mircea_popescu: it's a very third worldy thing, to want to be the sad horse turning around the peg. so much so they actually sell this insanity here, as toys.
asciilifeform: but folx working with contradictory priors are doomed to oscillate. at least if they're serious.
asciilifeform: it is a thing that they end up . but nobody sets out to.
asciilifeform: i have yet to meet the man who ~wanted~ to be oscillator tho.
mircea_popescu: but yes, once they invested in the aproiori fixed point, they can only walk around the room.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-19 02:22 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, he's evidently not useful. but he's not a logic gate, either. he's certainly not human. the fundamental identification/classification of "i will deliver result X through randomly chosen path each time" is... rng. at least to my mind.
asciilifeform: briefly to return to http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-19#1772934 , what motl and most other similar are, is precisely this : the unwanted oscillator. ever see a street lamp that flickered, on, off, on , off
mircea_popescu: whereas most serious math people of my generation are from topology and the rest of the doomed attempts to resurect the beauty of geometry.
mircea_popescu: can prolly tell by the very functional-analytic and numeric methods bent ; and by the set-theoretic underlying representations.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1772202 << i would not go as far, theoretical physics.
mircea_popescu: possibly also i'm like... hey, i recall this idiocy from 2012, seriously rando just discovered bitcoin today, is retracing 2012 with all the ingenuity of virgin at the altar ? how fucking endearing, /sarcasm
asciilifeform: whereas when i say 'this box is oscillator' it has a rigorous meaning. it means that i can draw the spectrum, and it is peaky.
mircea_popescu: if you say something to mp, you also can't immediately say what he'll respond, but this is actually interesting, as opposed to the clock jitter, mechanical jumps of chair etc.
asciilifeform: motl is a loaded die tho. q is, loaded how. and does it have clinical implications for others.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform which was the source of my original, "how do you distinguish this item of furniture from your chair"
asciilifeform: in the sense where my chair is rng.
asciilifeform: i meant in the sense where e.g. the clock crystal on the fg, is not itself an rng. even tho it has jitter.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, he's evidently not useful. but he's not a logic gate, either. he's certainly not human. the fundamental identification/classification of "i will deliver result X through randomly chosen path each time" is... rng. at least to my mind.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-19 02:12 mircea_popescu: this is why on the long term they always either "delete" their blogs to start over, or else become insanely trite (and then "give up").
mircea_popescu: what is it, i don't get it. yes, but that's evidently not the interesting part nor can it. hence the original, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-19#1772909
asciilifeform: it ain't an rng if i can compress the output .
mircea_popescu: so this definitionally makes him a meat rng then ?
asciilifeform: it's an arse-mouth hose. 'west' is where 'capitalism', 'capitalism' is what they do in 'west'.
asciilifeform: motl is not a meat rng tho. d00d suffers from a clearly identifiable fixation, 'the west' (tm)(r) where there is a 'capitalism' (tm)(r)
mircea_popescu: same problem manifests with the pantsuit mendacious little shits as with any larger system built on the same basis.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-31 16:27 mircea_popescu: the important point here is that there can be NO retrospective read of the history of ideas in any actual discipline that is both a) longer than epsilon and b) fails to discover the PRINCIPAL bar to discovery is personal dishonesty.
mircea_popescu: recall at some point was some pompous asshole locklin, "scientist" ? there's no end conceivable of supply. once one swallows the "always has choice" usg pill, that one becomes this. it's inescapable.
mircea_popescu: or of saying anything useful or meaningful, either. orlov similar example, but at least he cycles the topics. one day -- expert on boats, next day -- expert on firearms, on it goes.
mircea_popescu: yarvin opted for the latter ; this one may be too thick to notice yet, or whatever, i've not looked.
mircea_popescu: this is why on the long term they always either "delete" their blogs to start over, or else become insanely trite (and then "give up").
