
ben_vulpes: 0.5.3.1?
ben_vulpes: has use cases?
asciilifeform: Chillum: were you speaking of a 'hotwallet' ?
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes troll.
ben_vulpes: <Chillum> [14:55] In my opinion SSL is not a turd to be ripped out << dude this is a something like 4 month long project going on here
Chillum: yes I am building a full node on a raspberry pi 2 to be used as a hot wallet
ben_vulpes: there is more context in this channel than dreamt of in all of reddit, Chillum
ben_vulpes: maybe instead of "herp derp i pinions bros" you might start by asking "why did you rip TLS out with such anger and speed?"
Chillum: if you were not using a wallet then I agree SSL is pointless
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes he's not from reddit, he's from wikipedia. pls to not insult teh muggles with misidentification.
asciilifeform: Chillum: if you are presently living in a one-bit universe where the only two choices for hotwallet control are ssl and plaintext - first you have to consider moving out of that universe and into a neighbouring one, where there are other choices
Chillum: I could ssh tunnel
ben_vulpes: Chillum: programmatic BTC remittance?
funkenstein_: i thought ssl was for websites
Chillum: but ssh uses... ssl
asciilifeform: Chillum: even this - improvement. because you control the keys.
chetty: ssl is for fools
mircea_popescu: funkenstein_ ssl is for any application where security theatre is +ev and security itself doesn't matter.
funkenstein_: sslol
mircea_popescu: blogs, guestbooks, whatevs.
Chillum: you can control the keys in ssl. You don't have to use existing authority chains you can make your own
Chillum: in fact trusting verisign or something to authenticate keys is the root of most problems
mircea_popescu: Chillum and also make your own implementation, to not depend on "implementation errors" ?
funkenstein_: for example if i am trying to publish a transaction to the world with my wallet, why would i encrypt it before sending?
asciilifeform: Chillum: try to deploy a self-signed thing commercially and be buried in whines from idiots whose browsers flash red.
assbot: Proof That Mycelium Knows How To Make A Better RNG For Its Entropy Dongle. And Isn’t. | Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski ... ( http://bit.ly/1D0hill )
mircea_popescu: in which case... why are you even using it ?
Chillum: all tools have potential for implementation errors
mircea_popescu: Chillum the problem is we know ssl to be intentionally misimplemented. as you say, on layers.
Chillum: funkenstein_: you don't. Buy when you contact the API and provide your API keys you want that encyrpted
funkenstein_: what wallet has api keys?
Chillum: the cert system is for sure
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski is that actually the guy ? who even made mycellium ?
Chillum: funkenstein_: bitcoin JPSON-RPC
Chillum: JSON
funkenstein_: ah ok now we are getting somewhere
mircea_popescu: oh rassah, i remember this.
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: ayup.
Chillum: also when using the API we will be passing private keys
Chillum: very sensitive information
funkenstein_: sounds like a bad idea
funkenstein_: why would you do that?
Chillum: how would you import a key into a wallet if not with the API?
funkenstein_: importprivkey
Chillum: it is an automated system so no mouse clicks
Chillum: that is an API command
funkenstein_: it is not remote
Chillum: sockets vs tcp, should be secure both ways
mircea_popescu: Chillum generally, the idea being that running a wallet client and a bitcoin node on the same system (let alone in the same program) is beyond idiotic.
funkenstein_: ok if you run a bitcoind on a remote machine.. ssh into it
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11766 @ 0.00027449 = 3.2296 BTC [+]
funkenstein_: then you are using ssl
mircea_popescu: that idiocy was easily excusable in 2009. meanwhile, we just don't do that.
mircea_popescu: and whatever customers may "have come to expect", bitcoin is too valuable to cater to that in breach of security and safety. so, options that are by their nature insecure shouldn't be provided at all.
mircea_popescu: whoever wants them can put them in, like you say above.
ben_vulpes: Chillum: what precisely are you building?
danielpbarron: fodder for a future qntra article
Chillum: just a bitcoind node with a wallet and a firewall and an API
mircea_popescu: all on one computer ?
Chillum: if the built in API is really that insecure I suppose I can write an access layer
mircea_popescu: single machine paradigm is flawed for this application.
Chillum: what exactly does more than one computer get me?
ben_vulpes: the thing calling into your wallet is also an attack point
mircea_popescu: separation of red and black.
mod6: plz go read 1+ year of logs + trilima
mod6: *trilema
mircea_popescu: in other news,
mircea_popescu: Hope you are doing well. I am a client services manager here at AdMedia. I was wondering if there might be a possible partnership opportunity between our two companies. We have previously and recently ran campaigns for trilema.com via third party networks. We wanted to discuss the opportunity of working directly
mircea_popescu is pretty fucking impressed with admedia atm.
Chillum: So if I understand correctly SSL was removed because if I need SSL I am doing it wrong?
mircea_popescu: exactly.
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: because they can spell and write their own e-mails ?
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski and read their own dbs and advanced shit like that!
Chillum: May I suggest that you describe your best practices so that people running this SSL free code will know how to not do it wrong?
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: holy cramoly!
Chillum: I would love to read an essay describing the sort of infractructure you find safe
assbot: Logged on 28-03-2015 16:31:34; mod6: plz go read 1+ year of logs + trilima
mircea_popescu: not that i've (and others) not said the same thingee.
Chillum: I am interested in other ideas, it is just a bit hard to understand what your best practices are
Chillum: I will read _some_ of the logs later
assbot: How to airgap. A practical guide. pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/19ajNp3 )
mircea_popescu: not like there's any rush. and generally, the stuff you're used to worrying about holds no sway here. so.. .jus relax an' enjoy.
ben_vulpes: 0.5.3.1 is not for use in 'anger'.
Chillum: avoiding the need for encryption on the API through sound security practices is one thing. Recommending something without encryption without describing those practices is a recipe for disaster.
ben_vulpes: if you *want* to run it, and *can* read the provided documentation, do so.
ben_vulpes: if you haven't, stop in here and expose your ignorance for all.
mircea_popescu: Chillum yeah. like, you know, how the bitcoin wallets were plaintext for... i dunno, 3years or so.
asciilifeform: Chillum: at present there is no chance of a 'civilian' stumbling upon 0.5.3.1 and putting it to use
ben_vulpes: Chillum: some day i'd like this thing to not even have a json/rpc api.
Chillum: It was recommended to me by two people here before I read the patches
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this may or may not be true, upon contemplation.
mircea_popescu: mod6 ben_vulpes you think some warnings should be brewed maybe ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: would be hilarious if someone found, built, then cried
Chillum: air-gap is not an option for me, it needs to be automated
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: but i don't expect to see this
ben_vulpes: me neither.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform he said it just happened ?
asciilifeform: nah he read the patches and upchucked
mircea_popescu: someone else ?
Chillum: though it will use a cold-wallet reserve system to minimize exposure
ben_vulpes: perhaps throw an error on boot if someone tries to use the tls flags.
mircea_popescu: Chillum : better plan, sign your txn off the hot box, import them there through private connection.
Chillum: again, needs to be automated
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19700 @ 0.00027545 = 5.4264 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes dunno how best implemented, but he raises a good point we're prone to neglect : as exposure increases, which it necessarily will,
Chillum: i see
Chillum: was going to use firewall enforced vpn
mircea_popescu: the number of random people trying random things will exponential
mircea_popescu: that may actually work.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: feel free to lift the ascii jolly roger from http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-January/000038.html for the warning banner...
asciilifeform: if you like
ben_vulpes: chill
Chillum: you guys should make a white paper
mircea_popescu: firewalls are finnicy to setup, but once correctly setup on a linux box they're reliable.
ben_vulpes: Chillum: and if the web host talking to the API gets compromised?
asciilifeform: Chillum: we do human skin parchments instead of white papers here.
ben_vulpes: <Chillum> you guys should make a white paper << myeah. someday, i'm sure.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes it'd be one way nah ? from his wallet to the node. not the other way.
nubbins`: mircea_popescu as seen in my latest submit: "Follow these instructions at your own peril, and upon risk of divestment, dismemberment, or death."
mircea_popescu: nubbins` too cutsy to be effectual imo, but hey.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: well something has to poke the wallet in an automated fashion
nubbins`: all of those things are possible and if you press alf he'll admit that he expects all three
ben_vulpes: because he's building a robo-remitter?!
Chillum: ben_vulpes: That is always a risk with a hot wallet, but if the system needs to be automated then what is the alternative?
Chillum: If the solution being offered is an air-gap then that only works in certain scenarios
mircea_popescu: Chillum not to pry into your soul here, but mind describing the cause of the need for automation ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 53800 @ 0.00027548 = 14.8208 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: an airgap is merely a golden standard BECAUSE it disallows automation. there's ipso definitio no automated airgap.
Chillum: Security is easy if you have to manually approve each and every transaction
ben_vulpes: Chillum:
mircea_popescu: not so easy and quite expensive, which is why alternatives are always tempting. but go on ?
ben_vulpes: what are you building.
Chillum: most companies want tools that work without their intervention
asciilifeform: (note to n00bs - this is a good place to point out that the 'air' in an airgap is more than physical concept: i.e. a machine controlled via radio in real time is not 'airgapped')
mircea_popescu: most people want trees that shit prune juice too.
ben_vulpes: pre-fermented at that
Chillum: consider the use case of a service that rents say minecraft servers by the hour. The user need to be able to establish a balance and later withdraw their balance when they are done in a reasonable amount of time
asciilifeform believes that 'meatgap' would be a more descriptive term for the concept
Chillum: the owner relies on it being low maintenance in order for it to be profitable
ben_vulpes: Chillum: 2 points:
Chillum: which is very common in internet based companies
mircea_popescu: Chillum completely unrelated : do you have any fucking idea how desired a bitcoin host is here ?
ben_vulpes: 1) what are you building
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes he basically wants trilema credits for whatever.
ben_vulpes: 2) if it's that low margin, why bother in the first place?
Chillum: mircea_popescu: I bet.
mircea_popescu: Chillum i've been trying to shoehorn random people into doing it since... omgerd 2013.
Chillum: you do realize that some of the most successful internet companies are low margin right?
mircea_popescu: ;;later tell pinkposixpxe hai!
gribble: The operation succeeded.
Chillum: well the issue with bitcoin hosting is lack of accountability. The guy who is renting the servers to the bitcoin anon will get the abuse complaints when they spam
mircea_popescu: nah, all wot based.
mircea_popescu: you only work with !rated ppls.
Chillum: which is why software as a service is a better option
Chillum: well mircea I can write a wrapper for AWS that accepts bitcoins from people on a whitelist
Chillum: it will be a lot of work to do it securely though
mircea_popescu: most everyone here can spin an aws in ten minutes.
Chillum: but if there is demand and a willingness to pay a reasonable markup
mircea_popescu: the idea is to get bare metal.
asciilifeform: Chillum: can't speak for others but i in particular am interested specifically in migrating -from- aws
asciilifeform: aws is the 'mcdonalds' of hosting.
Chillum: I could offer raspberry pis, but you would need to VPN your own internet connection to them, I don't want bitcoin/irc dudes using my home internet lulz
assbot: waifu.xyz - g ... ( http://bit.ly/1D0pCBq )
Chillum: I got 5 Pi 2s and 10 more on the way
mircea_popescu: did i post the crates of pogos anywhere or not yet ?
asciilifeform: Chillum: pretty much everyone reading this has fiber to the grounds and a crate of small computers, just as happenstance
ben_vulpes: no pics, no mircea_popescu
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: your crate or mine
asciilifeform: mine - was here
mircea_popescu: ok, he posted his, good enuff.
Chillum: having a crate of computers is great. Having them all work on the same problem at the same time is awesome
asciilifeform: but if mircea_popescu has a railroad car it'll be great for morale & lulz
mircea_popescu: Chillum they're for fixing the bitcoin nodes hole.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i dun really has that many, no.
Chillum: well you would want network diversity for that
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if you recall, nubbins` did discovere where to get if you felt like it.
mircea_popescu: exactly.
Chillum: release a screensaver that does it lol, worked for SETI
mircea_popescu: Chillum this is not half a bad idea, actually.
asciilifeform: a 30G++++ screen saver ?
asciilifeform: and reintroduction of winblows? ugh.
Chillum: but it has to look cool, do something like: http://www.bitlisten.com/
assbot: BitListen - Bitcoin Transaction Visualizer ... ( http://bit.ly/1D0qztE )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform run it through cygwin :D
mircea_popescu: Chillum i was thinking, get the naked ladies to do specials.
asciilifeform: l0l lusers will install cygwin runtime? aha, sure.
nubbins`: heeeeeh
mircea_popescu: windows people. will install anything.
Chillum: most resource expensive screensaver EVER
asciilifeform once had a full-blown build of xorg and other userland under cygwin, when worked in usg and forced to use winblows box
mircea_popescu: Chillum so what, let intel do 10nm!
Chillum: Instead of renting servers send cheap computers to volunteers for free. Will be cheaper in the long run
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if you recall, his argument 10 minutes ago stated correctly that "people will install anything at any time for any reason
Chillum: just make sure you remove the bootloader so they can't reflash it
mircea_popescu: but usually for no reason at all."
