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deedbot: << Bimbo.Club - TMSR Summary Log - 9/08/2018
mircea_popescu: certainly circassian hussies.
mircea_popescu: or however you say not-brunette.
diana_coman: asciilifeform, since your udp genesis is using the sha hashes + a "history" file I'm not sure: do you have something against the move to keccak + standard manifest file for v-trees?
asciilifeform: diana_coman: believe or not, i still havent switched to phf's .
asciilifeform: diana_coman: and if there was a moment in the l0gz where mircea_popescu proclaimed 'hey this is out of beta, errybody plox to retire the classical vtrons' -- i missed it? plox to link.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: but to answer the orig q -- i have nuffin against the new format; but not switched yet.
diana_coman: asciilifeform, I don't get it: are you saying you need mircea_popescu to officially declare it something or the other or what?
diana_coman: I wouldn't expect there is such a thread, no; at any rate, last discussion on this I think starts here:
a111: Logged on 2018-07-06 23:15 phf: considering the slow adoption of the keccak approach and also a large number of existing sha512 patches, i'm planning on doing a regrind where i merge the keccak and the sha branches together, so that vpatch/vdiff can produce both hashes on a switch, until further notice.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: this is how we typically do standardizations, yes
diana_coman: the issue at hand is more simply that being sha means it will have to go through regrind at some point and so I'm not very keen on adding to it patches just to have what to regrind later; but maybe that's just me
diana_coman: uhm, wait; you mean you think it might still change and *not* be keccak? or current keccak version not surely if keccak? or...dunno, what?
asciilifeform: diana_coman: i'm not averse to regrinding , if diana_coman already switched ( i managed to sleep through this , somehow, but yes looks like you're in the new format )
asciilifeform: diana_coman: i'm satisfied that your keccak worx
a111: Logged on 2018-07-08 00:14 asciilifeform: i expect that errybody currently tuned in, will use keccak.
asciilifeform: again i had and have 0 objection to the format, or would have said.
diana_coman: cool; I was just surprised + trying to understand what is going on
asciilifeform: diana_coman: what's going on is that asciilifeform has buncha boxen with old tooling, and also tends to rely on mircea_popescu to proclaim 'let's nao new format'
diana_coman: asciilifeform, I know that pain, honestly; I still trip over this change and I wouldn't even say that I have as convenient a workflow with new tooling as I had with old
asciilifeform: hm why is this?
diana_coman: and I actually have both on for now, hence yeah, I just pressed your patch with old V
asciilifeform: i thought phf's was backwards-compat?
diana_coman: I pressed only the keccak branch of phf's
asciilifeform: but why not as convenient, i meant
diana_coman: possibly because I did not yet fully digest the new one (or not as well as old one)
asciilifeform: btw do we have a full spec for the new form posted somewhere ?
diana_coman: asciilifeform, not full as far as I'm aware; there is re manifest
asciilifeform: diana_coman: the 1 thing that still bothers me is that same file extension was kept for new v as for old
diana_coman: asciilifeform, I can see the point given how often I went already "oh, this is /not is keccak/sha"
asciilifeform: not even speaking out of concern for heathens ( tho they do read my www and occasionally try to build the proggies ) but for tripping over own feet
diana_coman: my approach has been: try with keccak; if fails, for now at least, try with old sha-based
asciilifeform: really imho oughta switch the extension. note that this requires no regrind.
diana_coman: I can fully see the point to that, certainly
asciilifeform: i'm not averse to regrinding things, vtron that understands 2 types of hash inside 1 tree is prolly too much to ask for; but at the very least i gotta be able to distinguish old form from new by file ext., for own workflow.
asciilifeform: would also like to have (but afaik we dun have?) a mechanical converter from old to new, so that all i gotta do is re-seal
asciilifeform: hey mod6 , didja ever switch to new format in trb ?
asciilifeform: did i also somehow sleep through this
diana_coman: in other pleasant surprises, this generic thing in ada is very useful
asciilifeform: diana_coman: there's a caveat tho
a111: Logged on 2018-09-14 16:02 asciilifeform: the only lang feature that gets in the way of this partitioning is 'generics', but iirc diana_coman did not use these anywhere
asciilifeform: it prevents full modularization, in that the restrictions that hold in the library begin to apply to the called
asciilifeform: err, caller
diana_coman: asciilifeform, yes, atm I'm looking at it for the test harness, for which I think it fits great (since I wouldn't want to go writing 1-65535 explicitly if I can help it)
asciilifeform: at least this was so in the old gnat
asciilifeform: diana_coman: how did you make the receiver eat unexpected sizes ?
diana_coman: atm I'm just playing around with generic to wrap my head around it! lol; but receiver can haz max size and then report, no?
diana_coman: if you have a better idea, please expand
asciilifeform: you would have to make small change tho, to make it report size, mine does not ( only 'valid' , i.e. full size, or 'invalid' )
asciilifeform: can simply replace the bool param with a 'actualsize' one, for experiment
asciilifeform: diana_coman: the way i'd do the size shuffle, is to use a kindergarten prng (e.g. mersenne) for repeatable sequence, and put ~in~ the packets, a serial num. then simply record what comes out.
asciilifeform: but prolly this was obv already
asciilifeform: ( then can clearly see, 'this one - lost', 'this - reordered', etc )
asciilifeform: and put the local time in the payload, can then measure latency in 1 direction, to the limit of clock sync
diana_coman: not a bad idea at all; at it's simplest I was thinking simply serial numbering the payloads and logging on both sides since putting together the 2 logs afterwards is straightforward, 1-line thing
asciilifeform: also worx
asciilifeform: making the run repeatable is useful imho tho.
asciilifeform: see how ~particular~ sequence goes through various paths.
asciilifeform: and will be interesting if results differ when ~direction~ is switched.
asciilifeform: i suspect that the experiment could expose backbone diddlage..
diana_coman: heh, that would be interesting to see at least, yes
diana_coman: anyways, will wait for mircea_popescu to weigh in on this too; atm I still need to set up the main stuff and then those are params to adjust/set as required
asciilifeform: will also be interesting if results are found to differ when one end is in mircea_popescustan, etc
asciilifeform: ( and i'd like to try from here, also )
diana_coman: once it's ready, I'll publish it anyway and I don't see any reason why one couldn't run it anywhere they want it, ofc
asciilifeform: i also suspect that results will differ when 1 box is behind a konsoomer nat thing, vs. when both ends are 'adult' (naked ipv4)
asciilifeform: ( observe that it is actually impossible to do the thing if both are inside nat )
asciilifeform: unless of course both inside ~same~ nat ( i.e. on 1 lan )
asciilifeform: !Q later tell BingoBoingo crate has sat in montevideo customs for third day nao, and still no word from either dhl or orcs. possibly go there an' see ?
asciilifeform: hm, bot dead ?
mod6: << No, haven't done anything as of yet. Still using SHA512 and my vtron.
a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 13:04 asciilifeform: hey mod6 , didja ever switch to new format in trb ?
mod6: To me, I'd like to see just one trb-vtree, one set of patches. And if that means moving to keccac, then we will, and that'll be the only set of vpatches that The Foundation will distribute. (Otherwise I think it's too confusing, and time consuming to publish future vpatches in both.)
mod6: Before we embark on an entire regrind of the trb-vtree to use keccac, I think we just need a major release version of a "defacto" vtron that supports both SHA512 (for other legacy projects) and keccac. Sounds like phf's might fit the bill, but want to ensure that when the Foundation tackles this problem, it's on very stable footing.
asciilifeform: mod6: imho this would be ideal, yes
diana_coman: fwiw I was talking strictly of *new* stuff for now; notice that I did *not* regrind eucrypt either - that can wait; new stuff however should use keccak imo
asciilifeform: i dun even disagree with mircea_popescu's 'if it's still alive, it oughta be reground' item. but at the very least oughta be able to read the old trees with new tool and determine that somebody's regrind is actually bit-identical to the original, without burning several days per instance
asciilifeform: diana_coman: entirely fair point. i simply dun have the new one in my workflow yet, is all
asciilifeform: but will note, the situation where i gotta keep multiple vtrons around, one for this-here, one for that-there, ( ftr i've been using my orig since aug '15 ) is imho suboptimal.
asciilifeform: and the thing where both types of patch have same extension and are not visually distinguishable, is intolerable.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: They called me, going to their office. Some bullshit about "personas fisicas" and already having two imports.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: lemme know how it goes. this is 1st time i hear of any such thing re 'can only have 2 imports'
BingoBoingo: I was under the impression that there is a limit of 3 tax free imports under $200, which should not be relevant considering there's an import deposit
asciilifeform: aha, we paid the orc tax !
a111: Logged on 2018-09-14 16:42 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo, mod6 , ben_vulpes : ordered ! 308.28 orcbux ( 62.18 of'em orc fee, 37.21 -- postage, the rest -- 8 drives and pack of 20 adhesive hedgehogs )
asciilifeform: wtf is even the point of lulazon collecting it, if result is exactly same as if i mailed the crate myself
asciilifeform: betcha if i'd mailed'em wrapped in old newspaper in a standard letter envelope, you'd already have'em, and we could be fiddybux richer.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i suspect that lulazon simply pockets that 62.18, and the orcs never see it; or alternatively, an orc pockets, off-record, and then pretends 'was 1 of 2 max free imports'
asciilifeform: how the fuck else would $crate count as 'free'
asciilifeform: and for that matter the previous 2 crates.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: i like the new v format, but i also very strongly wish to avoid coming to resemble the urbit people, with their 'aah we restarted the universe for the 7th time'
asciilifeform: if new vtron allows mechanical preservation of ~continuity~ , i.e. i can determine mechanically that a reground tree is in fact same as the old but-for-the-hashes, then all is ok. but if not, this'd be essentially same as throwing past 3rs of historicity away.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Well, I am still waiting on a birthday card from February sent through the post
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: troo
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: go an' hassle'em
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: note, all 3 crates, has the deposit paid !
asciilifeform: where did it ~go~ ?!
BingoBoingo: Pull the invoice off of the Amazon orders page and get it to me. I want to show the fuckers the line for the import tax deposit.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: pdf worx ?
