punkman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-04#1042524 << the universal pill is: master does the ordering for all peers. which is of course not p2p. As an example, paxos,raft and other such "consensoos" algos, then add "if master dies, elect new master" on top of that.
asciilifeform: it is possible to construct a scenario where this is not the case on account of packets arriving out-of-order. but there is no clean universal pill against this.
asciilifeform: punkman: not all that similar to mp's scheme, which to be fair he proposed before anyone knew what constant-time rsa costs
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-05-18 16:15:41 asciilifeform: the main obstacle currently is that non-leaking rsa is slow on pc.
asciilifeform: (pgpgrams then only for when folx actually need to have an authenticated or private conversation. as anywhere else on the net.)
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-07-03 13:14:52 asciilifeform: gold standard would obv. be rsa signatures. but these aint practical at line-rate on pc sadly.
asciilifeform: thimbronion et al : the key bit is that ~validating~ a packet must be fast. (generating a valid one -- not necessarily; hence pow variant. rsa fails on both counts)
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-05-18 16:15:41 asciilifeform: the main obstacle currently is that non-leaking rsa is slow on pc.
asciilifeform: gold standard would obv. be rsa signatures. but these aint practical at line-rate on pc sadly.
snsabot: (trilema) 2016-08-02 asciilifeform: one of these bargains is that you cannot build a career as a university academic with 'use rsa, kthx, bye'
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-07-01#1042065 << if in fact p!=np, something like current-day popular cryptoism (e.g. rsa) could be 'possible' (i.e. not doomed to certain death)
puman: If they buy into "modern crypto is shamanism" premise, than interesting conversation is possible. If they don't buy, not much hope.
snsabot: (trilema) 2018-04-16 zx2c4: mircea_popescu: ahh that ignorant and antiquated notion, that "key size implies security size". or do you think there will be some amazing GNFS-like algorithms that come out for ECC, requiring ECC to use absurdly huge keys in the same way as RSA?
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-05-18 16:15:41 asciilifeform: the main obstacle currently is that non-leaking rsa is slow on pc.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: ultimately actual authentication, w/rsa, is better, noshit. but not practical for GB/s packet filtration w/out custom ic afaik.
thimbronion: asciilifeform: yes nearly universal in my personal experience.
gregorynyssa: tomorrow is 100th anniversary of founding of Chinese Communist Party.
dulapbot: Logged on 2019-10-31 14:12:43 asciilifeform: spyked: the 'clef' to that 'roman a clef' is imho pretty simple. mp ate at asciilifeform's technological table for 7+y w/out paying in anyffin but insults (i dun particularly care re the insults, imho it is how proper male conversation worx.) this had to stop eventually, as it meshed poorly w/ mp's 'self image' as 'god emperor'. last straw was when asciilifeform, after failure of piz, built new isp, with the orig bug that kille
asciilifeform: i also admit that i'ma be a little disappointed if mp stays dead; was hoping to see him universally exposed, lowered, humiliated, and eventually dead of vodka, eltsin-style.
gregorynyssa: asciilifeform: IRC was designed as a system for conversations between idle strangers. per-user authentication contradicts decades of engrained customs.
dulapbot: Logged on 2021-06-23 00:41:54 verisimilitude: There's so few of us, having TCP streams open with everyone else could even work. We could throw UDP packets at a logging daemon here and use the logs to get the whole conversation.
verisimilitude: There's so few of us, having TCP streams open with everyone else could even work. We could throw UDP packets at a logging daemon here and use the logs to get the whole conversation.
snsabot: (trilema) 2019-09-06 asciilifeform: if you actually want to verify 4096bit rsa packets at line rate, tho, yer stuck baking silicon.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-02-05 17:24:20 asciilifeform: let's do for lulz some arithm. i have a linux-3.16.70.tar handy, and inside 47452 files. now, a modexp (2048bit!) on ye olde koch-rsa eats 0.639s on my machine. so that'd be ~8.42 hours. not counting the hashing (my timing example did not include hashing, had pre-baked operands).
