mircea_popescu: it's kinda funny to delve into the other side on occasion. check out the "i'm an idiot" style quotes, be unsurprised they use "npm" to chown root
mircea_popescu: imagine, dacia good, bmw and audi bad. a whole generation of dead romanians would cream SO HARD if they could see this.
mircea_popescu: but anyway, in between "here's what the french atlantic said about german cars, bmw is worst ever" and retweets of "Having kids to give life meaning creates more lives that need meaning. Basically its a Ponzi scheme." he did entertain me for a few minutes, so not all is lost.
mircea_popescu: basically cuck rage, but of a platonic rather than sexual nature.
mircea_popescu: dude thinks pantsuit is right ; hates the fact that i exist, and the way i tend to rub pantsuit nose in the necessary pantsuit failure / gloat at the success of my rape & "sociopathy" campaign REALLY gets his goat.
mircea_popescu: incredibly enough, original item still there even! https://twitter.com/ludditus/status/51677863652491264
mircea_popescu: tl;dr : "superior" & "civilized" romanian (ie, exactly http://trilema.com/2017/in-case-you-were-wondering-where-all-the-worthless-nuland-drones-ended-up/ ) "does not like trilema" because "how dares the ney work times advertise it!! imagine, i was reading there like a good nuland drone, and what do they show me ? trilema!!! THE EVIL BADGUY FROM MY COUTRY!!! THE WHOLE PANTSUIT SYSTEM IS BREAKING DOWN!!!111"
mircea_popescu: in other items of kibo-interest, salted roasted pistachios with milk make for a splendid breakfast. you shell a few, you take a swig ; you take a swig, you shell a few.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and the idea is to keep a spare there in any case, even if we don't use it for anything, "to make up for lost time", live a little as it were ?
mircea_popescu: also, do you want to lamp the main phuctor item rather than use the vps + server minigame system ? i imagine it'd be easier to do python bindingd and w/e that way ?
mircea_popescu: we have a main which is going to be the nsa / phuctor main machine and 3 spares was it ? or 2 ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i would not be opposed to selling off 1 of the 2 spares ( either for pizarro-credits, as mircea_popescu earlier sold FGs, or for coin, or come combination of the 2 )
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes you mean, of the servers asciilifeform is flying in ?
mircea_popescu: "but mp, I ~know~ the source" "no you fucking don't. what's discussed here is knowledge in the strong sense ; your lack of ability to know anything due to http://trilema.com/2014/the-problem-of-ideal-social-systems-reprint/ and http://trilema.com/2011/semiologia-semantica-si-viata/ type issues does not permit you to now claim knowledge out of the void.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: once upon a time there was an s.nsa expense line for ~"servers for nascent isp", would you sell one or both of those to pizarro?
asciilifeform: or, how it is taught to young children, 'don't eat things picked up off the ground?' 'but what if they're delish' 'but consider'
BingoBoingo: In other news, I think an Incan gave me a cold
mircea_popescu: "oh, but how does one know something's random noise afore the fact ? isn't that begging the question ?" you can't establish something is random ~after the fact~, nitwit, randomness is not a property of the string ~but of the method that produced it~. therefore, it's random noise because it comes out of an unknown source, duh!
mircea_popescu: "having experienced several variants, i find it now saves time just to adopt the irrational position from the start." <<->> http://trilema.com/2014/how-to-deal-with-pseudoscience/ ; it is better to ignore random noise before examining it for coherence than after.
mircea_popescu: in other items perhaps of interest to the specialist, apparently i had forgotten the link for http://trilema.com/2018/lets-read-together-uncle-al-schwartz-hexadecimal-dependency/#footnote_9_78266 ; now added.
asciilifeform: meanwhile, in other veryolds, https://www.kix.in/2008/06/19/an-alternative-to-shared-libraries
mircea_popescu: certainly a fine residual incentive for lord to maintain logotron -- get the ability to reference castle logs in here.
