diana_coman: I always read asciilifeform's "meat" along the lines of "call of the annoying reality of existence in human form"
asciilifeform: eyeball-powered diff, when there is a mechanical one, is nuttery
a111: Logged on 2018-01-18 20:53 mircea_popescu: nothing prevents you from saying "this is the genesis of apeloyee's fantastical funicular, it consists of a cog i stole from alf's exceptional exsudator, some other bits i wrote myself and various parts i forgot where i stole" ; but something QUITE fundamental prevents you from writing down "include #fucksticks" and to have a helpful paperclip pop out of nowhere in your emacs guts and declare "this so far looks like you're pu
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-18#1772477 << in ideal vtron, the 'and i stole x from a, y from b...' is protocolic, rather than promisetronic. i.e. abolition of eyeball-powered diff.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-18 20:33 BingoBoingo: From the WaPo: "Six buses operated by Silicon Valley tech companies to shuttle employees to their offices have been attacked on the highway over the past week. The California Highway Patrol reports that four Apple and one Google bus had their windows shattered on Tuesday by unidentified projectiles"
asciilifeform: ( and it ain't too far from the troof... )
diana_coman: in the "it takes human hand"? the thing put together needs taken apart of similar nature
a111: Logged on 2018-01-18 20:58 mircea_popescu: the problem is that later on, eucrypt's smg_keccak will be pulled into the main to be used for purposes ; if EVEN LATER it gets a patch, phf will then not actually have a way to seamlessly "get just the patch", he will have to regrind at that time anyway.
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-18#1772485 <- after things are put together by human hand it takes human hand to take them apart, yes, unsurprising; point is it's enough to choose and pick out of the desired vpatch what is relevant (i.e. for keccak in this example) and that's as far as it goes
mircea_popescu: which is why the original "do not link across v trees"
mircea_popescu: ie, this "independent parts in an automatic fashion" is a hope impossible in practice. the only way he can have it is if HE reads it, as it is found wherever it is found (eucrypt as it happens here), and then HE puts it in, as a regrind, ie, yes, "de novo" item.
mircea_popescu: the problem is that later on, eucrypt's smg_keccak will be pulled into the main to be used for purposes ; if EVEN LATER it gets a patch, phf will then not actually have a way to seamlessly "get just the patch", he will have to regrind at that time anyway.
mircea_popescu: consider concretely the case of eucrypt's keccak. diana_coman is writing it as a direct derivation off genesis, meaning on extant v impls if one wanted to import it they could import JUST it, without the rest of eucrypt (it'll be pulled in later through the usual procedure in eucrypt itself). superficially this may seem like it encourages phf to go "o i know, i'll just link keccak patch into my codebase rather than regring (i
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771941 << it means the bar for what may be acceptable primitives is slightly lower than before ; this is not necessarily avoidable though, the advantage of having alphabet starts around having twenty or so letters only ; fifty letter "alphabet" is not much better than 5000 hieroglyphery.
mircea_popescu: in other words, the only maker of independence in the realm of thought is the hand of man, and this can't be fixed.
mircea_popescu: because it'd need guile to do and guile is shit. if for no other reason. comprende ?
mircea_popescu: nothing prevents you from saying "this is the genesis of apeloyee's fantastical funicular, it consists of a cog i stole from alf's exceptional exsudator, some other bits i wrote myself and various parts i forgot where i stole" ; but something QUITE fundamental prevents you from writing down "include #fucksticks" and to have a helpful paperclip pop out of nowhere in your emacs guts and declare "this so far looks like you're pu
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 19:55 asciilifeform: iirc mircea_popescu's argument was that it is wrong to say that they could ~ever~ be properly independent. and that if they could be shown to be independent, they ought to be separate v-trees.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771939 << this is quite it, for half of the problem ; for the other half -- ANYTHING is independent if you make it so, just put it in your genesis.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771920 << quite rly ; the south american south is remarkably peaceful, nobody needs (or wants) them for much.
mircea_popescu: well, this is the curse of magic words.
mircea_popescu: mod6 the magic string diff uses is "+++ " ie three plusses AND A SPACE
mod6: mircea_popescu: also, fwiw, we might need to adjust our "NO '--- ' or '+++ ' to begin a line in a vpatch to "NO '-- ' or '++ '". There was a vpatch in development where my vtron choked on a line being added into a source file that began with '++', and with the diff '+', became '+++'. My vtron correctly choked here. But maybe a bit of an adjustment to the rule?
