mircea_popescu: not butchering the forefathers' work, specifically NOT doing inane miseries like http://trilema.com/2016/there-has-not-yet-been-seen-a-simple-thing-even-if-were-drowning-in-simple-people/ ; or like bowdler's "work" ; or like ~TRANSLATING THE SCRIPTURES~ is an important, perhaps the principal measurement of a culture. the fact that dante's work "is no longer relevant to italian society today" simply means "italian society toda
mircea_popescu: but still, i think the proper view of the matter is in the vein of how romans regarded testaments. because really, every published anything's a will.
mircea_popescu: and so if some guy publishes some piece of software saying "and this is to be used on sundays only", the proper decision before the republican is "do i use it on sundays or do i not use it at all ?". none of this bars discussion, "what the fuck is wrong with you, reiser ?!" nor in extremis "fu, i'll use it when i use it", nor even "in my considered opinion your sunday's my wednesday" reinterpetation.
mircea_popescu: the codas antecessors put on things are not to be ignored wholesale. yes if those antecessors are, esentially, the http://trilema.com/2011/oricine-poate-sa/ notion of "mula", ie indistinct biomass, then whatever they thought they said is incapable of meaning in the first place. yet if those antecessors are actual people with actual keys, what they say is meaningful and the meaning probably important.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 04:44 ave1: And the whole thing affirms the power/status of the Lords. I.E. when an author goes against a Lords wishes or AWOL it is then in the power of that Lord to contact another author and give him the source etc.
mircea_popescu: http://www.dianacoman.com/2018/07/17/discriminatory-code-sharing/ << i'd say this is broadly correct ; though i somewhat disagree with both ave1's take (as in http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835508 ) as well as diana_coman implict take here ( say in "hat they decide to do with it, if anything, is of course their own call entirely." ) in the following limited sense :
a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 01:23 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835632 << and by "the uruguayos" we mean the ustard 5th column, of course.
a111: Logged on 2017-03-08 22:29 mircea_popescu: in other lulz : femen, the "ukrainian" organisation is selling shit priced in dollars via 2checkout.com, the columbus ohio us corp.
mircea_popescu: if the https://www.googletagmanager.com/gtag/js? / http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-08#1623380 fingerprints all over didn't give it away.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 21:10 BingoBoingo: And in local cardboard artwork unveilled before tomorrow's independence day: http://vivirsinmiedo.com.uy/ << The Uruguayos want a Gendarmie, More bodies in prisons, and Night Raids!!!
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835632 << and by "the uruguayos" we mean the ustard 5th column, of course.
mircea_popescu: i always thought the 80s verbiage about "capitalism more adaptable" was a fucking riot.
mircea_popescu: so it can be stolen "by the whole people".
mircea_popescu: so after 6 months of production the decision was taken not to put anything in anymore.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 20:55 asciilifeform: consider how many 'insoluble' engineering problems vanish when you remove the nonsensical 'must work for 8 billion meatsacks' condition.
trinque: this fits with my cartoon head-simulation of the soviet era
asciilifeform: 'what was in there' 'who knows'
asciilifeform: anecdote: asciilifeform's elder brother 'lived long enuff' to see sov arcades at length. the infamous 'sea battle' machine universally had a prize compartment, that would open if some outlandish score were achieved. one time, bag of coins, and he managed it. rusty compartment... grinds open. of course empty. arcade keeper 'what did you expect, didja really think you're the first'
asciilifeform: ( admittedly the plushies much less plush nao than 20yrs ago )
mircea_popescu: alright then.
mircea_popescu: or vice-versa, "here's your free plushie for throwing things at geese well, and a 0.03 bill for keeping the lights on"
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 03:01 mircea_popescu: it is however not the customer's problem that the fair price point for borland whatever is 0.0006 except borland can';t chage that because must be 9.95 or else visa monopoly throws a fit.
mircea_popescu: it's not done irl very much because http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835457 ; but if i go to the arcade i'd much prefer an arcade where "you owe us 0.03 cents for electricity + roof ; and 1 dollar because you suck at throwing these damned darts"
mircea_popescu: now ~a portion of that~ can very well be kicked back to client authors, if nothing else to cover the significant effort of eg a complete reskining. which'd give the player the benefit of "do i want to play this game looking like high fantasy or scandalous nudity"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: do the subscribers currently pay ?
mircea_popescu: h where "your results pay for your ineptitude using the platform as well as my costs providing it".