a111: Logged on 2016-08-17 17:02 mircea_popescu: Framedragger the reason there's a lot of credence in phf's perhaps harsh criticism is http://trilema.com/2014/how-to-make-money-on-the-internet-while-pretending-you-know-what-youre-talking-about-and-accumulating-a-legion-of-mindless-followers-for-fun-and-profit/
mircea_popescu: he's saying the things that could be said, some fraction thereof, as a function of the possibility of saying and no more. other exactly identical items are saying other fractions, and will continue to do so. to credit this is that long discussed error, http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-17#1523269
mircea_popescu: but you're not frankly sitting there and asking for explanation of perceived patterns in fg output.
asciilifeform: 'think' is not the word.
mircea_popescu: i have no idea why rational behaviour would be expected, or rational explanation for misbehaviour would be demanded of items that clearly lack either agency or reflective capacity.
mircea_popescu: it was there.
mircea_popescu: but yes, broadly speaking, who has any interest in them and their flow of made for tv snacks.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the cheques consisting of remarkably very little. most of these hopefuls live in the most abject poverty, made palatable to them by their idiocy and the abject poverty surrounding every aspect of their life.
mircea_popescu: i suspect the "inteligentsia" as it dreams itself has meanwhile redefined intellectual discourse to equate the above wank.
mircea_popescu: it's a cheap if useless mental trick, very substantially the same as http://trilema.com/2014/agency-and-other-notes/#selection-31.0-37.0 ; a certain sort of safe (ie, improductive) activity as a cover for impotence.
mircea_popescu: like the unhappy girls of usgistan, these misfortunate trannies imagine they "have the options" etc.
mircea_popescu: anyway. dork imagines he has some sort of cachet, exactly like orlov, exactly like all the branding idiots. what keeps eg http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=from%3Aweev from productive obedience is exactly the same fundamental problem.
asciilifeform: i suspect that most of these folx are.. physiologically incapable of touching a subj that hasn't been tonywashed.
mircea_popescu: inb4 "tony told me today something about sex with girls under 12" in another decade or so.
mircea_popescu: fucking tony. to quote from recent trilema, "And obviously it will then become, suddenly and unexplainably, a "native" topic of conversation ailleurs, specifically in such ESL ailleurs as may "coincidentally" but necessarily "forget" to mention where they even discovered this may be a topic of conversation in the first place. Oy vey.."
mircea_popescu: "Tony told me I was a statist because I am a critic of the Bitcoin. Tony isn't the only man who has raised this accusation."
asciilifeform: linked strictly for the flavour of crackpottery afaik not seen elsewhere, 'imaginary 1950s Greatest Generation anticommie usa' vs 'bolshevik bitcoin'
mircea_popescu: but all the pretense that "today matters -- after all i was born", as if this isn't well settled 2014 fare, and http://trilema.com/2014/an-era-ends-today-a-new-era-starts-today/ never occured, and so on... he's really REALLY late to the max keiser show.
mircea_popescu very much will refuse to consider random fucktards who spent 2012 going "oh, who pays for mpex seats" in the hope that "hey, i'll weasel my way back in through peripheral commentary anyway"
mircea_popescu: they all parasitize some topic or other. obama is a constitutional law scholar or how did it go.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform http://trilema.com/2014/ron-maimon-lubos-motl-and-other-internet-things-i-hear-of-today-for-the-very-first-time/ ?
asciilifeform: from his commentreplies, also gold, e.g. '...People who despise Western national fiat currencies are dirty fucked-up commies of the same kind that has plundered my country. I just won't ever support their goal, they're scum for me. Do you get it? Relatively to these important things, whether the replacement is called Ripple or Rouble is just a technicality. It's the same shit except that rouble actually works as a viable currency for
asciilifeform: his apparent conflict between the regular banks and meaningless cryptocurrency exchanges; in the conflict between the system with regular banks that has worked for centuries and an ideologically driven replacement that isn't used in the real legal economy because it obviously cannot work well...' etc
asciilifeform: 'The ISPs and commercial banks are parts of the capitalist economy and a systemic attack against them is obviously a systemic attack against capitalism – real-world capitalism – as such. Maybe it's because my position in the formative years – I considered myself a builder of the new capitalist economy including the old-fashioned brick-and-mortar commercial banks – but I just wouldn't hesitate for a second whom I root for in t
asciilifeform: in other folx who apparently had gone fullbore usgtard since i last looked : lubos motl. e.g. https://motls.blogspot.com/2018/01/korean-backlash-to-planned-bitcoin.html .
