asciilifeform: heathens are , as i currently understand, so unspeakably stupid that 'stealing fixed code' is not to date ever observed, they re-break as soon as they touch. ( any heathens stole trb for the shitfork warz, other than funkenstein ? )
mircea_popescu: wait for someone to sink in the (not insiginificant) cost of fixing the code, "fork" it, market it, and essentially cash in on the op's work.
asciilifeform: to concretize -- what exactly might a malignant heathen do with eulora client ? make own idjit server to go with it ?
asciilifeform: monkey had ak for quite a while -- e.g. the openly published fg design; but apparently monkey has atrociously poor aim
mircea_popescu: seems human civilisation managed to mostly keep rifles out of the hands of children, potash out of the mouths of babes and so on.
mircea_popescu: i'm thinking more in the veins of, "really, you gave monkey ak ?"
asciilifeform: ftr i share in the traditional frustration ( which goes back to , yes, rms & the gpl folx ) where 'why should hitler get to use my proggy'. but imho it uncomfortably echoes that of the gurlz on arsebook etc, 'i want to write about my fucks but for ~everyone but mother~ to read'
mod6: I see this as even beyond the Eulora scenario, stretching out to any TMSR~ source; I just don't see a good way to solve it right now, other than being selective with who gets rights to see the $src.
asciilifeform: let's say that eulora becomes suddenly unspeakably popular , and lusers write 9000 sad clients. they're still forced to play by the game rules nailed down in the server, neh
asciilifeform: my understanding is that client is currently published ; how many shoddy heathen forks ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i thought the eulora model was 'proprietary server, 9000 clients' ?
mod6: It seems like a burden to thrust these decisions upon the L1 however, should someone defect and leak the sensitive materials.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes. one guy puts in all the work to make the damned thing, and then some moron "forks" it.
mod6: and as far as the eulora client, maybe S.MG wants the source to remain closed, this is for them to decide.
mod6: I'm not sure that we have the correct abilities to do such a thing at this time, at least on a policy based level.
asciilifeform: mod6: my original disagreement in $thread wasn't re 'sometimes gotta try to limit distribution to l1' -- it is very easy to think of cases where this is the obvious Right Thing -- but in re eulora client in particular, i still dun see what the eulora folx have to keep seekrit in the client ( i.e. what problem do 'heathens produce shoddy client' create, that ordinary pgp signature doesn't solve )
mod6: I would like for TMSR~ to retain it's own code; for many reasons, including preventing other possible fraud and snake-oil salesmen... a variety of things have been written about on the subject in here actually.
mod6: I'd like to say, that I don't think that it's an over all /bad/ idea, I'm just not sure if it's a good idea either. I think this might just be a case-by-case basis.
mod6: Another thing, I was thinking about was: Perhaps shipping the source to all L1, maybe let people request this themselves.
mircea_popescu: considering there's literal billions involved...
mircea_popescu: not really. there's a mechanism to permit the user to check his client against what it tells the server
asciilifeform: for some reason i thought that the thing was build specifically to be agnostic of client (i.e. so long as they speaks the published protocol, all clients work)
mircea_popescu: this isn't some sort of banana republic, where it's either go president or get shot.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ( admittedly i haven't read the referenced item ) what's to stop client from sending to server the old hashes ?
mircea_popescu: what, there's no life after lordship ?
mircea_popescu: of course something keeps them.
mod6: Another scenario that I was kind of thinking about is where: Lord X encrypts $src_code, drops it into deedbot, and $src_code is encyptped to {a,b,c,d}. Upon a future date, person 'a', is drummed out and neg-rated. Nothing stops person 'a' from still decypting that $src_code with his key, neg-rated or not. This is not wholly differnt than before... just saying that there's no "backsies".
mircea_popescu: consider the case at hand. i dunno if you've read the proposed protocol etc, but suppose it happens with euclient. so recognized owner creates a new set of binaries (i dunno, moves a class around say) and i use the new hashes for server, and so the leaker gets what exactly ? client for a server that won't talk to it ?
mod6: what may happen in the future; trust between two or more people might not be the same as it is today.