BingoBoingo: From the WaPo: "Six buses operated by Silicon Valley tech companies to shuttle employees to their offices have been attacked on the highway over the past week. The California Highway Patrol reports that four Apple and one Google bus had their windows shattered on Tuesday by unidentified projectiles"
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> if anyone is wondering, alf lives in a sausage plant. there's lots of meat. << been wondering if I should move in with him, or take bets on when he gets scurvy
shinohai: Heh, in my my mind I always imagined asciilifeform living in abattoir because of the "brb, meats"
mircea_popescu: if anyone is wondering, alf lives in a sausage plant. there's lots of meat.
phf: or lovers, like what is it, the two gentlemen of verona
mircea_popescu: i can't think of major examples outside of the star wars thing (coulkdn't think of that either until pointed out). commedia is mostly brothers.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> or is that just hollywoods << The Greeks did it!
asciilifeform: i thought it was typically fathers
mircea_popescu: bread and butter of cheap fiction, "you don't know who your brother is"
phf: ascii vs brother doesn't strike me as that kind of relationship. more like "you have to learn much little one, and i have N years on you"
mircea_popescu: incidentally asciilifeform is apeloyee actually http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=from%3Aascii+brother ?
mircea_popescu: (but since we're on it -- the enduring interest in obfuscated-c is strictly this, "let us try and write a novel in orthogonal language ; this should be done in c because it's very much not orthogonal". became a self-recursing joke, that the practitioners don't even properly understand, just sorta-feel. BECAUSE they talk about it in natural languages.)
mircea_popescu: and all this goes right into that older thread of ambiguity, orthogonality and language -- you can never make a language that's orthogonal and ~useful~ in the natural sense. let alone "that anyone'd want to use".
mircea_popescu: you could not have written such a tagging mechanism as it'd have permitted a machine to recognize the substance of what you were saying when discussing "pointers" which weren't.
mircea_popescu: and this identity is also fluent, because different things are the same thing, such as no further than earlier the "you really want a lisp stack". this recognition is only there because of personal knowledge, and absent otherwise.
asciilifeform: in what other way does anything fit-in-head ?
mircea_popescu: the strong statement here is that the ~only~ possible identity bits of code have is based on ~personal memory~. to revisit the oft used bubblesort example -- any particular implementation of bubblesort IS bubblesort because ~you~ recognize it as such and for ~no other reason~, factual ~or possible~. consequently fits in head as the basis of code identity.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform quite evident ; but yes, i believe wrong problem to solve. "oh lord, how could bits of code have an identity ?" "why ?" "so they could be my girflriends" "Come on!"
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 19:34 apeloyee: files are NOT INDEPENDENT. despite CVS and v pretending they are. this is a problem. you could have required some form of cryptographic commitment to either the tree state or even the antedecent patches themselves, but didn't
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771907 << v is not at all pretending they are ; that's accidental misconstruction.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 19:32 asciilifeform: apeloyee: the 'liable to change' thing was very much NOT part of my orig design for v.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771903 << because didn't seriously think of the particular problem, which happens with prototypes.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman cool deal then.
diana_coman: they will be grouped into as few chapters as possible of course
phf: never mind then! i gotta figure out how to do the whole "file moved part" anyway, and i don't need a hashing function yet. i'm using a sha512 implementation from busybox
diana_coman: padding, bitstream, sponge, oaep to follow; currently still in the works
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform don't tell me you didn't take your volkskomputi to the commissariat for the mandatory urine injections or what was it.