Chillum: otherwise people will volunteer for free hardware
mircea_popescu: Chillum you gotta understand how the wot works.
Chillum: it works great, but only to a certain scale
mircea_popescu: and you know this because...
Chillum: well can the WoT give you 20,000 volunteers if you needed them?
mircea_popescu: democracy works great but only on a certain scale.
Chillum: agreed
mircea_popescu: the wot works perfectly well on any scale larger than where a democracy breaks down
mircea_popescu: if you need 20k volunteers you're doing it wrong.
mircea_popescu: this is sparta, not rome.
Chillum: okay fair enough. I dont' know what scale you are working on
Chillum: I think big
mircea_popescu: no, you don't. you just imagine you do.
Chillum: ah I will reflect on that
assbot: Last 3 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/2GD3RS4.txt )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 48382 @ 0.00027576 = 13.3418 BTC [+]
Chillum: lol
nubbins`: Chillum, you're thicker-skinned than most
mircea_popescu: than most whats ?
nubbins`: others 8)
Chillum: I have been an admin on wikipedia for 8 years, the thin skinned ones die out
mircea_popescu: nubbins` formulate plan : only invite potheads to b-a. nubbins` looks upon results : good good goood!
Chillum: we deal with flat earthers on a daily basis
nubbins`: lel. i can imagine.
mircea_popescu: srsly ?!
mircea_popescu: that thing still goes ?
Chillum: oh ya
mircea_popescu: dude how the fuck.
Chillum: creationists, flat earthers, anti-vacers, young earthers
mircea_popescu: i mean, sa kruger going "impossible" i can see. it was early.
Chillum: crazy people all day long
mircea_popescu: but by now ? how the fuck would you think it's flat. "because it looks flat from space" ?
nubbins`: the satellite launches are hoaxes
mircea_popescu: even fucking romania launched one!
Chillum: it involved sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling "I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!"
nubbins`: those dots you see moving, unblinking, across the sky 20x a night are the lizards
Chillum: oh ya the lizards
Chillum: we hear from the people trying to reveal the truth about the lizards a lot
mircea_popescu: Chillum i understand how the stupidity defends itself - like any other. what encuriouses me is... how does it get born.
Chillum: and of course the jews did 911
mircea_popescu: !s lizard hitler
assbot: 47 results for 'lizard hitler' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=lizard+hitler
mircea_popescu: of course the jews did 911
nubbins`: hahahaha
Chillum: It was not born, ignorance predates knowledge
mircea_popescu: !ban Chillum jews did 911 denier
Chillum: don't quote me out of context lol
mircea_popescu: (the funniest thing about this is that not having read the logs, he can't help but wonder about it lol)
nubbins`: mircea_popescu +1
nubbins`: "47 results for lizard hitler" my sides
ben_vulpes: #ba is tops on my google for lizard hitler
mircea_popescu: nubbins` i mostly blame alf
ben_vulpes: who sez they don't use algos anymore, eh?
ben_vulpes: someday we'll be tops for any string starting with turd as well
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes they still use algorithmics for the outskirts. which is why the "long tail" revolution happened in seo.
mircea_popescu: but otherwise, it's a handcrafted list.
ben_vulpes: and we can blame alfie for that too
mircea_popescu: like the nyt review of books, but for websites.
ben_vulpes: yeah, let's bring back the directories!
ben_vulpes: oh man.
Chillum: a hand crafted index of the internet?
nubbins`: mircea_popescu it's not his fault that conspiracy theory concepts are good metaphors for the actual missed points
mircea_popescu: so stupid right ?
ben_vulpes: now i want a directory!
mircea_popescu: nubbins` blame does not attach to fault, blame attaches to agency.
nubbins`: OH HO
nubbins`: chew on that
mircea_popescu: funkenstein_ ftr, since im here my brain has decided to multivocalize all j's as h's too, for good measure. and as you logged in it just proposed "hosed" as a possible interpretation of your user.
mircea_popescu: so i guess now you're hosed.
funkenstein_: actually that is how that username was born :)
mircea_popescu: fuck me ?! srsly ?
funkenstein_: somebody was talking about a "hosed bus" when i needed to pick one
funkenstein_: sounds like you are becoming a real porteno
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9600 @ 0.00027576 = 2.6473 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes that's nothing, he's permeating harem speech. yest i was waffling over whether to go to icecream place, girl goes "well not like we gotta go and get the imensatron necessarily". ie, we could get a smaller tub. but no - imensaTRON!!1
ben_vulpes: by the way what is up with billinghurst
mircea_popescu: what about it ?
ben_vulpes: it's the only word where the l's are pronounced?
mircea_popescu: speaking of which, anyone care to guess the name of the street my office's on ? its a food item.
mircea_popescu: ahahaha bishinghurst
ben_vulpes: > get in cab
funkenstein_: calle de lomo
ben_vulpes: > "bishinghurst"
mircea_popescu: dude. i been despising their local accent and doing the proper y = ll thing, but im totally going to say it as bishinghurst
ben_vulpes: > two minutes of confusion
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: glhf
ben_vulpes: i'd like to see you do this to some poor cabbie
mircea_popescu: good long hard fucking ?
ben_vulpes: lol no are you trying to intuit from context again?!
mircea_popescu: cuntext but yes.
ben_vulpes: "good luck have fun"
mircea_popescu: mine's better and will overtake yours
mircea_popescu: by having more childrens.
ben_vulpes: somehow i doubt you're going to have more children than me
mircea_popescu: strawman. the EXPRESSION is. not me.
ben_vulpes: YOUR LINE DIES WITH YOU
mircea_popescu: dude your line's not even been to any masculinity conferences.
mircea_popescu: (and no, my office is on pringles st.)
ben_vulpes: i was actually musing on the absence of any leads-only tango practicas in town
danielpbarron: scam! you said it was a food.. :p
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes what's that ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 49813 @ 0.00027608 = 13.7524 BTC [+] {2}
ben_vulpes: nominally, at one point in history, you weren't allowed to lead at a milonga until you'd been more or less given permission from the other leads in town.
mircea_popescu: > If you saw it tonight at marias taco xpress
mircea_popescu: >Texas Bitcoin Conference
mircea_popescu: wtf srsly ?
ben_vulpes: first, you had to learn to lead by following at the leads practicas, then they'd teach you to lead, then eventually you'd get to go to the milongas.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes their wot died under consumerismo-socialism & peron.
ben_vulpes: yes i know
mircea_popescu: "but i like to kvetch"
ben_vulpes: musing!
mircea_popescu: http://log1.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-03-2015#1076548 << tbh i suspect it's a sexual dysfunction.
assbot: Logged on 28-03-2015 11:54:19; nubbins`: "that's such an /american/ thing, hey? 'mentoring'? movin' to a big city and getting yourself a mentor or five?"
ben_vulpes: anyways, point is that it's difficult to learn to lead from followers.
mircea_popescu: you don't say!
ben_vulpes: tautological almost :P
ben_vulpes: and no leaders are interested in growing *more* leaders.
ben_vulpes: well, very few.
mircea_popescu: http://log1.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-03-2015#1076568 << am i the only one who finds the fact that nubbins` had to put FOUR excuses to doing a blog in the blog fucking domain hysterical ?
assbot: Logged on 28-03-2015 13:08:43; nubbins`: but just in case: http://madcaptomfoolery.ca
mircea_popescu: yo nubsy it's ok baby. a blog is not unlike a penis.
mircea_popescu: no need to apologize.
mircea_popescu: also it doesn't load.
mircea_popescu: "Sat across from a serious man. He’s sunken himself into the soft underbelly of a woman. A fox, true 1960 pussy. Her silver hair knotted in a fat bun, loose upon her neck. "
mircea_popescu: notbad.jpg
assbot: madcap tomfoolery | we write, you read. ... ( http://bit.ly/1D0AWO2 )
mircea_popescu: http://log1.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-03-2015#1076586 << also a criminal entreprise, but something tells me tough on his bosses enemies bharara isn't about to bust out the rico and send>40 faux usg academics up the river for 20+ eyars a head.
assbot: Logged on 28-03-2015 13:41:23; nubbins`: like a web ring, but funner and in meatspace
mircea_popescu: now on the other hand if they happened to you know, do that unspeakable crime aaron schwartz kid's guilty of...
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18350 @ 0.00027656 = 5.0749 BTC [+]
trinque: +Chillum | I can understand it. It is removing a security layer, presumably for speed << the whole RPC thing will likely come out, not for speed but for blowtorching complexity
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron danke. it loaded eventually.
Chillum: trinque: yes I came to understand that
trinque: ah just reading logs :)
Chillum: makes a lot of sense in a cold wallet system
Chillum: air-gapped that is
mircea_popescu: ;;later tell bingoboingo http://log1.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-03-2015#1076591 << mebbe qntra worthy, if linked with discussion of "buenos aires embassy" ? dunno.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
nubbins`: angle of who the fuck declares themselves an ambassador of btc anyway
mircea_popescu: "clearly nobody actually associated".
mircea_popescu: long history of this schmuckerdom, who was that polyanna something chick that was doing the "Bitcoin chamber of commerce" ?
mircea_popescu: for some reason i have trouble with her name.
mircea_popescu: http://log1.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-03-2015#1076596 << i dun think we want one, but if you wish to be the b-a ambassador into the midwest... that and india possibly the only places that need an embassy from la serenissima. and candi's got the india.
assbot: Logged on 28-03-2015 14:10:38; PeterL: When does #b-a start our own emabassies?
assbot: Logged on 28-03-2015 14:23:56; Chillum: I did not know that
mircea_popescu: nubbins` you ever tried soldering a sata on see what happens ?
nubbins`: sadly no connector handy, but i'm definitely putting a pin in it for later.
mircea_popescu: (odds are the pads are just there because mass produced item)
nubbins`: altho it looks like they're connected to traces.
mircea_popescu: but there's a vague possibility whole shebang's there and disabled in software
nubbins`: there's no mounting holes on this pcb for the top usb port, either, so it's entirely possible the mobile and series4 have different pcbs
mircea_popescu: http://log1.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-03-2015#1076637 << happens to be the eventual goal of the foundation.
assbot: Logged on 28-03-2015 14:43:57; Chillum: Glad it is still being worked on. But frankly I would like to see a complete re-write of the client
nubbins`: yeah, they're different boards
mircea_popescu: consensus is the sort of thing in bitcoind is probably a lead cause of abortion, lead poisoning, fetal alcohol syndrome and the woes of the rings of saturn
nubbins`: so... shrug. maybe it's like the rtc -- there for the user to add
trinque: en_vulpes | has use cases? << ehehehe one would hope eventually!
mircea_popescu: dude check it out, someone who remembers how bad bittorrent was originally.
mircea_popescu: ftr, for the new souls : torrents were originally dismissed on the strength of how bad the shit / code was originally, as "this'll never work"
mircea_popescu: felipelalli prolly ask fluffypony i think he's the only one here keeping an eye on monero.
Chillum: lol I remember how bad trading files with IRC and FTP was, then I how bad bittorrent was
nubbins`: oh, and guess who just un-bricked their pogo? http://imgur.com/dR3tx16 http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=dmveVt3N
Chillum: usenet for the win!
fluffypony: felipelalli: I can arrange an OTC buy if you need, else Poloniex / Bittrex
fluffypony: well done nubbins`
mircea_popescu: Chillum didja also know naggum ?
Chillum: I remember when people first started making mp3s
Chillum: did not know naggum
nubbins`: fluffypony ty :D
fluffypony: Chillum: I remember ripping CDs to MP3s at real time speed
Chillum: I remember when my apple IIgs was pretty neato
mircea_popescu: nubbins` ain't fixing something great ? almost better than having made it in the first place!
Chillum: I rocked the vic20
fluffypony: through a fake microphone driver
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 71650 @ 0.00027721 = 19.8621 BTC [+] {3}
nubbins`: wouldja believe this is the first piece of kit i've modded that /isn't/ a synthesizer?
Chillum: it has a cassette tape drive
mircea_popescu: i would, yes.
Chillum: you had to press play or record to load or save a file
mircea_popescu: Chillum : be-beep beee-dfkljgkjdfhgkjhkgher
fluffypony: aaah good old Commodore 64 days
Chillum: yes
Chillum: you know the sound
fluffypony: time to save my game...*presses record on the tape player*
mircea_popescu: everyone here is very old.
mircea_popescu: for we are all dragons.
Chillum: similar to but different than a 300 baud modem
mircea_popescu: yeah same principle.
funkenstein_: Chillum, what kind of chip you have in there, a Dorrito?
asciilifeform: but no - imensaTRON!!1 << l0l
Chillum: I used to pick up pager signals with my scanner and decode them through my sound card.