mircea_popescu: mod6 we have the only instrument known to man of productive fingerpointing.
mod6: When given the prospect of asking someone in L1 to hold long-term, or indefinite secrets as opposed to short-term secrets, it gets much harder to evaluate the trust or risk. One can not predict
asciilifeform: for the obvious reason, aha.
mircea_popescu: and for the exact sort of reason, neh ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i thought of 1 far-conveyor item where i actually had it in my notes 'to be for l1 encyclical only' -- the shortwave repeater
mod6: From the earlier discussion, I tend to see a lot of points from all sides. And quite an interesting discussion. I've been thinking on it all day.
mod6: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-16#1834927 << ack. There are certain projects that I can see the benefits of this. There are others where I can see it doesn't fit.
mod6: evenin', gonna step through these logs here.
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron anyway, the goal isn't specifically client competition. but it seems to me it's a necessary possibility.
mircea_popescu: ah, right, the damn moving sands.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 16:01 diana_coman: mircea_popescu, there is of course the fact that l1 is neither for life nor perhaps yet all that difficult to get in and out - I don't know whether this is a l1 matter or a s.mg board matter
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2012/the-roaring-twenties/ << "Who is this guy?" "This is Eddie Bartlett." "How were you hooked up with him?" "I... I guess I've never figured it out." "What was his business?" "He used to be a big shot."
mircea_popescu: i kinda lost track of him myself ; but plox to maintain the wot in good working order from own pov.
deedbot: mircea_popescu rated shinohai 3 at 2017/04/15 14:13:48 << The Right Honorable Baron Titsbare
deedbot: mircea_popescu rated Framedragger 4 at 2017/04/15 14:15:10 << His Lordship the Lord Scanner
deedbot: mircea_popescu rated jurov 5 at 2016/05/17 03:25:03 << his lordship the lord treasurer.
a111: 2018-04-14 <davout> should have synced by the end of next week
deedbot: mircea_popescu rated davout 5 at 2016/05/17 03:24:29 << his lordship the master of common pleas.
asciilifeform: see e.g. http://qntra.net/2018/03/nine-citizens-of-iran-given-the-honour-of-inclusion-in-usg-fbis-wanted-list/ , or the chinese derping in '16, and prior, endless rerun of same old film
mircea_popescu: what, ustardia has a history beyond the now ?
mircea_popescu: basically they're negrating people for not being in #usgovt now ?
shinohai: Welp asciilifeform I found the replacement for my fg: https://www.etsy.com/listing/614770978/d20-twerk-o-matic-booty-dice-butt-plug
BingoBoingo: <Mocky> i've been meaning to learn spanish. they got cute girls there? << Here we have them in most colors except African/Asian/Indian. The taller ones usually show up December/January
mircea_popescu , with 40 (rounded) years' experience in disrupting other people's lives!
mircea_popescu: well when you're done with that coordinate with BingoBoingo for an airbnb or w/e for the relevant interval and there you go.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo do you like the idea of hosting or should i include an airbnb in his vacation package.
asciilifeform: Mocky: troo, they dun have'em in the ocean either, mostly , unless you like fucking dolphin
Mocky: white onthe inside!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: he has a http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2018/06/26/and-then-there-was-light/ . definitely looks to have room for sleeping bag.
asciilifeform: Mocky: they got'em nearly errywhere. in roughly geometrically increasing proportion to distance from usa...
diana_coman: asciilifeform, for some more than for others
mircea_popescu: AND THEN SAY WHAT IT WAS ABOUT
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i see binaries as a cache for src . ( exactly in fact how emacs sees it. ) and thereby i have approx same interest in downloading and running bins built by ~others~ , as in stuffing food they have pre-digested somehow into my own gut, bypassing mouth
diana_coman: asciilifeform, I enjoyed his stories during those 2-3 years when I read almost only SF, 16-18 or there about; when I re-read now I kept getting annoyed because I keep finding it starts well and then sort of veers into what he'd like the world to be rather than what it is
a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 16:31 mircea_popescu: i have to fucking compile every thing the 9000th time, i can't just put binary images on my 9001th rockchip ?!