lobbes: btw I'm loving this multi-chan log-quote ability ben_vulpes. I bet this becomes a soft requirement for logotron relevancy as the peripheral 'castles' continue to be added/populated
lobbes: ^^ q1 auction bot billz (slow quarter!). Mainly for accounting purposes; no rush on collecting due to eulora servers being down and the fact that the sums are a mere 96 satoshi each
a111: Logged on 2018-04-01 23:56 mircea_popescu: holy shit kibo's signature includes a reference to http://trilema.com/2011/ochiul-lui-argorn-de-jim-theis/
lobbes: Or did you mean you want me to mirror everything in, say, http://www.kibo.com/rawdata/ like I did with Uncle Al writings? Either way, I'll go ahead and mirror the stuff in /rawdata/; shouldn't take long at all
a111: Logged on 2018-04-01 19:24 mircea_popescu: aanyway. lobbes can the kibo site be added to archival ?
lobbes: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-01#1791914 << If you wanna throw specific urls into the automated archive hopper, then just dump em in chan.
mircea_popescu: "HOWEVER YOU CAN'T SUE ME FOR SAYING ANY OF THIS BECAUSE IF YOU SUE ME YOU'D HAVE TO QUOTE ME IN COURT AND THEN I'D SUE YOU FOR QUOTING THIS COPYRIGHTED (C) MESSAGE!!! MY COUSINS ARE ALL LAWYERS !!!!!" <<< turns out the whole SOPS thing actually originated as a usenet joke.
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/filosoful-luminii-de-neon.png << in other antiquary.
douchebag: mircea_popescu: are you a member of the mile high club
mircea_popescu: holy shit kibo's signature includes a reference to http://trilema.com/2011/ochiul-lui-argorn-de-jim-theis/
mircea_popescu: in other lulz, catholic easter is on 1st of april this year ?
mircea_popescu: i guess i was wise enough to do the 625 correcty, so all bases are covered.
a111: Logged on 2018-03-26 14:08 mircea_popescu: https://steemit.com/introducemyself/@anonymint/introspection-interlude << in other bizarre. maybe someone point out to the dude that there's a 2 and a 5 in any 10, and since the 5 is in short supply n! will have one zero for each 5, two for each 25 and 3 for each 625, meaning 1000! will have 200 + 80 + 1.
ave1: mircea_popescu, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-03-26#1789665, how do you get to 80 for for the 25 case?
mircea_popescu: aanyway. lobbes can the kibo site be added to archival ?
mircea_popescu: https://www.wired.com/1993/04/kibo-is-god/ << back when wired was impossible colors and fell over itself to suck our cock, rather than pompously pretend to tell anyone what's what.
mircea_popescu: it's somewhat of a companion to the "what's changed" piece
phf: i'm also disappointed that battlestar galactica date can not be reversed into system date to figure out when the messages were posted.
mircea_popescu: ^ "Web browsers are fragile assemblies of bugs, held together with Hello Kitty stickers."
BingoBoingo: Contemplate GTFO? Nah they have a zombie apocalypse to wait for.
mircea_popescu: not more than the "rebelious" preteens that still go home to eat.
BingoBoingo: It's no small irony that the Make Alt-Alt Again folks... Or USian rebels in general will come so close to getting things right... Then they drink the Bostonolade that keeps them home.
mircea_popescu: and they believe, because that's what it means to be a retard : you trust your parents. even the ones that whore you out since you were 3yo.
mircea_popescu: boston told them it's impossible to travel, no such thing as learning languages or handling non-pantsuit fiatola currency is possible for human hands and minds.
a111: Logged on 2018-03-26 16:06 mircea_popescu: anyway. boston managed to make "the defining question" be "what does america want to see ?" and then managed to convince the midwest that what california people think is hip is bostonolade ; then took those numbers and showed california that "what america wants to see!!" is bostonolade.
BingoBoingo: I am rather surprised this place isn't more popular with the alt-alt white Pepe set. No good reason Dixie can't move further South.
BingoBoingo: Last Sunday I had the priviledge of seeing one of the little monsters dive into the foot of a male probably relative (can't tell if cuck or father) and got himself good and kicked in the head while tripping the victim.
BingoBoingo: True. Still not sure where all the children come from here, but they sure do love making a show out of torturing their parents.
BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-01#1791878 << On this point the Northern Latinas, Venezolanas y Peruanas (And Chileñas though they aren't too much more Northern) know what they are doing. As long as the response is playful they remain worshipful. Uruguayas and it seems most Argentinas... whatever triggers their Laughs-Estrogen-Fun cycle seems to be broken. Deeply.