Chillum: lol
Chillum: was just listening to that funkenstein
asciilifeform did this to the folks he works with in meatspace, also to some extent
mircea_popescu: you're like a weed.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26036 @ 0.00027868 = 7.2557 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: a weed in lizard hitler's bunker.
asciilifeform speaking to pet is most of the way unintelligible to bystanders, for instance
mircea_popescu: this is how it should be.
mircea_popescu: (twist : alf speaks iidish at home)
Chillum: I smoke weed for breakfast!
asciilifeform: send>40 faux usg academics up the river for 20+ eyars << weren't they chinese? or is this a different set of hucksters this time
Chillum: god bless the grass that grows between the cracks
mircea_popescu: seems a new set, haven't dug.
mircea_popescu: I KNEW nubbins` is trying to stuff the weed ballot.
asciilifeform: tried soldering a sata on see what happens ? << it is quite likely missing some of the passives too
mircea_popescu: 99%, but let him have fun. the 1% is there.
asciilifeform: nubbins`: http://imgur.com/dR3tx16 << technically it wasn't really -bricked- unless you had to do the boot-via-xmodem thing
asciilifeform: (i.e. internal flash totally b0rked including uboot)
mircea_popescu: http://log1.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-03-2015#1076664 << Chillum currently we're using the pogos for ~19 dollar nodes.
assbot: Logged on 28-03-2015 14:50:26; Chillum: I just need to make a $100 node
mircea_popescu: you should look into that.
nubbins`: yeah, i'm being loose w/ words
nubbins`: i actually just mistakenly wiped the bootcmd env variable
danielpbarron: 19 USD + storage device
mircea_popescu: "o what's this ? fuck it, don't need it. uh... wait."
asciilifeform: <nubbins`> wouldja believe this is the first piece of kit i've modded that /isn't/ a synthesizer? << notice the unpopulated row of pins at bottom end of pcb? those are gpio's and you can attach random strange to them
Chillum: interesting
nubbins`: did indeed!
mircea_popescu: buy a pogo try it out, look into the past week's log it's full of people working on it, danielpbarron posted some excellent guides.
nubbins`: i'll be back in 6 months with this wired into a home automation system
assbot: Parallel Port SID6581 Interface ... ( http://bit.ly/1NoIGui )
nubbins`: lighting levels tied to network hashrate
nubbins`: and if you're really interested, http://danielpbarron.com/pogo/notes.html
danielpbarron: the notes page is a really raw collection of links and commands
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron srsly why not a blog format ?
mircea_popescu: how are people to find one from the other ?
Chillum: danielpbarron: so where do I get one?
danielpbarron: the root directory
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27317 @ 0.00027868 = 7.6127 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron and as you keep writing ?
danielpbarron: Chillum, i've been getting them from amazon
danielpbarron: i keep adding to those files
Chillum goes to look on ebay
trinque: ben_vulpes | now i want a directory! << here comes the #b-a gopher site
asciilifeform: make a $100 node << 100 buys a pogo and a reasonable solid state sata
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron if you're specifically making an experiment about it (which means, you've modeled it, doing things deliberately to observe effects etc) i can see it.
mircea_popescu: otherwise... the consensus seems to be blog.
trinque: god damn those were good logs
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i dunno anyone that doesn't have a "dead" old sata laying around.
mircea_popescu: but sure, if you're buying a new disk, takes you to 100ish
danielpbarron: what does everyone else do for blogging?
trinque: danielpbarron: there's neutering wordpress or using some static site generator
mircea_popescu: wp, which sucks, or else ben_vulpes' homeroll thing, which sucks.
mircea_popescu: they suck for different reasons tho.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: old buggered mechanical satas aren't quite as nice, but certainly usable. the thing definitely sources sufficient amps for them
asciilifeform: (vendor's 24W brick)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6950 @ 0.00028053 = 1.9497 BTC [+]
danielpbarron: my solid state sata is at 24 gigs, the 5400 rpm one is at 6.5 gigs
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: no other differences ?
danielpbarron: it seems to freeze up more often
asciilifeform: i meant, in the machines
trinque: what's the latest compile 0.5.3.1 for pogo doc, if any?
trinque: meanwhile I'll get cross compiling tooling going
mircea_popescu: actual chain + index ~39.5 gb atm
asciilifeform: trinque: danielpbarron's
asciilifeform: trinque: by all means build cross-compiler for your system, but when i put the buildroot thing up it will carry its own
mircea_popescu: blkindex0016 almost full, which brings the following issue :
mircea_popescu: what happens once we're over 10k x 2gb = 20tb of blockchain ?
danielpbarron: i don't have a doc for 0.5.3.1 unless it counts to have one for the pre-release patching of 0.5.3
asciilifeform: (buildroot demands nothing but your platform's native gcc and takes it from there until the bitter end, the actual armv5 images)
mircea_popescu: y2k for btc!
trinque: asciilifeform: I've got enough arm turdboards lying around to justify it
Chillum: amazon canada sucks
asciilifeform: trinque: note that each such board is likely wanting its own gcc
danielpbarron: i need to reformat my laptop.. AGAIN
asciilifeform: arm is notoriously fragmented into incompatible turddoms
trinque: asciilifeform: ah ok, other than this I have pis
mircea_popescu: Chillum if you absolutely can't find one i'll ok you to get one from our warehouse at dpb
trinque: I'll just get both going, probably just some eselect thing in gentoo right?
asciilifeform: pi1 was armv6, pi2 - armv7
Chillum: I am going to read up on them first. Thanks
danielpbarron: it's unlikely i can ship it cheaper than amazon
danielpbarron: if he's just getting 1
trinque: got both
Chillum: I will either want 0 or 10+, I rarely get 1 of any small computer
Chillum: they work better in little tribes
danielpbarron: i think 18 fit nicely in a crate
Chillum: I have a lot of Pi 2s to setup right now. I will look into the pogos though
trinque: danielpbarron: mine arrived from amazon in 4 days with standard shipping, ymmv
nubbins`: Chillum goes to look on ebay <<< cheaper on amazon, almost certainly
nubbins`: <+asciilifeform> make a $100 node << 100 buys a pogo and a reasonable solid state sata <<< 64gb on the way, should get me through to the summer at least
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron yeah, which is why i said.
mircea_popescu: ;;calc 20 * 6 * 24
gribble: 2880
mircea_popescu: 20 days of it at any rate.
mircea_popescu: o wait i forgot, 20mb won't be used, it just needs to be there to not be used. right right.
Chillum: nubbins`: amazon canada sucks. $40, $30 on ebay
asciilifeform: https://octopart.com/search?q=marvell%20%2088F6192 << interestingly, it's either extinct or octo (a paul graham co.!) lies, lies.
assbot: marvell 88F6192 - Octopart ... ( http://bit.ly/1D0Oqtd )
nubbins`: Chillum agreed. amazon usa, however...
danielpbarron: !up Bagels7
Chillum: I used to work for an Amazon company
Chillum: using massive arrays of cloud computers to reprice books as fast as possible compared to the market
asciilifeform was idly toying with determining what pogotron might actually cost to make in quantity
nubbins`: you can get used pogo (purple logo, w/ sata) for $15usd on amazon, used
Chillum: we would get two customer who wanted their price to be 1 cent below everyone else and we tried to explain that since they are not the only person doing it that they would drop to a penny
nubbins`: asciilifeform ++
Chillum: they insisted
asciilifeform: 'marvell' per se doesn't turn up much either.
Chillum: then complained when it dropped to a penny
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i would suspect octo is just badly supplied.
asciilifeform: it normally has pretty accurate figures
mircea_popescu: the golden standard on ic sourcing is not some derpy valley website.
mircea_popescu: does it ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it's a meta search
nubbins`: asciilifeform sort of the thing where you need a foot in the door before they'll even price it out for you
asciilifeform: nubbins`: this is my working hypothesis, marvell doesn't sell cut-tape
asciilifeform: (term of art)
asciilifeform: the other day i checked out what other system-on-chips might be cut-tapeable and have integrates sata, found nothing
asciilifeform: but that was just a hour's dig.
mircea_popescu: Chillum excellent case study in why "customer getting what it tihinks it wants" is no business plan.
mircea_popescu: another excellent case study, the ghetto butt lifts.
mircea_popescu: i could go on.
punkman: asciilifeform: maybe an Allwinner chip?
nubbins`: yeah, banana cream pi
asciilifeform: punkman: too heavy
nubbins`: or w/e the fuck
asciilifeform: and i fucking hate bga
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i can see the case for this not being that commodified just yet. but imo unavoidable, with the trend towards it of which raspberry is just a reflection.
punkman: asciilifeform: what's heavy?
Chillum: mircea_popescu: they hire me as a developer, not a consultant
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: as you can probably guess, i won't be making it just yet.
nubbins`: asciilifeform if you get in contact w/ marvell, you might suss out some contacts
punkman: there are kirkwoods without BGA?
Chillum: I could refuse on principal, someone else will make it
mircea_popescu: Chillum your loss, pay sucks, job's not different.
asciilifeform: nubbins`: i am not interested in vendors who need a sexual relationship just to source parts for prototype.
mircea_popescu: principle.
mircea_popescu: principal is what you owe on a loan.
Chillum: I do alright
nubbins`: hey, your life
Chillum: I have created some truly stupid shit for people
nubbins`: it's not like i don't contact Franmar when i want to find out where to buy bean-e-doo
Chillum: you can't cure stupid
mircea_popescu: you can not make more tho.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform y u no sexual relationsheeps!
Chillum: freedom is the freedom to make mistakes. If people want to pay for something I will give it to them. I give free advice, it is rarely taken
Chillum: within reason of course
mircea_popescu: i can see that.
mircea_popescu: but the freedom to make mistakes is a luxury not a freedom.
assbot: Marvell - Embedded Processors - Kirkwood Series ... ( http://bit.ly/1NoLCqT )
Chillum: frankly if I told my clients that they need to use an air-gap they would tell that it does not fit their business model. They would be right
asciilifeform: (that's usually how you get cut-tapes from vendors who don't sell'em)
Chillum: mircea_popescu: without the freedom to make mistakes you are forever under the tyranny of those who are "correct"
asciilifeform: Chillum: then you need new clients
mircea_popescu: http://log1.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-03-2015#1076683 << back-up is probably more adequate a description.
assbot: Logged on 28-03-2015 14:58:02; PeterL: assbot is a gribble replacement
Chillum: we need random bad ideas
Chillum: sometimes they turn out to be good ideas
asciilifeform: Chillum: and if you can't get those, new line of work
mircea_popescu: and it's not in -otc for the reason any bot is not in any channel : admin didn't ask for it.
mircea_popescu: (we asked for gribble here long ago, which is how it got to be here)
mircea_popescu: Chillum it's a horrible way to exploit kids, really.
mircea_popescu: i'd much rather see honest sexual slavery than this bs "random bad ideas" exploitation.
Chillum: good to know that
asciilifeform: marvell registered in bermuda, l0l
asciilifeform: anyway -it doesn't have to be a marvell-
asciilifeform: just cost and feature parity.
asciilifeform: if someone has idle hands that can do a bit of digging - appreciated.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i had been looking at this too.
mircea_popescu: nothing good popped as of yet.
asciilifeform: perhaps by this time next year - i'll have a part number
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i've been looking since before i mentioned pogo in b-a
mircea_popescu: i suspect on the score of electronics you actually beat my ppls.
asciilifeform: (it was pretty clear right off the bat that it's a loss-leader and ergo nonrenewableresource)
mircea_popescu: have been pondering if this pisses me off enough to do something about for a coupla months now.
asciilifeform: 'this' being the certain doom of pogo as off-the-shelf machine? yes, it is necessary to do something. main boojum is the ram-poverty of most available hardware in that weight class.
asciilifeform: hence the near inevitability of having these baked like grown men
assbot: Logged on 28-03-2015 15:08:04; nubbins`: ater some weeks: "...what's assbot?"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, "this" being that my intel sucks!
mircea_popescu: ram poverty in more than one way.
mircea_popescu: few have fast ram.
assbot: Logged on 28-03-2015 15:10:24; thestringpuller: I'm thinking of making a bot to determine uptime of other bots ;)
assbot: Marvell - Company - Sales Offices ... ( http://bit.ly/1D0UkL0 )
asciilifeform: most of the ones i've purchased and cut open thus far have very similar 8 to 16-bit wide sdram (ddr2 typically) - almost always 'hynix' or samsung
assbot: Logged on 28-03-2015 15:36:51; nubbins`: lel, protestors have started doxxing the riot police
asciilifeform: nubbins`: no reason to marry marvell
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ever seen one with ddr3 ?
mircea_popescu: which is a better perk than whatever arm processor.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: nope and not sure that i would ask for ddr3
asciilifeform: !s rowhammer
assbot: 5 results for 'rowhammer' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=rowhammer
nubbins`: mircea_popescu nyoozpaper says austerity
mircea_popescu: so basically "more welfare" ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: did intel ever mention rowhammer ?
nubbins`: nubbins says latent anger from widespread protests couple years ago
asciilifeform: (your intel not the other intel)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform well yes. however!
mircea_popescu: it'd depend a lot on what you use it for.
asciilifeform: see, when i use memory, and put bits in, i expect to get them out later.
asciilifeform: unflipped.
asciilifeform: this is non-negotiable in my mind.
mircea_popescu: ok, let me model it.
nubbins`: mircea_popescu students were protesting funding cuts. in a couple of the photos, you can see police wearing stickers protesting... pension cuts.
asciilifeform: i don't even see 'rowhammer' as a security item, as such. just an indicator of 'this system is built on snot and bubblegum'
nubbins`: as they discharge tear gas canisters point-blank into faces :0
mircea_popescu: case 1 : you have slow memory, 64 gb of. you need 5 gb. case 2 : you have fast leaky memory, 32gb of. you still need 5gb, but use 15 for redundancy.