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-16#1835051 << to continue on this : the whol.e fucking STRENGTH, of both mytyical-lisp and mythical-emacs (not the objects at any point extant, but the imaginary figments in the wide eyed userbase's minds) was specifically that ... wait for it... does the exact same thing, keeps binary of "world" around, saves time thereby.
mircea_popescu: uncharacteristically close to original, even has same ending. i just cleanned up the science a little.
Mocky: oh yes, that was good. but i never read the original
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: was. and '9000' other tales.
mircea_popescu: Mocky you ever read my other sheckley rewrite btw ?
diana_coman: there's the golden goose too! and for that matter there was that "pay the oracle to give you answers" event for all the good it did
lobbesbot: Logged on 2015-08-08 05:20:40: <mircea_popescu> there's even bezzle magic goldbags
Mocky: was reference to eulora item I read about in the logs: http://logs.minigame.biz/2015-08-08.log.html#t05:20:40
diana_coman: so go ane improve ye young man! uhm, old, I forgot it's me the youngun
mircea_popescu: heck, it lets people sample it every day, what. they've so far discovered so very much... lol.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman entirely my arbitrary call. i'll put whatever strings in there i put, and well... what can you do.
asciilifeform: ( i could picture a game that can survive players seeing the server, e.g. networked 'doom', but not all can )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform maybe this is not evident, but there's a large difference between client and server in a mmorpg. here discussed is client, equivalent of browser in phuctor-netuser relationship
mircea_popescu: the usual eulora client luser won't ask for anything before runnign any binary they can get hands on.
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, tbh I keep thinking that I'd rather have at least someone in l1 signing a binary before I run it but I'm not even sure that makes sense atm without imposing therefore on l1 to build the binary
asciilifeform: even considering machine cycles to cost 0 -- the expense is psychological, of introducing promisetronics ( and , inescapably, doubt ) where it does not absolutely necessarily belong. but i risk repeating self.
mircea_popescu: other than deedbot storage bill and some minimum administration of pleas, "hey, he published my java on malbolge.com mocksite"
asciilifeform: when the win from keeping out the heathens justifies the very real expense of keeping the cards to your chest
asciilifeform: i dun actually have any problem with idea of trade secret, where mircea_popescu & diana_coman keep their server to themselves under pillow etc.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman no, he means he spent 20 years with the retards, ended up soaking in inept notions about "intellectual property"
asciilifeform: diana_coman: it is possible that i misread the entire thread, but my understanding was that it was about considering the idea of no longer defaulting to open publication of e.g. cuntoo
diana_coman: Mocky, do you mean that l1 basically are sort of locked out of making their own client because the more logical thing to do would be to collaborate with existing author?
mircea_popescu: Mocky why wouldn't you just act like a sane human being and tell them, "hey, i'd like to participate / work on this project."
asciilifeform: diana_coman: idea being, secrets have a place, if i did not believe this i would not have any interest in crypto. but their place is ~where must~, not ~wherever possible~
Mocky: what if someone in l1 wants to one day make eulora client, has access to src of all clients to date. If it was me in l1 and it were another who was client author, I think I would hesitate to make my own client
diana_coman: asciilifeform, hm, I don't follow/think it's an apt metaphor there
asciilifeform: diana_coman: it is precisely because i do not see a public outside of l1, that i regard the idea of 'l1-only publications' as in most cases wrongheaded
asciilifeform: even dope has a place, if you're a bomber pilot and flak killed your navigator, his assistant, and entire gun crew, and you're on the 71st hour of flying the somehow still-winged wreckage home , then yes, take the pill
diana_coman: it's true it was worded with that hook in it and I bit on it first for sure but I'm reading it more and more as "we make it public; but what public is there outside l1??"
mircea_popescu: so all the better, we're looking for more ways to kill the few remaining survivors anyway.
mircea_popescu: (which, contrary to all the pretense, is 100% what cia/bia/mia/fuckwhatia IS)
mircea_popescu: if the answer is "you're a poopyhead", it'll have to be somehow resolved, neh ?