BingoBoingo: it does
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: do me a favour and cut out my orig postage addr before handing these to orcs
asciilifeform: << btw mod6 , diana_coman , one possible cut of the knot would be if new vtron were to have algo where it tries keccak 1st, then if fails, tries sha512 and ~loudly warns~ ( can be off by default , and enabled on cmdline )
a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 14:42 mod6: Before we embark on an entire regrind of the trb-vtree to use keccac, I think we just need a major release version of a "defacto" vtron that supports both SHA512 (for other legacy projects) and keccac. Sounds like phf's might fit the bill, but want to ensure that when the Foundation tackles this problem, it's on very stable footing.
asciilifeform: ( my current understanding is that errything ~else~ in vpatch format, remained same ? )
asciilifeform: there is the manifest, but afaik it doesn't get machine-parsed
asciilifeform: phf: plox to correct me if i'm wrong here
asciilifeform: unrelatedly, am i the only one who reads these, ? some of these have atrocious mistakes, e.g. 'flashing the uboot with the dram from vendor did not do anything detectable' << rom, not 'dram', lol
a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 08:29 deedbot: << Bimbo.Club - TMSR Summary Log - 9/08/2018
asciilifeform: i did not say anyffing re 'trinque is upgrading to 486DX2 for alf', but it prolly merits a mention also.
asciilifeform: oh hey, guten morgen, mircea_popescu
mod6: asciilifeform: yeah, i've been trying to keep up with
mircea_popescu: hey hey.
asciilifeform: mod6: i dun like to discourage folx, esp. mircea_popescu's pupil, who is evidently pouring sweat into the job. but i expected the items would get better with time, and imho so far they haven't
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so did i! point in case : so far, they haven't!
a111: Logged on 2018-08-28 16:51 mircea_popescu: also, a) gotta start somewhere ; b) she's not working to impress you, she's working to impress me, meaning your only productive stance is "not like that, like ~this~" rather than "your work doesn't make the cut".
mircea_popescu: this isn't going to become a monthly cycle, is it ? "i don't like this vtree" "do you have a patch ?" "no, i just don't like it" "well... come back with a patch"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'ma leave it there, after all the chix is yer student, not mine
mircea_popescu: i dun see a problem with criticism, but it gotta be criticism. it gotta critique. "this, specifically ~this~ is wrong" "that, exactly that, is missing". something.
mircea_popescu: otherwise what is this, timeo mulieris et dona ferentes ?
asciilifeform: i'ma formulate all subsequent ones as ' s/foo/bar ', as i do for BingoBoingo
asciilifeform: simple enuff.
mircea_popescu: by all means, formulate it as "bitch, you're fucking stupid", but formulate it in some manner i can get behind.
asciilifeform: it is prolly too much to ask for kindergartener to actually grasp the contents of the academy of sciences minutes she is reading; but perhaps it is possible with help.
mircea_popescu: think of the whole opposability angle, will you. 1. alf : "your summaries suck" 2. bimbo "master, is this true ?" now i'm stuck. i'm not going to do a 3.b. "yes, because i like him" and i can't do a 3.a. "yes, because ~SOMETHING~" as the something's an undefined symbol.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i dun disagree.
mircea_popescu: and kindergarten academy of science bla bla. i have children read shakespeare and why shouldn't i.
asciilifeform: shakespeare is slightly easier, what with 500 yrs of linguists.
mircea_popescu: what, they're not gonna fucking "understand" it ?! what, really, you understand the logs ? who the fuck understands the logs!
mircea_popescu: the renoirs in "where's the renoirs" were produced through the act of "here's this cappod'opera, summarize it"
diana_coman: heh, if I'd insist my child read *only* what he understood, he couldn't possibly read ~anything!
mircea_popescu: diana_coman and necessarily derive no benefit from it.
mircea_popescu: after all, he understands it already.
diana_coman: all I insist on is that he either asks someone or otherwise check in dict for words he doesn't yet know
asciilifeform: diana_coman: asciilifeform reads things he dun fully understand, all day, erry day, i dun disagree.
mircea_popescu: just because i humiliate her, in this as in so many ways, she has to publish her struggle, dun mean it's somehow categorically different. erryone has piles of "this is what i understand of y"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it's a great experiment, and imho entirely possible that the horse will eventually learn to sing.
mircea_popescu: spreading works already.
asciilifeform: verily.
PeterL: << wouldn't you just get the vpatch from the old and new vdiff'ers and run diff on them, the only difference should be the hashes?
a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 15:19 asciilifeform: if new vtron allows mechanical preservation of ~continuity~ , i.e. i can determine mechanically that a reground tree is in fact same as the old but-for-the-hashes, then all is ok. but if not, this'd be essentially same as throwing past 3rs of historicity away.
mircea_popescu: ideally.
asciilifeform: PeterL: as i currently understand : yes. but ideally this simple mechanism would be in the tool, rather than a - style shell hack.
PeterL: well, anybody interested would sign the diff-of-diffs, and then everybody switches to using the new format, no need to have it locked into the program if you are only using it once at the change over
mircea_popescu: yes, the group is yet small enough and cohesive enough we can just do a deed and stuff.
diana_coman: tbh if I were to critique her summaries I'd start pretty much from same point as with the 5yo i.e. the way they are know they read as if she doesn't actually have any idea what those terms she uses there mean even at a basic level and she doesn't even flag them as such (i.e. "hey, this afiejif wtf is it???"); to the extent that it all ends up as mechanical re-phrasing, it's quite stupid
mircea_popescu: i don't think she dares ask, partly because she spent most of her life with engineers and partly because check out how irrational the process became the moment she showed up. this not common, this, freebased cvasicriticism, in the annals.
mircea_popescu: tis not common*
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: expand re the engineers point
PeterL: it would be much more useful if the summary included a link to the relevant part of the log, so that if an item is of interest one could read more detail
mircea_popescu: but yes, on spotcheck she could produce long form of ftp and deduce long form for isp out of "- mircea_popescu suspects that iptables is like php implementation of ftp - most people do not have their own isp"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in the girl's own words, "only interested in their being right".
asciilifeform: ah this must be different species of engineer than what asciilifeform grew up with..
mircea_popescu: this seems even perfectly reasonable, who wouldn't want to be right, until you understand the undertone. which eminently was "and perfectly willing to put on the adequate blinders for this effect"
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, well, how does she evaluate if they are right?
mircea_popescu: it never was her job to do that.
asciilifeform: rarest skill is -- to teach, rather 'be right'
asciilifeform: sorta how anybody can butcher, but not errybody -- surgeon with 'bedside manner'
mircea_popescu: her job historically was to keep overgrown idiots from running head first into bureaucratic machinery./
diana_coman: ah, as in: in them being what you asked of her? that's fine, sure
mircea_popescu: wait, what ?
asciilifeform: *rather than
diana_coman: mircea_popescu> asciilifeform in the girl's own words, "only interested in their being right". -> is this re her summaries being right or what?
diana_coman: or the engineers? lol
a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 16:37 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: expand re the engineers point
mircea_popescu: !!up nicoleci
deedbot: nicoleci voiced for 30 minutes.
diana_coman: aha, got it; mixed up there, ok
mircea_popescu: check it out nicoleta, you're like the topic!
asciilifeform: hmm i thought nicoleci is self-voicing
asciilifeform: !!gettrust nicoleci
deedbot: L1: 0, L2: 1 by 1 connections.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform normally ; her key machine is currently without a working nic because no cable and no working wifi.
asciilifeform: !!rate nicoleci 1 mircea_popescu's pupil; log summaries
asciilifeform: !!v 8B2E390E09066888A82E6901A1FA657A87826C4885C77E1EA157E008DC529922
deedbot: asciilifeform rated nicoleci 1 << mircea_popescu's pupil; log summaries
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ah
mircea_popescu: it's hard, mang.
asciilifeform: how did it happen, i cant resist to ask ? hanbot's duck ate cable ?
nicoleci: my only hope is the dongle
mircea_popescu: nah, put her in a cage that just dun have cat5
asciilifeform: lol! severe cage, this
mircea_popescu: think how your own sanity would fare, alfie!
diana_coman: <mircea_popescu> this seems even perfectly reasonable, who wouldn't want to be right, until you understand the undertone. which eminently was "and perfectly willing to put on the adequate blinders for this effect" -> imo that is better expressed as "only interested in not being wrong" - quite different from being interested in being right
asciilifeform: at least give the poor critter a rs232 SLIP!111
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i've toiled in cages where even gsm barely penetrated, not even speaking of cables, so i can picture.
mircea_popescu: why ? let her suffer.
asciilifeform: what's she logged in with nao, i wonder, morse key ?
mircea_popescu: diana_coman right you are indeed. i take it you're also familiar ?
asciilifeform: i'd give a morse key.
mircea_popescu: nicoleci PeterL has a point : start adding a log link to the summary lines, so people can look further if they want.
asciilifeform: tidididididadadda...
a111: Logged on 2014-04-25 20:09 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu:
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, yes, it's not exactly a rare thing unfortunately
asciilifeform: diana_coman: i'd say this formulation describes bureaucrat, not engineer, but yes i am aware that they've recently hybridized into a strange mule species, bureau-engineer
mircea_popescu: where's smith gonna hire actual engineers.
asciilifeform: not without a working time machine, right
nicoleci: mircea_popescu: sure i will do so, thats a good suggestion.
asciilifeform tried (and failed spectacularly) over recent yrs , in various contexts, to hire 'actual engineer'
mircea_popescu: it is the regular shock of everyone here that everyone else here exists. prolly should be the topic, really.
nicoleci: and suffering i am using a chromebook of all things..
asciilifeform: lol!! that very same chromebook ??
asciilifeform: i.e. stock c101?
mircea_popescu: there's more than one!
asciilifeform: there's 9000...
nicoleci: diana_coman: lol!
asciilifeform: but it'd be extra lulzy if mircea_popescu had given nicoleci that one
mircea_popescu: there's over 9000, really...