BingoBoingo: zineKing: Who is your daddy, what does he do, and how does he unpack the gnu symbol in your head today?
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Aha, they do
deedbot: http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2018/04/01/growing-disgust/ << Bingo Blog - Growing Disgust
mircea_popescu: meanwhile in other nostalgia, kibo still breathes! http://www.kibo.com/kibokill/ << check out the GUI shots.
mircea_popescu: you can't possibly take more than that to get the thing up and running. now get to it.
mircea_popescu: the ONLY reason lamp is even fucking useful, at all, is that the idiots in charge of the shitmachine got a web thing that could be cooked in ~2 hours.
mircea_popescu: nevermind filing fucking updates. get the hounds off the insanity of chasing "user-local mysql", if it's what i imagine it is.
mircea_popescu: and moreover, when you tell me it's gonna be a day a week ago and then send your people on an insane mission through the jungle to build you a mountaintop aircraft submarine, you'd better fucking say something.
mircea_popescu: now look here you nutjobs. mysql run once per user is WORSE a situation than the kernel run once per user. both apache and mysql are made to be one-for-all. this is not something you can negotiate by yourselves on the quiet in a day.
ben_vulpes: cutting through a bunch of vines that the rest of the worlds use of vm's has let grow over useful, low-overhead tech.
ben_vulpes: so i set up per-user fpm pools which work, but i'm at sea on how asciilifeform put together and ran his user-local mysql install.
ben_vulpes: user-local MySQL install is the last roadblock
hanbot: waiting for pizarro people to figure out php-mysql. from what i can tell they've been hacking at it all week.
mircea_popescu: but yes, if memory serves san antonio was the only livable city in the us, and that's in texas.
douchebag: I like the nationalism
douchebag: Texas sounds like one of the nicer states
mircea_popescu: travel's important. especially for the young squirt.
mircea_popescu: they actually had a great pirogi place in gdansk but i don't remember it now. somewhere downtown.
douchebag: Oh yeah, I realize that - I just think it'll be nice to finally see the sea
douchebag: Especially during the summer
douchebag: That's the plan!
mircea_popescu: try all the soups once or twice ; starting with borrscht and move down.
mircea_popescu: i dunno about specifically polish, but sure, try the pirogi, try the blinyii, they should be capable of doing the north-eastern stuff well enough.
mircea_popescu: you never been outside of the us huh ? that may promise to be quite the shock, like kid born in prison getting out.
douchebag: Can't wait to try some of the foods - and my girlfriend is a great cook and loves cooking for me
mircea_popescu: sounds like a sound plan you got, check out the euro hussies, find a spot to settle down somewhat.
a111: Logged on 2017-09-30 20:05 mircea_popescu: the only extra hole in my hide i acquired through ricochet under car, nearly lost a knee.
douchebag: Next week I get shot in the fucking leg
douchebag: Fucked up thing about my situation, a week prior I was at a different gas station and bullets went flying there. Didn't get hit
mircea_popescu: in other "motherfucking hell" : linux got " US/German/French/Finnish keyboards" in v 0.11! along with other boneheaded idiocies like "code/data sharing between unrelated processes". wonder of wonders, there was actually NO philosophical community here, since the get-go. pure incidentals.
douchebag: Some of them even admit to having no skill - yet still feel entitled
douchebag: Most people I know, especially college students seem to think that they're going to be famous - and if they're not famous they keep reaching towards unachievable goals
mircea_popescu: there is no substantial difference between smoking crack and checking your roth ira
mircea_popescu: douchebag or thinking they're "entrepreneurs" headed to sf or "actresses" headed to hollywood or "talented" headed to shitty-platform.com or so on.
douchebag: I don't know a single person who doesn't use drugs here. Whether it be weed or shotting heroin up your arm
mircea_popescu: who could have predicted (tm) that "we'll make an economy out of doing each other's laundry" nonsense will soon devolve of "we're stuck here, crabs in a pot, trying to sling an array of pointless dopes on each other".
mircea_popescu: yes, and good for you if you manage but don't be surprised when most don't. that's the nature of statistics.