asciilifeform: (for that matter, this isn't even a problem peculiar to tcpism, but exists in the general case. the problem here is that you've already given 'allcomer' a chunk of memory for tcp statefulness, and only ~after~ this demanded rsa op.. )
asciilifeform: when you're using tcp, fact is that your box 'sees' EVERYTHING people throw at it, and invoking rsaism simply makes it easier to ddos your cpu
snsabot: Logged on 2021-06-21 17:16:15 shinohai: has crazy idea "NICK" would be unnecessary if user had, say, RSA key in a wot directory and would only "see" messages from those in said wot
asciilifeform: shinohai: there's no hygienic way to bolt rsaism onto trad irc, this was iirc discussed to death
shinohai has crazy idea "NICK" would be unnecessary if user had, say, RSA key in a wot directory and would only "see" messages from those in said wot
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-21#1040321 << especially not with eventual RSA integration and support for content-based addressing.
verisimilitude: This is a depressing conversation.
asciilifeform: see also how this was done in the old days.
asciilifeform: thimbronion: this q is still up in the air. i picked moar or less at random for the pilot box, simply to have where to continue conversation when fleanode finally gives up the ghost for good.
asciilifeform: billymg (and other readers not present last night) -- observe that e.g today's log contains a number of ln not visible in your fleanode session. these originate from asciilifeform's ersatz-net.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-19 15:37:15 asciilifeform: ftr if fleanode finally croaks tomorrow, readers are invited to read on asciilifeform's www where to find him, there's an ersatz box ready to go for this occasion.
shinohai: btw thimbronion ... do you like Rimsky-Korsakov? (Violin from Scheherazade has to be one of my all-time favorite things to listen to)
whaack: trinque: if trb needs friendly nodes to be functional, isn't that definitionally not bitcoin? << Of course bitcoin needs friendly nodes to be functional. Relaying a valid block is a friendly act. It needs to be simultaenously immune to adversarial nodes
trinque: I'd sooner encourage you to work on making the thing more parallel than setting up network of friendlies that still does poorly at the boundary between it and the rest of the adversarial network
whaack: it also begs the question whether one could create a cyclic transaction, i.e. the input of B is the output of A, but simultaneously the output of B is the input of A, and if there's no topological sort done than the only reason why this should be impossible is because you would need to find some form of h(A + h(B)) == h(B) and vice versa
asciilifeform: whaack: in order for an orphaned block to appear in a dumpblock sequence, the block gotta be on disk. there are 2 ways to stand up a node currently -- 1) from 'wild' 2) from dumpblock. in (2), for each orphaned block, you have a roughly 50% chance of the ~correct~ one appearing in the dump (breadth-1st traversal)
asciilifeform: whaack: dumpblock oughta be a top-down traversal.
verisimilitude: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-02#1038210 I've had a conversation with him, he was nice.
verisimilitude: Mine admiration for authoritarianism derives purely from the idea that the better man should lead the weaker men, and not vice-versa.
asciilifeform: ftr if fleanode finally croaks tomorrow, readers are invited to read on asciilifeform's www where to find him, there's an ersatz box ready to go for this occasion.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-18 16:14:09 asciilifeform: also not very interested in schemes which are narrowly specific to chat, or www replacement. instead interested in general-purpose replacement for tcp, riding on top of existing net but with rsa pubkeys as deliverable addresses, zero knobs that unauthenticated ddosers can expensively push (incl. using captured authentic payloads) and complete opacity of traffic to any third party.
verisimilitude: In any case, I insist computers should bend to accomodate human language, not vice-versa.
asciilifeform: serial port is universal favourite, but 'cargo cultistically' imho -- if yer system is porous, it can be owned via serialport just as well as via ethernet; and aside from this, suppose i want to transmit at line rate ? now instead of 1G/s it's 115.2kB/s?
verisimilitude: I wouldn't be comfortable with an RSA key being directly attached to the Internet; surely it would be feasible to have a configuration with only the public key used to accept or reject blocks for later.
asciilifeform also not very interested in schemes which are narrowly specific to chat, or www replacement. instead interested in general-purpose replacement for tcp, riding on top of existing net but with rsa pubkeys as deliverable addresses, zero knobs that unauthenticated ddosers can expensively push (incl. using captured authentic payloads) and complete opacity of traffic to any third party.
trinque: but 100% agree that RSA comes in.
asciilifeform: it aint a substitute for rsa.
snsabot: Logged on 2021-05-13 17:03:18 verisimilitude: On that note, it's been a week since I last mentioned our future conversation, asciilifeform; I'm not being impatient, and had considered mentioning I'd mention it again in one week, but thought that unnecessary, then.
verisimilitude: On that note, it's been a week since I last mentioned our future conversation, asciilifeform; I'm not being impatient, and had considered mentioning I'd mention it again in one week, but thought that unnecessary, then.