mircea_popescu: it is after all a ~managed~ process, and misgivings should be aired rather than festered anyways.
diana_coman: basically the specific interest is not code's author - he deeds it and then who is interested and in l1 looks at it
mircea_popescu: the sticky issue of arbitrarily excluding some people from l1 in this sense is that why didn't you a) speak up during http://trilema.com/2018/the-rivers-of-blood-article-or-the-lordship-list-fifth-year/ and b) why wasn't whatever problem you saw remedied.
mircea_popescu: eg http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-16#1834975 and yet the world's not come to an end.
mircea_popescu: and i suppose this is where i insert an important distinction, the lack of which perhaps informed most of alf's earlier protests : provided l1 has code asdiscussed, there are two, very strictly distinct, leaks. 1. is when x guy in lordship shares it with y guy not in lordship. 2. is when x guy in lordship ~publishes~, which is to say, shares with ~unspecified~ outsiders.
mircea_popescu: these are people ~you actually want~ to read your code. heck, you'd pay them, if possible.
mircea_popescu: but really, to capture ~all~ the benefit of code sharing, with none of the downsides.
mircea_popescu: Mocky yes ; and to provide ~some~ recourse to the herd.
mircea_popescu: you have no idea what the crab expects. so the hermit crab, yes ? it has no lungs. nor does it have fish gills. what it has is a sort of spider-like book things ; and they need to be wet, but in air. in water--drowns. if dried -- asphyxiates. talk about evoluted tech.
asciilifeform: just as 'voodoo from a distance' pre-dated the ballistic rocket etc.
mircea_popescu feels the urge to include "- the human animal is a beast that dies and if he's got money he buys and buys and buys and I think the reason he buys everything he can buy is that in the back of his mind he has the crazy hope that one of his purchases will be life everlasting!Which it never can be
" for the pleasure of future readers.
asciilifeform: people aren't exactly entirely not hermit crabs... outside of sea divers, orbiters, etc we generally don't carry oxygen around, but rather expect to find it in immediate surrounding like the crab expects his food.
mircea_popescu: half the aftermarket for fucking rv's ("wouldn't it be great if we regressed 10mn years ?!") is pouches of all sorts of kinds.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: as i understand they ain't ants, they are wired for 'food is to be looked for in immediate vicinity, when hungry'. think 'grasshopper', not 'ant', in aesopian terminology.
mircea_popescu: turns out that the most carrying animal is also the least carry-concerned. wouldn't you expect snail has saddle bags for the shell ?
asciilifeform: ( then -- change of management -- and not . )
asciilifeform: for the most part, 1980s crapple soft ~actually ran~ on the ppc iron. and for a few yrs into their intel product line, ppc proggies -- also ran !
mircea_popescu: let me tell you something about the crabs, i found fascinating last i was getting a beach blowjob. so, they all move in ~same direction, as far as eye can see, thousands of them. and as you say, right, "all that is mine i carry with". now, if they happen to run into some food, they'll stop a little, have a little, MOVE ON. they make 0 attempt to ~carry the food~. or even search for it.
asciilifeform: observe that some comp makers tried to maintain similar promise to customers -- whole reason why crapple outlived the 1990s, they spent astonishing effort on transparently emulating first their obsolete 68k , then ppc
mircea_popescu: those guys upgrade the iron!
mircea_popescu: btw, you know the beaches here are full of hermit crabs ?
asciilifeform: but point is, they were 'embedded system', 'all that is mine, i carry with me, said the snail'
mircea_popescu: anyways, the 90s, who even remembers.
asciilifeform: 1980s nintendos , fed their old cartridges, still work today. ( and when not work -- there are even folx to repair'em. ) i had colleague who had an entire room of these.
mircea_popescu: me too, but i didn't like the sort of crowd it created. years later i read what zappa had to say about disco crowd, almost exactly the same sentiment.
asciilifeform: but i grasp the general principle.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'll admit that i'm utterly innocent of consolism, with the exception of 1 occasion where i purchased an ancient 'virtual buy' to cut, with hacksaw, apart for the optics
mircea_popescu was always spiteful of the boxen, never bought never liked, never socialized with the console kids etc.