mircea_popescu: moreover, there are fixes for the particular effect, buy rowhammer proof sticks.
mircea_popescu: for instance.
asciilifeform: need ecc ram controller then
asciilifeform: and i actually don't know of any system-on-chip that includes one
mircea_popescu: which was my point.
asciilifeform: this bodes ill for use of off-the-shelf si.
mircea_popescu: either that or time will resolve.
asciilifeform: cost pressure is squarely in opposite direction.
asciilifeform: so it may be a 'if not you then who' situation.
mats: im under the impression that ecc doesn't mitigate the attack
asciilifeform: mats: it is only an attack vector if you allow enemy means to hammer
mircea_popescu: mats these aren't really intended to be multiuser systems.
mircea_popescu: ecc is more general "leaky memory" thing.
asciilifeform: by executing code on your machine, or by knowing something about mapping of external world i/o to your ram
asciilifeform: i consider it a 'this thing is made of bubblegum because fuck you, you're consumer meat' vector
mircea_popescu: no alf. it's because fuck you, you want to spend fiddy bux.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: where do i spend 500 and get ecc systemonchip?
asciilifeform: nowhere
mircea_popescu: that's the problem there : hole in the middle.
mircea_popescu: it's either consumer 50 or else spend 5mn.
mircea_popescu: exactly like with wines.
mircea_popescu: and that's a hole that's there for thermodynamic reasons too. nobody made it.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: see, if we're gedankenexperimenting about a mass-produced equivalent of 'pogo', then unreliable hardware can be rationalized, 'отряд не заметил потери бойца' (TM) - what's one flipped bit. if we're gedankening about a 'wallet' - whole other ball game
mircea_popescu: i don't imagine the wallet can ever be anything but pc.
mircea_popescu: of the most common, ordinary or typical kind.
asciilifeform: i actually don't much like the rf-loudness of pc
Chillum: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WcHsT97suU <-- due to cosmic rays you should always expect the possibility of a bit flipping at random in your memory
assbot: DEF CON 19 - Artem Dinaburg - Bit-squatting: DNS Hijacking Without Exploitation - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1D0Xyy3 )
asciilifeform: esp. the '90s collectibles you and i are fond of
asciilifeform: !s bitsquatting
assbot: 8 results for 'bitsquatting' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=bitsquatting
mircea_popescu: no other consideration can beat the advantages of commonality i dun think.
mircea_popescu: Chillum that's why he's such an error correction fanboi.
Chillum: I wonder if that would work on an address
asciilifeform: anyway there is a reason i don't work on wallets
Chillum: what if the error happens in your cpu or hard drive cache?
mircea_popescu: we don't talk about that (tm)
asciilifeform: 'skin in the game' problem
Chillum: lol,
mats: there's a checksum at the end of an address no?
mircea_popescu: there is yes.
Chillum: yes, in theory it could change after it is checked though
Chillum: but I think that would invalidate the contract
asciilifeform: and a proper auditable and tandem-cpu'd 'wallet' would cost more than anyone is willing to pay.
Chillum: so I _think_ it is not an issue.
asciilifeform: anything less, i don't have any interest in signing my name on.
mircea_popescu: "and if i find a ten foot tall transparent (not translucent!!!) woman, i might stick my penis into her
mircea_popescu: anything else... buzoff!"
nubbins`: <+mircea_popescu> it's either consumer 50 or else spend 5mn. exactly like wines. <<< exactly like *everything*. you'll mollify some rubes with "prosumer" but that's really just $50 with more chrome
mats: after some reinvestigation, SECDED ECC is not good enough to stop row hammering, because it can cause many bit flips. Halvar, et al found up to 25 flipped bits
Chillum: wine can cost more than $50???
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: let's put it this way. if i built a wallet, and put my x btc in it, no one would say 'this fella really means business'
asciilifeform: the folks with xxxxx will not be convinced.
mircea_popescu: Chillum yes.
asciilifeform: as they shouldn't be.
Chillum: a bottle that big would be hard to carry
Chillum: I guess it would be a box at that size
mircea_popescu: yes yes, we get it, very funny mr facetious joke
Chillum: lol
asciilifeform: mats: if you treat 'rowhammering' as a statistical phenomenon, instead of allowing the enemy to induce arbitrary memory access patterns on the machine, it is considerably easier to deal with.
Chillum: how did you know my nick name?
asciilifeform: 'plug the correct end of a funnel.' (TM) (al schwartz)
mircea_popescu: Chillum i paid $100 for a bottle of knowledge.
mircea_popescu: <chetty> Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault. << this is me trying to alter eulora database. because you really want a mmorpg server that segfaults when game designers futz with game data.
mircea_popescu: WHO WROTE ALL THIS SOFTWARE OFMGWTFBBQ
nubbins`: bbq? in argentina? get out 8)
asciilifeform: it's either consumer 50 or else spend 5mn. exactly like wines. << mircea_popescu probably did not intend this double meaning, but it is EXACTLY like wines at this point. because the 5mn computer you can get today is not actually any but a cosmetic 'golden toilet' improvement over the 50.
mircea_popescu: no, i intended it.
asciilifeform: i think there are some fascinating surprises waiting for buyers of surplus 'boeing', 'lockheed', etc.
asciilifeform: there -was- a time when 5mn meant that you get tandem, cosmicray-proof, etc.
asciilifeform: in fact,
chetty: mircea_popescu, to be fair it doesnt kill a running server, just keeps it from starting :P
asciilifeform: !s tandem nonstop
assbot: 0 results for 'tandem nonstop' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=tandem+nonstop
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2010/masini-bune-si-masini-de-lux/ << me bashing the "better car is a luxury car" notion in 2010.
assbot: Masini bune si masini de lux pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1D10afm )
asciilifeform: ;;google tandem nonstop
gribble: Tandem Computers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tandem_Computers>; NonStop - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NonStop>; HP Integrity NonStop Servers - HP Servers | HP® Official Site: <http://www8.hp.com/us/en/products/servers/integrity/nonstop/>
mircea_popescu: chetty tru that.
asciilifeform: ^ defunct co.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 82423 @ 0.00027532 = 22.6927 BTC [-]
nubbins`: well ya know. luxury branded as such is precisely marketed towards the aspirational
assbot: Tandem Definition from PC Magazine Encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/1D10oTE )
nubbins`: actual luxury doesn't take out ad space in GQ
asciilifeform: nubbins`: 'luxury' isn't quite the concept i had in mind, but 'if this cpu flips a bit, kingdoms fall'
asciilifeform: nukexury
mircea_popescu: nubbins` the key of the article being, that if there's a genuinely "Better" anything, it will be in the mass market item, because the savings there are major. nobody is foregoing putting a GOOD something in an item that gets baked > 100mn units.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile, if there's some dubious / experimental stuff, it gets put into the luxury item
Chillum: store crucial info in a 5 way parity strip
mircea_popescu: because car makers, like any software designers, are more than willing to externalise their costs
nubbins`: if this cpu flips a bit, burial at space
mircea_popescu: exactly along the lines described in "you're the kid not good enough to sling dope"
Chillum: stripe that is
mircea_popescu: ie, let our rich customers pay for our automotive research.
asciilifeform: nubbins`: see how this is a somewhat different market from 'mercedes'
nubbins`: mircea_popescu a good example of this is when the nintendo wii came out, and researchers the world over started buying wiimotes for their labs
nubbins`: 3-axis gyro and accelerometers for $40
mircea_popescu: <nubbins`> actual luxury doesn't take out ad space in GQ << this is really just a more benign and socially acceptable restatement of alf's meta-nsa thesis.
nubbins`: in a nice case too!
mircea_popescu: exactly.
asciilifeform: Chillum: reliable computing is somewhat more than parity calculations. ('voting' protocols, heterogeneous cpus calculating same problem, etc)
asciilifeform: anyone have tlp's rolex article handy ?
mircea_popescu: "heterogenous cpus calculating same problem" seems to me like you maybe had too much of the good stuff.
asciilifeform: (re: 'actual luxury has no ads')
Chillum: valid point, no amount of checking will solve a race condition
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this was actually done
mircea_popescu: for what ?
asciilifeform: it is the only pill (other than 'fits in head') against boojums like intel's fpu bug
funkenstein_: does that describe bitcoin?
mircea_popescu: (i save the "but provably ?" for later)
asciilifeform: for what << for spacecraft, but don't have the needed citation handy
mircea_popescu: funkenstein_ yes, with the bonus that forks.
Chillum: you can induce random failures in RAM for testing purposes with a hair dryer
Chillum: not good for the ram though
mircea_popescu: isn't this more 90s sort of stuff ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the interesting thing is that if you confine the proof requirements to the consensus circuit, problem becomes actually manageable
nubbins`: big boys use a b&d heat gun
asciilifeform: because it isn't turing-complete
Chillum: best case scenario would be to fail safe, instead of fail silently
asciilifeform: Chillum: sometimes you want 'fail deadly'
mircea_popescu: "this is your new computer ms. robinson. and to repeat our warning : if you misspell it will whip you."
nubbins`: asciilifeform mircea_popescu why not just invent yourselves a friedcat and scoop up some investor fundz, sell a line of USB BITCOIN ERUPTORZ for 2btc each
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: l0l, the proverbial nazi method of teaching typing
Chillum: kickstarter
asciilifeform: electric (as in chair) typewriter
nubbins`: (speaking of externalizing costs)
mircea_popescu: nubbins` wait wut ?
Chillum: any project can benefit from OPM
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you know, most people that survived a halon dump also heard the pov that "the machine just does that when it's displeased"
nubbins`: mircea_popescu asicminer made *thousands* of btc selling those useless keychain miners
asciilifeform: nubbins`: interesting observation is that the 'friedcat algorithm' only worked because miners can be let secretly to sit and mine, amplifying the proceeds of that scam
nubbins`: this is true
nubbins`: first out of the gate, they probably still haven't counted all their money
asciilifeform: nubbins`: if they merely collected and sat on the money, there could have been no question of covering fab costs
mircea_popescu: well the reason they haven't is that wallet code is so damned bad.
asciilifeform: and especially not if they had used actual ab initio fab instead of 'hard copy fpga'
asciilifeform: (which is 1/10th to 1/5th the cost of the Real Deal)
asciilifeform: speaking of 'luxury' and orcish misunderstanding of the concept, iirc ru has the world's only aston martin showroom where -folks actually buy and drive off-
mircea_popescu: this because russians know enough to not have it any other way.
asciilifeform: to explain, such a machine in the rest of the world is built custom - seat with the skin of favourite deceased pet jaguar, etc.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform from the other pov, because in the rest of the world this machine is part of bezzleworld.
Chillum: They want a custom built auto, but they want it already made and waiting for them
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: normally it is presented as 'poor ru schmucks haven't learned how to be correctly rich yet'
mircea_popescu: better than the volga!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and there is truth to that, yes. but not just.
mircea_popescu: otherwise, why'd anyone care.
Chillum: they like Rolexes too
asciilifeform: they think 'rich' means they walk in and spend 10**4 times the money and walk out with consumer box, but same overall dynamic
mircea_popescu: i made hotel reservations for you lot, right ?
mircea_popescu: clerk is "all the guarantee we'll want is a cc"
mircea_popescu: "i don't use cc, and this will be paid in cash"
mircea_popescu: ima have to cart bricks of cash to the hotel nao. and i will.
mircea_popescu: because, poor ex-billionaire mp doesn't know how to be a ex-billionaire correctly, like whatever frail us schmuck.
asciilifeform thought only in usa was cash spat on this way
chetty: argies use almost all cash, hotels are for touristas
mircea_popescu: it's a halfway world, right ? i hope you survive the indignity :)
mircea_popescu: it's not 100% us!
asciilifeform is accustomed to the chemically-pure gut-dissolving 100 percent u.s
mircea_popescu: how did the timisoara one look from that pov ?
chetty: thats a point, you guys might get chem withdrawl
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it looked like valhalla
mircea_popescu: o rly ? then this should be ok.
mircea_popescu: literally across the plaza from the casa rosada.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20850 @ 0.00027604 = 5.7554 BTC [+]
nubbins` recalls staying in Crowne Plaza Bogota and cutting up a particularly dense turd with a sterling silver butter knife so it would flush
mircea_popescu: suites, too.
assbot: Last 2 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/0H0C6AW.txt )
mircea_popescu: ahahaha what!
nubbins`: srs!!!
nubbins`: this was after 2 weeks in the jungles and slumming around small towns
mircea_popescu: dude, try eating some greens sometime.
nubbins`: mi estomago
nubbins`: notfun.jpg tried cutting in half, wasn't enough, had to slice it like a fuckin pepperoni
trinque: hahahaha
mircea_popescu: this is possibly the weirdest thing i ever heard
mircea_popescu: did you put it on a plate ?
asciilifeform: nubbins`: there are actually locales in usa with pipes so narrow, that this is sop
nubbins`: ahahahah
asciilifeform: except that folks buy specially constructed toilets
asciilifeform: with something like a food processor built in to the pedestal
trinque: or you just pinch it every couple links
asciilifeform is not, unfortunately, making this up
nubbins`: mircea_popescu cut right in the bowl, natch
trinque: old buildings, well known not to drop the whole load at once
nubbins`: would have left it, but travelling partner also had to take huge dump
mircea_popescu: who does this
nubbins`: and the peril scared us
nubbins`: afaik only me :/
Chillum: my toilet works
funkenstein_: lol nubbins
nubbins`: for now.