asciilifeform: then of course there are the 'historic' cases, e.g. where a telegraph in ru existed 7y prior to morse (but 'military secret' derpitude), c. cocks and his rsa (british seekrit) prior to rivest, etc
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: pretty tight space if including e.g. rsa signatures.
adlai: realtime ~= both participants of th econversation place a watch on the table
adlai: however, that conversation has fractured between at least two of the places where I've been talking my head off.
feedbot: http://mvdstandard.net/2021/03/mercosur-30th-anniversary-meeting-highlights-dissatisfaction-with-argentine-ballast-as-president-lacalle-pou-confronts-argentine-despot-fernandez/ << The Montevideo Standard -- MERCOSUR 30th Anniversary Meeting Highlights Dissatisfaction With Argentine "Ballast" As President Lacalle Pou Confronts Argentine Despot Fernandez
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-03-13#1033179 << this is in principle how it oughta be ('if you can decrypt it, it's for you') but in practice gnarly simply because rsa is cpu-expensive
adlai: reddit at least has one forum called "ChangeMyView", where people go specifically in order to have open conversation; the generic "comment on news story" model does not prime folks for learning, only for responding.
adlai must confess: while sober - wastes time at solving trivial textbook problems of group theory, iteratively alpha-beta-ing mobile games, sieving reddit for interesting conversations [e.g. "what if you owned an acre, but no municipal garbage collection?"]
asciilifeform gotta repeat the ancient wisdom of ye olde 1990s sci.crypt newsgroup : 'i solved rsa!111' paper would be over-9000x moar persuasive if accompanied by the private p,q primes of a famous pubkey
trinque: I'm clearly still too close to the god-forsaken cities.
shinohai: Heya pyc ... logs for chan are available in topic. Conversations start up sporadically, but logs should give you idea.
asciilifeform: 'actual' as in not mdf/particleboard/whatever other names ersatz wood goes by.
adlai: yep, this conversation is far beyond the cliff edge of talking on solid ground.
asciilifeform: ( in sci.crypt was recurrent thread: 'i broke rsa!' 'ok, here's a pubkey, gimme the priv. p,q' '...' 'i'm waiting' 'you DON'T UNDERSTAND!! MY BREAKTHROUGH!' '...' )
adlai has babbled quite a bit, and could use a few kilocalories; thank you, trinque and shinohai , for keeping the conversation going.
trinque: maybe what's being calculated with wot traversal is the probability of defection in a prisoner's dilemma between nodes.
trinque: one'd have to choose an algo for how to value the edge traversals from me to you, I think, before saying more.
verisimilitude: Sure, it's reducible, in the same way this conversation is reducible to atoms.
verisimilitude: I didn't mention Jews, but this conversation makes me think of a saying I'd thought of and have been saving since.
verisimilitude: He does recommend against using RSA, where possible, and repeats that nonsense about not writing cryptographic code at all.
verisimilitude: I'll mention this, regarding that earlier RSA discussion. I'm not experienced enough to judge this article. Be forewarned it's written by a furry, and he may visit this channel, since he checks his referrers for just this.
snsabot: (trilema) 2017-03-22 asciilifeform: aaaaanything-but-rsa!!!1111
snsabot: (trilema) 2017-03-02 asciilifeform: the 'let's use anything, ANYTHING but rsa' thing really grates on me.
snsabot: (trilema) 2017-08-07 asciilifeform: because 'you can't get tenure by saying let's-use-rsa' and you won't get $trillion if you ~do~ dig up the old blueprint
adlai: you may find it amusing that one of the quickest "nope"s out of a conversation with a professor that I ever attained on-campus was after asking, "why does statistical thermodynamics presume unbiased selection of edges"
adlai: the difference between reasoned tools and the unreasoned one is that you can't go back to using a reflex after you have decided to forsake it for the benefit of a reasoned response.
adlai: honestly, I think that's a better approach; it's a problematic topic, anyway. nitpicking people's word choice has never gone well in my conversations, and it probably doesn't go too well in those of anyone who isn't getting paid for that exact service, either.
adlai: that one line might actually respond to everything that was spoken in here since my previous conversation, although I must remark that I never viewed Mircea as some sorta upstanding role model, nor really as anything other than a generous ?illionaire who was teaching by example rather than by sermon;
verisimilitude: I've been in conversations with another fellow who wants to work on P2P communications; perhaps I'll point him here.