asciilifeform: i'm almost surprised that even webirc worx on that thing
asciilifeform: it's the tightest cage short of, idk, a vt100
nicoleci: may i also point out that its a very engineer thing to say, actual engineer
diana_coman: ahahah, I can see where she's coming from
mircea_popescu: how subtle the sweetness of the nature of delusions is!
mircea_popescu: nicoleci you know what "no true scotsman" means ?
asciilifeform: it used to be this profession, y'know, like bakers, butchers
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform never.
mircea_popescu: it used to want to be, and enver got there.
mircea_popescu: engineering is the donner party of professions.
nicoleci: mircea_popescu: no idea
mircea_popescu: nicoleci in the classical formulation, at a time when scottish-english rivalry was a poignant affair, respectable middleclass scot was depicted sitting in his tea chair with the newspaper, and reading about a linconlshire rapist and murderer
mircea_popescu: "no scotman would do such a thing"
mircea_popescu: the next day, same man, same chair, newspaper tells tale of this wolverhampton rapist murderer arsonist & jaiwalker
mircea_popescu: "no TRUE scotsman would do such a thing".
mircea_popescu: meh, wolverhampton is actually in the midlands. whatever, switch in london and edinburgh, the point is -- one always has a further mind into which to retreat & even nobler suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune.
asciilifeform: still seems to me that at one time there were engineers. built such things as 'great eastern' steamer etc.
mircea_popescu: you know they propped the great railroad on top of snow and it collapsed ?
asciilifeform: aand in less time than costs today to get next model of toyota.
mircea_popescu: they just wanted to get it across already!
asciilifeform: rright and at one time surgeons spread peripueral fever erry day. but mircea_popescu for some reason does not say 'there never were surgeons, never quite got there'
mircea_popescu: engineering never was an honest profession. much like medicine. it always wanted to be, and most of the time very earnestly tried to be. but it never actuially made it ; not at the time of the organixcally-multilayer-compensated grandfather clocks, not at the time of steam engine, not at the time of tanks and planes, not at any one time.
mircea_popescu: i JUST DID lmao
asciilifeform: then agreed.
asciilifeform: entirely similar.
nicoleci: mircea_popescu: ahh i see.
mircea_popescu: understand how professional medicine is : i am myself, and this fellow is a most eminent specialist in his field, with decades of practice in the us, and in his entire being as perfectly intellectually respectable as i could ever ask for.
mircea_popescu: we talk about a pain. i go in with one idea, he examines and has a different idea. the quality of his examination is such that i yield in the process, and gladly. look that indeed, clinical practice does something, it's evident he's got a better scent than i had.
mircea_popescu: labwork shows up third and entirely unrelated cause
mircea_popescu: profession ? i never yet that baker confused by the loaf of bread.
mircea_popescu: never yet met*
nicoleci: so what would you call the people who made the grandfather clocks, steam engine.. etc?
mircea_popescu: engineers. which, you have to understand, is an import from french, where it meant "ingenuity-ist"
mircea_popescu: and this at a time when the major problem of the french was the resurection of socrates' daimon, "the genius in things"
asciilifeform: i suspect if baking were an affair where ~erry~ yeast cell gotta agree, or nuffin happens , or at the very least a horror in the vein of , would resemble the engineer's toil
a111: Logged on 2017-08-28 20:29 asciilifeform: kanzure: i and ~50 other folx, lost jobs, because it proved ~impossible to persistently force $valuableprotein secretion in ecoli
mircea_popescu: there was never a time ingenuity, specifically as this almost-endearing-often-infuriating-wilful-blindness was never part of the term.
mircea_popescu: !!up nicoleci
deedbot: nicoleci voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i suspect that the 'blinders' are to some extent an immutable cost of the process, required for the directed thrust at $problem. sorta how knife is only sharp on 1 , at most 2 edges
nicoleci: diana_coman: i think its what hanbot calls the bathroom :)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform entirely possible. but the whole art then becomes : "how not to fuck onself over while in trance".
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i also suspect that this is why it requires at least 2 people. sorta how sniper worx 9000x better in pair with spotter.
mircea_popescu: this theory at least seems to work well so far.
asciilifeform: for n00bz, sniper has naked eyes + his scope thing, shows a coupla of degrees of far-away place, head-sized; spotter has naked eyes + telescope and isn't holding 8kg of hand cannon, can move around a bit moar
asciilifeform: the pathology of current-day shit-engineering is imho twofold -- bureaucrats reacted to quack engineers, with poor upbringing, who 'i dun need no stinkin' spotter' by creating hybrid species , bureau-engineer, who 'i dun need no stinkin' book-larnin', i watched 'intro to rails' film' etc
asciilifeform: resulting chimera is neither fish nor fowl, has all of the 'self-blessing' cocksureness of a general, and ~none of the technical ability of the old engineer, and somehow asked to fill in for both
nicoleci: wow you know, i was just about to say the same thing
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo didja get dekulakized ?
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Not yet. Encountered another level of mud hut retardation.
mircea_popescu: mazel tov.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: expand?
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: DHL's line at the level I engaged them so far is "Personas fisicas" get 2 dispatched "compras de exterior" paying tax and all that. In spite of more than two already making it through thus far DHL's niggers are stuck on this. But there's another level of insanity to this retardation.
mircea_popescu: but you're not from there ?!
diana_coman: nicoleci, lol
BingoBoingo: "personas fisicas" also get to make THREE compras de exterior without taxes provided they are under 200 U$S and 20 kilos which can be tracked here and only shows an incoming test parcel I've got inbound.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo dude, this is for their local morons. you're not a local.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Right, which means the next task is finding someone in DHL who can understand that. That I am a BUSINESS, man.
mircea_popescu: well is your business registered and the name on the packaging ? if no, then no.
mircea_popescu: but the feeble mercantilism attempts they implement can't possibly apply to non-yokels, wtf.
mircea_popescu: << there was a whole thread about wtf, stop with the sha already, yes.
a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 12:34 asciilifeform: diana_coman: this is how we typically do standardizations, yes
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: canhaz link to 'hey folx, phf's vtron out of beta, let's regrind trb etc nao' ?
mircea_popescu: the idea was "no more new work on sha, regrind old work at leisure"
a111: Logged on 2018-07-08 00:05 mircea_popescu: keccak came out of that. it's all in the logs.
mircea_popescu: << plain statement of the principle.
a111: Logged on 2018-03-25 19:40 mircea_popescu: follow the mainline. whole fucking point is to move vpatching to keccak mechanism. don't genesis on the old style why would you.
asciilifeform: i'm 100% in favour, so long as can use new file extension and not trip over own old patches. ( afaik phf's tool does not marry .vdiff string hardcodedly ? )
asciilifeform: even ok with regrinding the udp piece
asciilifeform: given as its 2d old
mircea_popescu: but yes -- the idea very sharply is : use keccak for new work ; whenever have the time and inclination move old work to keccak tree also.
mircea_popescu: this i believe is the only sane approach.
mircea_popescu: now as to new extensions... imo bad idea. there's manifests and things now.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: right now asciilifeform , diana_coman , errybody, has buncha vdiff laying around, not only on www but on own disks, and serious problem if gotta stab at it by hand erry time to see which it is.
mircea_popescu: date no good ?
mircea_popescu: you got ls -l on your box like erryone else, yes ?
asciilifeform: nope, often gets reset when copied via net
mircea_popescu: thjat is so fucking stupid...
mircea_popescu: i currently dun know a pill for this ; but no new extensions, it's a terrible move.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the 1 other pill i was able to think of , was , but i dun expect you'll find it much better
a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 15:32 asciilifeform: << btw mod6 , diana_coman , one possible cut of the knot would be if new vtron were to have algo where it tries keccak 1st, then if fails, tries sha512 and ~loudly warns~ ( can be off by default , and enabled on cmdline )
mircea_popescu: no, afaik this is ~what we came to in discussion with phf re support last.
asciilifeform: oh hm was it
asciilifeform: so this is in the current tool ?
mircea_popescu: unless im well confused.
asciilifeform: i'ma let phf clarify, otherwise it'll have to wait until i have a free hand and read his item properly, might be coupla days
asciilifeform: unless diana_coman or mod6 remembers
mircea_popescu: but anyway : NO NEW WORK ON SHA PLOX. USE KECCAK.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: expand re why dun like 'new extension', e.g. '.v'
mircea_popescu: because it fragments the sensata-perceptible identity of the v.
asciilifeform: it's already fragged, neh
mircea_popescu: i dun want to hinder brains to serve computers.
asciilifeform: already hindered in this way, tho, as cost of making the switch
asciilifeform: imho not being able to tell the 2 formats apart externally is ~moar~ pain
mircea_popescu: << "granpa, why is this extension 75 characters long ?" "well see sonny boy, back in the day of planet earth they decided to keep changing it, and well... time passed, and wel... you now must type 75 characters of history you don't know"
a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 16:22 mircea_popescu: think of the whole opposability angle, will you. 1. alf : "your summaries suck" 2. bimbo "master, is this true ?" now i'm stuck. i'm not going to do a 3.b. "yes, because i like him" and i can't do a 3.a. "yes, because ~SOMETHING~" as the something's an undefined symbol.
phf: asciilifeform: the approach that came out of last thread was "explicit flag", i.e. -t sha/keccak, but attempting to hash both then choosing one if one succeeds or bail as you suggested is not bad, though dwimy
mircea_popescu: phf i just read his thing in terms of "explicit flag, k by default".
phf: mircea_popescu: no i think he's saying "try to hash in both formats and then make a guess if one of the formats succeed"
mircea_popescu: well no. "try keccak, if it fails let operator opt to try sha".
asciilifeform: btw if operator has option of enabling 'try sha', can make keccak continuations of old tree, without regrinds
asciilifeform: (until reground)
asciilifeform: e.g. i can put out ch12 of ffa on keccak.
mircea_popescu: no dude, all this is whole-tree
mircea_popescu: there's no by-patch state machine wtf is wrong with you.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: no new state machine needed
mircea_popescu: next im gonna implement perl in v
asciilifeform: srsly, exactly same logic as in existing vtron, with the exception of 'when hashing, try keccak 1st, then sha, THEN compare equality, if found to be the latter, warn user, and if sha not enabled, eggog'
mircea_popescu: just stop.