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 17:13 lobbes: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835608 << this was a key piece I was missing as well. For some reason I thought scheme was 'lock down production of binaries so as to allow authors to work out their own pay-for-client mechanism.' Whole thing makes way more sense to me nao
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835611 << no ; the idea is that there will be separation between objective costs of running (passed on to the client in the shape of food necessities to keep character alive -- starve it long enough and it dies) and the implicitly risky nature of euloran activity. i don't want to get into detail here, but i believe it's the correct approach, allocation, rather than trying a pauschal approac
asciilifeform: my disagreement bottle then is empty.
asciilifeform: my only disagreement was re the notion that this is necessarily The Right Thing for erry proggy, as some sort of counter to 'rmsism'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform well i suppose this is basically the thing here -- a relaxation allowing specified mechanisms for a specified sort of "work in confidence" to still count.
mircea_popescu: perhaps even on the contrary.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform sure, which is why the ~code author's option~. obviously one's well advised to think about things.
mircea_popescu: the fact that asciilifeform hasn't to date read the (published) eulora client source doesn't cost ~ asciilifeform ~ anything. it costs minigame something, presumably.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 16:04 asciilifeform: Mocky: i in fact do not have objection to it either way, it is a stylistic decision for diana_coman & mircea_popescu , not mine to make
asciilifeform: right. hence http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835598 , some folx can justify to themselves the cost , then why not, pay . there are projects that asciilifeform keeps in zeroizable ram while decrypted. it's a bitch, but in some cases called for.
mircea_popescu: anyways, yes, i guess there's that, yes. but i mean whom does it cost ? the people owning the code, not you.
asciilifeform: impersonal. the folx other than mircea_popescu , whose travel lappy doesn't go in diplo pouch and guarded in hotel by squad of musketeers.
asciilifeform: hanbot: nobody cancelled 'need to know'(tm) and other traditional mechanisms of prolonging life of seekritz. but i find it worrisome that mircea_popescu seems to think that keeping coad confidential doesn't cost anything. it does cost.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 17:04 diana_coman: the overall idea is to pay authors of clients based on how much their clients are actually used
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835608 << speaking of diana_coman do you recall where the whole food / pay for server thing was announced ?
hanbot: anyway no, i don't see a way out of the "problem".
mircea_popescu: hanbot fine, but this is the dilemma : either being in l1 is practically meaningless, in which case nobody cares if they're in or out ; or else l1 is practically meaningful, in which case everybody cares whether they're in or out and consequently some might care to be in just to be in, to assuage the self-knoweldge of inadequacy.
a111: Logged on 2015-11-16 21:01 ascii_field: would let you wander off to wherever spies go when a war is over. You know why?' he said. 'No,' I said. 'Because you could never have served the enemy as well as you served us,' he said. 'I realized that almost all the ideas that I hold now, that make me unashamed of anything I may have felt or done as a Nazi, came not from Hitler, not from Goebbels, not from Himmler — but from you.' He took my hand. 'You alone kept m
asciilifeform: hanbot: of all the possible problems, i can't picture how this, enemy already has all the incentive one could wish for to 'try to work into l1'
mircea_popescu: "the house is either dirty or clean ; if dirty, it gets cleanned ; if clean, we watc htv". sure. but what's discussed here is the mechanisms of cleanning, specifically, not the general broad theory of housekeep.
hanbot: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-16#1834927 << one think i haven't seen mentioned yet is that this creates a potential security risk, inasmuch as there'd be a real incentive for bad actors to attempt working their way into l1 solely to gain access to source code.
asciilifeform: if they 'cloink' , either result is the usual unremarkable crud a la the 'fg clone' , or it is a sane production, in the latter case author gets invited here . in the former case, what exactly does it do ? afaik nuffin
mircea_popescu: yes, but this is the avenue of that!
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 19:44 mircea_popescu: windows will either compete with tmsr or go away. if it competes -- it becomes. if it goes away -- it becomes. there is no choice and there is no will.
mircea_popescu: there IS such a thing as "you're too fucking stupid and unread to participate in THIS class. go take remedial deheadshittery 101."