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, yes, all that there is still only... first part
mircea_popescu: diana_coman ah, is it a two part item then ?
mircea_popescu: seems one of the most promising.
asciilifeform: aha, it's on the side-point list.
asciilifeform: it's a variant. not currently convinced that it is The Right Thing.
asciilifeform: ( i considered lispism, rejected for the given application strictly on account of moving-parts-count , 'p' gotta have parachute-level simplicity )
mircea_popescu: why not actually do it then, and first construct an ada circular ring lisp-memory stack first ?
asciilifeform: it already lives in the forth hole, lol
mircea_popescu: note how ffa ends up satisfying the greenspun rule, through the predictable entry point.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771869 << thinking about this, it seems that both a) a re-implementation of the lisp memory model is unavoidable for any serious purpose and b) the place where the rewrite will start is the stack ; are true.
asciilifeform: ( you have to satisfy the compiler that it has exactly same 'life' as the item pointed-to. and in practice this is quite difficult. )
asciilifeform: ada working in normal mode typically won't even let you take a pointer of an object on the stack.
asciilifeform: ( the ada passing by reference semantics give you almost anything that c programmers typically want from pointerism )
asciilifeform: so long as you don't use the heap, you more or less can dispense with traditional pointers.
asciilifeform: ( spoiler : you can trivially implement linked list without -- properly speaking -- pointers, but with integers, this also came up in the earlier 'lisp in ada' thread )
mircea_popescu: ah you don't actually mean to use pointers, just a lisp-style memory emulator for the stack itself
mircea_popescu eats then
asciilifeform: right. but... i'ma let mircea_popescu eat rest of the thread
BingoBoingo: By all appearances though the Englishman is functionally taking his vacation on Facebook.
BingoBoingo: And there's an old USian chasing 80 degree temps for his arthritis and going to AA meetings that at least made an effort at memorizing phrases before he fucked off to Buenos Aires
BingoBoingo: And the Brasileros without spanish can usually get by on the latin language mutual intelligibity deal
asciilifeform: even on pnoje there are language gamez etc
BingoBoingo: Apparently one can have fun in Punta Del Este with zero spanish provided they have a Trump budget, but it is a serious WTFism.
BingoBoingo: ^ and asciilifeform before you ask, even if he is a spy he can't effectively because the girl he can't talk too is too smitten.
deedbot: http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2018/01/18/the-sad-man-from-england/ << Bingo Blog - The Sad Man From England
asciilifeform: unrelatedly , asciilifeform recently found out that you can still buy old-style SLC ('single layer') ssd. 100,000+ write cycle endurance instead of the ubiquitous MLC ('multi layer') ~10,000 . for approx 8x the cost. has, supposedly, considerably faster writes, also.
BingoBoingo: It's the default Brasilero music
trinque: not familiar, only heard blaring out of lowriders now and then
BingoBoingo: Or however the Brasileros spell it
shinohai: trinque: I had the same issue with Mexicans. A little death metal solved it.
deedbot: http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2018/01/18/datacenter-costs/ << Bingo Blog - Datacenter Costs
trinque has venezuelans living directly below. there was a long battle over whether THOOM THOOM THOOM was music
BingoBoingo: They leave Venezuala for reasons
shinohai: BingoBoingo: You think that 'terp of yours can get us in on the Venezuelan Gov't ICO ? xD
BingoBoingo: http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2017/11/16/tbi-mid-november-update/ << Yeah, there's more numbers now.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo did you ever publish the datacenter price details ?
BingoBoingo baking next post about the very sad hombre de Inglaterra
deedbot: http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2018/01/18/and-the-residency-process-has-started/ << Bingo Blog - And The Residency Process Has Started
diana_coman: taking of baking, these eucrypt blog posts feel like cozonaci : always sort of growing more than I expect them, no matter what adjustment to expectations previous batch caused
mircea_popescu: so is diana_coman ; and earlier ave1 ! truly spectacular republica output these days!
shinohai: In which mircea_popescu demonstrates the `Loli-pop`
asciilifeform: ( in re the latest article )
asciilifeform: funnily enuff this is maybe the 5th or 6th trilema piece in a row that asciilifeform finished eating just prior to deedbot displaying
mircea_popescu rests easy in the knowledge he's penned the most outrageous item ever written in english, by such a margin as to permanently defy competition
a111: Logged on 2016-11-18 15:15 mircea_popescu: gotta kyc in case the fat tard over at the us park administration gets tired of asking for special booth at burning man and wants to peruse pics of subtards licking fish through a screen of milk, gotta have the pics ready for him!!11
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes dja happen to have a link to the original case of http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-18#1569630 ? iirc you reported it, maybe 2014s
shinohai: "A promise from the SCAM coin team: We won't sleep until SCAM coin has been successfully listed on at least one shitty exchange." <<< Truth in advertising now I guess.