phf: asciilifeform: please to clarify, do you mean that you can say run "./vpatch < foo" and if that fails you run it as "./vpatch -t sha < foo". or are you saying "./vpatch < foo" and it attempts to, internally, first keccak then sha?
asciilifeform: phf: no, per hash invocation. but loox like mircea_popescu dun like this method, would rather have the trees reground sooner than later.
mircea_popescu: same-hash whole tree, what.
asciilifeform: ergo i'd like to make the operation mechanical, to the extent is reasonable.
asciilifeform: where the machine bakes 'same tree, new hash algo' and errything else is bitwise-same, then i go an' unsheath launch coads, and bake new seals.
asciilifeform: i put 9000 hrs into reading trb, i do not have these 9000 to do it exactly same again nao.
mircea_popescu: this is conceivably a useful tool, but imo not properly thought of as "vtron".
asciilifeform: oughta be same procedure as , but in the tool, imho.
mircea_popescu: vcompare, takes sha tree and keccak tree, and certifies whether same tree or not same tree.
asciilifeform: a new operator ( no , i dun think we've seen the last of new sane folx, tho mircea_popescu may disagree ) oughta be in possession of the complete kit when he sets up his vtron.
asciilifeform: which complete kit oughta be able to follow the continuity of e.g. trb to day1.
mircea_popescu: i always suspected alf wants to write this for himself by himself lest corruption ; but nothing wrong with published imago.
asciilifeform: even if with some hand work.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i long ago gave up trying to maintain 'the one and only vtron' lol
asciilifeform: hence mod6 et al
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so you're saying this compare should be a flag in vtron, whereby it takes a sha and a keccak tree and spits out yes/no ?
asciilifeform: my orig. worked for 3yrs nao in my own hands, but had obvious limitations, and i did not expect it'd live 4evah
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: correct.
mircea_popescu: phf this make any sense to you ?
asciilifeform: and can produce a keccak tree from a sha tree, with the exception of the seals, in such a way that i can be assured that i'm signing same material.
asciilifeform: (but for the hashes)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform why would IT do that ? you just purge the patches, hash and sign, and then have it verify
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: right, purge, but 1st gotta make new ones, that are known to contain same material
asciilifeform: i can do it with shell ( as quoted from trb experiment list earlier ) easily enuff. but there is also the ~reader~ side, who wants to verify continuity.
asciilifeform: e.g. mod6 .
asciilifeform: or even entirely new people, should some be birthed.
phf: mircea_popescu: i have a set of tools like that on top of vpatch/vdiff, but they are entirely expressable as a 5-10 line shell scripts, and their variety is multitude "convert this sha set to keccak set" "see if these two sets press to same" "press all the intermediate states into separate folders" etc. etc. but i think what he's trying to get is a tool that will say "these keccaks are same as these shas so you don't have to reread"
mircea_popescu: what do you mean "make new ones" ? << to replace "- D49E7AAAB38507FD69E6629B8BAAE80BC87D2071C842C8EDE6F2D8E54F87E7D439C79B9A38AD94591E6FD5CF96196F2221426A4C8A2FFB282030FBCF810C18FB
mircea_popescu: + E76829B2488665287ED6037EAA5DD4651A67DDC9A44111089F55249248B6549387B9146BB1E51CC5A659558805BCF8987C10ECAD8478F83FC5EB165044AC5D3C" with w/e keccak says, you mean ?
mircea_popescu: phf i honestly thought ~everyone with half hour's interest does have the ~same dozen lines of bash, and so neve rsaid a word of it. i dunno why he doesn't.
mircea_popescu: but the point is : given a sha tree, the operator thereby produces the keccak tree, and then the tool verifies these are the same, and there you go.
mircea_popescu: why would i have baked into vtron something that a) is unlikely to ever be used again, past this year and b) works much better in bash anyway and is rather trivial to do
a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 13:14 asciilifeform: diana_coman: the way i'd do the size shuffle, is to use a kindergarten prng (e.g. mersenne) for repeatable sequence, and put ~in~ the packets, a serial num. then simply record what comes out.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'd be entirely satisfied if it were a separate util, that came 'with' vtron, also.
mircea_popescu: imo we're getting close to a golden standard udp tester.
phf: i believe this might be a groundhog day thread
mircea_popescu: i have nfi.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'm quite looking forward to learning the answer to 'how big packet'
asciilifeform: ( all i got so far is dusty tomes & hearsay , re subj )
asciilifeform: also will be hilarious to expose backbone ticklings.
mircea_popescu: provided of course personas fisicas de republica oriental can receive more than 2 packets a year.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i admit i was surprised to have been able to mail ~anyffing~ there, knew there gotta be a catch
asciilifeform: initially worked on assumption that no mail at all.
asciilifeform: loox like mircea_popescu's old observation 'they wanna tax, not prohibit commerce' was optimistic tho. the orcs ~want~ to die
mircea_popescu: what i meant by "mercantilism" is that they do not want the locals to leak dollars back into the ubers of the world.
mircea_popescu: which they mindlessly will otherwise.
asciilifeform: right, makes sense
asciilifeform: sorta su-like dynamic
phf: as BingoBoingo continues living in orcland and his subtle mannerisms lose the imperial edge the locals no longer perceive him as a white sahib, soon attempt to "back to work, nigger" him
asciilifeform: fwiw asciilifeform was able to make use of 'sahib' dynamic to get crates through orc customs
asciilifeform: 'i represent $corp ! will call home, there will be problems '
a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 03:11 Mocky: construction workers for their 2022 world cup stadii firmly in gulag, unpaid for year+, dying at a rate of 1 every 2 days, according to The Guardian ~2014
BingoBoingo: Anyways, looks like the rest of this week is finding out how the plasticrap makes it in
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: via Officially blessed channels, i'd expect
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: didja ever ask that shop keeper ?
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: also plox to clarify, at this point is the disk crate a total loss ?
a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 15:11 asciilifeform: betcha if i'd mailed'em wrapped in old newspaper in a standard letter envelope, you'd already have'em, and we could be fiddybux richer.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> BingoBoingo: also plox to clarify, at this point is the disk crate a total loss ? Will hopefully find out by Friday or Monday.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: further below in l0gz, is
a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 15:20 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Well, I am still waiting on a birthday card from February sent through the post
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> BingoBoingo: didja ever ask that shop keeper ? << Their answer was sufficiently vague as to be useless
mircea_popescu: what, granma used to hbe a gun moll, put a benjie in the card ?
BingoBoingo: Apparently there was a cheque in the card
mircea_popescu: gun turrets, when ?
asciilifeform: uboat delivery, when!11
mircea_popescu: << this principle is perfectly sound, nobody wants "throw away"/
a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 15:19 asciilifeform: if new vtron allows mechanical preservation of ~continuity~ , i.e. i can determine mechanically that a reground tree is in fact same as the old but-for-the-hashes, then all is ok. but if not, this'd be essentially same as throwing past 3rs of historicity away.
asciilifeform: rright, was whole substance of thread. asciilifeform is not in luvv with sha, does not yearn to use it 4evah
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform incidentally, small & thereby entirely undetectable surfaceboat (like the us army troop transporters, back in the day there was such a thing as an us army or troops) would prolly work perfectly well.
mircea_popescu: hitch two jerrycans together, one with the fuel, the other with the engine navigation and payload, and w/e, two weeks to port.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the columbian folx are at the forefront, as i understand, of this tech.
mircea_popescu: more like at the butt of it, but w/e.
asciilifeform: but they have the turnover to support the fixed costs, and we not yet
mircea_popescu: niggers nigger-rig.
asciilifeform: if they're butt, who then front, i'm curious
mircea_popescu: ~nobody. who was at front of surgery in 1800 ?
asciilifeform: or is this one of those 2-arsed beasts
phf: a plus of this approach is that asciilifeform will be able to live out his boat life fantasy
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: recall the 'battery for flying 10kg to buenos aires' thread btw
asciilifeform: phf: human pilot is insanity
mircea_popescu: this is a) not flight and b) not electric.
asciilifeform: arithmetic still worx on it tho
asciilifeform: potentially could answer, 'how', 'with what'
phf: take port in la perla san juan on the way, drink mescal with the zetas, etc.
asciilifeform: if we had the hands that are skilled in this, we wouldn't be having the thread nao, would we.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: even for robotic ship, i suspect electric wins, with e.g. pv panels can have ~unlimited endurance, and quiet.
asciilifeform: ( so what if 'can take 2wks, can take 3, depending on currents', sun still shines )
mircea_popescu: diesel is 10MW/kg. this means that 1 jerrycan of diesel can take two jerrycans however far 7500 miles or so.
mircea_popescu: absolutely not.
asciilifeform: diesel can also be heard from 20km, tho
asciilifeform: gift for usg.
mircea_popescu: yeah right. a gift like season tickets for baseball are a gift. "here's a gift that will take 5k in bills to '''enjoy'''".
mircea_popescu: hear is one thing. go find.
asciilifeform: erry ~week they find, neh, some schmuck with cocayacht
mircea_popescu: this is not yacht. this is a 50kg displacement, 1inch above water item.
mircea_popescu: unfindable.
asciilifeform: ( fwiw i have nfi how many not-find, is q above asciilifeform's paygrade )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i.e. ~torpedo ?
mircea_popescu: understand : "standard" yacht, say a 33 foot boat, has ~5ton displacement, and its tank (150-200 liters) will take it say maybe 300 miles if driven 6-7 knots in calm weather.
mircea_popescu: it also stands say 3 meters over water
asciilifeform does not have the naval-fu to say whether this scales down linearly
mircea_popescu: in any case, you're doing 1/100 the weight and 1/10 the fuel tank.
asciilifeform: for the sake of gedankenexperiment : mircea_popescu how would you keep the air intake out of water in a 'surface torpedo' ?
asciilifeform: afaik there's a reason why torpedoes carry own oxidizer in all cases
asciilifeform: it takes 1 gulp of ocean, and engine is done
mircea_popescu: put four on each corner, make them |= style, and let it be
asciilifeform: right but gotta keep water out of all of'em
asciilifeform: or am i missing something
mircea_popescu: nah, water keeps self out, as long as they don't suck.
mircea_popescu: suck with the ones not submerged.
asciilifeform: they're sucking, tho
asciilifeform: and 2m (sop) wave, all 4 submerged ? then what
mircea_popescu: why, because it's 1938 ?
mircea_popescu: then engine stops.
asciilifeform: so needs diesel that can self-dehydrate ?
mircea_popescu: but large waves are not so usual in blue water.
asciilifeform: would be killer item, as i understand lotsa yachters would buy
mircea_popescu: no, the engine stops. not chokes, stops.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the reason this doesn't work for the 40 foot planing yacht twin engine turbo bla bla, is because engine is fucking large.
asciilifeform: i can think of several possible ways to make such a diesel, but afaik no such thing presently exists off-shelf, would have to make.
mircea_popescu: the tiny thing here discussed, a) can be easily stopped and b) the suckage isn't of the nature of golfball-through-virginasshole./
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform hence my "niggers nigger rig" comment. they don't have the clue to make what they need.
asciilifeform: rright, but diesels as i know'em still gotta be dry in order to start again.
mircea_popescu: you never get water in.
asciilifeform: and dun enjoy salt.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: valves ?
asciilifeform can picture valves, and compressed air tank as 'buffer'
mircea_popescu: 1 psi, airs, 1.03 psi closes.