mircea_popescu: douchebag do you see the "no economic utility" approach re all those jobs ?
mircea_popescu: imagine if they had to man the pacific fleet today. what the fuck, 1 mn draftees per ship, shoot 10k a day for rank failure.
mircea_popescu: trinque consider this lulzy angle -- in 1940 they could get a few hundred to about 1200 or so young men to go up on a boat. wake up every day, clean the deck, no girls for two years.
trinque: horse shit, where are the great projects of mid last century to entomb the ablebodied men in wet concrete?
douchebag: Well, every job I have ever applied to - I got the job. It doesn't seem to be a lack of jobs, it's a lack of will to work like a normal person
mircea_popescu: douchebag the "no jobs -- nothing useful for normie to do" is a statistical argument, can't be invalidated by example.
mircea_popescu: so yes, obviously dudes will go about enforcing the chaining on the state-supported breeder cows. what the fuck else, "go to new york to be a writer" ?
douchebag: I've had many jobs, in fact every job I have ever applied to - I got the job
mircea_popescu: (which is why all the "SSI" and foodstamps etc bs)
mircea_popescu: used to be that any stiff capable of walking could get a job. there are NO jobs now. nobody with an iq under 150 is or can be useful for anything ; except of course if female for the http://trilema.com/2016/an-immodest-proposal/#selection-53.0-71.1 purpose
douchebag: Slangin n bangin rock on the block, poppin shots at the opps, fuck the cops seems to be the mentality
mircea_popescu: well, net access compressed the space of perceived possibility. 1949 people read about a murder done for 50k and thought it made sense. today's kids think a job that doesn't pay 1mn a year isn't really worth getting out of bed ; let alone good enough to commit murder.
douchebag: Every black just seems to think their only chance for success is to become a famous rapper, and if they're not a famous rapper they choose to sell drugs instead of working a real job
douchebag: It's mainly an issue of the whole mentality where people think they're entitled to success
douchebag: This was a somewhat decent town when I was growing up, there were still the bad sides of town. But now there's homeless people EVERYWHERE, drug addicts, gang members, ect..
mircea_popescu: seems to be the common experience of a lot of people.
douchebag: Just not happy here anymore, haven't been for a long time. It's not a good sight to see everything going to hell and there's nothing I can do about it except leave
douchebag: I have a full time job working remotely, so I'll be just fine over there
mircea_popescu: hey, there's a whole facade riddled with bullet holes in downtown timisoara
douchebag: If you go to the ghetto side of town, you see houses with bullet holes in some of the houses
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo used to live there iirc.
mod6: Lords and Ladies of The Most Serene Republic, The Bitcoin Foundation presents The State of Bitcoin Address for the month of March: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2018-April/000294.html
douchebag: i got a few girls who wanna come in here for the offer, but I was sleeping most of the day
mircea_popescu: precious little ELSE it does, but then again my screwdriver also doesn't juice oranges.
mircea_popescu: l approach for one hobbist in finland to lift into his own head the gnarl of 386.
mircea_popescu: considering also "Simply, I'd say that porting is impossible. As already mentioned, it uses a MMU, for both paging (not to disk yet) and segmentation. It's the segmentation that makes it REALLY 386 dependent (every task has a 64Mb segment for code & data - max 64 tasks in 4Gb. Anybody who needs more than 64Mb/task - tough cookies)." i'd say it actually broadly lives up to the original design -- linux is a fine non-professiona
mircea_popescu: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~awb/linux.history.html << early history of linux is probably important since we're doing so many start-of-world things. note how it was never intended to be an os, it was intended to be a "a (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and professional like gnu) for 386(486) AT clones" in order to... "it was a project to teach me about the 386".
mircea_popescu: anyway, the fact that none of the early bloggers were actually literate minds shows. to give up the power of literature for the lure of "oral history" ? madness.
mircea_popescu: http://links.net/daze/17/01/26-i-was-searching-the-web-for-information-on-lipstick-and-saw-your-excellent-post-catdick.html << aaand here's justin hall being a total n00b.
mircea_popescu: jesus christ why is peterme.com orange ;/ and what the fuck is this, one self-promotion item from jan 2017, another pushing a book from august 2016 and a third from april ? jesus christ these people lack any insides already.