mircea_popescu: also the first promise microsoft kept, to my knowledge
asciilifeform: it's more or less the 1 and only thing console maker promises to the buyer. ( otherwise buyer would buy a comp )
Mocky: xbox game bought today will run on every xbox. no requirement to hook up to the net and get updates.
asciilifeform: people like to laugh at nintendo, but that's what the actual hard-engineering solution to the problem of dynamicism looks like. e.g. FG src ~will~ run on every FG, and if in any case it is found not to, ~that unit~ is defective and to be immediately replaced. just like nintendo that wouldn't run 'mario XVIII' or whatnot.
mircea_popescu: then quit doing it, sadly enough.
asciilifeform: ( before laughing -- consider, the 'games console' people came to this train stop long ago, in 1980s. because really that's the only way to actually deliver on the demand of 'fully static, depends on no variables under control of outsiders ' )
asciilifeform: the desired word is 'to put on solid foundations'
asciilifeform: 'explain' is muchly the wrongest possible word
asciilifeform: how the fuck do i even say обосновать in engl
mircea_popescu: the correct reaction re explanations is ~that the subject aspiring move inside the walls~, nothing else.
mircea_popescu: nor will there ever be.
asciilifeform: sorta why asciilifeform pushed ave1 to cut down the gnat libs.
asciilifeform: reproducible bins are The Right Thing, but it is impossible to explain ~why~ outside of the context of hand-auditability.
mircea_popescu: and also, consider : eulora client is ~definitionally~ for all comers. these people won't run your toolchain anyway.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the correct pill re 'dynamic' is simply to cut the dynamic loader nonsense out of cuntoo once and for all.
mircea_popescu: ~something to talk about~. it can be many things, and most not even contemplable at the onset.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman note that "binary identity" is not even necessary a premise. you can go "hey shithead, why the fuck are you linking dynamic mysql when there's been a static one for five years". or w/e.
asciilifeform: the other pertinent fact is that we don't have 'eternal' bins until we have a pinned-down kernel, and the latter requires pinned-down iron.
diana_coman: well, if he releases for windows, who the fuck see can't reproduce
mircea_popescu: which, i'm told, is the true basis of all happy marriages.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman you see the code he deeded and see can't reproduce. so now you two have something to talk about
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but i ~didn't propose that~ in 2016, either, did i.
diana_coman: yes, but how do you even know that the binary he releases is really the code he deeded?
mircea_popescu: diana_coman well because say mocky does the release. ima frown if his release sucks, and he doesn't want that ; and his toolchain is to be expected better than literally rando camwhore's, "i dunno how kleopatra works". neh ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: observe that so far, at least as visible from my tower, i've succeeded in this. whereas if i had distributed the whole kit in february of 2016, to kako et al, chances are that wouldn't.
phf: (my logotron has not been that way since the fateful burning man of 2 years ago, now "maintenance" involves adapting to changing landscape of e.g. freenode, etc.)
asciilifeform: the other pertinent distinction is that phuctor is not meant as a building block to use inside other systems. pretty much whole rationale for asciilifeform's refusal to publish whole thing, is specifically to prevent/delay such attempts at use.
mircea_popescu: seems altogether an improvement of overal object code being run.
asciilifeform: aha, with the steam valves.
mircea_popescu: this is no sort of life, incidentally. it's what the old "engineering" used to be, "construct complicated looms that are friable and hard to maintain so as to have an eat."