PeterL: just go to small scale nuclear reactor and then you don't need air, can just run under the water
mircea_popescu: eeexactly.
mircea_popescu: PeterL there can not be such a thing as "small scale" nuclear reactor
asciilifeform: PeterL: even pre-nukes, '40s jp navy has peroxide sub.
mircea_popescu: all reactos are the same size.
asciilifeform: it is possible to have closed cycle engine, on (reasonably) cheap.
PeterL: how about a sterling engine (external combustion)?
mircea_popescu: anyway, you'll have to figure out a buoyancy thing anyway. whyt the fuck use ballast, when could use airtank. etc.
mircea_popescu: the small robotic blocade runner tech is very immature.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: airtank as ballast already classic, in ordinary torpedo.
mircea_popescu: the other thing is of course speed. you, you're happy with 1 knot. the reason "modern yacht" has massively oversized engine and undersized tanks is because water is like molasses, and modern man is a premature ejaculotor. GOTTA QUICK!!!
mircea_popescu: very expensive to gotta quick in water.
mircea_popescu: "but mp, 1knot is booooring" "you know, the fish over there is the same fish as over here"
asciilifeform: hence orig suggestion of electrics+pv
asciilifeform: fish speed.
asciilifeform: and no tanks.
phf: ave1: i missed your zfp_4 but added
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the sun will dry the seawater on your solar panels.
asciilifeform: electrics -- scale down to ~microscopic. who didn't have a toy submarine as a boy.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this is solvable , with properly oversized panel.
asciilifeform: receiving end -- cleans it.
asciilifeform: it's 1 of the few potentially sane use cases for pv.
mircea_popescu: ocean will break your oversized panel.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: you wouldn't put a single crystal panel to sea, lol. segments joined by rubber.
mircea_popescu: the sea eats rubber. i hear that's why they don't have the toyota submerged cities yet.
asciilifeform: and errything breaks one day.
asciilifeform: q is whether it could survive a coupla trips.
phf: why qatar, mocky and beedog could just consult for the zetas
PeterL: what if the panel is placed under the water level, then salt won't dry on it
asciilifeform: i suspect that such a machine could be built.
mircea_popescu: phf what's mocky done!
mircea_popescu: PeterL could be anchor!
mircea_popescu: anyway. the chinese routinely just do the english thing
asciilifeform: which english thing
mircea_popescu: (put boat at anchor 30 miles offshore, let locals ferry by boating ship)
asciilifeform: what would anchor on a 50kg torpedo look like ?
mircea_popescu: no anchor.
asciilifeform: so, keeps station ?
asciilifeform: how does receiver find it ?
asciilifeform: i.e. it beacons ?
asciilifeform: what's to keep enemy from going to the beacon ?
mircea_popescu: nope. pre-arranged at tiome of loading
mircea_popescu: "how do i know this is mine ?" "is it where yours should be ?"
asciilifeform: i suspect that you'd get coupla sq. km. radius to search.
mircea_popescu: "i'm confused now... was the pink one your dildos and the gray one my books ?" "shit man... " "ok let's drop them overboard see which way they go again"
mircea_popescu: nah, meter resolution. just take whores out for a swim.
asciilifeform: back when su spy sats dropped film bottles, they still had ( reluctantly, as it is just as asinine as it sounds ) beacons, because otherwise ~0 chance of find. even from chopper.
PeterL: how about thing is equipped to receive signal, you send out proper code and your location, it finds you
asciilifeform: at any rate i suspect that the problem is not wholly engineering problem, in the sense where, yes usg torpedo (for piddling 100km range) costs $mil, a ru torpedo -- $100k, but afaik nobody's built a $1 or even $10k thing-that-sails-8000km , in which to economically carry $1k of cargo
mircea_popescu: why should it be programmable ? what, no p.bvulpes where these people live ?
phf: asciilifeform: even modern amateur launches rely on beacons, but design considered is very similar to my glider: once released avoinics' only concern is to aim for a particular gps coordinate, no "sq km. radius" involved, depending on the range of banking maneuvers to within <5m
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this item would cost about 10k or so i guess, and it'd carry maybe 10kg or 10 liters of cargo, whichever smallest.
asciilifeform: phf: gliders don't get moved when landed by currents.
mircea_popescu: this is not econoimical today, BUT because tanker takes 1 cent per ton to d othat distance
phf: asciilifeform: there's no "landed" in your scenario, continuous adjustment towards coordinates until picked up
mircea_popescu: it WOULD be economical if one actually aimed to collect your "i am being fucked for $100 bux on 100g"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'm 100% sold that one ~could~ build. would 1st have to devise a 50kg diesel, i've never seen one, even aside from the matter of water etc
mircea_popescu: ie, one of these miniboats would be looking at 20k per trip. the gasoline is ~40
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: gotta factor in % of lost vessels + cargo, like the satellite people do, however
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform iirc the "small engine" item is recurrent in logs. prolly will end up in the worklists before foundry too
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if i lost your cargo would you cry more than if the orcs steal it like they apparently well might've ?
asciilifeform: small engines , to date, suffer re efficiency. sorta why tanker is sop today, vs fleet of sloops
asciilifeform: but asciilifeform is not domain expert, will not presume to go into depth
mircea_popescu: vs fleet of sloops yes, but not necessarily vs very small items.
mircea_popescu: 10kg and 10kton item safe. 100ton items... not safe.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu; currently orcs steal 300 $ of hdd, rather than $10k of hdd + $20k of torpedo..
mircea_popescu: it's how the ocean goes, it has a double dip.
mircea_popescu: air not like this, air has a single dip, optimal plane size is one.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes, but if you do per kg this is actually more.
asciilifeform: correct. ( tho in addition to 'orcs steal', we add 'poseidon steals' )
mircea_popescu: anyway, the small float is safe thing : the ship that lost 10mn bathroom rubber ducklings at sea resulted in rubber ducklings amfibious landings
mircea_popescu: if they were one single 10 ton rubber ducking, it'd have been pieced.
asciilifeform: landed at ~destination~ ??
mircea_popescu: for some definitions.
asciilifeform: how wouldja like if you were mailing parcel and post answered 'hey, it went ~somewhere~' lol
mircea_popescu: the point here discussed was material strength and ocean stress interaction, and why there's two solutions to the equation : large AND small
asciilifeform: i'm 100% sold that 'small' is possible, but not 100% convinced that with diesel.
mircea_popescu: as opposed to air, where there's only one solution : THIS big.
asciilifeform: su tried for ~70yrs to make ~flyable~ (i.e. <100kg) diesel, failed.
mircea_popescu: so use a wheed whacker engine.
asciilifeform: 10x smaller efficiency.
asciilifeform: 10x bigger tank.
asciilifeform: and then talking about a 500kg torpedo.
asciilifeform: i'd describe this as 'open problem', rather than 'physical impossibility' tho. conceivably a material exists out of which can be made 50kg diesel.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: pretty sure i got one of these here, grass cutter. air cooled tho, and even in cool air not happy to run for weeks at time
mircea_popescu: water is much colder than your plastic casing.
mircea_popescu: MUCH colder. no ship ever has cooling problems for engine. cools through mounts.
asciilifeform: would be interesting to at least compute what can be had from genset engine
asciilifeform: ( how many kw, for how long , on $tank )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: as i understand cooling in ship is entirely different headache, how to keep salt from eating the exchanger
mircea_popescu: in your case, the exchanger is the casing. nice pressed steel
mircea_popescu: (im seriously thinking jerrycan chassis)
asciilifeform pictures genset submerged in oil and welded into bottle
asciilifeform: 'wet exhaust' apparatus for the tailpipe.
mircea_popescu: and if it overheats, it can... take a break!
asciilifeform: btw the columbians, as far as is known to asciilifeform , use standard gensets for power plant, and electric outboard for motile.
asciilifeform: that very same honda, iirc.
asciilifeform: ( the publicly exposed examples, iirc carried 2, 1 spare )
mircea_popescu: they're eerily reminiscent of early ww2 soviet "tank" production
asciilifeform: moar like '20s 'tank', where they welded sheets on vans
mircea_popescu: "why does this turret look like a barn door ?" "..."
asciilifeform: there's at least 1 public example of a ~papier-mache item.
mircea_popescu: or i guess mosul isis "armored cars"
asciilifeform: btw 2 small motors that cannot do 100%-dutycycle, can be entirely legit replacement for one of 2x mass (and 5x cost) that could
asciilifeform: supposing one has mechanism for switching.
asciilifeform: incidentally re 'salmon goes fast enuff if yer patient!11' item: in asciilifeform's crackpot files, there is a gedankenexperiment, simplest possible sea propulsion, with 0 exposure of moving parts to salt : picture hermetically sealed 'bottle' with... gyroscope
asciilifeform: in gimbal. as in old icbm navigator. with the diff that its purpose is specifically to resist motion in the 'undesired' direction.