funkenstein_: speaking of bogota you see the pics of hail last week?
mircea_popescu: i hate to break it to you nubbins` but this is really not normal.
mircea_popescu: it may be how scatophilia begins.
nubbins`: DUDE I HAD NO OTHER CHOICE
nubbins`: I LET IT SIT FOR THREE HOURS TO SOFTEN
Chillum: that is what all scatophiles say
trinque: could've just left it and never looked back
trinque: tragedy of the commons
nubbins`: trinque <+nubbins`> would have left it, but travelling partner also had to take huge dump
nubbins`: my shame prevented me from asking for a new room
trinque: just a bigger tragedy then
Chillum: cutting it up when you have it is not that strange. Telling people about it though...
mircea_popescu: "hello concierge ? yes i need a new room please, this one is full of shit."
trinque: I worked in a hotel once; this would not be the worst thing to encounter
mircea_popescu: Chillum no the telling is normal.
trinque: at least the turd was in the can, not the bed
mircea_popescu: amateur shit processing however...
nubbins`: anyways $100usd buys you a very large amount of nice hotel room in .co
asciilifeform: ;;google macerator
gribble: Macerator - Industrial-Craft-Wiki: <http://wiki.industrial-craft.net/index.php?title=Macerator>; Macerator - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macerator>; Bathroom Anywhere Macerator Pump 120 Volt-38724.0 - Home Depot: <http://www.homedepot.com/p/Bathroom-Anywhere-Macerator-Pump-120-Volt-38724-0/202217665>
trinque: asciilifeform: final nub question; where's the list of these crossdev targets?
trinque: ^ is a lie
asciilifeform: gcc 'configure' --help, iirc
assbot: Bathroom Anywhere Macerator Pump 120 Volt-38724.0 - The Home Depot ... ( http://bit.ly/1D18U5b )
nubbins`: buildroot make is still bailing out while trying to compile -- no joke -- tar 1.28
nubbins`: this is how i learned the tar ecosystem is actually a fucking nightmare
nubbins`: and linux, bsd, osx implementations are all almost wholly incompatible
asciilifeform: nubbins`: please consider using a real computer, or if you must crapple - a vm
nubbins`: asciilifeform this was kinda the final straw
nubbins`: individual packages, i don't mind kludging
nubbins`: but i have no interest in dismantling buildroot from the top down
nubbins`: will steal wifey's machine this eve
assbot: Kitchen & Bathroom News | Saniflo introduces slim-line macerator pump ... ( http://bit.ly/1D19QX7 )
asciilifeform: ^ l0l re: pin-up in this ad
mircea_popescu: <nubbins`> this is how i learned the tar ecosystem is actually a fucking nightmare << it's reallty very very bad.
mircea_popescu: and for that matter, the parallels between usg-poettering "working on" linux and usgavin "working on" bitcoin are utterly striking.
mircea_popescu: here's this monstruous pile of serious problems in dire need of a solution, and here's the transgenderqueer crowd fixing pronouns and breaking the scant few things that almost work.
mircea_popescu: and no, i don't propose that there's an actual office somewhere directing this braindamage.
mircea_popescu: it's just that moot subcultures at the end of their rope spew singlemindedness as a natural fermentation product.
asciilifeform: not that there is no office where hearn et al are given winks, nudges, and stacks of benjies
mircea_popescu: i doubt poettering for isntance as much as saw a whiff of a whiff of that.
asciilifeform: (does poettering have a 'day job' ? and, if so, what is it?)
mircea_popescu: he has a boss in rh who has a boss who has an orlov who has an etc. six strings long, the flea circus.
mircea_popescu: it's being a bitch for dubious usg contractors.
mircea_popescu: !up jdjfjfucuysbebej
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 146808 @ 0.00027532 = 40.4192 BTC [-] {2}
jdjfjfucuysbebej: Why do you need to be upped?
asciilifeform: meowmix ?
danielpbarron: !up Bagels7
mircea_popescu: i don't need to be upped. you do.
mircea_popescu: so this difference between us is enforced in a way you can't ignore.
danielpbarron: so "uppity"
nubbins`: !down jdjfjfucuysbebej
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 64150 @ 0.00027806 = 17.8375 BTC [+] {3}
nubbins`: dat androirc@
mircea_popescu: well at least he got his isp to give him a new ip.
nubbins`: yeah!
nubbins`: it's like 1.5x as much ip as last time
mircea_popescu: which - the cunts - made an ipv6. such service.
asciilifeform: seems like he's on a pNohe
asciilifeform: hence new ip
mircea_popescu: any good gf pov ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47550 @ 0.00028032 = 13.3292 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: holy shit 28 ? MEAT TONIGHT!
trinque: for the other crossdev newbs, gcc -dumpmachine will (I think?) give what must be plonked into crossdev --target
mats: it rises
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so random ssd question for you. aren't the reads destructive just as writes are ? how come not if not ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: read measures charge. high-impedance circuit, so 'bubble' isn't moving
asciilifeform: hence no appreciable ion migration.
mircea_popescu: these cells are tiny.
mircea_popescu: how the fuck do they measure charge without altering it
asciilifeform: not -that- tiny.
Chillum: blocks are rewritten on a schedule in most firmware I think
Chillum: part of wear levelling
asciilifeform: Chillum: that wasn't the question
Chillum: I guess I misunderstood
mircea_popescu: Chillum that was more of a "we want this hardware to last 25 months exactly" marketin thing i thought
nubbins`: dat NTFS write scheme
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 77189 @ 0.00027266 = 21.0464 BTC [-] {4}
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform how tiny ? afaik the controlling factor limitng memory atm is that they can't make it thinner than it is because single layer silicone and tunelling becoems a thing.
mircea_popescu: well if that's the case...
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'read-disturb' is a thing, yes
asciilifeform: but, iirc, small.
asciilifeform: but not zero.
mircea_popescu: how much of a thing ? 100 reads ? 1mn reads ?
mircea_popescu: what's the per-read LD50 of memory i wish to know!
nubbins`: you want that in mg/kg?
mircea_popescu: nah, count per capita.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47620 @ 0.00028053 = 13.3588 BTC [+]
asciilifeform: afaik there is no published data.
asciilifeform: other than 'it exists' and 'commercial nand flash controllers compensate in proprietary ways' (l0l yes)
mircea_popescu: interesting huh.
mircea_popescu: anyways.
asciilifeform: my understanding is that 'read-disturb' is largely temporary.
mircea_popescu: why would it be temporary ?
nubbins`: bbl food!
asciilifeform: because results from residual charge from neighbouring signal to select the row/col. to read.
asciilifeform: rather than a 'reflashing' of a bit.
mircea_popescu: then this isn't really the effect i was talking about
mircea_popescu: but a sort of low level rowhammer
Chillum: 'commercial nand flash controllers compensate in proprietary ways' = rewriting the block every X reads
asciilifeform: -consecutive- reads
asciilifeform: thinkaboutit
asciilifeform: or you'd need a whole other array to count.
asciilifeform: turtles for the turtles to stand on.
mircea_popescu: i think they count by row
mircea_popescu: and reflash by row
Chillum: plus retiring nands and using unused ones after X accesses. One of the ways they hide decay
mircea_popescu: i know they write per row in any case.
assbot: Yaffs NAND flash failure mitigation | Yaffs ... ( http://bit.ly/1D1gEnv )
asciilifeform: ^ small likbez
Chillum: not sure about the exact granularity
mircea_popescu: in any case about 1/4 of the total capacity of a ssd is not actually shown the os.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in recent devices, even more.
mircea_popescu: there's ample room in there to count by row, and keep reserves etc.
Chillum: nice link
asciilifeform: 'hammers' were always somewhat interesting. who here remembers 'walking drum disks' ?
Chillum: from the wall?
asciilifeform: also a kind of 'software hammer' where unbalanced rotor effect was induced
asciilifeform: those things could easily walk through a cement wall
mircea_popescu: anyone know a fast and painless way to make subtitles for a youtube ?
funkenstein_: i was asking a database guy about log structured databases like the blockchain
funkenstein_: he told me to read about ssd filesystems
funkenstein_: and no, sorry, i don't
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 50883 @ 0.00027476 = 13.9806 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33900 @ 0.00028053 = 9.51 BTC [+]
jurov: ;;google closed captioning service
gribble: Closed Captioning Services - Home Page: <http://www.ccscaption.com/>; Closed Captioning Service | Subtitles: <http://captionmax.com/>; Captionlabs: Closed Caption Service, Closed Captioning Services: <http://www.captionlabs.com/>
jurov: ^ mircea_popescu may be what you need
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6400 @ 0.00028065 = 1.7962 BTC [+] {2}
trinque: got muh cross compiler cross compilin'
trinque gets food, then will try to build the foundation's bitcoind
jurov: have a blood of stillborn ready?
trinque: how bout some sacrificial cats?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 69300 @ 0.00028066 = 19.4497 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 98900 @ 0.00028066 = 27.7573 BTC [+]
trinque: changing the arch in auto.sh didn't seem to work
trinque: saw it using system g++ anyway, failed to link the result
trinque: found the relevant patches
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24632 @ 0.00028066 = 6.9132 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: jurov hm ?
mod6: trinque: what OS/arch ?
trinque: mod6: trying to cross compile for the pogo
mod6: oh, ok.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: fansub << yes!
assbot: Моя мастерская with subtitles | Amara ... ( http://bit.ly/1D8LfPk )
asciilifeform: ^ i used it to fansub a youtube
asciilifeform: deadly simple
asciilifeform: (won't overlay on youtube unless you're the one who posted the film, naturally)
asciilifeform: i searched far and wide for a fansub tool, ended up with that
assbot: Моя мастерская with subtitles | Amara ... ( http://bit.ly/1EhAhJC )
asciilifeform: trinque: the absolute best way to do crossdev, imho, is 1) have a gentoo box and use 'crossdev' emerge tool which magically builds the toolchains correctly 2) wait for buildroot
trinque: asciilifeform: I have crossdev and built a simple main.c which ran on the pogo
asciilifeform: (or don't wait, if you download the stock version and build the 'sheevaplug' thing - it gives almost usable kernel)
asciilifeform: (re: that film: no, i am not personally acquainted with the fella who made the film.)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25250 @ 0.00028066 = 7.0867 BTC [+]
ben_vulpes: trinque: a hack that i've seen to work is building for arch in a docker container
ben_vulpes: but that's how bizpartner compiles his flugenputer
trinque: ben_vulpes: really just waiting for someone to say "auto.sh doesn't do that yet" so I am aware of whether I'm wasting time fixing it :D
trinque: seems mad about the arch being passed to the openssl compile, which could either be me not having the right environment encantations or who knows
trinque doesn't mind continuing to hump the football
ben_vulpes: odd image
assbot: sata - Octopart ... ( http://bit.ly/1EhClkM )
asciilifeform: ^ note the prices.
asciilifeform: summary: the cheapest commercially-advertised microcontroller with integrates sata costs more than 'pogo' even in qty. 10,000+.
asciilifeform: -the chip alone.-
asciilifeform: not even speaking of board, ram, ethernet magnetics & connector, ..., ....
asciilifeform: commercially, that is, in the public english-speaking world.
asciilifeform: i am very much hoping to be proven mistaken about this!
asciilifeform: (and no, didn't only check the meta-search engine 'octopart' but every single one of my favourite suppliers.)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23000 @ 0.00028071 = 6.4563 BTC [+] {2}
nubbins`: asciilifeform re: octopart: lel, think we can run turdel on an Atmel Butterfly? :S
nubbins`: <+mircea_popescu> anyone know a fast and painless way to make subtitles for a youtube ? <<< http://captiongenerator.com/
assbot: Add Captions to Any Youtube Video - Caption Generator ... ( http://bit.ly/1EhFMbo )
assbot: woodcollector hitler - Caption Generator ... ( http://bit.ly/1EhFNMq )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45350 @ 0.00028083 = 12.7356 BTC [+]
asciilifeform: nubbins`: where's the sata and Gb ethernet ?
nubbins`: dude it has a piezo speaker and a pin for your lapel, what more do you want?
nubbins`: anyway long+short we'll never get a deal like the pogos until, well, the next pogo-like thing comes along
nubbins`: i doubt pogo paid less than $18/unit.
nubbins`: (for those wondering how $18 can turn profit for amazon sellers -- the current sellers are likely the ones who scooped up pallet loads at $7ea in prior years)
jurov: http://www.cnet.com/news/iron-sky-2-nazis-lizard-people-and-hitler-on-a-t-rex/ googled too lizard hitler and... we gotta use this pic sometime
assbot: 'Iron Sky 2': Nazis, lizard people and Hitler on a T.rex - CNET ... ( http://bit.ly/1NprR4k )
jurov: what about a contest - best memepic made out of it?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 58100 @ 0.00028083 = 16.3162 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform a danke
assbot: Chromecast - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/1Npua7A )
nubbins`: MFW an avr butterfly costs more than a SATA pogo
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform nice.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in fairness, there's 0 price sensitivity from 1 to 10k. pleads against octosite being too useful.