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1772185 << teh process of effervescent vitriol that passes for review here + the natural intimidatiacy result in very finely polished items, to my delight.
mircea_popescu: dude... nobody gives a shit now, ever will, or ever fucking has given a shit about your retarded usg idiocy. wake up and smell the coffee, jesus fucking christ, it's like watching imbecile african mamies with dirty bare feet and stupid headgarbs drone importantly about what-they-remember the preacher said in church.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 21:41 asciilifeform: 'Cyber space is an increasingly risky discourse and therefore will inevitably be securitised.' << exactly what i said: usg stuffed shirt.
mircea_popescu: there's a natural tendency to do the right thing that needs lengthy and elaborate stamping out before you get the full blown jwz.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform doesn't get real time reportz on his desk when they croak..
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: possibly moar under the table
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1772096 << that contract is worth ~diddly squat. iirc the (utterly unimpressive) fiatola figures were quoted in log.
mircea_popescu: o, building they do. maintenance, not so much.
asciilifeform: muchly depends where. literally few blox from asciilifeform , bridge is being recemented. and not far from there, a brand new one built.
mircea_popescu: amusingly, the romans also regularly inspected, for 90% of their history, both bridges and aqueducts (not so different in ther practice, items). stopped late 300s.
asciilifeform: but typical 'coast' amerid00d gives exactly 0 fucks what the roads, or bread, or anything , are like in oklahomistan.
asciilifeform: always ~was~ dodgy at the edges
mircea_popescu: already crumbling at the edges.
asciilifeform: the 1 item that still ~worx to spec in usa : roads. sorta like bread in ye olde su. it is a symbol of imperial 'mandate of heaven'
mircea_popescu: granted, the idiots here are something else -- they did everything up to but excluding the asphalt cover. an exercise in "how to spend 95% of the cost to get 3% of the benefit"
mircea_popescu: i want 200km pitstops for the car like i want fat old women in my livingroom.
mircea_popescu: ill get tubes in whatever the fuck i fucking want them. but yes, they try not to sell them anymore.
shinohai: Heh, curious you mention that about tires, never thought of it until now mircea_popescu, but bicycle wheels are the only place you can still get an inner tube afaik.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 20:47 asciilifeform: to be fair the company was not really a honest commercial co, moar like one of those unofficial usg research institutes, they proliferated under reagan and died with him
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1772041 << quite this. symbolics had the distinction of marketing inept to the amplitude of apple's, except negative.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 20:43 fromloper: so there is at least one possible address, gotta try it
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1772007 <<< they went to "social media" aka sv wankpost rather than eg, came here, for a reason, after all.
mircea_popescu: and what people who aren't imperial majesties themselves will do i have nfi.
mircea_popescu: anyway, i ordered the creation of special proper tyres for myself only. and it shall be done.
asciilifeform: 'Full rubber tyres, no inflation at all. Yes, exactly like in the toy items we had as children. Progress, you see,' << this is coming. possibly already deployed on 'upscale' americars.
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2018/and-another-day-dawns-or-multipicture-megapost/ << Trilema - And another day dawns, or Multipicture Megapost
asciilifeform: practical demonstration beats hypotheticals.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 20:14 asciilifeform: apeloyee: look at the trb tree, and picture what the mass of the patches would have been, if this requirement had been in effect when i made it.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771985 << i don't understand where the extra mass comes from iyo. in the trinque solution, one extra file'd have been gaining a total of count-patches lines. ook ?