asciilifeform: potentially could have 'self-guiding message in bottle' this way, in coupla months would even get somewhere near where intended...
asciilifeform: al schwartz at one time was into 'messages in bottles' , dropped in various spots from airplanes, tracked receipt ( many folx actually mailed in ! the postcard ). i suggested this variation to him.
asciilifeform: you power the gyro with the motion of the thing itself, in waves, a la japanese wristwatch.
asciilifeform: $100 transcontinentator...
asciilifeform: champagne bottle.
asciilifeform: ( exercise for reader : compute the minimal necessary counter-force that gyro in a 5kg bottle must exert , to eventually converge on destination... )
asciilifeform: i also suggested to schwartz to place mesh radio in the bottles, but thread went nowhere.
asciilifeform: afaik the principal boojum that puts this in the 'prolly not happening' , is that ocean is not 'random', has strong currents.
asciilifeform: ww2 jp accomplished however a similarly improbable feat, with 50kg ~balloons~, which had simple 'music box' mechanism that only knew how to drop ballast and vent gas, so as to get into- and out- of current.
asciilifeform: so conceivably applicable to water.
asciilifeform: !#s jp balloon
a111: Logged on 2015-03-28 03:03 asciilifeform: for those who insist on balloons, at least study the state of the art:
asciilifeform: ( balloons per se are prolly not interesting from pov of this application, but same principle could be usable in water )
PeterL: have we already explored small dirigible with pv panels on top and electric motor?
mircea_popescu: !Qcalc 8300 / 14 / 24
mircea_popescu: if you don't get 25km/h AVERAGE, you'll take more than two weeks.
deedbot: << Qntra - Ghost Gunner Guy Hit With Child Sex Charges After Allegely Paying Sex Worker For Hotel Sex
asciilifeform: ahahahaha BingoBoingo , loox like they finally him
a111: Logged on 2016-12-03 04:37 asciilifeform: did they put the d00d who was picked up for 'child pr0n' the day he demonstrated the glock-on-quadcopter ?
asciilifeform: PeterL: dirigibles, balloons, etc. of practically useful size, suck, radar profile
asciilifeform: even goatfuckistans have ww2-style radar.
asciilifeform: ( even supposing they didn't -- the place from which hypothetical box originates, definitely does )
asciilifeform: btw ftr i suspect that the wilson d00d wasn't nailed for 'distibuting evil schematics', they're ~useless as is, but for refusing to sabotage'em and play gapon for usg
deedbot: << Bimbo.Club - TMSR Log Summary - 9/09/2018
asciilifeform: and ditto the other fella
asciilifeform: or even as mundane as refusal to play 'death ray seller' stooge role in $provocation-of-the-day
asciilifeform: i.e. 'wouldn't turn asset'
asciilifeform: nicoleci: couldja plz make the links -- clickable
mats: isn't the fact that they're 3d-printed the booby trap?
asciilifeform: ( imho they also oughta be to something other than Framedragger's logtron, which i suspect is not long to live )
asciilifeform: mats: perhaps not enuff of trap
asciilifeform: mats: and the moar recent items not '3d printed', d00d sold a little cnc milling thing
mats: oh interesting
asciilifeform: it dun make barrels, only the back half of piece, but in usa barrels are sold openly
asciilifeform: ( ancient -- 1920s? -- laws, never cancelled, consider 'receiver' to be the usg-controlled item )
asciilifeform: !!up nicoleci
deedbot: nicoleci voiced for 30 minutes.
nicoleci: asciilifeform: thanks - working on it now :) i wasnt sure how the links would show in the post
asciilifeform: ( for n00bz/non-aficionados -- 'receiver' is the part between stock and barrel, roughly )
asciilifeform: excluding ( again, per usg customs, can't speak for the phree world ) the bolt.
asciilifeform: kalash receiver can and has been made from shovel.
asciilifeform: ( as i understand, will be contraband in usg reich unless Officially blessed )
asciilifeform: nicoleci: (possibly you already know, from reading l0gz) Framedragger was a briefly-productive fella who walked off into the desert coupla yrs ago; his www is (for nao) alive.
asciilifeform: perhaps he paid for the hoster in advance, or whoknows, still tuned in quietly, but not known to me which.
asciilifeform: similar situation to mike_c's wot viewer, which stayed alive for coupla yrs after he expired.
nicoleci: asciilifeform: interesting and no i have not yet come across any references to framedragger
phf: is ada-musl-cross-2018-06-01 the latest version of ave1's ada?
asciilifeform: phf: afaik latest, yes
asciilifeform: !!up nicoleci
deedbot: nicoleci voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: !#s from:Framedragger_
a111: 0 results for "from:Framedragger_",
asciilifeform: !#s from:Framedragger
a111: 7577 results for "from:Framedragger",
asciilifeform: nicoleci: ^ subj. is/was his logtron.
asciilifeform: in coupla wks will be whole yr since last seen alive.
asciilifeform: phf: -cross is the build-for-arm64-on-pc but you prolly already knew this.
phf: asciilifeform: after failing twice i decided to read the readme lol
asciilifeform: phf: i followed the recipe on ave1's site, lol
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: IIrc, Cody's first dance was single shot plastic thing that required a 10 penny nail for the firing pin
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: right, but he eventually retooled and went to the obvious sane thing, cnc kit
asciilifeform: ( prior to this i had him pegged as cheap provocateur )
asciilifeform: for all i know, ~was~ cheap provocateur, but 'went off reservation', whoknows
asciilifeform: some % of the recent schematics, are for proper ironwork.
asciilifeform: ( none of which constitutes a mega-seekrit, any competent smith can make kalash. wilson's thing was different, n00b assembles 100% unpoliced cnc box, tabletop, from kit, and then loads in ingot and proggy )
BingoBoingo: Hard to say if all of's hands are that coordinated. Could have been a hit by some activist group
asciilifeform: fwiw i have nfi whether it worked, but the fact that barrel is not part of the scheme means that no serious metallurgy needed, untempered steel worx ok for receiver
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i dun distinguish in my mind 'activists' from other usg
BingoBoingo: The did go through all of trouble of fishing him with a sex worker instead of loading his drive up with pr0nz
asciilifeform: good % of the reich moving parts consist of 'ngo' as it is.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: reich takes typically path of least resistance.
asciilifeform: if d00d did not frequent whorehouse, theyd've given him some other 'mortal sin'.
asciilifeform: chances are, i won't find out which one it'd have been till i go to the woodchipper myself.
BingoBoingo: Not much to do except fry up some chicken livers while you wait
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i've nfi whether i have months , or years, but pretty sure that not likely decade. the only thing i presently know re the reich reaper, is that idjit reddit 'activism' substantially shortens life expectancy. hence 'stars' like wilson et al.
BingoBoingo: Well, there's always jungle life if you get out early enough
BingoBoingo: The ocelot factor
asciilifeform: as soon as i learn to live on mice -- then .
BingoBoingo: Eric Rudolph did the jungle hardware thing for a while
asciilifeform: for coupla months, and with 9000 safehouses, yes
asciilifeform: iirc he wasn't trying to also write proggies tho.
BingoBoingo: Anyways going into my fridge I've got "Hidago de Pollo" which runs 131 pesos to the kilo and "Corazon de Pollo" which runs 120 pesos to the kilo
asciilifeform misread as 'hidalgo de pollo', lolled
asciilifeform bbl,meat
mircea_popescu: << i take it teh fbi was involved!!!
a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 19:57 deedbot: << Qntra - Ghost Gunner Guy Hit With Child Sex Charges After Allegely Paying Sex Worker For Hotel Sex
mircea_popescu: << seems rather closer to likeliness.
a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 20:15 asciilifeform: or even as mundane as refusal to play 'death ray seller' stooge role in $provocation-of-the-day
a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 21:16 phf: asciilifeform: after failing twice i decided to read the readme lol
mircea_popescu: << lol, what, you decided to die there meanwhile ?
a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 21:53 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i've nfi whether i have months , or years, but pretty sure that not likely decade. the only thing i presently know re the reich reaper, is that idjit reddit 'activism' substantially shortens life expectancy. hence 'stars' like wilson et al.
mircea_popescu: anyway, reddit activism does ~nothing, i've been fucking reddit in the ear for years, reich still busy "not noticing, and if noticing still not noticing", style
mircea_popescu: speaking of reality distorsion fields : "Rule #1: This is a non-partisan subreddit. Rule #3: No racism/antisemitism/anti-gay comments. Rule #9: No Direct Links to Garbage Media".
mircea_popescu: straight out of the "this is not a convent but a hospital, therefore no tools nor textbooks allowed on the premises" playbook.