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 02:42 asciilifeform: 'they cloink a coupla with the sledgehammer so as to break down the find into shards the size they can fit in a pocket, after which they stick it on their oxcart'
a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 00:17 mircea_popescu: so no, in treating all comers equally they PRODUCED the problem. because if father is incapable of rejecting you there's exactly 0 incentive to anything but gabriel_laddelize/adlai/kanzure/etc all fucking day long.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-18#1835675 << what part of the 'rms problem' does vtronics per se not cure ?
mircea_popescu: basically you read words and expect they mean imperial meanings. but they fucking don't.
asciilifeform: then i've nuffin.
mircea_popescu: even windows has terminal ; even there something like hash file exists.
mircea_popescu: if it operates but poorly i suppose the argument could be brought mocky's good reputation is being stained ; however it's so damned easy to check.
mircea_popescu: if it operates mocky gets the credit.
mircea_popescu: i suppose at the furthermost it could result in 1. luser installing that ; 2. luser being displeased with shitclient performance ; 3. luser whining at mocky ; 4. mocky asking him to check his binary hash.
mircea_popescu: there's absolutely nothing breakable here, not even in principle.
mircea_popescu: i suppose he could root the box, but could have done that way the fuck easier than all this complex dance.
mircea_popescu: i mean... so mocky makes a client, i see his client works, i allocate his binaries signatures, and now evilmocky does what ? doesn't follow server comms spec ? can't connect. is smart enough to follow them, and puts the work in ? can connect, server will report expected hashes. does he distribute this thing, so user can see the hash of his program and the hash the program tells the server don't match ? suppose he does. what n
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 13:38 asciilifeform: asciilifeform's perspective is prolly coloured by his having been paid to both make and break such 'protections' in the saeculum many times.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 00:10 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835536 << such a fucking injun. how, just HOW does one get so fucking stupid. "jwz" amirite, "he only wanted to". this existence is too burdensome for the likes of special cunthead.
mircea_popescu: right, because why am i paying the same % whether i wrote a hello world on top of their allegro or an ai.
asciilifeform: i dun recall their ever asking ( beyond the traditional 'industrial/academia/usg' selector )
mircea_popescu: "well it's a different price if you intend to give her half your assets towards the end of your productive life or if you intend to make her salami"
asciilifeform: aah the ~royaltied~ (customer) product
mircea_popescu: otherwise, go ahead and make me a price on your daughter. "what do you plan on doing with her ?" "none of your damn business".
mircea_popescu: yes, but the ~product~ is not specified. if you go to supermarket and buy something, you buy ~the specified something~. it's not an issue of whether "property is specified" in the general sense.
asciilifeform: isp spec + their proprietary tack-ons were publicly specced )
a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 00:05 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835530 << i think it's a very stupid idea, and i don't mean this mildly, but stupid in a superlative way, because what is contemplated is a ~fixed price~ for an ~unspecified product~. this is EXACTLY like sootheby's selling "auction win tickets" whereby you get to win "any one auction". it;s like trying to implement lemon markets where they don't naturally exist, and it screams deep misunder
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-18#1835659 << iirc allegro was moar complicated than this, tho tbf i am unsure whether less or ~more~ scammy . it was a nonfixed price (no cost for src actually but had to 1) be existing customer and 2) sign seekricy contract ) and price of being customer in turn wasn't 'fixed' ( 'lispworks' co. iirc charged royalties ) . as for 'specified', this was 1 of the rare products where yes specified ( common l
mircea_popescu: all modern evil in the field flows from this original sin of the idiots involved, and no it shan't be passed in silence. had they done this right and equally flunked all other parts as they did flunk them, we'd still be mostly-right rather than thoroughly-broken today.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-18 00:05 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835530 << i think it's a very stupid idea, and i don't mean this mildly, but stupid in a superlative way, because what is contemplated is a ~fixed price~ for an ~unspecified product~. this is EXACTLY like sootheby's selling "auction win tickets" whereby you get to win "any one auction". it;s like trying to implement lemon markets where they don't naturally exist, and it screams deep misunder
mircea_popescu: the ~fucking reason~ "anonimity" as understood by the "cipherpunk" bla bla idiots (ie, http://trilema.com/2012/anonimity-or-the-urban-versus-rural-dispute/ item) even fucking exists is because of the whole "no identity needed to software".
mircea_popescu: so no, in treating all comers equally they PRODUCED the problem. because if father is incapable of rejecting you there's exactly 0 incentive to anything but gabriel_laddelize/adlai/kanzure/etc all fucking day long.
mircea_popescu: it is NOT FUCKING PERMISSIBLE to "love all your sons equally". fuck you, there is no such thing, that's for their dumbass mother, because she's too stupid to distinguish cocks (and btw, if your "monogamous" "wife" "loves all her children equally", time to start looking carefully at the milkmen, they contributed to that brood as a foregone conclusion.)