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 20:13 apeloyee: I proposed being able to name arbitrary required antecedents << also probably needs a mechanism to declare "there are no other files in the tree"
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771984 << the mechanism are "only the files named may exist".
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 20:11 asciilifeform: ( or what it expects to find on the bus, or almost anything else )
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771980 << fine example of the context problem. "yes, i have the chip" "so what can you do ?" "nothing."
asciilifeform: like the proper-penguin.
mircea_popescu: mostly, people who got it hammered into childhood that they suck for hating the peas, because their grandaunt edsel died in whichever camp
asciilifeform: hm so b&d-istic hypothesis ?
mircea_popescu: there's a certain "cramped spaces and highschool-ariline boarding security" nazism reinstatement that is appealing to a certain sort of person.
asciilifeform: not even getting out of the plane
asciilifeform: whereas the airliner equiv to the cruise would be to buy a 1stclass ticket to go nowhere in particular, in a circle
asciilifeform: well in 1915 it was 'cross with minimal pain', sorta like the $5k plus 1stclass chair on modern air liner
mircea_popescu: item is 1950s revival of pre 1915 extant item with utility (cross the atlantic pleasantly)
asciilifeform: what's the draw ?
mircea_popescu: "if the nazis come -- can sail away" "really bitch ? never heard of uboats ?" "THOSE WOULD BE ILLEGAL"
asciilifeform: oh hey in the new mircea_popescu article : the item re 'cruise ship'. asciilifeform confesses, he never understood what is the appeal
asciilifeform: ( incidentally there is -- imho wholly without merit -- a school of physical-crackpotteristic thought that holds that he botched the job. )
asciilifeform: i respect folx who do honest work, even on particle zoos. just as i respect that cataloguers of rare birds in the jungle ; it is not a wholly pointless thing. but it is not comparable to heaviside, who walked into a room with 22 equations and came out with 4.
mircea_popescu: desy is perhaps the golden age of german science, and rather inseparable in any case.
mircea_popescu: (before the large cern one, a smaller all-german item existed, proved most of modern physics, including all sorts of quark properties, laid the groundwork for eventual finding of top quark, etc)
asciilifeform: they shortcut-on-zero when MULing.
asciilifeform: the use of comba , and in fact of ANY multiplier that compiles into having a x86 MUL instruction anywhere in it, is unsafe on intel celeron. and ppc32. and possibly ppc64.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-18 23:29 mircea_popescu: "oh, von neumann invented the 486". really tyvm.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-18#1772646 << invented mergesort, to do the man justice.
mircea_popescu: we are currently handwaving this, but it's there alright.
asciilifeform: consider every other week somebody shows up with 'i have gnat 2014 and...'
asciilifeform: program is not meaningfully separable from ~all~ of the necessary parts to make it go.
asciilifeform: upstack re the impossibility of translating the safety of an ada program's nearby-modifications-phasespace to c -- i suspect that mircea_popescu's thesis re 'files are not separate units' not only is troo, but does not go far enuff :
asciilifeform: because they not only do it, but exaggeratedly, cartoon-coloured, do it.
mircea_popescu: but of the crooked timber...
asciilifeform: sorta the situation for which we even have word 'compilation'
asciilifeform: the output cannot be for any practical purpose worked with human hands.
asciilifeform: the result, however, is not in any sense 'translation', it is more of a compilation.
asciilifeform: there's at least 1 lisptron that actually worked this way
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: because it was reimplementation, rather than translation.
mircea_popescu: well, the attempt to translate v proved itself extremely productive neh.
asciilifeform: no, the 'translate code in attempt to understand' item
mircea_popescu: "code your own", why is that even there.
mircea_popescu: i can't be the only one who translates code as a routine attempt at understanding wtf.
mircea_popescu: yes, but the code we review is not strictly speaking text.
mircea_popescu: paternity is purely conventional in this strong sense. among us, we may think r,s & a invented rsa. among some gray beards somewhere else, they may well know better.