BingoBoingo: In other headlines that complicate family relationships: "Texas great-grandmother shoots 12-foot gator as revenge for killing mini-horse"
BingoBoingo: I R impressed granddaughter managed to birth gator
mircea_popescu: "In the summer of 1996, the world converged upon Atlanta for the Olympic Games. Under the protection and auspices of the regime in Washington millions of people came to celebrate the ideals of global socialism."
mircea_popescu: dood's actually quite the unsung hero, isn't he.
asciilifeform: << i dun happen to have a surefire (or, more pertinently, quick) plot for getting out, was all
a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 23:09 mircea_popescu: << lol, what, you decided to die there meanwhile ?
asciilifeform: << not errybody is firing from atomic dirigible, [insert mandatory thread] etc
a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 23:10 mircea_popescu: anyway, reddit activism does ~nothing, i've been fucking reddit in the ear for years, reich still busy "not noticing, and if noticing still not noticing", style
asciilifeform: 'activists' who kick moar wasp hive than their arse can handle, have problems, i did not think this were surprising observation
asciilifeform: << lol!!
a111: Logged on 2016-01-20 03:44 asciilifeform had 'tricks of the unix masters', old maculature crud, on his shelf as a student, and an actual greybeard saw, asked 'where is your 'tricks of the doom masters' to go next to this'
asciilifeform: wtf is 'ctr' tho
mircea_popescu: ~usual nothing. very much "i didn't know turkey was a country" fare.
mircea_popescu: speaking of tv morons,
asciilifeform: 'Time for Turkey’s Fragmentation' << ahahahaha usg.dos has not enuff ukrs..?
asciilifeform: Total Spent $29,329 << what kinda lolcat is this.
asciilifeform: '...apparently the Iranians envied Russians for their despicable treatment of Armenia...' << lol , which alt-history was this ? the worldline where ru didn't (for no particular good end, might add) save the armenians from their (well-earned) fate ?
a111: Logged on 2018-09-18 23:28 mircea_popescu: when they bake again, it's gonna be "because the world is mean and CERTAINLY not because " again also, no doubt ?
mircea_popescu: you may not recall the name of the white house janitor depicted from behind. but he is famous for fistbumping a pantsuit rapper once.
asciilifeform: from behind << reminds of ww2 front su joak. new d00d in platoon, sitting by fire , listens to tales . old sargeant, 'we found pile of arms and legs and torso, but guesswhat, our doc stiched together and now them arms,legs fightin' again, see ivan over there.' new fella answers, 'i can do better, in my old unit we took a shell, found... just an arse.' sarge : 'what didja do then, what can do with just an arse' d00d: 'what do you thin
asciilifeform: k? picked it up, he worked his way into hq, is big brass nao!'
asciilifeform: mats: item seems to be dated oct '16 . what became of this ?
asciilifeform: ( i'ma guess, /dev/null )
mircea_popescu: "superpac". they go to devnull by default.
a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 21:59 asciilifeform misread as 'hidalgo de pollo', lolled
asciilifeform: that makes 9000x moarsense, lol
mircea_popescu: that'd be the joke, yes.
asciilifeform: some folx, when they croak, all they get is a stone marked '404'.
mircea_popescu: (no, the "archive" wikipedia links to also doesn't have any content. the pantsuit will carefully link to dead pages of things)
asciilifeform: who, outside of the l0gz, remembers, e.g., erik frein.
mircea_popescu: but whatever, moron opted to make it a pdf, i don't care.
asciilifeform: i dun expect itd've made much diff if he stuck to godly 80col .txt .
mircea_popescu: it would be here.
asciilifeform: ( and chances are that it wasn't born pdf, the ustards tend to repackage errything they get their sticky hands on, in pdf , for obv reasons )
mircea_popescu: and then link to dead pages of puppets, and to imperial ersatz-archives of same, that are just as dead.
a111: Logged on 2018-08-01 03:07 mircea_popescu: just like the weev morons, writing "advertising" irc bots to advertise inept usg alt-agenda to me. because yea, totally, THAT'll work, and is the way to spend a youth.
mircea_popescu: and so on.
asciilifeform: missing the photo liquishit, but i dun expect you wanted it for anyffnig
asciilifeform: 'At 15, I wasn’t really up on my politics. I’d never seen any evidence of an impending United Nations takeover, but what did I know? I had, however, done a tour of duty in south Florida’s public schools where the teachers taught us guilt and self-hate, where drugs and violence were the norm. I no longer trusted the System. The Culture War that the Patriots spoke of was something I’d experienced first-hand. Unlike the Pentecos
asciilifeform: tals, who told us to become doormats, the Patriots talked about resistance. Talk of a coming war intrigued me. For the first time in my life, I felt like I had a purpose. Preparing for the coming conflagration held an incredible attraction for me.' etc etc
asciilifeform: reads sorta like eliot.
asciilifeform: 133337 w4r3z
mats: asciilifeform: did some digging, didn't come up with anything. doesn't help that i don't have a westlaw subscription anymore
mircea_popescu: amusingly, post ww2 lots of ro army officers rejected the russian-sponsored pretense to relevancy of local "socialists" (exactly like us socialists, 1950s ro socialists were indistinct jobsworths, jailbirds and assorted faggots)
asciilifeform: mats: i suspect that the whole thing simply evaporated, as these tend to
mircea_popescu: took a good two decades to clear out the carpathians.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i saw a large and ( apparently recently built ) memorial for these in timis, with plinths fulla names and how/when killed
mats: same group (campaign legal center) made complaints that hrc campaign paid out to fusion gps for the famous mi6 dosier
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: was out in the boonies, next to the litle zoo thing they had
asciilifeform: there was a woman there, looked to be 80-90 y.o., crying on bench.
mircea_popescu: there were originally thousands and thousands of groups. a few famous ones lasted into the 60s, thereby delaying the "victory against fascist elements".
asciilifeform: not errybody likes being colonized, noose at 11...
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes, there was a good 30-40% female population in these.
mircea_popescu: goes to show that the "oh, treblinka, had women" is not quite that useful a heuristic. it also depends WHAT women. useless polish jews or what.
asciilifeform: sure does
asciilifeform: will add, belarussian partizans also ~20-30% chix, didn't hurt
asciilifeform: mine under track still goes off when laid by chix.
mircea_popescu: i lost interest in this "tactical choice of my part" pile of crap within two pages. who goes unarmed ? "I used to wear a handcuff key around
mircea_popescu: my neck for just such an occasion. But that was a long time ago; seemed like ages almost" ? srsly ? who the fuck runs towards the ambush, unarmed ?
asciilifeform: iirc rudolf ended as some sort of armed desperado tho, so maybe read backwards ? ( then again, so did eliot... )
asciilifeform: neither shows symptoms of being any kind of 'man of letters' tho.
mircea_popescu: this was the discussion of his capture i thought.
mircea_popescu: aaaanyway.
asciilifeform: possibly includes one. but is 'autobio' written from prison, supposedly.
mircea_popescu: the fascinating adventures of men alone.
asciilifeform: whothefuq knows what % any relation to fact.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: iirc rudolf wasn't ~exactly~ alone, has buncha derps in countryside helpin' him hide out and draw out the agony
asciilifeform: y'know, like the carpathian folx.
mircea_popescu: looky, the mechanics of him being arrested were, from the pastebin : 1. dood saw a box of bruised bananas in dumpster, decided store will dump 100s of lbs, on the basis of experience ; 2. dood told self "i dodged that police cruiser hundreds of times, can do it again" ; 3. dood decided to cross after first pass of cruiser, rather than wait AS PER USUAL see if it comes back ; 4. when spotted, dood decided to run into blind all
mircea_popescu: ey, instead of back the way he came.
mircea_popescu: which sounds like "i'm sick of eating dumpster, this ends now", except for the part where he packed no weapons.
asciilifeform: ( it was never clear to asciilifeform what the ro, baltic, ukr, etc anti-sov partizans were hoping to accomplish, beyond a good 1st class ticket to honourable valhalla. they could not have glued the world of 1939 back together, and given as they weren't redditards, prolly understood this. so i'm left with 'acted from cause not purpose'(tm)(r) and no better hypothesis. )
mircea_popescu: what the fuck was wrong with waiting for the cop to get out, shooting him in the fucking head, urinating in the hole, getting into the cruiser, calling emergency "officer shot" bla bla, then picking the respondents from behind with shotgun ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform imo that was exactly what was going on.
asciilifeform: valhalla always open for biznis.
mircea_popescu: contrary to popular belief, no system ever in history could afford to field militarily relevant policemen. it's impossible.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ~erry arrest story i ever read featured some variant of 'then i slipped on banana'
asciilifeform: seems like statistics favour this.
mircea_popescu: killing a dozen cops or so per encounter comfortably within limits of training ; and this isn't even counting what they'll do to each other in crossfire.
asciilifeform: recall the ex-cop black d00d in california
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform where is the "slipped" ? "i went into berserker mode without my axe", this is not slipping. if you don't take a gun, you are aware you're not into that mode, yes ?
mircea_popescu: he... FORGOT he didn't take his guns ?
asciilifeform: lol maybe listened 1 too many times to 'dun take yer guns to town'..
mircea_popescu: but i mean, logically. man wakes up in morning. "do i wish to die today or live another day ?" if answer comes out 2, he goes with no guns, AND ACTS ACCORDINGLY
mircea_popescu: what, he forgot what answer had come to ?
mircea_popescu: very poorly organised thought process, in the freeranged derp. hence my "man alone" comment.
mircea_popescu: it's not that he was or was not in the physical presence of other biobatteries.
asciilifeform: i'll admit, puzzled, with what then did he shoot the cops he was supposed to have shot
mircea_popescu: it is that he never had anyone in his life to fucking tell him QUESTIONS FOLLOW IN A TREE!!!!
asciilifeform: ( am i mixing the eliots in my memory ? )
mircea_popescu: if we decided 1, then we act as 1 throughout the respective tree, wtf is this random mix and matching.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i vaguely recall weirdo caught dumpster diving, dunno what cops he shot or w/e.
asciilifeform: oh hah shot 0 cops
asciilifeform: i had'im mixed with somebody.
asciilifeform: not actually clear that rudolf did anyffing at all. ( confessed on the stake to long list of 'terrorisms' , naturally )
asciilifeform: 'On April 8, 2005, the Department of Justice announced that Rudolph had agreed to a plea bargain under which he would plead guilty to all charges he was accused of in exchange for avoiding the death penalty' etc etc
mircea_popescu: afaik bombed some abortion clinics.
asciilifeform: or confessed to same, at any rate
asciilifeform: ( could have also made him confess to shooting kennedy, i have nfi why they didn't )
mircea_popescu: stupidest fucking red herring to ever fixate on. really, they'll fight "the ideals of global socialism" by opposing the natural process of culling the herd ?
asciilifeform: it's a unique ustardism, i suspect no white man will ever grasp it
a111: Logged on 2017-08-22 19:35 mircea_popescu: and in other lulz, speaking of catholic latinas etc : the dispute between "progressives" and "christian fundamentalists" never ceases to amaze me. here you have two pantsuit groups which both agree with the fundamental pantsuit "every sperm is sacred". their disagreement is re when "every sperm is sacred" starts : the jesus pantsuit thinks it's at age -9 months ; the progre pantsuit thinks it's at - something, not quite 9 mon
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: very strangely, in usa it is the ~protestant~ derps who go in for it.
mircea_popescu: "we're gonna fight socialism because it's not socialist enough!!!"