mircea_popescu: https://twitter.com/robotwisdom linked for drama ; apparently brain fell down exact same hole as http://trilema.com/2011/ahahahahahaaaaa/ (paul goma was a big deal briefly in the 60s ; but it didn't take).
mircea_popescu: (guy, notably, is the ~only ustard "literary critic" to have actually read joyce's manuscripts. and you have to hear of this from me because the pantsuit is busy discussing the pseudoachievements of black chicks or w/e the fuck they do.)
mircea_popescu: in other http://btcbase.org/log/2018-03-31#1791647 : robotwisdom.com a) ran 1995 to 2006. notwitstanding the guy's only 60 or so ; and b) only exists as offline copies now. because...
mircea_popescu: or they despise themselves so much (as the direct and also necessary result of spending all their time involved with absolutely nothing else) that they automatically discount anything that happens to them by like 99.9999999%. because, as the wise timuruc once said, "if you were a millionaire you wouldn't be talking to me"
BingoBoingo: Kinda like going to the Ozarks when you already live in St Louis
BingoBoingo: Or they have gone to exotic places like paraguay.
BingoBoingo: They again just about everybody in this country is "on vacation" for some definitions of vacation.
mircea_popescu: imagine the waitresses of today. loose hundred dollar bills and trips to costa rica are such a common everyday occurence in their lives, they don't even have to go chasing. let opportunity chase after the broad instead, is it postmodernism or innit?!?!?!
BingoBoingo: !~later tell douchebag ^ the above logline has some interesting history
BingoBoingo: ^ I saw this http://trilema.com/2015/the-best-biggest-bitcoin-derps-on-welfare-or-the-misadventures-of-young-josh-garza-jonah-dorman-eric-capuano-and-brian-klein/ earlier and figured it was time for another dispatch
deedbot: http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2018/03/31/milestones-in-language-immersion/ << Bingo Blog - Milestones In Language Immersion
a111: Logged on 2018-03-29 20:13 mircea_popescu: in other lulz, news from india : tata came up with a $2500 car. "nano". it has... no 0-60, because it goes 45 at the most.
mircea_popescu: and in other indian news : rotimatic is a roti prata maker. it weighs 18kgs, has about 50 sensors and 500 motors.
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2018/03/bearish-news-for-the-dollar-as-renmibi-moves-into-oil-markets/ << Qntra - Bearish News For The Dollar As Renmibi Moves Into Oil Markets
mimisbrunnr: Logged on 2018-03-31 16:26 mircea_popescu: and in other http://btcbase.org/log/2018-03-30#1791231 lulz, trilema archives deliver http://trilema.com/2014/parody-is-not-there-for-you-cancerous-fags-to-try-and-hide-your-cancer-behind-it/#footnote_3_55572
mimisbrunnr: Logged on 2018-03-31 16:26 mircea_popescu: and in other http://btcbase.org/log/2018-03-30#1791231 lulz, trilema archives deliver http://trilema.com/2014/parody-is-not-there-for-you-cancerous-fags-to-try-and-hide-your-cancer-behind-it/#footnote_3_55572
phf: ben_vulpes: mimisbrunnr perhaps needs a list of fellow bots, so that it ignores links from bot quotes. i remember we had conversations about how to handle it long time ago, but i don't remember what the resolution was. a111 maintains a list of all bots, which is just manually updated
mircea_popescu: "marci" totally watched too much that-lesbian-interest-flick-with-the-older-woman-and-shoes, w/e it was called.
mircea_popescu: "Four years ago this month, I found out that Jane Pratt the editor that had made me want to be an editor since I was 12 years old had chosen me to be the beauty director of her new xoJane beauty spinoff, xoVain. OK, so I was actually her second choice her first had fallen through but that was OK. I had previously not even pitched to xoJane because I was so intimidated and sure I'd be rejected, so getting hired
mircea_popescu: (for the young reader : xojane was some bullshit wanna-be "platform" for imaginary "cimmunities" that got bought by the suckers (time warner) in 2015 and frozen in 2016. because myspace wasn';t enough or something. and huffington post, well, need i even point out, it was exactly the same thing, ran by a nigger somewhat more dextrous still. adriana made out ok from the swindle.)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yeah, i'm not objecting to the thing itself, just mostly thinking out loud.