asciilifeform: the 'includes verbatim' proposition is mechanically answerable.
asciilifeform: which i am satisfied performs the requisite diff and comes up with the expected answer.
asciilifeform: different if the difference can be written as a program.
mircea_popescu: man saying "this is of x" is the only marginal history available here.
mircea_popescu: suppose yet another one takes your thing, fixes a bug, and says "this genesis also includes exactly alf's thing verbatim, except for this subtle bug i fixed". thereby... these are different, yes ?
mircea_popescu: and, back to the trunk, we've not even discussed the horror of translation. suppose you write a thing, in ada. suppose another, who works on a lisp tree, takes your thing and identically translates it to lisp (here defined, that on any correct machine his code will in all cases behave indentically to yours). what's your v to do here ?
mircea_popescu: on the exact contrary, everyone wants nothing else.
mircea_popescu: what literate code is all about, nothing keeps you from putting a philosophy.preamble file in there.
mircea_popescu: say it in the fucking comments of ffa, not here, at that.
asciilifeform: and i will say, ftr, that invocation of ANY ffa components on ANY overlapping segments, is an abuse. and there is not in fact any way to guarantee correctness , if such a thing is permissible.
mircea_popescu: there is no implicit attribution of text ~specifically because~ there is no ghost of moses caught in the letters anymore than there's soul intertwined in the brain.
asciilifeform: hence why i sign the whole, and not 'routine'
asciilifeform: as i said to apeloyee, in NO case can it be guaranteed that the parts cannot be cut up and re-sewn into a subtly broken shape.
mircea_popescu: the ~type~ of problem that cropped up with the xor assignment (whereby -- careful at context X might shoot self in foot) is ~exactly~ and with no remainder the type of problem we are fighting, whereby "oh, this ssl totally works for rsa, except... when it does not"
mircea_popescu: if your desire can't be made to work in elementary cases, how would it work at all, is the bojum here. what, xor assignment gets a free pass, but "any program longer than 6 lines magically becomes attributable" ?>
mircea_popescu: with what original shall the machine compare ?
mircea_popescu: note though that there WERE some disputes re its utility/feasibility! that cropped up in discussion! remember ?
asciilifeform: or in any other. whole thing written from vacuum.
mircea_popescu: so then you propose the xor variable flip was invented by whom ? what tree do i import when i do it ?
mircea_popescu: "oh, von neumann invented the 486". really tyvm.
mircea_popescu: but tell me asciilifeform who invented bubblesort ? who, "the egyptian" multiplication ? who, the lisp memory model ? who invented anything ?
asciilifeform: neither 'is' the other. just as drawing of kalash is not a kalash, you cannot fire it. and conversely, physical, firable kalash is not the drawing, the parts are wherever they are in the tolerance range, to make more from the 1 example you will have to redraw the drawing and determine the tolerances.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform because in some parts they're fictitious (read : unknowable) histories.
mircea_popescu: this turns into an interesting inverse case of "the code is not the spec", whereby... the spec is not the code.
mircea_popescu: it would appear to me the "copy what you want into your tree" provides exactly that.
asciilifeform: 'work' in this item means to provide the answer if it is available. and silence if it is not.
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, as a matter of course, your protocol must work in all cases it purports to cover or it isn't.
mircea_popescu: but the sheer insanity to attempt a protocol built on a knowledge that it dun work in the general case, but in some particulars. what is this, building unix ?!
asciilifeform: no but i like the image of literal wall-o-cunt, lol
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this planet ; the planet where men have tried for 50 centuries to tell the woman "make me a son, and one that's not idiotic, and not too expensive" and she brought whatever shrubbery she brought.
mircea_popescu: children are born out of an unamed, indistinct wall of cunt. the only point of interest is which father signed off on it.
asciilifeform: in the general case, cannot
asciilifeform: incl the change from nonexistence.
mircea_popescu: the goddess made all genesises.
mircea_popescu: so then what specifically are you trying to translate into protocol here ?