asciilifeform: where 'traditionally' implemented (i.e. variable-time w/ hamming weight of inputs) rsa -- leaks secrets
trinque: what's imagining a conversation with someone else but conjuring up another being, just like "I"
trinque: and I smacked 'em when they were having a conversation with their head-spirits just as I do here
adlai: several of the productions were musicals, so involved lots of choreography rehearsals. it's quite strange how distanced I've become from what I actually, in retrospect, spent a significant fraction of my life doing.
adlai: definitely was, from 4th through 12th grade; including semesters where theatre rehearsals counted as 'sports' credit for the students.
adlai: yet the logs are littered with my recent attempts to have anything remotely resembling real-time conversation using a similar point-by-point process.
asciilifeform: gpg: Signature made Sun 06 Dec 2020 08:54:11 PM EST using RSA key ID B877BC3C
adlai did recently register a few fleanode spammles, although they are all one-man ghost towns, due to neither buying spam, nor encouraging conversation.
verisimilitude: Sure, and this conversation is just atoms, but some models lose their usefulness at a point.
adlai: this CO was one of that rare breed of human who can fall asleep standing up in mid conversation, while ~he~ is talking to ~you~!
asciilifeform: imho any proposal for glorious coin-of-the-fyootoor gotta be not significantly more complicated than rsa
asciilifeform ftr does not expect magical techno-pill 'against soroses', bitcoin or otherwise, to be effective alone. imho is lunacy to expect even universal pill against cockroaches, much less soroses.
asciilifeform: mats: observe that already nothing keeps e.g. mats from signing asciilifeform's pubkey, and vice-versa. w/out any need to designate one or the other as 'authority'
billymg: could just be wishful thinking on my part but i do think it has some advantages for them. they avoid the mess of having to go door-to-door and they placate a small but potentially adversarial part of the population
snsabot: (trilema) 2016-12-11 phf: goes back to our conversation about "why you no respect ptacek". since their opinions are not hinged on any deliberately lived experience, they change them according to fashions. if you happen to be fashion aligned you'll think that they are geniuses, but as soon as you start doing your own thing, you realize just how superficial they are
cgra: the stage 2 didn't work for me as is, because texinfo seems to depend on help2man, *and* vice versa
snsabot: Logged on 2020-12-04 09:29:42 gregorynyssa: I was reading some of the old logs. this conversation was remarkable: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2015-06-24
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-12-04#1025855 << ~which~ conversation ? you linked to a date w/ almost MB of log...
gregorynyssa: I was reading some of the old logs. this conversation was remarkable: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2015-06-24
BingoBoingo: I strongly suspect there's an embargo on shooting them down. "Never interrupt enemy while they are making a mistake" and all that. F35 program has to have cost the US far more than any possible benefit that could be derived and... what real adversary would want to interrupt that
BingoBoingo: But yeah, they pretty much ruined the F35 for all the folks paying more and hoping to use it against real adversaries later
thimbronion: BingoBoingo: ok. My theory as stated doesn't stand then. I'll just mumble something to myself about Iraq not being a *real* adversary or something.
BingoBoingo: Funny enough, when I sent her off and stopped having her in the apartment three days a week... the quality of my Spanish conversation partners began a rapid climb
BingoBoingo has really just been filtering like hell early in the conversations that follow from setting up baits in addition to brute the brute force searches.
BingoBoingo: Really I have been missing these sorts of conversations that put venom in Qntra, and I have been working to recreate that sort of environment irl to so far mixed yet promising results
BingoBoingo: Grinding out conversations, a lot of trends were hard not to notice. Young black men who had ever had a taste of productive employment loved Trumpism if not Trump the man.
BingoBoingo between April and today has had a five figure number of conversations with strangers, mostly living in the zone.
asciilifeform sees it -- the earlier skip not happens, and the low byte + keyid end up 'rsa packet'
cgra: this 'rsa packet' isn't used either, just another skip
cgra: asciilifeform: it aligns, because you have this 'rsa packet' to cover up the lack of skip. it reads the remaining byte of the two-byte length field and finishes the skip job
cgra: and from then on, just happens to align. 'rsa packet' helps in this accidental alignment, but it remains a mystery to me, why this piece exists in the code
asciilifeform: cgra: i get , via ./litmus.sh asciilifeform.peh ffa_w_borrow_expr.kv.vpatch.asciilifeform.sig ffa_w_borrow_expr.kv.vpatch : VALID GPG RSA signature from asciilifeform <stas@loper-os.org>
cgra: in 'ffa_w_borrow_expr.kv.vpatch.asciilifeform.sig' the 'rsa packet' coincides with a unhashed sub-packet section. the two hash bytes and a signature section comes after that
asciilifeform: ( litmus specifically specced to work exclusively with rsa signatures; and such as were produced by gpg 1.4.x . )
asciilifeform: cgra: per rfc, it aint : the rfc supports not only rsa. but i explicitly did not.