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: as i suspect the folx who stole phuctor v.1 and v.2 src discovered, and prolly not much surprise to anybody else, phuctor is not a fully automatic mechanism. it requires asciilifeform's hands , applied on fairly regular basis, to function correctly. sorta like phf's logtron, for instance.
mircea_popescu: yet somehow ~there~ you see why this is not much of a concern.
mircea_popescu: for all you know, BingoBoingo hooked up the kvm while you slept and mod6 read your postgres code and is still laughing.
mircea_popescu: nevermind "shed some light". the point fucking remains, as long as secrets are kept secrets are kept, what the fuck.
mircea_popescu: and no, you've not published phuctor, nor liked the idea. shall i quote you or can you quote yourself ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform because of the human element involved.
trinque: process might be to have l1 build, gossip about the hashes of build they produced, at which point who cares who built, that's the item
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if 'who leak to, goats?' then why spend even a penny on effort to pass around srcballs 'in confidence' ?
mircea_popescu: that's why i'm not fucking concerned of "l1 leaks". who the fuck are they going to leak TO ? the goats ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but these cotemplated here are built under control, of the only human invoplved in the relationship!
trinque had the cuntoo builder set aside bins for exactly this reason
mircea_popescu: nobody does this ; you don't either.
mircea_popescu: i have to fucking compile every thing the 9000th time, i can't just put binary images on my 9001th rockchip ?!
mircea_popescu: why the fuck not ?
trinque: meanwhile there may be place for a solution better than "go use satan's gcc / gentoo livecd / etc to bootstrap
asciilifeform: trinque: i fully expect that when we finally get the hell off c , there'll be no moar of 'distributing bootstrap bins'
trinque: the open problems are facts of life today
asciilifeform: sure, but i gotta point out that the proposed win from distributing bins, is illusory.
mircea_popescu: we're not in the business of guarantee.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: releasing binaries does not create this guarantee. even static elf, when put on a box where linus et al (or his successor) see it fit to subtly change the abi, will bomb, and not necessarily immediately. and i'ma still 'be idiot'
mircea_popescu: they too are someone's children, you know.
mircea_popescu: do you not care about the machines AT ALL ?!
asciilifeform: for all i know, somewhere there exists a d00d who tried to build e.g. trb on a vax. and thinks asciilifeform is idjit, because it dun go. how's that skin off my back.
mircea_popescu: situation 2, as contemplated : you release a binary, which mp like an idiot runs, and that's that. the machine no longer has cause to think alf's an idiot.
mircea_popescu: dude. situation 1, as currently : you release code, mp like an idiot compiles it on ubuntu, jnow your code exists as a drepper mockery of itself. as far as the machine can tell, you asciilifeform are an idiot.
asciilifeform: what is gained from having there exist a drepperized systemd thing ? or what am i missing
mircea_popescu: so then ? is this not a gain ?
mircea_popescu: but i mean... lookit, the author will make a static binary ; and who the fuck is going to make a drepper systemd thing ?
mircea_popescu: now, do you dispute that it permits control of the released binaries ?
a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 15:44 mircea_popescu: 3. very clearly quashes the idiocy of rms-ism AND ers-ism ("open source" bla bla), and makes the strong political statement that indeed there is a difference between nose breathers and mouthbreathers and so on.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 15:44 mircea_popescu: this release paradigm has the advantages that 1. permits us to control binaries, which means stuff like http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-16#1834888 (which i'm very much impressed with, btw) ; 2. permits to reserve some interest for the author, because the strategic thinking over at minigame is that we'll want client competition (from skinning all the way to all the way) and remuneration by installs (hence all that hash dance in
asciilifeform: the confidentiality of $magicsrc, presumably
asciilifeform: if you dun care for the metaphor -- there's the old and continuing promisetronics discussion.
mircea_popescu: well... there are engines that work by soaking. moreover what is this, metaphore exercise hour ?
asciilifeform: organizations that try to keep long-lived secrets, inside groups with changing membership, are more or less the star clowns in the heathen circus.
asciilifeform: relatively compact -- and, more importantly -- short-lived -- seekrits -- are practical. e.g. i send BingoBoingo a qntra item, gpggrammed so as not to get scooped by heathens. next hour it gets published openly.
mircea_popescu: but we've done l1 releases in the past, neh ?
asciilifeform: i'm struggling and failing to come up with a scenario where it doesn't ultimately land you in the same hot pot of ridiculous boiling oil as usg boils in.
asciilifeform: the illusion that something given to, e.g., 7 people, is reliably in confidence . the next kako or whoever, releases the seekrit at a time of his choosing, for maximum damage, and you get to run around making faces like usg
diana_coman: asciilifeform, as I understand it, this is first and foremost a political statement; the gains are not from "oooh, you don't know my ugly code"
mircea_popescu: but what is the illusion ?