asciilifeform: obviously can't distinguish. not unless all 3 are in the room, hanging upside down and plugged into the mains. and perhaps not even then.
mircea_popescu: what is your standard of proof anyway ? suppose x claims that koch works for weimer ; and y claims weimer works for koch. how do you distinguish these claims ?
asciilifeform: if you even have them within smelling distance, your system is broken.
asciilifeform: the idea is to expunge anyone who so much as shows a hint of 'i merely work here', as an unreliable element.
mircea_popescu: or care. or in any other bakchand way re-import the empire of stupid into existence.
asciilifeform: without attribution , it is impossible to determine who even ~is~ the mole.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there is no possibility of such learning.
mircea_popescu: how about this "mechanical borrowing" system you proposes ACTUALLY weakens responsibility, because the 15, instead of taking seriously their true deed, which IS in fact authorship-indistinguishable, rather aim to hide behind a claim of "hey, we merely work here, signing signatures" a sort of "well i really wanted to X and the only part Y available was Koch's so don't blame me"
asciilifeform: the perp is loud, proud.
mircea_popescu: leaving aside the problem of time in this system, which promises to be gnarly (time where ?), would it TRULY make you feel better about systemd if the blond schmuck whose name i forget claimed alien possession ?
asciilifeform: the time parameter is real.
asciilifeform: mr.x signed 'i wrote ....' , 15 checkists signed 'i witness thereby that mr.x last night had wrote...'
mircea_popescu: this is like saying "moses fingered one". the idea is, something within your hand, not some sort of religious fiction.
asciilifeform: 1 originated. the rest not.
mircea_popescu: how do you propose to distinguish one among the 16 ?
mircea_popescu: yes but the problem with this one is that it is fundamentally incompatible with reality.
asciilifeform: all hypothetical worlds are hallucinated, lol
asciilifeform: i'd rather have 1 usg head and 15 living friends.
mircea_popescu: and whenever someone signs something not-good, ima have their head.
asciilifeform: and this is The Wrong Thing.
asciilifeform: well in cutandpasteism world, there is not 1 mole and 15 chekists. there are 16 signers, is all.
mircea_popescu: the 2 who failed to find, whom you rated, you unrate.
mircea_popescu: why do you imagine you'd even see all of these ?
asciilifeform: the 1 usg mole who inserts boobytrap, and the 15 chekists who failed to find him, in my book do NOT have equal responsibility.
mircea_popescu: if this were true nuclear reactors would be fulla rats. they... aren't. gluon muddle, and yet...
mircea_popescu: i will not care one wit whether author of package i use copied or wrote offending bit. signed it -- that's that.
asciilifeform: this is the part i dunget.
mircea_popescu: as a subpoint, it is true copy/pasteism makes muddled "authorship" socially acceptable, and this is a great thing, and the perfect bullet to kill usg."intellectual property" with ; but it does NOT make responsibility any weaker, and thereby feeds no rats.
asciilifeform: interested in the most compact accessible diff representation.
mircea_popescu: the only true knowledge of the machine's view is the binary. but you are not interested in that, you are interested in intension and a particular sort of meaning,
asciilifeform: even when they differ by 1bit.
mircea_popescu: no text is the "Sum" of its parts in any rigurously definition of sum.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 19:35 asciilifeform: apeloyee: see the quite 'flammable' log from that thread. i put the burden of correct operation ~100% on the human operator.
asciilifeform: hence design decisions like http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771908 . the expectation is that the dubious people who 'live on the edges', are GONE.
asciilifeform: the desire to abolish cutandpasteism.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-18 20:07 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform quite evident ; but yes, i believe wrong problem to solve. "oh lord, how could bits of code have an identity ?" "why ?" "so they could be my girflriends" "Come on!"