cgra: right. do you still think the 'rsa packet' is a proper label for the section?
cgra: well, pgpdump says the unhashed sub-section contains one item "issuer key id". but litmus labels this unhashed sub-section "rsa packet", which doesn't parse in my head
cgra: per rfc4880, unhashed sub-packet section length should be 2 bytes, not 1. and so far i couldn't figure out what 'rsa packet' could mean here. litmus.sh appears to work as long as signature's unhashed sub-packet section is shorter than 256 bytes
cgra: 2) i'm comparing litmus.sh to rfc4880, and i fail to get a match: this 'rsa packet' coincides with signature's unhashed sub-packet section when the section is less than 256 bytes long. in part, it's because the unhashed section length is read as a 1-byte value, and yields 0 (the high byte).
shinohai: i gaffed asciilifeform i just need to use fg unit i *do* have to create new rsa key. have old key for deedbot as it is currently.
trinque: cgra: yes, use an RSA key, and there are key-length discussions in the old logs to be found.
asciilifeform: cgra: atm trinque's wot system is strictly rsa, afaik.
cgra: asciilifeform: i mean, i thought i'd learn some rsa etc first, to be able to decide what's 'good enough'. in case i have more choices avail than the current wot people had at their registration time
shinohai: I promise not to send trannies here to celebrate you anniversary and scam you like I did in trilema asciilifeform. ^.^
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-11-08#1024544 << some form of this is The Right Thing. but imho the naive algorithm would be very frustrating to use -- erryone will hear a great many fragments of conversations, where the participants have disjoint wots
asciilifeform prolly doomed to write one. unfortunately much moar gnarlier job than the udp lib. and sadly asciilifeform deeply mired in saecular matters atm, in efforts to get moarsaeculardough
trinque: in practice all of us had a full copy of the whole conversation through the entire "republic"
gregorynyssa: verisimilitude: coincidentally I had the same conversation with asciilifeform two months ago. have a look at: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-08-22#1020105
verisimilitude: I'm going to answer yes, but it may not be so relevant to this particular conversation; I encourage anyone to read it, however.
cgra: i suppose in the long run, shouldn't hurt to exercise my brain though (for reading versatility), asciilifeform have any idea from where did this model of thinking got stuck?
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-08-12#1018765 << I just found out that David Graeber passed away a few weeks after we had this conversation.
adlai: old conversation of tangential relevance, for anyone catching up half a decade after the fact; distinct from, although not unrelated to, the dust-band radio
adlai: and all ~irrelevant, since the market is saturated, and nobody is exactly flooding me with offers to oversaturate it!
adlai: I mean "dirty word" in the sense that this conversation included FFA, just a few screenfulls ago, so 'prove' means much more than just "screenshot of my account; screenshot of friend's account; look, exchange is scammer!"
snsabot: (trilema) 2015-04-09 ascii_field: what he did was, essentially, steal a usg mega-product - macsyma, the first really universal computer algebra system, thousands of man-years of
verisimilitude: So, trinque, I've not seen any direct thoughts on my MMC since our conversation; care to share those thoughts?
asciilifeform: gpg: Signature made Mon 07 Sep 2020 12:13:49 PM EDT using RSA key ID FAB953C4
verisimilitude: I figured it was in poor taste to partake in the conversation; had it not come so swiftly after adlai's announcement, I likely wouldn't've bothered with it, asciilifeform.