asciilifeform: at any rate asciilifeform is not his literary agent. moar of grave robber. nobody gotta look in the sarcophagus if they dun want.
mircea_popescu: in vaguely related news, " <p>Personally, I love personal blogs. I’m a sucker for HuffingtonPost, xoJane, and all those other sites with tons of juicy and interesting content.</p>" sez idiot giving advice on how to be blogful ; his page has js-disabled copy-pasting. which evidently works.
mircea_popescu: nevermind the "my lawyer advised me not to comment on the pending case" ; rather instead "sorry your honor, that won't look good on my blog"
asciilifeform: d00d had a healthy audacity and wrote under his own name etc. but then in the end burned everyffin.
mircea_popescu: whereas i find VEHEHERY objectionable the usual "oh, what kangaroo court said is what i ~really~ am, that defines me". and so following.
mircea_popescu: "maybe i don't have much to say ; and maybe what i have to say isn't even that interesting ; but at least i give it my best shot, and i am aware there's nothing else that's me."
mircea_popescu: seems to me a modicum of self respect is nevertheless an absolute requisite for even showing face in a public forum.
asciilifeform: there aint many to choose from.
asciilifeform: some folx have a strange attitude to own writing. i can even better understand the folx who burn their symphonies; but the indifferent -- i have nfi what broke in their heads.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so how does this check out ? he had no copies of the old one or what.
mircea_popescu: (anyway, remind me of the ocarine dood once i signal i'm done reading mazepath. which may take the year or something)
asciilifeform: he was defrocked from his professorship iirc; then sued, won, opened new blog, then some time in 2012 it happened again, but after this vanished. ( see thread )
mircea_popescu: in the buldozing i mean
a111: Logged on 2017-12-17 03:56 asciilifeform: from same thread, http://www.loper-os.org/pub/ilkka.zip << still there, still afaik only copy of his 1st blog in existence on public net
mircea_popescu: all fine and good, except the penultimate article is "Happy (belated) 2018! Posted by Kevin on January 6, 2018 So, I kind of missed my annual/placeholder Happy New Year post this time around
"
mircea_popescu: but, of course, "you can find anything on the internet -- if you put it there yourself."
mircea_popescu: did the whole thing become uninteresting, tritely self-referrential ?
mircea_popescu: also 2018 is the year trilema actually took over my leisure reading needs. by now it's so old i've forgotten a large enough proportion of it the odds of hitting an interesting article loading my own blog actually exceed the odds of hitting something interesting by picking up a torrent, or opening the internets.
mircea_popescu: and in other http://btcbase.org/log/2018-03-30#1791231 lulz, trilema archives deliver http://trilema.com/2014/parody-is-not-there-for-you-cancerous-fags-to-try-and-hide-your-cancer-behind-it/#footnote_3_55572
a111: Logged on 2018-03-31 04:48 mod6: oh btw, the fg-genesis.vpatch and corresponding sig are not available via the archive.is link (originating from loper-os.org) ; You may want to post these some where accessable. I can throw them onto mod6.net if you like.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-03-31#1791619 << they were mirrored from almost first hour of release at phf's http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=fg
mircea_popescu: god damned it was actually on trilema, not on trilema, which is why logsearch didn't turn it up. here, for all time : http://trilema.com/2014/a-conceit-or-the-importance-of-blogging/#selection-67.0-73.452
a111: Logged on 2018-03-21 14:58 a111: Logged on 2016-02-21 02:14 mircea_popescu: (and for the record i will point out that tlp is anglotard enough to miss most of the substance. there's perfecty good reason everyone painted the same god damned vase with two apples next to it, and this has little do to with "you're not boring son ok" and a lot of fucking things to do with ... damn, where's that thread about ther ancient battlefield ?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-03-21#1788411 << so in the end, this thread wasn't ever found was it ?