asciilifeform has the 2 or 3 different 'z-' shitcoins perma-symlinked in head
asciilifeform: didn't that nonsense implode..? or was that z-somethingorother.
asciilifeform had nfi that the monerists were still around
asciilifeform: 'The United States federal government has paid approximately half a million dollars to a private corporation to help various agencies conduct surveillance on the Bitcoin blockchain' << pretty lulzy, that's, e.g., 3 janitors, 2 clerks, 1 intern, for 1yr
shinohai: http://archive.is/n3JWg <<< Should just go ahead and make Barry Shillbert an official member of the Trump admin.
ave1: http://ave1.org/2018/building-gnat-on-musl-now-with-a-signature/ script to build GNAT, now with signature and the result can compile ch1
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 17:42 asciilifeform: possibly there ought to be not 1 but... 4 null cells
mircea_popescu: saying "well i can't protect car from usage of idiots" is one thing, but having the gas and break pedals not ever interchange is the other thing.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 15:30 asciilifeform: has apeloyee found a specific instance where it can be made to eggog ? or is this a hypothetical 'once less clueful people start changing things' observation ?
mircea_popescu: they just play trivial pursuit see.
asciilifeform: 'The registered office of Cardano Foundation is: Cardano Stiftung, Gubelstrasse 11, 6300 Zug, Switzerland.' classy.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 13:09 esthlos: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-16#1771055 << My thought was to scrap the current client in favor of a customized one, with eucrypt protocol as the backbone. Is this 1. not what you want, or 2. a bad idea?
mircea_popescu: "Cardano is a decentralised public blockchain and cryptocurrency project and is fully open source. Cardano is developing a smart contract platform which seeks to deliver more advanced features than any protocol previously developed. It is the first blockchain platform to evolve out of a scientific philosophy and a research-first driven approach. Thedevelopment team consists of a large global collective of expert engineers and
mircea_popescu: o check it out asciilifeform "cardano" the coin is up 25%!!1
deedbot: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2146 << Loper OS - Rodenticide with the Seiko DPU414 Tape Printer.
asciilifeform: i read the linked manual in '08 and will admit that i did not find it very interesting. it is the same kind of dead end as dylan.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-04 20:06 asciilifeform: in other 'news', it is apparently impossible to fit even ONE 4096-bit adder into an ice40-8k ( the largest in the series )
asciilifeform: unfortunately i do not have any way to make asic. as for fpga, none exist of the necessary size. ( see e.g. http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1764242 )
a111: Logged on 2017-05-16 22:10 asciilifeform: unrelatedly, 'finite precision number systems and arithmetic' (kornerup & matula, cambridge press) is mega-b00k, the only one i've found on subj that is NOT a mere plagiarism of knuth, has useful algos for e.g. carry-free ops, hardwarizations
asciilifeform: i have a similar item , http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-16#1657241 , it proved to be of very, very limited help for ffa , the constraint of the pc arch limits the use of fancy adders etc
asciilifeform: the demo chapter seems to have a very, very detailed discussion of machine arithmetic.
amberglint: with the same Harris
asciilifeform: i do not like vhdl; and do not see the point of 'systemverilog' (vs classical); but these are my personal prefs
asciilifeform: and diana_coman , and possibly others.
asciilifeform: (possibly he had other temp name, i cannot now recall.)
asciilifeform: he's a very clever maths d00d. logs in every other week or so, nitpicks re fine points of ffa.
amberglint: yeah, I caught almost everyone ru-speaking in the logs though I didn't know about apeloyee
asciilifeform: phf also from ru; and iirc so is apeloyee; asciilifeform from old su but marooned in usa; mircea_popescu speaks (more than he is willing to admit, lol) ru; possibly other folx, tuned in but still lurking, also.