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 23:52 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835506 << indeed, and it is quite a wonder i'm still about, right, seeing how slave mutiny could result in my being strangled overnight and therefore it already has. this is mp coming to you loud and clear from the afterlyf ?
a111: Logged on 2017-03-29 17:15 mircea_popescu: but anyway, back to the upstream : https://archive.is/9zD8D#selection-9.3336-9.4865 the whole thing is rather damaging of bernstein's own standing and credibility. he engages in this sort of behaviours, he isn't much of a man, and certainly the sordid tale of his misbehaviour disabused me of any intention of rating him on the basis of his work.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 13:35 asciilifeform: diana_coman: asciilifeform's pov re the retardation of 'open sores' , rms et al, is that they are tards not because they throw open the coad to allcomers but because they have no concept of wot , therefore were unable to conceptualize vtronics .
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835554 >> no, here we disagree. both rms AND ers lines of socialism (called "free" and "open" source in-universe) are attempting to bake in the conclusion of socialism ("everything that ever crawled out of a cunt is sacred") while allowing you to dispute the conclusions. i am not interested in their idiotic "disputations". the issue, with BOTH approaches, quite indistinguishably, is exactly
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835536 << such a fucking injun. how, just HOW does one get so fucking stupid. "jwz" amirite, "he only wanted to". this existence is too burdensome for the likes of special cunthead.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 12:57 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835489 << note that it specifically was an example of a seekrit with strictly limited lifespan -- once there are '9000' repeaters, the need to keep the details under wraps vanishes
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835532 << yup, a very elegant item indeed. what the empire calls "embargo", essentially.
mircea_popescu: ie, it worked because a) settlers were idiots (which they weren) and b) government was spurious (which it was).
mircea_popescu: the only known usage that's defensible is eg usg selling indian's land to white settlers ; and the reason it's defensible has nothing to do with anything here considered, and everything to do with the banal observation that some men are sexually stimulated by a simulacrum of resistence put up by woman.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 12:54 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835502 << the commercial lisp people work (worked? prior to being swallowed by usg) this way. e.g. allegro.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835530 << i think it's a very stupid idea, and i don't mean this mildly, but stupid in a superlative way, because what is contemplated is a ~fixed price~ for an ~unspecified product~. this is EXACTLY like sootheby's selling "auction win tickets" whereby you get to win "any one auction". it;s like trying to implement lemon markets where they don't naturally exist, and it screams deep misunder
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 12:51 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835519 << guilfanov spent years raging at 'pirates', planting boobytraps, even implemented his infamous 'church interdict' against anyone known to employ ida 'traitors' , then still ended up selling his firm to usg.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835525 << man alone ; just because they fail at anything they try doesn't mean much. of course they do, that's precisely how we ended up with the turdsoup.
mircea_popescu: !!rate ave1 3 his lordship the lord logiciel
deedbot: mircea_popescu rated ave1 2 at 2018/05/17 04:02:57 << produced the holy grail : http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-15#1813760
mircea_popescu: because this is what subhumanity is all about : "anonimity", right, the incapacity to mean anything to anyone.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 09:53 spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-16#1835039 <-- this imho doesn't make asciilifeform an idiot, it makes user responsible for whatever setup he runs the binary on. the same guarantee would be given for hypothetical linux kernel with changed abi as for mswindows kernel. as much as the word of heathens are not to be trusted, heathen did promise e.g. https://archive.is/KD183#selection-248.64-248.65 . so imho misbehaving kernel will just be
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835516 << you don't take my meaning. the machine doesn't care about your political corectness. it only sees those people involved that are actually people. if your dog shits in my lawn im not gonna complain to dog ; and if idiot miscompiles code into a pile of shit, the machine's mute sadness will not be directed at idiot.
mircea_popescu: after all, what the fuck are we even doing here ? not like it has ~yet~ happened someone with head screwed on straight got turned away.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 09:42 spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-16#1834921 <-- I'm sold on the idea i. in particular for eulora, and ii. otherwise for it to be established on a case-by-case basis. for (i), I see nothing wrong with e.g. challenging users to reverse-engineer the client (or maybe I'm just nostalgic about game cracking/trainers).
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835511 << it's really not at all the intention to prevent smart people from improving on the client. if anyone looks even vaguely like he could reverse engineer his pocket flashlight or anything, i'm quite sure he'd find self in some sort of productive arrangement in short order.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 04:28 ave1: I find the 'if it can happen, it will happen' a strange argument. Let's say you let a friend stay in your house while you are away for a couple of months? Yes, he could destroy the house and steal the contents, still this arrangement works and has worked for many friends.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835506 << indeed, and it is quite a wonder i'm still about, right, seeing how slave mutiny could result in my being strangled overnight and therefore it already has. this is mp coming to you loud and clear from the afterlyf ?
mircea_popescu: ave1 i dunno if you've seen the republican license btw ? not like we give out ~anything~ that's "legally" usable by the pantsuit tards.
mircea_popescu: !!rate spyked 3 his lordship the lord crypto-alchemist
deedbot: mircea_popescu rated spyked 2 at 2017/08/19 17:53:59 << aka Lucian Mogosanu, arm guy and other things. e-known him for years.
deedbot: mircea_popescu rated lobbes 3 at 2017/02/08 17:11:19 << eulora logs + auction bot, and altogether a very solid lordship candidate.