asciilifeform: i'd like to revisit upstack , http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-18#1772421 << this is somewhat of a misconception. asciilifeform did not salivate over a 'programmer's paradise' when wrote v. on the contrary. v , as he pictured it, is a weapon of rodenticidal war. specifically to ferret out and neutralize not only the compromised people, but the politically unreliable and the dubious of whatever type. hence the focus on attribution, and
asciilifeform: at the same time i dun think that i actually disagree with mircea_popescu re the granularity. we don't have the tech to make granularity 'at procedure level' work.
asciilifeform: the only thing it's got, is the deltas. and i can't see why they shouldn't 'go back to moses' if this is physically possible.
asciilifeform: i'ma approach from different angle : mircea_popescu , what do you think is the advantage of v over mere pile of signed tars ?
mircea_popescu: but this happens all the fucking time right here, too! take the... well i can't fucking find it now, but there's a line in the log where phf goes "hey, your trying to do the mp rant comes out short, you;'re not mp". why the fuck not! had all the bits!!1
asciilifeform: the 'bitcoin by lone idiot' model cannot be ruled out , but nothing requires us to eat it by default.
asciilifeform: ( the 1 item d00d actually came up with, phonograph, was made by hired hands. the man could not machine to save his life )
asciilifeform: afaik the 'idiot comes up with worthwhile item by accident' is a wholly imaginary problem. never seems to actually happen.
asciilifeform: and nomoar 'subtle'-anythings at the edges.
mircea_popescu: there is no such thing. because, http://trilema.com/2014/pro-idiotas-which-obviously-means-people-who-have-ideas-ie-idiots/
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: nope. you find the subtle-manipulators and string'em up.
asciilifeform: if 2 strings are bitwise-identical -- they are the same. if mircea_popescu in his own house insists that trained gurlz with magnifying glasses compare them, before he will consider them to be same, that is his biznis
mircea_popescu: then you bite the subtle bugs resulting from subtle manipulations of state at the outskirts, which is what nsa rats live off of.
mircea_popescu: yes -- it does work, in the way such works work.
mircea_popescu: in the same sense your copy of patent medicine still works.
asciilifeform: can proclaim 'there is not' all you like. my copy of diff still works.
mircea_popescu: the only one who can decide that two texts are the same text is one versed in the text. that's why they even needed fucking monks in the first place.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-18 22:09 diana_coman: see, there is also tea which is pointedly not meat!!
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-18#1772514 >> oblig >> http://pbfcomics.com/comics/the-golden-ticket
asciilifeform: and therefore ought to be resolvable mechanically as part of ordinary v operation.
asciilifeform: re earlier item -- if i want to demonstrate that 'alf's exceptional exsudator' consists of diana_coman's magic prime number maker, all 100,000 ln of it verbatim, plus 5 ln of asciilifeform's , this is now a proposition that has to be proven manually. whereas theoretically it is a mechanically resolvable q.
mircea_popescu: that's when he meditates over the leaves.
diana_coman: see, there is also tea which is pointedly not meat!!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: there is no way to weasel out of the fact that the info is available, but simply ignored by ineptly made vtron.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there is no such birth. all words are is empty coin, long bereft of any original gold, all that's left is the congeal spit of successive generations. thesis is in some trilema somwwhere
asciilifeform: the only organ made of meat!11
mircea_popescu: diana_coman obviously ; but the trick is that "meat" also means dick.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-18 20:58 mircea_popescu: consider concretely the case of eucrypt's keccak. diana_coman is writing it as a direct derivation off genesis, meaning on extant v impls if one wanted to import it they could import JUST it, without the rest of eucrypt (it'll be pulled in later through the usual procedure in eucrypt itself). superficially this may seem like it encourages phf to go "o i know, i'll just link keccak patch into my codebase rather than regring (i
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-18#1772483 << it's still annoying that , if i import it, and then years later query 'origin' of something, it only can trace back to my own genesis. and not to birth.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-10 16:41 hanbot: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-10#1768160 << haha well this answers http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-09#1767425 then. 0 useful.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there can't be such a wonderous protocol. in no small part because the PRINCIPAL FUNCTION of the human hand is http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-10#1768461