BingoBoingo: <thimbronion> Bring back dueling! << This conversation seems likely to happen here. Dueling here only ended rather recently
asciilifeform: i'm not universally 'for' or 'against' any of these. but defo 'for' truth-in-marketing.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-08-22#1020096 << re (1) -- if you aint a credentialed academic, or multimillion-$ donor, the conversation ends up ~very~ short.
asciilifeform: welcome to #a btw, Aerthean. plz consider sitting long enuff to have conversation...
edef: i have considered similar concepts in terms of playing with representation, and am enjoying seeing others write about it (i have never really had a blog, conversations are a much more natural medium to me)
asciilifeform must bbl, but will come back. edef don't hesitate to speak, i'ma answer in the log later. (is large part of why public logs are valuable. can have conversations that span years, if necessary.)
edef: my current best shot at finding IRC conversations is ripgrep through text files, i haven't got any full-text indexing on that
edef: asciilifeform: for example, i am not meaningfully opposed to Signal's timed disappearing messages — they establish a shared context where the ephemerality of the conversation is mutually understood
asciilifeform: briefly revisiting this crackpottery -- it occurs to asciilifeform that 'streaming' oughta be ultra-simple to p2pize -- simply transmit hash(next frame) w/ each frame, starting from 1st. (and, if you like, rsa-sign the 1st.)
asciilifeform: shinohai: it was from iron poverty that rsa did not catch on, even in 'golden toilet' circles, until '90s..
asciilifeform: ( nor bothers to discuss for ~what~ one might want a microcomp in the imagined apocalyptic hellscape. you can't productively rsa on z80 ( asciilifeform tried ) . so wat's left ? one last game of tetris before you eat yer .45 ? )
snsabot: Logged on 2020-07-24 17:24:58 verisimilitude: I once had a conversation, longer back, about how burdensome current machines make it to account for all failure cases, to be told roughly ``Who wants to write a program that works correctly in all instances?'' by a proud C programmer.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-07-24 17:24:58 verisimilitude: I once had a conversation, longer back, about how burdensome current machines make it to account for all failure cases, to be told roughly ``Who wants to write a program that works correctly in all instances?'' by a proud C programmer.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-07-24 17:24:58 verisimilitude: I once had a conversation, longer back, about how burdensome current machines make it to account for all failure cases, to be told roughly ``Who wants to write a program that works correctly in all instances?'' by a proud C programmer.
verisimilitude: I once had a conversation, longer back, about how burdensome current machines make it to account for all failure cases, to be told roughly ``Who wants to write a program that works correctly in all instances?'' by a proud C programmer.
mats: i miss reading the regular conversations between you and mp, it was a weekly thing for me
asciilifeform: whaack: btw on some linuxen ssh client defaults to rsa, on others -- not (and also depends on config in /etc)
whaack: hm weird i get an rsa fingerprint when i ssh with one computer and an ecdsa fingerprint when i ssh with another
asciilifeform: whaack: i'ma send you rsa fp shortly. ( after you get in, i assume will want to regen keys anyway, and use whichever you prefer )
whaack: asciilifeform: You sent me an ecdsa fingerprint and i see an rsa fingerprint, is there a way to switch my local ssh to see the ecdsa fingerprint?
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: esp. given that fleanode/usg logs universally.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-06-23 17:33:47 adlai: incidentally, one of the most interesting conversations that I ever overheard was between two young israelis who were speaking modern hebrew with american ebonic inflection!
shinohai: gpg: encrypted with RSA key, ID 73708B0E No secret key available.
adlai: kanzure's channel is ##hplusroadmap, dunno what you mean by haskellisms... I have often seen FP proponents there, although most of the conversations are either scifi wankery, or folks griping about the crap quality of their secondhand equipment
asciilifeform 'refreshingly' not entirely forsaken by these vermin, e.g. the anonism pushers in www comments do still show up
adlai still lurks on-and-off in kanzure's channel, although it often just results in pointless arguments instead of productive conversation
adlai: incidentally, one of the most interesting conversations that I ever overheard was between two young israelis who were speaking modern hebrew with american ebonic inflection!
asciilifeform: in 1970s, a sov. expedition to taiga found some uncontacted old believers. could barely have conversation, spoke 1600s dialect. they had a preserved brass kettle.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-06-04 04:16:18 adlai: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-06-03#1014171 << perhaps the flow of blame is "coolest kids use bouncer, so I'ma configure bouncer to highest-SNR channels"... and these folks think, for some reason, that all conversation must be synchronous.
adlai: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-06-03#1014171 << perhaps the flow of blame is "coolest kids use bouncer, so I'ma configure bouncer to highest-SNR channels"... and these folks think, for some reason, that all conversation must be synchronous.
asciilifeform: it was actually not clear to me, how he sells the thing w/ 1way photodiode, if it requires 2-way conversation w/ stock trb, to work
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: all of the commercially-sold archs were 'to run c', i.e. lack type bits, bounds checks, etc. but lispm is very separate conversation from 'cpu to plant linux on'
adlai will read your elaboration on the subject, since apparently this is one of the few places remaining on the 'net where such a conversation can be had civilly.