amberglint: btcbase.org is the logotron of my choice
asciilifeform: amberglint: i assume you already know about the log ( btcbase.org/log & elsewhere ) then.
amberglint: I was reading the logs for a while, thought about joining you earlier but felt a bit intimidated to be honest
asciilifeform: ( or found #t first ? or other ? )
diana_coman: k, I'll try that as soon as mod6 finds the patch
asciilifeform: nope. phf afaik has the 1 and only mechanically-correct vtron. mod6 has a prototype of the 2nd.
diana_coman: ah, I missed that then, I thought yours was grabbing leaf by leaf too
asciilifeform: afaik the only correct vtron currently existing , in this respect, is phf's.
diana_coman: uh oh, it seems asciilifeform's v misbehaves too: when pressing a leaf that has genesis as antecedent it presses ALSO all other descendants of genesis from what I can tell
asciilifeform: i was watching like usual with no audio. if anyone thinks i misses something thereby -- plox to write in.
mod6: diana_coman: you mean the patch for 99993? yeah, i pasted it in here.... lemme look for it quick.
asciilifeform: 'John Mallery @jcmallery_cyber 25 Dec 2017 Declinism is a psyop of adversaries...it was spread before during the Vietnam war.' << ahahahaha gold
asciilifeform: why not also nag the statueofliberty, or washington monument.
asciilifeform: observe sponsor 'raytheon'.
asciilifeform: 'Cyber space is an increasingly risky discourse and therefore will inevitably be securitised.' << exactly what i said: usg stuffed shirt.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-13 21:52 mod6: Lords and Ladies of The Most Serene Republic, I have created a blog post outlining the behavior changes in 99993. Please take a look and consider these changes. Let me know if you have any comments or questions! Thanks in advance. http://www.mod6.net/2018/99993/99993-changes.html
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-13#1770368 <- mod6 did you publish this anywhere? it seems I might even have another test-case for it.. (version 99994 dies on it complaining that .vpatch is invalid)
a111: Logged on 2014-03-21 04:58 mircea_popescu: understand that the most economic way to run the economy - now as during 1614 - is to just turn off all machinery, lock all warehouses and bury the key
asciilifeform: what little clue there is, points to his having been an nsa asset since youth.
asciilifeform: ( and if it is, it is by playing usg piano correctly, rather than by training replacement retis )
asciilifeform: the racket is not , as far as i can tell, intended to outlive the current participants.
asciilifeform: otherwise mallery would have long ago hired a 'spare' or two, and afaik he never has.
asciilifeform: neither dks nor reti are really needed, to provide this 'support'.
asciilifeform: fromloper: i suspect not. because the 'support' is really ceremonial
fromloper: asciilifeform: maybe he'll give up if something happens to DKS and Kalman Reti so he'll be out of people capable to do the job, both of them are rather old
asciilifeform: fromloper: if he gave it out, potentially someone else could bid on the support contract ( under american law, all contracts are theoretically publicly biddable . lockheed et al simply contrive to set up situation where no one else ~can~ perform a given contract )
fromloper: Kalman Reti said 4 years ago: "The problem is that the Symbolics IP is now owned by John Mallery; he has stated he has plans for making it available but so far (several years) has not yet done so."
asciilifeform: and when he dies they will pay for his sons' yachts. etc
fromloper: I'm curious what John C. Mallery intends to do with his property, other than collect support cheques
asciilifeform: there will be no second coming of commercial bolix.
asciilifeform: the ones who hoard secrets because they imagine that they have a ticket to being part of some future commercial revival of bolix, however -- those are idiots.
asciilifeform: some people spent $10k's on their collections of bolixiana. and imagine that these will become worthless if an accurate fpgalogical emulator appears. and for all i know , this is true. i simply don't care.
asciilifeform: this is a hypothesis. so far my best one.
asciilifeform: i -- want. and this is why by and large they do not talk to me. they know about my www, they knew where to find me. they also know that i will publicly and immediately leak any bolixologial document that i am given. and want to make emulator. and for this, i suspect, they do not talk to me.