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes yer site's 502 for the past half hour or so.
mod6: oh btw, the fg-genesis.vpatch and corresponding sig are not available via the archive.is link (originating from loper-os.org) ; You may want to post these some where accessable. I can throw them onto mod6.net if you like.
mod6: asciilifeform: seems to do what is printed on the box (at least from a `txt2dir.py` point of view): http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/cVAQy/?raw=true
asciilifeform: prolly i oughta preemptively answer the q of 'where are the hashes'. answ: hashing belongs in vtron, and would be of entire shebang produced by ^above .
asciilifeform: all it does is the 'human readable tarball' trick.
mod6: thanks for the post asciilifeform
asciilifeform: to see how this applies to $thread, take this , and then try gnudiffing the 'crystals' , then rename files, or move'em between dirs, and diff the resulting 'crystals' again, observe how only the 1 line that defined that 1 file's path, ends up changing
asciilifeform: and yes there is a typo in readme, 't.xtal' should be 'test.xtal' .
asciilifeform: ^ and yes i classically-v-genesised it, given as there is not yet a new-v
asciilifeform: ACHTUNG, PANZERS! : http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2018-March/000293.html
asciilifeform: if the 'must artifically touch files to maintain clean-looking flow tree' is to be considered a problem ( and i do see this pov ) then 'only 1 file ever gets diffed, and it contains metacommands to create actually separate unix files out of its sections' is in fact 1 possible solution. and creates the 'every hash stands for whole project's state' thing.
mod6: Maybe I'm a bit biased. heheh. there are still problems to tackle tho - and it's difficult to do so without adding further complexity.
mod6: Eitherway, I've become to like how we have it now.
asciilifeform: mod6: not really, no. it becomes just another text transform. ditto renames and redirs.
phf: mod6: think plaintext tar archive that you stick inside a vpatch. there's only ever ~one file~ in your tree. for simplicity it's one large trb.cpp that compiles to the result. no other dependencies.
asciilifeform: ( observe, we are -- for foreseeable future -- stuck in unix world, where files exist, and at the very least Makefile, .ads, .adb, etc are forced to occupy separate ones )
phf: yo, it's not a real solution, the only reason i was thinking about is because that's how knuth's literate programming is done. i mean the entirety of code is one file, you use project specific tooling to extract it.
mircea_popescu: phf i don't get it, why would we adapt the way we do things to what'd be convenient for the machines ?
asciilifeform: the way classical v can be , in times of need , reduced to naked eye.
phf: mod6: wait, what? from the way vpatch looks perspective there's literally no difference. you have one diff a/x b/x instead of many, but otherwise the thing looks identical.
asciilifeform ftr biased in favour of pills that leave the orig vtron simple ( while potentially introducing a separate tool for testing conformance to chronology )
phf: problem can also be solved with having entire project in one file, or trinque's approach os tracking hash chains for the entire directory (i.e. treating the whole press as a single file)
phf: with manifest we're basically saying "there's going to be one file, which is going to establish the one true chain, and all these other files are just hanging by the side"
mircea_popescu: this is actually very much the problem, huh.
asciilifeform: (because they have properly low expectations)
phf: right, hence the conversations about sexp v
asciilifeform: problem is that most meaningful transforms are ~not~ attainable automatically, and the otherwise spiffy vtronics create unwarranted expectation of automatism
phf: problem that you run into is really granularity of files (of which we also had thread), and that perhaps having multi-file multi-anticedent vpatches is not the correct thing in genera
asciilifeform: phf: in this sense -- correct, it was never automagically 'omit 1 d00d's key and still get otherwise wholly-valid set of same presses as before'
phf: asciilifeform: it very briefly worked with polarbeard's patches, but that was around active reground time, so the result wasn't particularly interesting. but you could press to experimental head with or without pb's additions, based on whether or not he was in your wot
asciilifeform: by same logic 'v is a bother and let's all shithub', conceivably, neh ?
mircea_popescu: it does, yes. the old french word for it is agincourt.
asciilifeform: just cuz the lorica is too heavy does not prove 'armour is Wrong Thing' , lol
mircea_popescu: the original "many keys" solution to that proved untenable.
asciilifeform: phf: which is why i wrote the classical vtron the way i did -- wanted max flexibility of form. and yes this has cost.
asciilifeform: phf: can you give a concrete press head for current-trb that will barf if the lateral-walk is removed ?
mircea_popescu: rather, there's a shared understanding that's applied by degrees. because the sty is so dirty you have to peel layers off, as the only possible approach.