adlai: theRealHashBrown: "Phuctor will return!" (see conversations leading up to http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-10-28#1948552 for the details of why/where it went)
adlai: e.g., i often wonder whether people think i'm a plainclothes prompter for off-duty military folks, since i've had a bunch of conversations that could've interested the kind of people who do this for a living
asciilifeform: ( if you had 'pill for rsa', wouldja tell anyone? i sure as hell wouldn't )
asciilifeform: Apocalyptic: this is universally the case in crypto. recall coventry.
asciilifeform: if it's a coupla shifts, adds, xor's -- yes. if it's rsa, prolly not
ben_vulpes: BingoBoingo: also smoked museum pieces generating rsa keys
Vexual: ch1 prolly more parsable than stan brother convo
asciilifeform: iirc w/ his variant, ~400msec 4096b rsaism.
asciilifeform: ( incl. keygenning, that is. rsa e.g. verification already worx and ch20 concerned pgp-eatin' )
asciilifeform: ch22 will be specifically rsa demo.
shinohai just noticed he was in simultaneous conversation abt old women posting on xhamster and posted wrong link ....
asciilifeform: ( it is not difficult to infer rsa pubkey from large body of valid ciphertexts )
asciilifeform: timestamp & random 'nonce' you will want visible in plaintext, so as not to blow cpu cycles rsaing on replayed crud
asciilifeform: key is that neither participant in 'conversation' ought to give a damn re originating ip of replies
asciilifeform: and so happens that i've already posted world's simplest rsatron. which, also happens, beats koch's speedwise even w/out bvt's asmism patches.
asciilifeform: orig aim specifically was 'eat udp packets w/ rsaolade'
asciilifeform: my ffa plan includes eventual port to that machine, for pocket-sized rsatronics.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-04-27 13:51:41 asciilifeform: afaik all old rsatrons used euclid's algo for the m-even case. i.e. with division. which cannot be constant-timespaced .
asciilifeform: afaik all old rsatrons used euclid's algo for the m-even case. i.e. with division. which cannot be constant-timespaced .
asciilifeform: ( and in particular , rsa keygen requires working with an even modulus, cuz (p - 1)(q - 1) is, unsurprisingly , even )
asciilifeform: Apocalyptic: the likely reason you haven't heard of it, is that most traditional rsatrons use montgomery's. which dun work on even #s, and this is considered acceptable usually in single-purpose rsa proggy. but doesn't cut in in general-purpose numeric system .
asciilifeform: finally, ~3y after starting series, can generate rsa keys...
asciilifeform: among other places , is needed in rsa key gen .
asciilifeform: as for why gpg -- at that time it was the most lightweight rsa proggy available.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-02-05 17:08:54 asciilifeform: shinohai: i sincerely hope that mp et al actually try to bake this, it'll be hilarious to watch ( where signing e.g. linux kernel will need coupla 10,000s of rsa invocations, auto-recognition of 'what lang' so to get the comment & demarcation syntax, and coupld 10MB of entropy.. )
shinohai: Nothing so far I couldn't work out on said whiteboard. Has got me thinking a lot on RSA.
asciilifeform: in e.g. warsaw ghetto, all the way until 'day x' there was a restaurant where caviar served.
asciilifeform: meanwhile in cocksucker anon chorus lulz.
asciilifeform: iirc mp vaguely disliked it, for impugning his relig. faith in 'unbreakable rsa'
asciilifeform: who read 1-6, can write rsa verifier in any lang.
asciilifeform: 6 is the end of the 'max simple/slow rsa' warmup sequence.
asciilifeform: rsa only seems 'instant' when happens 1x, when manually pressed key in e.g. gpg. but if you want coupla 10k rsaings, suddenly becomes obv that no, not 'instant'.
asciilifeform: this means, to sign project, N rsa invocations, where N files. and to press tree, N * n_s where n_s is # of signers.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-02-05 17:08:54 asciilifeform: shinohai: i sincerely hope that mp et al actually try to bake this, it'll be hilarious to watch ( where signing e.g. linux kernel will need coupla 10,000s of rsa invocations, auto-recognition of 'what lang' so to get the comment & demarcation syntax, and coupld 10MB of entropy.. )
jurov: ..and it seem to generate rsa keys faster!
adlai intended to link a different line from that same conversation, although there is no need for a correction since the conversation should probably be read along with the article
shinohai: Just the entire conversation was amusing, no matter how predictable. The new generation at work.
verisimilitude: Alright; I've not visited this before; your index page is missing its doctype and an ampersand hasn't been escaped properly.