fromloper: I've read the whisperers discussion here, seems to be plausible
asciilifeform: fromloper: currently i suspect that many, possibly majority, of serious bolix collectors, ~do not want~ there to be an accurate emulator.
asciilifeform: similar in fact to the one in everybody's old 486
a111: Logged on 2017-08-21 14:43 phf: i spent (mostly another whisperer and myself did) on getting vlm stable, and i'm unconvinced that some of the issues we encountered were purely "buggy vlm". there is, for example, a crash in floating point instruction that happens when you load document examiner on stock piratebay opengenera. i have no explanation for it still, because vlm code ~seems to do the right thing~. there are other similar instances
fromloper: http://archive.is/zw03T << Rainer Joswig speaks of some secret team maintaining the emulator, I wonder if he means http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-21#1701489
asciilifeform: afaik the standalone ones, did
asciilifeform: ( for n00bz to the subj -- fep was an entire comp, mc68k, embedded inside bolix lispm, handled i/o and certain aspects of eggogology )
asciilifeform: fromloper: in re ivoryology, another unknown is the fep. virtually nothing is publicly known about the fep.
fromloper: I wonder if it's going to ask for a license key like Macsyma on the same disk does
asciilifeform: and iirc phf has a working ivory -- worth trying there also
asciilifeform: for all i know, the one and only path to e.g. a room-temperature supercon, was found at one of the reagan scamola firms, and died with it, also. i simply do not know about it.
asciilifeform: ( where i know for a fact that they Had Something )
asciilifeform: there is an entire graveyard of these; it simply so happens that i am only interested in the lispm-flavoured ones
asciilifeform: thinkingmachines co was another such. died same way.
asciilifeform: to be fair the company was not really a honest commercial co, moar like one of those unofficial usg research institutes, they proliferated under reagan and died with him
asciilifeform: ( in usa for some reason it is traditional for ceo to be paid mega-bonus even when the company tanks )
asciilifeform: and yes the ones still alive, all work ~somewhere~, symbolics did not make anybody aside from the yacht brahmins rich
fromloper: so there is at least one possible address, gotta try it
asciilifeform: and i haven't seen him anywhere since, either
fromloper: that's the last of him I found
asciilifeform: the original may well be dead
fromloper: this document refers to Dave Moon's files several times; I've tried to find any public presence of Moon on the net, maybe a mail address - found nothing
asciilifeform: somebody , maybe same old man, has a bookcase full of typewritten design apocrypha, memoes, etc. from ivory group. he ain't sharing either.
asciilifeform: think, somebody, somewhere, has the source code to ns. and the ns netlist , with comments, to the ivory.
asciilifeform: the unfortunate bit is that reti et al seem intent to take their seekritz to their graves, because they are 'law-abiding' and are still honouring their nda to the dead hand of the dead man
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 20:24 fromloper: asciilifeform: I have noticed that some of the former Symbolics employees are fairly active on Twitter, like https://twitter.com/swmckay (one of the developers of VLM) and https://twitter.com/KalmanReti , do you think it is possible to pry any information out of them?
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771995 << in these pages however all i see is claptrap re 'racism of trump', 0 about lispm
asciilifeform: fromloper: looking at the linked doc, it is indeed very useful, now we have maybe 80% of the necessary info, instead of ~50%.
fromloper: asciilifeform: I have noticed that some of the former Symbolics employees are fairly active on Twitter, like https://twitter.com/swmckay (one of the developers of VLM) and https://twitter.com/KalmanReti , do you think it is possible to pry any information out of them?
fromloper: the last one is rev 5
fromloper: though it's still an early version of the architecture, revision 0 if I understand correctly
fromloper: at the very least, the description of the instruction set is much more complete, all the opcodes are listed and no blanks at all
apeloyee: a hash of the entire tree doesn't take much
asciilifeform: ( and yes mircea_popescu's answer was 'shuddup and suck it' . which is very easily said when you ain't the one sucking it )
asciilifeform: apeloyee: look at the trb tree, and picture what the mass of the patches would have been, if this requirement had been in effect when i made it.