nubbins`: almost none of the items give price breaks beyond 100
nubbins`: some, not even then
mircea_popescu: yeah well...
mircea_popescu: !up d9b4bef9
nubbins`: hi d9b4bef9
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25050 @ 0.0002787 = 6.9814 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 220370 @ 0.00027476 = 60.5489 BTC [-]
jurov: https://medium.com/@octskyward/replace-by-fee-43edd9a1dd6d power rangers fight over messing up zeroconf
assbot: Replace by fee — Medium ... ( http://bit.ly/1NpxEa1 )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25900 @ 0.00027191 = 7.0425 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9550 @ 0.00027191 = 2.5967 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: " Blowing up 0-confirm transactions is vandalism."
mircea_popescu: lol at these kids. vandalism, racism, chauvinism et all. the bad words of a new generation.
nubbins`: anything to be gained by enabling mmu support in buildroot? spidey sense says no
mircea_popescu: i can't see what it'd help
mircea_popescu: "It’s absolutely essential for buying stuff in shops. A currency that can’t be used to buy a newspaper on the street is not going to be seen as a real currency by the man on that street." << again and again with this nonsense. what the "man on the street" sees or doesn't see, accepts or hates, whatever the fuck is entirely unimportant.
mircea_popescu: not that i think the replace by fee idea is worth implementing, but the reasons given are lulzy.
mircea_popescu: for the record : a node can do this currently, if a node feels like doing this currently. whether we like it or not is immaterial, really. some miners tried it historically, but it's generally speaking dumb an' so it never caught on.
nubbins`: <+mircea_popescu> lol at these kids. vandalism, racism, chauvinism et all. the bad words of a new generation. <<< hurtyfeelism
nubbins`: man on the street using special drawing rights to purchase a coffee
mircea_popescu: myeah. it's just... utterly confused.
mircea_popescu: sort-of like seeing footballers trying to reason about medicine. that's what this entire "buncha derpy kids + some usg moles debating bitcoin" looks to me : like a bunch of nfl picks got parachuted in senegal, and are now trying to get themselves cured of tb
mircea_popescu: "maybe if we hit it really hard with THIS rock!"
mircea_popescu: "dude you threw the rock like a girl"
mircea_popescu: "nu uh urmom!"
nubbins`: oh wow, osx actually shipped with bsd-tar AND gnu-tar until 10.9
jurov: re: reliable computers vs. luxury cars...apples and oranges
mircea_popescu: industrial products are industrial products. all of them. without exception. exactly the same thing.
mircea_popescu: and, for that matter, the very people in the more "advanced" economies are by now exactly industrial products.
jurov: i haven't heard about "luxury car" with doubled or triply-redundant engine and other stuff
jurov: to achieve 99.9999 whatever uptime
mircea_popescu: the exact way reliability is implemented depends more on the context neh ?
mircea_popescu: you ever heard of car that won't start ?
jurov: yes. and luxury ones, too
mircea_popescu: i haven't.
mircea_popescu: (luxury i mean)
jurov: better comparison would be a car that can go for years without service break
jurov: or serviceable during movement
jurov: hence, apples and oranges
mircea_popescu: lol @hearn : "So: money is not a mathematical construct. It’s a social construct. The fact that Bitcoin uses some fairly basic maths to coordinate social decisions over the internet doesn’t change that."
mircea_popescu: apparently the eater-of-worlds interepretation of bitcoin got some pretty high level people involved.
mircea_popescu: yes derps, "money" as in usd is a social construct. money as in bitcoin is not a social construct.
mircea_popescu: this is why we're here. cause the superset of your shit is the way to clean your shit out of this world.
nubbins`: money is not a mathematical construct?
mircea_popescu: eh, he has a skeleton of good points, on which he plants the usual bs.
nubbins` invites hearn to use money without numbers
mircea_popescu: kinda par for the course for assets rly.
nubbins`: what next, statistics is not a mathematical construct?
mircea_popescu: notably, he's on medium.
mircea_popescu: nubbins` nothing's anything and if you have a business obama made that business
mircea_popescu: check your privilege.
mircea_popescu: but anyway : usd is currently trying to use money without numbers.
mircea_popescu: which ties in quite hysterically into the romanian expression "Fara numar"
mircea_popescu: which is very instructive, because it's gypsytalk for "a lot of money". which is the problem of being a gypsy : very good social, very poor maths, failure to thrive in the world.
assbot: fara numar - Google zoeken ... ( http://bit.ly/1NpCMv4 )
TomServo: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-03-2015#1077008 << I'm curious to flesh this out a bit.
assbot: Logged on 28-03-2015 16:44:11; mircea_popescu: Chillum completely unrelated : do you have any fucking idea how desired a bitcoin host is here ?
mircea_popescu: TomServo you couldn't have missed it in the logs ? we want a bitcoin hosting corp.
mircea_popescu: what rg was supposed to run before going nuts.
TomServo: Say a guy had a nearly a racks worth a few generations old HP gear his workplace was going to get rid of.. and his own private stash of similiar era network gear.
mircea_popescu: so start a dc.
TomServo: And could be inspired to seek out colo pricing.. would this be of interest as a starting point?
nubbins`: (for bonus lel, "related pictures" #2)
nubbins`: algorithm: "oh, here's a dude blowing a big hair-icicle. this works."
mircea_popescu: nubbins` in romanian, it's a thing.
mircea_popescu: (literally that means "unbounded talent", but in that context talent would strictly denote a whore's talent, and it is only used ironically. so it's an apt caption for a teenager derping with a faux cock)
TomServo: mircea_popescu: I'd imagine being usian based would be a problem, tho?
mircea_popescu: TomServo lock the cages, superglue the locks lol
assbot: Leonard Cohen - Dress Rehearsal Rag - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1NpE5tS )
TomServo: mircea_popescu: heh, I'm for it! I'm honestly trying consider it here... though I feel I might need a financial attorney to sort everything out given my locale.
nubbins`: if i forgot english i'd learn it again for cohen
mircea_popescu: TomServo colocation is a service, ship them to fucking malysia if you care.
TomServo: mircea_popescu: It's an option I suppose.. but I was thinking my hands of the hardware would be a big piece of what I'm selling.
mircea_popescu: alrighty, that also.
mircea_popescu: i'm just saying, the need is there. as long as you clearly advertise what exactly you do and then stick to it exactly... it'll have custom.
TomServo: Well I'll ponder it some more and welcome any further feedback on the aging infrastructure being proposed and it's utility.
TomServo: its* :)
mircea_popescu: the one serious problem for you, or anyone else trying to do business in the us (say, cisco) is that sooner or later your government will try and rape you with those "secret legal proceedings" bs.
mircea_popescu: at that point, you'll be in the lavamail seat. either you become complicit with the criminals, or else you'll be prosecuted by the criminals.
mircea_popescu: (either side's claim as to the criminality of the other being unresolvable, since no rule of law, since "secret proceedings")
TomServo: Right, so doing this in the US is simply untenable - no?
mircea_popescu: but i guess you could do something like the traditional "We have received no unmentionable paperwork from local band of criminals" monthly announcement
mircea_popescu: since you can't be legally compelled to actually lie.
mircea_popescu: it'll be a tough walk tho.
mircea_popescu: well, it's tenable if you're looking to pick a fight.
TomServo: This being the 'warrant canary'?
assbot: US Government Makes Slight Concession in Twitter’s Warrant-Canary Suit | Just Security ... ( http://bit.ly/1NpGODx )
jurov: TomServo: I want to do hosting too, but wanted a partner
trinque: "the government concedes that companies who have never received any kind of national-security request from the government and who are not bound by other nondisclosure provisions vis-à-vis the government may lawfully publish warrant canaries publicizing that fact."
trinque: so, better start with one, it seems
trinque: other relevant info worth reading there
TomServo: jurov: Thoughts on the discussion so far?
jurov: physical hw location does not matter to me, can be the best korea or whatever
jurov: and if you did not have the offer, i can shop around here
jurov: or perhaps having both us and eu right from the start would be best
mircea_popescu: but they use a shitty signature shceme and wtf, reference bitcoin block hashes already
mircea_popescu: jurov eu understood as slovakia is particularly useful.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 49437 @ 0.00027288 = 13.4904 BTC [+] {2}
jurov: yes, it may end up in czech rep or so
trinque: asciilifeform: any opposition to me adding a parameter for a few predefined architectures in auto.sh?
mircea_popescu: the czechs should totally go back to kingdom
trinque: I've got it cross-compiling nicely from a gentoo host, currently munching through boost
mats: i wouldn't mind lending a hand if you're looking for help
trinque: ben_vulpes: "monkey humping a football" << couldn't be a more apt description of the process I used to get crossdev working with auto.sh
funkenstein_: i have used bitcoincloud.eu with no trouble yet
TomServo: jurov: what do you mean 'not have the offer'?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 101500 @ 0.00027566 = 27.9795 BTC [+] {2}
jurov: you consider hosting because you got the gear offered, no?
TomServo: I'm interested in the prospect in general.. the hardware availablity just being a perk. I was curious if there was legitmate interest in this hardware specifically.
jurov: if it does not have features like iLO remote pwnkit, that is considered plus here
TomServo: heh of course.. unfortunately.. these have it.
mircea_popescu: b-a sourced host, this should be interesting.
mircea_popescu: jurov "HP iLO - The preferred IT administrator in every ProLiant server" you fudster you.
mircea_popescu: "HP iLO functions out-of-the-box without additional software installation regardless of the servers' state of operation giving you complete access to your server from any location via a web browser or the iLO Mobile App"
mircea_popescu: i hope it has ssl. you know, for the api.
jurov: overall, being able to learn on cheap older stuff is nice to have
mircea_popescu: TomServo incidentally, they being your machines, you can take a hammer at parts.
jurov: imo
TomServo: I agree.
mircea_popescu: "what's the most important tool in the arsenal of the security consultant ?"
mircea_popescu: "a #3 chisel"
trinque wonders what the fuck python headers have to do with boost
jurov: do you have USE=python set?
jurov: it may be the default
trinque: jurov: just running the auto.sh
trinque: probably lots to be snipped out of the boost config
trinque: probably better to snip boost
jurov: this was discussed
trinque: I am well aware, just marveling at what I see in my terminal
jurov: and conclusion was, that any bigger c++ project needs it (or poor reimplementation of it)
jurov: kk
jurov: so, TomServo?
TomServo: jurov: I'ma thinking.
mircea_popescu: !up ascii_modem
ascii_modem: nubbins': linux with disabled mmu id... msdos!! in the bad sense
ascii_modem: in machine shop, ugh, cold fingers
mircea_popescu: why would you want to do software mmu ?
ascii_modem: 0 price sensitivity below 10k << false for all common parts. try it
ascii_modem: software mmu?!
mircea_popescu: what is it doing in linux then ?
ascii_modem: support -for- mmu
mircea_popescu: *tripletake*
mircea_popescu: thanks god someone reads these logs o.O
ascii_modem: but yeah for uniquely impoverished archs there is mmuless linux
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 54376 @ 0.00027611 = 15.0138 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: !up odyjm
ascii_modem: canary << mega-lol, apple killed their canary. who noticed, who remembers now ?
ben_vulpes: i noticed.
ben_vulpes: everyone i work with knows.
ascii_modem: and me aha
mircea_popescu: what, you think i don't like apple because of its hairdo ?
ben_vulpes: weird hairdos come with good bjs
ben_vulpes: (sometimes)
mircea_popescu: http://41.media.tumblr.com/e11f97d0aed79e6d22c67e293d63ecc3/tumblr_mx97scN9DM1s78jo7o1_1280.jpg << country bumpkin reaches california. first day, burn the tits. next day, burn the butt.
ben_vulpes: but this weird hairdo has the clap
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 51107 @ 0.00027137 = 13.8689 BTC [-] {3}
mircea_popescu: "don't like" != "weird" mr.
TomServo: ascii_modem | canary << was hoping this would be mentioned. So what is the value? zilch?
mircea_popescu: pre dropping or post ?
TomServo: the apple case specifically
ben_vulpes: the honor of a few at the top. maybe. if they get out and come here.
ben_vulpes: for a btc host, not a bad idea. low cost.
assbot: American Millennials are among the world's least skilled - Fortune ... ( http://bit.ly/1xJA8gc )
asciilifeform set up enormous power saw, other things, back now
mircea_popescu: not surprising.
mircea_popescu: but hey, at least they challenged patriarchy.
asciilifeform: mexican jail << possibly favourite of all the pics i've seen so far here
ben_vulpes: * asciilifeform set up enormous power saw << pics?
asciilifeform: it's a 'hitachi'
asciilifeform: did not occur to me to take a photo
asciilifeform: everyone already has this saw.
ben_vulpes: chop?
asciilifeform: (recced by diametric)
jurov: my mom was using "husqvarna"
jurov: sewing machine.
mircea_popescu: When the results were analyzed by age group and nationality, ETS got a shock. It turns out, says a new report, that Millennials in the U.S. fall short when it comes to the skills employers want most: literacy (including the ability to follow simple instructions), practical math, and — hold on to your hat — a category called “problem-solving in technology-rich environments.”
ben_vulpes: really?
mircea_popescu: "Not only do Gen Y Americans lag far behind their overseas peers by every measure, but they even score lower than other age groups of Americans."