Vexual: immarsat is cheap
mod6: Ok, off I go to work on these a bit more. Will report back when ready for testing. Thanks for the conversation.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-02-11#1006214 << see e.g. this schoolbook review .
asciilifeform: ( an iron rsatron , in pci card, ~might~, but they'll have one some time after they have mars colony )
asciilifeform: for 4096b rsa, multiply this by ~1.7...
asciilifeform: let's do for lulz some arithm. i have a linux-3.16.70.tar handy, and inside 47452 files. now, a modexp (2048bit!) on ye olde koch-rsa eats 0.639s on my machine. so that'd be ~8.42 hours. not counting the hashing (my timing example did not include hashing, had pre-baked operands).
asciilifeform: shinohai: for bonus lulz, he wants to use the slow rsa from my wastebasket (aka 'eucrypt'). so promises to be interesting.
asciilifeform: shinohai: i sincerely hope that mp et al actually try to bake this, it'll be hilarious to watch ( where signing e.g. linux kernel will need coupla 10,000s of rsa invocations, auto-recognition of 'what lang' so to get the comment & demarcation syntax, and coupld 10MB of entropy.. )
asciilifeform: classical branching-code impl.s of rsa (e.g. koch's) leak entire priv after coupla hundred privops (to anyone with sufficient 'ears' to listen correctly)
asciilifeform: without fast, constant-time rsa -- any realtime mechanism will leak privkey.
asciilifeform: mike_c: the 'holy grail' still would be an iron which can 4096bit rsa 'at line rate' (1G/s) , but this is as i understand impossible w/out baking silicon.
asciilifeform: i expect at some pt he'll 'reinvent' pki also. what insubordinate nonsense, where plebes can rsa w/out permission from the throne!1
shinohai: i like where conversation headed towards v.sh
shinohai: But no, outside of irc, no "real" conversation occurs.
shinohai: VALID GPG RSA signature from Diana Coman <office@dianacoman.com>
shinohai: VALID GPG RSA signature from shinohai <btcinfo@sdf.org>
asciilifeform: rsa sigs in general are computed by taking x = n ^ public_exponent mod public_modulus and comparing x to a specified form, called 'padding'
Apocalyptic: you mean RSA-Public-Exponent for the second right
shinohai: so as far as peh tapes go, @RSA-Public-Modulus@ is `N` and @RSA-Public-Modulus@ is the exponent correct?
shinohai: Spanish kinda worked best for me just getting out there and holding conversations in it, never really did videos.
asciilifeform: i put it in same garbage bin as e.g. fuhrer's method for multiplication. i.e. useful for outlandishly large (multi-MB) integers, but not for rsa or any other extant cryptosystem.
asciilifeform spent very little time attempting to find a sub-quadratic constant-spacetime algo for gcd, because gcd aint any kind of bottleneck in rsa or any cryptosystem i know of
asciilifeform: Apocalyptic: i advocate constant-spacetime arithmetic for e.g. rsa not only because abolishes 'side-channel' leakage, but also because it makes proofs of correctness actually possible.
asciilifeform: shinohai: current ffa/peh lacks hashing so cannot yet advertise 'replace gpg universally'
shinohai: As far as creating a "public" rsa key, just have to have ffa calculate your "N" and "E" neh?
asciilifeform: i.e. signatures made via gpg 1.4.10 , set to max supported hash (sha512) on 2048...8192b rsa keys, specifically, supported. anyffing else can go pound sand.
asciilifeform: mike_c: naively one might expect constant-spacetime (i.e. 1^1 mod 1 takes same time and memory, in particular bitness, as any other modular exp) would be ruinously slow; but in practice faster than heathen rsa routines, on acct of the peculiarities of current-day cpus .
asciilifeform: ffa ain't limited to rsa, however; is general-purpose numerics-in-constant-spacetime kit.
asciilifeform: my approach to rsa, was to derive a closed algebraic form for all of the necessary operations, so in fact can express'em w/out data-dependent branching or memory indexing. which thermonukes side-channelism, but as bonus also makes the algos '9000x' easier to analyze by hand.
asciilifeform: the series is ~complete (needs still ability to hash, to be deployable for practical rsaism; but can be used in fact as-is w/ external hashism even nao)