mircea_popescu: can you turn around and say, "fg tree shows people didn't at the time understand v isn't married to the underlying format" or something ?
mircea_popescu: otherwise, all v versions of anything were in fact rewrites.
mircea_popescu: in fact, the only legacy pantsuit item almost-v-ified would be wp, and that's STILL not done in spite of being two degrees of magnitude simpler, because of all sorts of "holy shit, svg"
phf: well, cutting "makefiles" from trb and going up the graph demonstrates many places where full press wouldn't happen with current behavior, but will still happen with the "buggy" one. so either there was a shared understanding that has changed, or else people who claim that that was shared understanding haven't looked at the trb tree at the time to observe the buggy behavior themselves.
mircea_popescu: there's no dispute that understanding of v has evolved ; but i don't happen to see the uncertainity.
phf: mircea_popescu: i don't agree that the "in the sense" is correct. trb patchset relied on pressing the lateral trees behavior up until recent nailing down of graph, which was a result of elaboration from clearer understanding. i think the understanding of v has evolved, and things of which there was much uncertainty and hand waving in the past are now much more obvious. i don't think it's the case that "the behavior was always that way" in an accidental
mircea_popescu: anyway, the seemingly correct solution is for convention to be changed, so that 1. genesis author creates a comments.txt file or else it's not a proper genesis ; 2. all subsequent patches MUST include an edit to the comments.txt file of the codebase they are pressed upon, which 3. must consist of adding one line at the end consisting of whatever text the patch author deems useful to add and may not be null and 4. should ideal
mimisbrunnr: Logged on 2018-03-30 22:15 phf: trinque: i'm describing how things are right now, how things were, and what informs my and mod6 opinions on the subject. uncertainty about past behaviors in my opinion tends to influence uncertainty about future solutions
mircea_popescu: so, the fact that an always is becoming a sometimes isn't a point of concern in the hard sense of http://logs.bvulpes.com/trilema?d=2018-3-30#322868 (which is otherwise broadly correct)
mircea_popescu: but in the general approach to the problem, 1. all specification will sort items into "always" "sometimes : as per conditions" "never" and categories ; and 2. all refinement of specification will move items, but ONLY from the left to the right and not the other way around.
mimisbrunnr: Logged on 2018-03-30 22:13 phf: trinque: there's no "returning to", original behavior is "press everything that falls from under this head"
mircea_popescu: http://logs.bvulpes.com/trilema?d=2018-3-30#322858 << only in the sense of "original v promised the letter a will only be used 8805 times in code, because that;s how many times it happened to use it and i choose to take this strange view"
phf: hmm, manifest's hash though solves the same problem, we're essentially driving the graph by manifest hash chain, and the other files in patch are for additional culling
phf: e.g. the patch itself starts with mandatory parent: <hash>/false. this though completely eliminates the complicated graph transition machinery. all patches are hashed blobs, that you can point to by its hash
phf: if we're trying to nail down antecedents, why not put parent hash into vpatch prelude. i.e. "this vpatch can only happen after a vpatch with the given hash has been applied"
trinque: using it as an exercise to sign all the patches I haven't, too.
trinque: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/8d93M/?raw=true << here's another HISTORY file, incomplete, that I've been putting together.
mircea_popescu: ie, "your patch must do two things to count : build off a valid tree state ; and explain itself in plaintext in the comments file for the project"
mircea_popescu: trinque seems the logical place this is going is "make comments file addition mandatory for each patch"
trinque: yeah, the hash idea was bunk.
mircea_popescu: just grows the file.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform note that this hash is not opposable to anything. you can hash the system time for all the difference it makes.
asciilifeform: 'hash everything' is tricky tho : do you also hash the manifest ?? (presumably up to the exact point where new hash gets inserted ?? )
asciilifeform: ah yes iirc trinque proposed to remove the illusion created by classical gnupatch , that of file-independence
trinque: asciilifeform: sure, and it's nice that this ends up there in plaintext to be read, rather than blobs in a git black box
asciilifeform: original v left chronicling as a per-project convention, to the pleasure of the project operator, rather than part of vtron
mircea_popescu: the trinque original (which im too lazy to dig out atm) was "concatenate your whole codebase, hash it, add the resut on a new line of manifest.txt" pretty much.