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: coulda sworm you said "enormous"...
asciilifeform: enormous compared to the tiny jeweler's saw i'm accustomed to
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes probably imagined meat processing plant chopper for whole pigs / corpses
funkenstein_: ETS got a shock <-- the funny bit
mircea_popescu: Altogether, the top U.S. Gen Yers, in the 90th percentile, “scored lower than their counterparts in 15 countries,” the report notes, “and only scored higher than their peers in Spain.”
mircea_popescu: pretty much exactly what one expected.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i was honestly wondering about its orientation and axes of articulation.
trinque: mircea_popescu: the simple instructions bit is as much mental illness as it is literacy
trinque: and that is largely due to terrible upbringing and terrible diet through formative years
trinque: current generation and below is probably irreparably fucked
mircea_popescu: diet has possibly less to do with it than gayness.
trinque: dunno, does mountain dew *cause* gayness?
mircea_popescu: well... "gayness", the faux cultural homosexuality the us came up with to try and avoid facing the actual problem
mircea_popescu: anyway, human populations are not linear. the current twentysomething/late teens are completely discardable out of hand, like so much rag.
mircea_popescu: however, the next one will probably shine.
mircea_popescu: generations alternate.
ben_vulpes: actual problems to cut their teeth on.
mircea_popescu: in any case, it's for the nine year olds we're even building all this wot bitcoin etc stack
trinque nods
mircea_popescu: but when 2025 rolls around and late 30s/early 40s dumb fat fucks inquire as to why we're fucking teenagers
mircea_popescu: the answer will be a uniform, resounding "because you're fucking stupid"
mircea_popescu: "every chance you had, you blew it!"
trinque: I'm trying to find a figure on the number of USAians on psychiatric meds
trinque: ...it's high, whatever it is
mircea_popescu: like a third ?
trinque: that or higher, I'd wager
asciilifeform: counting the ones in the drinking water or no ?
trinque: one thing I wait eagerly to see is when those run dry
trinque: asciilifeform: no, but of course all pollutants come to the party
mircea_popescu: What does that mean for U.S. employers hiring people born since 1980? Goodman notes that hiring managers shouldn’t overestimate the practical value of a four-year degree. True, U.S. Millennials with college credentials did score higher on the PIAAC than Americans with only a high school diploma (albeit less well than college grads in most other countries).
mircea_popescu: lmao! most expensive mit in the world. also only place in the world where mit grads can not use a battery to light a bulb.
asciilifeform: the exam that only measures what it wants to measure and not first and mostly willingness-to-do-exam is not yet born
mircea_popescu: trinque in general nature has well designed things : junkies in withdrawal are ineffectual.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the notion one even gets a choice in that matter is pernicious.
asciilifeform: in what ?
mircea_popescu: kinda why you want to hang all kids that do under x.
asciilifeform: aha that
mircea_popescu: that way, the "willingness to do exam" is less divergent.
asciilifeform: yeah i've for many years wanted to see the 'iq exam' thing automated
asciilifeform: as in, there's a piraña pit trap door
asciilifeform: which opens.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8000 @ 0.00028083 = 2.2466 BTC [+]
trinque: ahaha, asciilifeform is a bond villain
asciilifeform: this less
asciilifeform: but similar.
mircea_popescu: !up zen_
asciilifeform: not sure why
asciilifeform: but yes.
trinque: lol
mircea_popescu: because girls playing in the bath ? lol.
mircea_popescu: classical theme.
asciilifeform: not the bath, no
asciilifeform: they look like actual gurlz
asciilifeform: vs the bizarre kabuki thing that i never imprinted on
mircea_popescu: best kept secret by patriarchy : men actulaly like women.
nubbins`: <+ascii_modem> nubbins': linux with disabled mmu id... msdos!! in the bad sense <<< omg this is why i shop here!
asciilifeform: 22:13:05 up 1 day, 22:13, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 50700 @ 0.00027849 = 14.1194 BTC [-]
nubbins`: "By default this override file is named local.mk and located in the top directory of the Buildroot source tree, but a different location can be specified through the BR2_PACKAGE_OVERRIDE_FILE configuration option."
nubbins`: lies, no such file exists!
trinque: "...on 400th target..."
trinque: boost is the fire swamp
asciilifeform: nubbins`: could wait till i post this, you know
asciilifeform: i'm in the process of slicing out all of the actually relevant changes
nubbins`: heh. i'm actually just trying to feed in my own tar right now
nubbins`: practice, if nothing else
trinque: "...failed updating 3 targets..." BOOOOOOST.
nubbins`: ^ <+nubbins`> practice, if nothing else
nubbins`: tbh a fair percentage of my programming knowledge comes from hunting down stupid compile errors
nubbins`: like on the order of 80%+
trinque: eh I know the drill
trinque: boost is absurdly complex tho
trinque: I used it long ago working on a parental controls thing at a shartup
nubbins`: in fairness, the work behind presenting you a bash prompt is absurdly complex 8)
nubbins`: a shartup :0
trinque: an ass hair, the same from a perspective
trinque: nubbins`: oh yeah, big time
trinque: ruby on rails, and wads o boost c++
nubbins`: phun joke for people who work in offices: wander over to helpdesk and say "man, i found this usb stick in the parking lot and now my computer's acting /crazy/"
trinque: heh!
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 95371 @ 0.00027418 = 26.1488 BTC [-] {4}
mod6: <+jurov> my mom was using "husqvarna" << they make my favorite chainsaws / best chainsaws imho
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 324150 @ 0.00028134 = 91.1964 BTC [+] {4}
trinque: hm, boost wants bzip2 even though it's been instructed to not use that
trinque: that's about all the monkey-football time I have for today
mircea_popescu: your instructions have no power here.
nubbins`: i was fat before pot
trinque: gotta eat before you smoke!
trinque: man that chick... I bet she smells bad; they always do
asciilifeform: who's they
cazalla: while i await danielpbarron's response, anyone want to suggest why the pogo flashes green after following his guide after a reboot?
asciilifeform: cazalla: iirc that's the default left by uboot
cazalla: oh i forgot to mention, can no longer ssh to it or anything
asciilifeform: cazalla: serial port?
assbot: Log In - The New York Times ... ( http://bit.ly/1NpFvTg )
trinque: asciilifeform: "stoner chicks"
asciilifeform: trinque: why would that be
ben_vulpes: tl;dr: kleiner perkins wins, modern french revolutionaries proclaim great victory
ben_vulpes: "at least the cause has been moved forwards!"
ben_vulpes: i had a massive change of heart at lunch today
asciilifeform read that earlier today, but had a mindfuck and thought it was about perkin elmer
ben_vulpes: i am officially in favor of every welfare and spending plan in america
cazalla: asciilifeform, something i can pursue next weekend i guess
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: 'heightening the contradictions' ?
ben_vulpes: the more distracted by sexual inequality, gender inequality, income inequality, and the more attention they're paying to the management of the epic bureaucracy so built, the less time and energy will be devoted to the impending conflicts.
ben_vulpes: more along the lines of draining the battery, asciilifeform.
ben_vulpes: universal healthcare? fuck yes!
mircea_popescu: congrats, you are now clinton.
asciilifeform: at the risk of mixing metaphors, the battery is powered by burning the (remaining) furniture.
mircea_popescu: im pretty sure the woman is thinking, and im pretty sure this is what.
ben_vulpes: universal jobs program?
ben_vulpes: go for it!
ben_vulpes: robot horses?
ben_vulpes: why not?
trinque: inverse of "starve the beast"
trinque: gorge til death!
ben_vulpes: jets that fly like shitty helicopters and cost a bezzilion?
trinque: I like it
ben_vulpes: DO IT
ben_vulpes: those remaining fat reserves? eat 'em.
ben_vulpes: dig in and enjoy while it lasts, piggies.
mircea_popescu: there's a reason that story of mine is set at a feast.
mircea_popescu: appetite lacking, but anyway.
asciilifeform: can't speak for ben_vulpes, but no one came and asked me if the jets should be built
asciilifeform: so having a position on the matter feels odd
ben_vulpes: it constrains conversational attack surface
mircea_popescu: get with the social media age alfie.
asciilifeform: l0l mr o polls, 'should grumman get another $tril' ?
mircea_popescu: kickstart it.
trinque: I heard lockheed martin is going to build the enterprise with a fusion reactor
trinque: *upvote*
asciilifeform: suckstarter.
asciilifeform: (as in harley)
mircea_popescu: as in bad lay
asciilifeform: someone, iirc al schwartz, described his sister as 'could suckstart a harley'
mircea_popescu: men reach a certain age where the only way they're fucking anything is if that anything sucks them off first.
mircea_popescu: hence a very cold reception to much younger men's ideas about "couldn't abstain"
mircea_popescu: nigga, say wut ? rape her ? youredoingitwrong.
asciilifeform: in othere news
asciilifeform: we have sata.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 81003 @ 0.0002678 = 21.6926 BTC [-] {3}
mircea_popescu: good news.
asciilifeform: ... aaand
asciilifeform: chucked all the extra crud
asciilifeform: from kernel
asciilifeform: not size that matters so much
asciilifeform: but brain footprint
asciilifeform: drive mounts.
asciilifeform: yes, that weird sandisk.
asciilifeform: sd and usb also work.
asciilifeform: boot time, from end of udev pause, is ~3 sec.
asciilifeform: 927d52a91421ad608ceaf011e56aa91d18f478f81707a8774bc0cbdb146621f5118b35c640b376cdcaef206be98b520802f1f749e387b1b4876d6a6a0d080bd1 turdel-now-with-sata.gz
decimation: asciilifeform: re: rf quiet pc < the original IBM AT came in a heavy metal case, fully shielded
asciilifeform: shielded but for the keyboard, display..
asciilifeform: 'heavy metal case' is not the same as 'tempest shield' regardless of appearances
asciilifeform: though it beats plastic
decimation: asciilifeform: agreed
decimation: but to get actual tempest shield request spending golden toilet money
decimation: the best approximation one can get as a civilian is to purchase FCC "class B" devices
assbot: SST / EMCON TEMPEST Monitors | API Technologies ... ( http://bit.ly/1yodbKb )
decimation: asciilifeform: http://www.theamphour.com/241-an-interview-with-chuck-peddle-charismatic-chipmaking-coryphaeus/ < chuck peddle claims in the middle of this 2.5 hour podcast that his new 'hybrid DRAM/FLASH ssd drive' contains 11 6502 uC's
assbot: An Interview With Chuck Peddle - Charismatic Chipmaking Coryphaeus | The Amp Hour Electronics Podcast ... ( http://bit.ly/1yoevNa )
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes, mod6, mircea_popescu, danielpbarron, punkman, nubbins`, et al:
asciilifeform: achtung, panzers!
asciilifeform: 'Presenting... Build your own Pogotron.'
asciilifeform: tested the result, too
asciilifeform: should take about 20 min. on a typical box, to build the WHOLE ORCHESTRA
asciilifeform: incl. compilers.
assbot: Logged on 24-03-2015 22:31:11; mircea_popescu: well, how soon can we have it ?
asciilifeform: is here.
decimation: congrats asciilifeform
asciilifeform: gentlemen, start yer enginez
decimation: I need to download one from amazon
trinque: bravo
trinque: asciilifeform: am meeting up with ben_vulpes and other friends tonight, and I'll bring along the pogo
mircea_popescu: ah how splendid.
asciilifeform: the cookbook is brutally terse, if any of it isn't obvious plz ask while i'm awake
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron manual asap!
decimation: asciilifeform: was this run on your gentoo box?
asciilifeform: it ought to run on any reasonable unix though
asciilifeform: uses nothing local but gcc
mircea_popescu: anyone know like a nude housekeeper service in dc or something ?
trinque: asciilifeform: I tried the crossdev compile of bitcoind and got as far as boost hell regarding bzip2
decimation: ja but does it depend on particular gcc to bootstrap?
asciilifeform: trinque: note that bitcoind is not included in this yet
trinque: but have working cross compilation tooling otherwise, which farts executibles agreeable to the pogo
trinque: yep
asciilifeform: decimation: i only tried it on 4.8.x
asciilifeform: decimation: if you have something unusually archaic, may have problems
asciilifeform: somebody at least build this plz.
asciilifeform: even if no pogo.
trinque: asciilifeform: ben_vulpes and I shall shortly
asciilifeform: you will get a kernel image (also contains rootfs)
decimation: I'll try on my rhel6 vm
trinque: "hack night"
asciilifeform: the Gb ethernet, 3Gb/s sata, sd card, usb - work
asciilifeform: have not yet tested led or button.
asciilifeform: i also eliminated all the standard crud that kernel wants to have by default - support for usb hid, mice, keyboards, framebuffers, and anything whatsoever whose purpose i did not know
asciilifeform: if i missed something - shoot it, don't hesitate
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33280 @ 0.00027739 = 9.2315 BTC [+]
asciilifeform: one little warning - 'buildroot' is dumb as a rock, you will have to 'make clean all' just about every time
asciilifeform: (every time you change anything)
asciilifeform: doesn't nuke the compiler though, iirc
asciilifeform: a rebuild is about 6 min. on my box.