apeloyee: I proposed being able to name arbitrary required antecedents << also probably needs a mechanism to declare "there are no other files in the tree"
asciilifeform: ( or what it expects to find on the bus, or almost anything else )
asciilifeform: or the necessary timings.
asciilifeform: fromloper: currently however i do not even know where the power supply pins are, much less bus addressing, i/o, clock, etc
apeloyee: "may be a 50kg sword" << doesn't seem to be. can be retrofitted into an existing design. as i said above "there needs to be a tree hash in the _leaf_ patch. and it MUST match the resulting tree"
asciilifeform: apeloyee: trinqueian / mircea_popescuine vtron is arguably The Right Thing. my observation is that it may be a 50kg sword.
apeloyee: when you sign a tarball, the signature is not transferrable to anything else
asciilifeform: fromloper: i shopped around in commercial labs; the best bid was in the neighbourhood of 25,000 usd.
asciilifeform: apeloyee: there is not a mechanical solution to preventing someone from 'putting in format c:' proverbially
fromloper: did you succeed in scanning the chip at Zeptobars?
asciilifeform: fromloper: it is not a complete arch description, you cannot write a working emulator with it ( or even make the existing snap4 not-crash )
apeloyee: point is, the situation when you can replace one of the patches with figurative "format c:" and 'v' will be none the wiser as long as the file is not touched by later patches is insane
fromloper: there were older versions of three chapters from this documents on Bitsavers, but not the whole thing
trinque: then we are closer than it appeared in the long thread. I proposed being able to name arbitrary required antecedents in a vpatch's header, and this appears equivalent in effect to copying the file in whole.
trinque: asciilifeform: to see if I can restate your opinion back to you, if I edit (as single author) both readme.txt and doesallthework.adb in separate vpatches, your view is I combine those into a single vpatch, if I want to build atop both in a new vpatch?
asciilifeform: iirc mircea_popescu's argument was that it is wrong to say that they could ~ever~ be properly independent. and that if they could be shown to be independent, they ought to be separate v-trees.
asciilifeform: and in both cases, the ability to explicitly mark subsystems as independent ( e.g. a readme.txt being independent from doesallthework.adb ) is lost.
asciilifeform: trinque is right tho, they are equivalent
trinque: pretty obvious I'm saying signed hash, i.e. hash is in the signed vpatch
trinque: and in the case of signed antecedent state, don't have to press first to know if you could
trinque: they're equivalent neh? signed antecedent state or signed resulting state + fact that the patch is signed
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 19:31 apeloyee: a vpatch's purpose is twofold. 1) to provide a way to construct some files based on some antedecent files, whose hashes are given. 2) to take some responsibility about the entire tree. but the signature on a vpatch doesn't fix the state of the tree; it is defined implicitly by antedecent patches, which are liable to change at any time ("regrinding") and thereby change some files not...
apeloyee: that's a spurious objection. one need not to sign an antedecent state, one needs to sign a RESULTING state. to expand on http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771900 , you're free to pick individual files from wherever, possibly several different trees, but there needs to be a tree hash in the _leaf_ patch. and it MUST match the resulting tree (under the principle that patch author takes the...
BingoBoingo: The closest thing so far was they time an Israeli embassy worker was busted with a bomb or fake bomb near the WTC
asciilifeform: ( it borders, e.g., columbia. nothing exploded there ?0 )
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: and on most days they do not ?
BingoBoingo: And in other news, a police car exploded near the Brazilian border https://www.elobservador.com.uy/bomberos-explosion-auto-policial-fue-intencional-n1160744
asciilifeform: so it is not correct to say 'you made the man do what the machine could do.' rather, lightened the work for operator for one kind of operation, and made heavier -- other kind.
asciilifeform: it severely constrains the kind of things you can do without manual surgery
asciilifeform: as i described in the linked thread, forcing the entire program under the antecedent hasher is not free
asciilifeform: hey it's the only kind i have nao!11
apeloyee: do you advocate the brick "lisp machine", too?
asciilifeform: apeloyee: trinque and mircea_popescu would like to put more of it on the machine. i haven't with what to dissuade them, it is a philosophical q, not even technical.