mircea_popescu: how is the described process cost anything ? i dun get it. because deedbot ends up storing tons of loc ?
mircea_popescu: are you talking to what i'm saying or to what some other guy mighv'e said that was also an idiot ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it gained whatever cost was saved by not screwing around with encrypted downloads or whatever other futile attempts to make water unwet
mircea_popescu: well it can't, server is the heart of things.
asciilifeform: let's rephrase the q -- to date , eulora published client src ; what did it lose thereby ?
mircea_popescu: diana_coman that part is coincidental ; it just happened that the first candidate for testing this paradigm happened to be owned by minigame.
mircea_popescu: that's how you fuck women, yes ? they keep secrets and the verifying is impossible ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: sure . but what does it then mean to ask someone to keep a secret, if even verifying the keeping of the promise is impossible ( much less 'enforce' ) ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform a) there's no practical possibilty for collective answerable ; b) as discussed in previous thread (when you were trying to make up contest rules), it's not possible to prove the owner himself didn't leak.
diana_coman: it doesn't automatically mean that; but if it turns out yes, it's the client's author that is left out to dry, no?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the cost -- 'opposability' -- mircea_popescu gives me a magic proggy, nao i have to guard it and be answerable for loss
mircea_popescu: yes, obviously, putting any sort of depending burden upon the l1 means it'll mean more than less. but how much do we want it to mean in the first place ?
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, there is of course the fact that l1 is neither for life nor perhaps yet all that difficult to get in and out - I don't know whether this is a l1 matter or a s.mg board matter
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform explain the cost ?
asciilifeform: phf: the pov that programmingism is a kind of tard reservation ~specifically because~ of the ease of reusing ancient src, is imho defensible.
asciilifeform: phf: in my particular case, phuctor backend is unpublished specifically because i do not want to encourage people to build on top of it. when i am killed, i'd hope that if folx still feel a desire for a phuctor they will take what asciilifeform ~publicly~ wrote on subj, and make a superior one, rather than trying to maintain the old ball of hack.
phf: well, it's kind of at the core of tmsr, that king lear starts with a folly
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform exactly ; in which vein one'd much rather have the original precious cuntlets that did it than the original symbolix.
mircea_popescu: "oh, the code belongs to the people". things can't belong to things incapable of ownership. which is why the stars belong to me, not me to mother earth or w/e is the american indian femview.
asciilifeform: phf: observe that using mechanisms created by dead people is ~very~ expensive, and seldom worth it. and they do not magically return to life by virtue of other folx having a raw copy of sores.
mircea_popescu: i do not presently believe it is ~possible~ to not to ; idiotic socialistoidisms aside. and no, i don't think the world, or even the garbage bin, of the "idealistic" "visionary" nonsense, either.
asciilifeform: and it has 0 to do with 'million fly eyes', but with simply the futility .
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i dun have any ideological allergy to 'proprietary proggy', but must point out that the historical examples are uninspiring, pretty much erryone who was specifically trying to win from limiting distribution of sores, did not win, quite the opposite.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i don't aim, not to accomplish nor to anything. but i wrote it down! by numbers! what i imagine the outcomes to be.
asciilifeform: i guess the part i dun grasp, is what exactly mircea_popescu would wish to accomplish by making a proprietary proggy & distributing src to anointed folx
mircea_popescu: it means the author has a decent claim to stand on.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but this isn't either 1 nor 2 nor 3.
asciilifeform: even outside of coloism -- e.g. google kept the troo cr50 sores 'seekrit' ; didn't prevent http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-25#1829533
mircea_popescu: the key is "keep from whom".
mircea_popescu: i don't specifically know whether this would work well for systems work. but we're starting this discussion with a ~client~. 99% of people WANT the binary in thew first place.
asciilifeform: sure. but i can picture scenarios where this makes sense, and would like to see the 'unsexy', practical pov of 'how' elaborated in the l0gz.