asciilifeform: hey, christians.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if you can be ever arsed to read that newman book i wrote, you'l;l discover (to no surprise) that the angicans were pretending to be "the real catholics" without saying so.
asciilifeform: since henry 8, neh.
mircea_popescu: the protestant derps don't protest in the sense you think ; but in the opposite of it.
asciilifeform: 'in February 2013, with help by his brother, published Rudolph's book Between the Lines of Drift: The Memoirs of a Militant, and in April 2013, the U.S. Attorney General seized $200 to help pay off the $1 million that Rudolph owes in restitution to the state of Alabama' << peditardia.
mircea_popescu: im sorry, the newman book i linked, "loss and gain". i didn't wriote it lol.
asciilifeform: i was confused for coupla millisecond lol
asciilifeform: but allgood, ecc'd!11
asciilifeform: ( see also the immortal words: 'i was there! i did it' -- al gore, 9/11/01 )
mircea_popescu demonstratively pulls imaginary knife from ribcage
asciilifeform: !#s dornier
asciilifeform: hm could've sworn we did him
asciilifeform: << at ~random , re subj. the california fella.
asciilifeform: ^ one of those magical creatures with indestructable, un-singeable passports that never drifts far from owner's charred corpse
asciilifeform: sorta like the 9/11 fellas.
asciilifeform: 'If and when Dorner's body is identified, the LAPD will have to offer up some answers on the way this manhunt was handled—from Dorner's 2007 case, to the corruption allegations in his manifesto. And they'll have to explain why they fired upon innocent civilians who didn't even match Dorner's description. One civilian was shot by the Torrance police, and has since lawyered up...' << afaik all of this went to same /dev/null as mats's
asciilifeform: thing earlier upthread.
asciilifeform: 'There's also seems to be a brewing controversy of how last night's blaze came to be and whether it was set deliberately. In this clip, from KCAL 9 News in California, police can be heard saying "f*cking burn this motherfu*cker..."' << and ditto.
asciilifeform: 'no man, no problem'(tm)(r)
mats: cops had authoritah to set his cabin on fire, didn’t want to risk breaching and getting shot again
asciilifeform: mats: this was not a traditional policing method in usa prior, but then again clinton introduced it at waco, so precedent.
asciilifeform: 'hande hoch, partizanen', like in the last reich
mircea_popescu: << those were pretty good. like the white hat that never gets stained (i have some white hats, they don't work like wayne's) and the cowboy horse that never gets a sprained ankle.
a111: Logged on 2018-09-20 00:46 asciilifeform: ^ one of those magical creatures with indestructable, un-singeable passports that never drifts far from owner's charred corpse
asciilifeform: aha, sold in the same shop as the self-setting tablecloth and 7league boots and other fine goodies
mats: cops don’t want to be meatshields, so ofc deploy cs gas canisters to induce fire, or send robot to breach with pound of c4
asciilifeform: mats: begs the q, why not drop nuke from air.
asciilifeform: definitely no cowboy survives direct nuke.
asciilifeform: in fact why not nuke whole set of subjects preventively.
asciilifeform: 0 criminals then.
mircea_popescu: amusingly, this is the point where empire and republic converge.
mircea_popescu: empire's "killing everyone is an acceptable end state of avoiding suffering" doesn't conflict with republic's "killing everyone in empire entirely acceptable end state"
mats: ‘rules of engagement’
a111: Logged on 2015-03-26 20:43 asciilifeform: one to break doors, gates; one to threaten bystanders, if any, with 'accidental' fire; one to shoot; and perhaps one with a cage that arrestee -might- be permitted to surrender into, if the bot's voice-recognition system works and if orders included a possible live capture
mircea_popescu: the only problem with this "fyootoorism" is how utterly unsustainable it is.
phf: asciilifeform: there are `set it on fire' incidents predating waco. john africa's MOVE compound in philadelphia was set on fire after a standoff in 1985
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: dun keep'em from trying, eh
asciilifeform: phf: i dun for a moment suspect that 'set'em all on fire, let god sort out' is new.
mircea_popescu: was this back wehn last of white police was fighthing "black extremism" ?
asciilifeform: phf: but there was a short period in ustard history where they (mostly) maintained appearances of 'hey we aint nazi, not at all'
mod6: megal0g today. nice.
phf: well, sure, but this is re "traditional us policing methods", lots of these tactics were first employed against "black exstrimists"
asciilifeform: phf: against the indians, lol, if we go back enuff
mircea_popescu: phf the only sadness is that something as ridiculous as a sf-hack cult predated the republican infiltration of fbi etc.
mircea_popescu: but, yes. little new under sun.
asciilifeform: fdr et al pulled epic pr stunt on their moomoos , convinced 'we're softer, gentler, not at all like germany' while burning down entire of e.g. jp , etc . pretense carried on for a spell, retooled 'we aint at all like evil moscuvy' , then finally dispensed with entirely when obsolete
phf: one of the move ladies runs a "raw foods" shop in west philadelphia, she don't talk about it much though. i had an amusing conversation with one of her locals, who, unprompted, went on a long rant about how bitcoin is a weapon against babylon, and how fbi is going to start killing bitcoin people, etc.
asciilifeform: erry scam has finite life.
asciilifeform: phf: lol, 'will start'
mircea_popescu: phf apparently the obviousness of who's whose daddy shines through even functionally illiterate, weed-whacked heads.
asciilifeform: speaking of which, smell of weed has become ~inescapable in washingtonistan. even in stopped traffic at lights, windows ~closed~, seeps in from neighbouring columns
asciilifeform: ~erry 3rd open window on ~erry street, nearly
asciilifeform: shops, taxis, toilets, pretty much errywhere
mircea_popescu: sounds like victory.
asciilifeform: for some value of victory..
mircea_popescu: victory of socialism.
asciilifeform: i dun think it is (yet) handed out for phreee, so possibly notyet
mircea_popescu: earlier at pool, "i suspect most us relationships start between drug dealer and drug customer. certainly better basis than met-at-club or w./e" "sure, dating dealer great way to get free pot" "honey... hanging out with potheads great way to get free pot anyways."
mircea_popescu: afaik always handed out for free
asciilifeform: '1st one phree'
mod6: charge it to the game
asciilifeform: ( 90001st one , i expect, also phree, if yer a 20s chix )
mircea_popescu: you really think women have it easier than you in erry which way, don't you!
mircea_popescu: bros before hos, yo! i'd bet you easier to bum pot as a dood than as a chick.
asciilifeform: i have concretely nfi actually
asciilifeform reasons from kindergarten 1stprinciple, 'penniless chix has with what to pay stranger, bloke - not'
mircea_popescu: << incidentally, i'm so curious what comes of this...
a111: Logged on 2018-09-19 01:08 Mocky: got my flight booked. will be on layover at heathrow for 15hrs on oct 8th
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform your 1st principles are deeply broken. there's no shortage of cunt and ample shortage of erections, for the very necessary functioning of biology.
mircea_popescu: you're what, proposing injuns are killing the pilgrims in trade ?
asciilifeform: this does not closely align with the reality experienced by d00dz who aint mircea_popescu ..
mircea_popescu: what the injuns have everyone has ; what the pilgrims have, shiny beads and all, nobody, not even the gods, ever saw before.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes, but in order to achieve this effect, those d00dz sit on truly tall tower of chairs.
asciilifeform: dunno, i thought mircea_popescu were adherent of (imho reasonable..) 'most males good only for mutton' pov
mircea_popescu: these conflict ?
Mocky: mircea_popescu, why curious about that?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: possibly, or possibly i'm missing a link in the logic circuit
mircea_popescu: Mocky i mean of the whole adventure, not the item specifically
Mocky: ahh. me too!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the 'tower of chairs' item implies 'if only they'd open their third eye, would swim in cunt' hypothesis
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform seems to me that "there's 0.95 peni for every cunt and while the latter works continuously, the former only works minutes/day" is not dulled but aggravated by coda "and on top of this most peni connected to apparatus only fit for mutton"
asciilifeform: well for 1 thing the former dun work 'continuously', it works for 2, maybe 3 decades of organism, with rare exception. while latter good for ~40-50
asciilifeform: and ~continuously
mircea_popescu: no fucking way.
mod6: astroglide
asciilifeform: mod6: + drill, tree...
mircea_popescu: i dunno where these dataz are got from.
mod6: = slivers
asciilifeform: cork tree.
asciilifeform: ( suitcase, airport, portugal!11 )
asciilifeform: but re mircea_popescu's observation upstack : it is elementarily true... in a harem. where yes sultan cock is limiting reactant.
asciilifeform: sorta hao in neutronic star, somewhat different conditions than on my desk.
mircea_popescu: oh i see.
mircea_popescu: im still mindblown you think girlbits stop working sometime in 30s.
asciilifeform: hey, engineer must!11 operate on pessimistic margins.
asciilifeform: 'maybe bridge will carry 500 tanks, but i'ma say 50'
mircea_popescu: seems to be that there's a deeper, darker underlying of that dunbar number :
mircea_popescu: as it turns out, the average female can take up to about maybe 100 dudes in a day.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the particular physical constant aside, some good % , appears , ~never start~ working
mircea_popescu: and THIS may actually be EXPLANATORY.\
asciilifeform: 'nedeflorena' et al
asciilifeform: hey if correctly strapped, down, maybe take 300
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform necessarily female sexual activity is socially downregulated. hence all these things you speak of.
asciilifeform: i do not know the current record
mircea_popescu: outliers exist, but no, ~100 is the outer bound.
mircea_popescu: "record" events do things like fluffers etc, which...
asciilifeform: 100 is typical company at arms, so i suspect that's where the estimate comes from
mircea_popescu: company at arms way the fuck ulterior.
asciilifeform: and iirc waffen ss did not need 'fluffers'
asciilifeform: nor red army in berlin
mircea_popescu: rape in berlin ~never ammounted to 100 doods fuck this one chick.
asciilifeform: it isnt clear to me why to bother when you have a whole berlin, aha
asciilifeform: so i suspect that we do not know the limit.
mircea_popescu: anthropology has its problems.
asciilifeform: speaking of which,
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