mircea_popescu: Probably more. << i don't see wut more.
asciilifeform: for those who don't know - 'buildroot' does -not- use your local crossdev tooling, should you have any
asciilifeform: it builds own world.
mircea_popescu: trinque / ben_vulpes hack a uboot module while at it!
asciilifeform: ah and this thing builds uboot
asciilifeform: but i have not tested the one it makes
asciilifeform: i am using the one i made.
trinque: mircea_popescu: what should it do?
mircea_popescu: not necessarily one we'll use, just to get the hang of it
mircea_popescu: it should compile a pogo bitcoind
trinque: I installed uboot on my pogo already
mircea_popescu: bitcoind as ubut module
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i thought about this
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform aha!
trinque: interesting, I'll have to look into precisely what that'd mean
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it isn't a particularly great substitute for a unix, unfortunately
mircea_popescu: which is why i say trinque :)
trinque: lol
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform huge step forward from all the other people way in the back.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: missing any kind of i/o scheduler, or, more importantly, task slicer
asciilifeform: (scheduler)
asciilifeform: (bitcoind is threaded)
trinque: yeah we'll look at it
asciilifeform: or dos port would have been simple.
mircea_popescu: bitcoin is, but the pogo is single core neh ?
mircea_popescu: so then not THAT big of a deal
asciilifeform: this is roughly close in sweat level to an msdos port
trinque: I'm about certain this is beyond the scope of this evening or one six pack of beer
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform who knows what whiz kidz come up with.
trinque: uboot is basically grub for this thing, yeah?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 110920 @ 0.00027739 = 30.7681 BTC [+]
mod6: <+asciilifeform> http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-March/000074.html << congrats on the pogotron, ascii!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i certainly intend to sit bitcoin down on the metal. on possibly even this machine. but will probably use ada's spark bare metal for it.
asciilifeform: and not today.
asciilifeform: trinque: sorta like grub.
mircea_popescu: wait, ada to compile a c environment ?!
asciilifeform: for the final solution.
mircea_popescu: yeah well, at the chestnut cafe, that.
mircea_popescu: trinque grub doesn't actually prep anything, just runs it
asciilifeform: grub does init surprisingly much
asciilifeform: (iirc it can even set up x64 mode if asked)
trinque: mircea_popescu: this is likely out of my league
asciilifeform: but grub is x86-centric
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i've never done that much with it.
trinque: when it comes to how it might poke storage, no idea
trinque: is there some way to bolt a program directly to a kernel?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'menstrual extraction' ?
trinque: seems like you end up with what asciilifeform already has
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i thinbk just plain weird.
mircea_popescu: trinque you could make it a kernel module
asciilifeform also considered this
asciilifeform did not like the lack of process separation inherent in it
asciilifeform: wedged bitcoind - wedged machine
asciilifeform has been thinking about this for a long time.
mircea_popescu: yeah it's not optimal, but he wanted to bolt it.
trinque: I'd have to do some reading before I'm sure what I'd want
mircea_popescu: nevertheless... eventually the only thing bitcoind can be is an os.
asciilifeform: i'd go further
asciilifeform: ... a device.
mircea_popescu: i dunno i'd go for that
mircea_popescu: you may have to change it in a warzone.
asciilifeform: easy to swap device, no ?
mircea_popescu: no. because you don't have a fab.
mircea_popescu: making the code carved in stone is imo a bad move.
asciilifeform: i didn't say 'custom ic'
asciilifeform: i said 'device'
trinque: what's the derpiest unix like kernel this thing would build on?
mircea_popescu: then it's an os.
asciilifeform: as in, a box that isn't used for anything else.
mircea_popescu: oh. well that's what it being an os means he ?
asciilifeform: and custom si doesn't imply 'set in stone' necessarily
asciilifeform: could very easily be a bitcoind-optimized cpu arch.
asciilifeform: (with support for bounds checking and other adaisms)
mircea_popescu: that, sure.
asciilifeform: but this is for after the war.
mircea_popescu: once you got the os, optimize hw for it.
mircea_popescu: no, actually, this will be right in the middle of the war.
asciilifeform: if i make it to the middle - i do it. otherwise, trying to leave enough of a record here for the next fella.
asciilifeform: # uname -a
asciilifeform: Linux therealbitcoin 3.18.1-therealbitcoin.org #2 PREEMPT Sat Mar 28 22:09:20 EDT 2015 armv5tel GNU/Linux
asciilifeform: ^ is what you get if built correctly.
asciilifeform: with your date/time
trinque: asciilifeform: chewing through a gcc build atm, looks good so far
decimation: asciilifeform: sigh "../gnu/at-func.c: In function 'setxattrat': xattr-at.c:36:20: error: too few arguments to function 'setxattr' #define AT_FUNC_F1 setxattr" < I'm looking into it
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 200518 @ 0.00026711 = 53.5604 BTC [-] {3}
asciilifeform: decimation: what machine / gcc ?
nubbins`: <+asciilifeform> achtung, panzers! << woo!
asciilifeform: decimation: because this is a buildrootism and has nothing to do with me
nubbins`: <+cazalla> while i await danielpbarron's response, anyone want to suggest why the pogo flashes green after following his guide after a reboot? <<< i fucked up setting some of the fw_setenv parameters. you'll prolly need to serial into it, next time use fw_printenv to double check all your boot cmds before you commit
asciilifeform: you can printenv from uboot console
asciilifeform: if you have serial port (or the netconsole thing set up)
asciilifeform: likewise setenv
asciilifeform: saveenv
decimation: asciilifeform: it's gcc-4.6 on redhat
nubbins`: cazalla it was something like fw_setenv "boot_xyz='abc'" vs fw_setenv boot_xyz="abc"
asciilifeform: (yes, flashes changes from in itself)
decimation: shit no nevermind I was in the wrong terminal and accidently built on osx :)
nubbins`: saveenv wat? haha, i booted into debian to fw_setenv ;/
asciilifeform: anyway, the two most urgent items on the agenda for this thing are:
asciilifeform: 1) freezing the sourceballs in time
asciilifeform: (virginal buildroot loads them -from the net- and afaik does not check signatures)
asciilifeform: 2) study the package system. the dependencies of bitcoind would ideally be added as packages
mircea_popescu: well you can have it load form your local machine.
asciilifeform: (source packages. there are no other kinds in this)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: buildroot builds and uses own toolchain, in a kind of jail. so it is very convenient to have the whole thing build inside it
asciilifeform: and ultimately stronger, because nothing snarfed in from the os
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i mean, you can trivially make -from the net- = localhost
asciilifeform: aha that yes.
asciilifeform: is what i was speaking of.
mircea_popescu: or w/e convenient trusted host
mircea_popescu: if you wish to save the set you used and sign it, i'll host the lot
asciilifeform: the dl directory
asciilifeform: if it has a package, it won't load again
mircea_popescu: actually i suppose the correct thing would be to move the whole shebang on maillist
mircea_popescu: "packages so and so downloaded so and so "
mircea_popescu: sign and deed it.
mircea_popescu: including full paths would be good too
mircea_popescu: i think colon got taken out
mircea_popescu: !up deedbot-
deedbot-: rejected: 1
mircea_popescu: trinque ^ ?
mircea_popescu: gpg: Good signature from "Stanislav Datskovskiy
asciilifeform: ^ thrown to mailinglist
mod6: is your key imported into the bot?
asciilifeform: wai wat
asciilifeform: i was supposed to -do- something ?
asciilifeform: beyond being in l1 ?
mircea_popescu: gotta import your key.
asciilifeform: syntax?
mircea_popescu: just link it to the bot
mod6: iirc i had to put my pubkey in a dpaste and then do something like `deedbot-: import <dpaste-url>`
deedbot-: Bad URL or network outage.
deedbot-: imported: 17215D118B7239507FAFED98B98228A001ABFFC7
deedbot-: accepted: 1
asciilifeform: there we go.
asciilifeform: it wants .txt
mircea_popescu: oh for crying out loud. yo trinque didntcha say you got rid of the url limiting thing ?
mircea_popescu: o is that what it is ?
asciilifeform: apparently.
trinque: lol
mircea_popescu: someone should write this likbez at some point. yo danielpbarron !
mircea_popescu: did you get wiki editing rights ?
asciilifeform: Mem: 7748K used, 115328K free, 44K shrd, 0K buff, 2768K cached
asciilifeform: ^ some of the 7.7M is the kernel, but most is the ramdisk, which won't exist in the battlefield version
asciilifeform: thus we get almost the entire 128M to play with
asciilifeform: and using small machines becomes thinkable.
asciilifeform: incidentally no reason not to do a rom-able x86 build at some point
asciilifeform: (great for eating as part of a balanced diet with linuxbios)
assbot: Hootoo HT-TM02 Tripmate Nano ... ( http://bit.ly/1G3Twpf )
asciilifeform: (and see log.)
mircea_popescu: !s see log
assbot: 58 results for 'see log' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=see+log
asciilifeform: this is almost linux as it was when it was a joy
asciilifeform: instead of chore
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CFIG] 100 @ 0.0200566 = 2.0057 BTC [-] {6}
trinque: and I'm in via telnet
asciilifeform: (how come almost 8M? u-boot takes gzipped kernels, of course.)
trinque: because I'm a lazy fuck and copied the thing over that filename instead of updating uboot
asciilifeform: trinque: 'turdel' ? or you built with recipe
trinque: built with buildroot, ignore the filename
asciilifeform: congrats trinque !
trinque: I just copied it over what was already in the tftp dir
trinque: congrats to you!
trinque: I merely baked from the recipe
asciilifeform: now who'll be next.
asciilifeform: trinque: and now that you baked, read the patch. it will begin to make sense.
asciilifeform: just thinking,
asciilifeform: there was a time when folks would have -killed- for 128M.
asciilifeform: i remember saving to buy an 8M stick.
asciilifeform: for a year.
asciilifeform: and modern 'brogrammer' wipes his arse with it
decimation: asciilifeform: ok a legit build error "./scripts/Makefile.headersinst:55: *** Missing UAPI file ./include/uapi/linux/netfilter/xt_CONNMARK.h. Stop."
decimation: seems like I am missing a kernel header
asciilifeform: or rather,
asciilifeform: what was building ?
asciilifeform: ('nope' as in, i did not patch anything remotely close to there)
decimation: ah, the linux 3.18.1 headers
decimation: yeah I'm not saying it was your fault
decimation: I'm running 2.6.32
asciilifeform: decimation: hash your manifest
asciilifeform: see earlier thread
asciilifeform: make sure it pulled down the same tarballs
trinque: asciilifeform: patch makes sense, and lol @ skull and crossbones around the telnet in inittab
asciilifeform: trinque: i like to mark code that folks can use to kill themselves, with it
asciilifeform: wherever i go
trinque: good practice
trinque wanders to hack night with pogoplug in tow
asciilifeform: having meatspace friends who program must be fun
mircea_popescu: he lives in a civilised part of teh country.
decimation: asciilifeform: is your manifest missing 'tar'?
decimation: otherwise everything appears to be there
asciilifeform: decimation: i think local tar ends up untarring things
asciilifeform: how else
asciilifeform: i mean, if you lacked tar,
asciilifeform: how would any of it untar
asciilifeform: and already found one small mistake
asciilifeform: dhcpd is built. we never use it
asciilifeform: (what we actually use is busybox's udhcpd)
asciilifeform: can be cut from the buildroot conf.
asciilifeform: i think i also forgot to build any mtd utils
decimation: I mean tar isn't on the manifest
asciilifeform: so can't hack uboot from inside this. yet.
asciilifeform: decimation: of course not. it never gets downloaded
asciilifeform: or, hm, does it
decimation: it's in /dl
asciilifeform: i think we end up using busybox tar
asciilifeform: for the armv5 os, that is
asciilifeform: for the build, it uses local machine's tar.
asciilifeform: busybox, to those new to it, is a unix util userland in more or less 1 executable.
asciilifeform: (symlinked to the usual names)
asciilifeform: it is often found on routers, sex toys, miscellaneous embedded machinery
decimation: okay I think my build error is something to do with the shitty vm cross-mount filesystem and case sensitivity
asciilifeform: oh and another missing ingredient
asciilifeform: exercise for my readers!
asciilifeform: add an unprivileged user.
asciilifeform: you can do this with the file system overlay (see patch and readme) or using buildroot's spiffy user generator (can't help here, never tried)
asciilifeform: bitcoind probably ought to run as other than root.
asciilifeform: (see process separation discussion from earlier thread.)
decimation: 35deaa1d5bf822b74ea13928cb9621b03eafcdd5450c176928b4df72bf27ce64c0ed6c87ff46e3c2958313ffe99ff219c6458d8b82311f04fc5e85a01e3054bb dl/tar-1.28.cpio.gz
asciilifeform: decimation: interesting. no such thing on mine.
asciilifeform: decimation: are you sure you are building with the patch ?
decimation: I'll recreate
asciilifeform: odd then.
asciilifeform: someone will have to discover why.
decimation: ah I might have skipped the make pogoplug_defconfig setup
asciilifeform: aahahahaha.
decimation: ok I'm not building on crazy vm fs
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