BingoBoingo: And in local cardboard artwork unveilled before tomorrow's independence day: http://vivirsinmiedo.com.uy/ << The Uruguayos want a Gendarmie, More bodies in prisons, and Night Raids!!!
asciilifeform: consider how many 'insoluble' engineering problems vanish when you remove the nonsensical 'must work for 8 billion meatsacks' condition.
asciilifeform: ( observe that there is no reason why all of'em gotta answer to ~same~ l1 key. item oughta survive a defection or 2, if built correctly. )
asciilifeform: put a coupla dozen of these on each continent , and you get l1 'internet' .
asciilifeform: ( deadly simple algo : listen for packet at all times, if received one where nonce incremented and rsa sig is valid, that's now the new packet, and now it, instead of prev, gets pulsed ( http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-05#1831796 ) out )
asciilifeform: the sw repeater item, for instance, only becomes thinkable once you dispense with 'allcomers' and realize that there's no reason to forward anything not signed with l1 key, etc
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 18:54 lobbes: Lulzy "We have tested image transfers using Google's WebP format to try conserve bandwidth as much as possible, but the lack of support in several browsers has given us second thoughts."
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835618 << afaik every single pseudo-gossipd ( and counting just the ones that proceeded past vapour ) ran head first into this failure of imagination, where somehow the only worthwhile payload is general-purpose derp ip traffic incl lolcats
BingoBoingo: And was shocked mostly with the though "it"s can rate?
lobbes: Lulzy "We have tested image transfers using Google's WebP format to try conserve bandwidth as much as possible, but the lack of support in several browsers has given us second thoughts."
asciilifeform: '...We ended up with a simple protocol packet: the Lulzpacket. This simple packet contains information to verify there was no corruption during the transmission and a random code to pseudo-identify the packet. We define the addresses of nodes in the net by their ability to decrypt a given packet. Addresses are derived from the hashes of asymmetric encryption keys, Every radio node defines its own address by the pair of keys it has ge
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 17:04 diana_coman: the overall idea is to pay authors of clients based on how much their clients are actually used
lobbes: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835608 << this was a key piece I was missing as well. For some reason I thought scheme was 'lock down production of binaries so as to allow authors to work out their own pay-for-client mechanism.' Whole thing makes way more sense to me nao
diana_coman: the ~only scenario I could come up with re abusing that hash is where author of A that is less successful than known B decides somehow to distribute a doctored version of B that sends the hashes of A - it's already rather insane I'd say
diana_coman: the overall idea is to pay authors of clients based on how much their clients are actually used
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 13:36 diana_coman: it can of course dig into binaries and get the hashes from A or B and then pretend their own code IS A or B but ..so what? i.e. author of A or B will get more money, is that bad?
asciilifeform: diana_coman: the http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835553 formulation suggested 'protection mechanism', but i guess i've nfi
diana_coman: I didn't even realise there was some way to see it as protection against ...what? code copying or what?
asciilifeform: but i'll admit to being puzzled re what is the win from it.
asciilifeform: Mocky: i in fact do not have objection to it either way, it is a stylistic decision for diana_coman & mircea_popescu , not mine to make
Mocky: asciilifeform, assume for the sake of argument diana_coman said 'dun care about make use difficult, let them use whatever works', do you still have objection to that?
asciilifeform: Mocky: this is a q for diana_coman ? ( as i understand, it is meant to make the use of obsolete (currently published) client , moar difficult )
asciilifeform: Mocky: i neither develop nor play eulora, so i cannot meaningfully comment re detail
asciilifeform: Mocky: see logs; my understanding is that there's to be a scheme for rewarding authors of successful authorized clients
Mocky: can 'break' so why bother?
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 13:41 asciilifeform: diana_coman: the conundrum from my pov is that why to bother with protections if 'so what if they break, not as if it does anything'
Mocky: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835572 >> does it change your pov if the hash is no form of protection or implied protection but merely an accounting convenience. like say http 'referrer' on phuctor page links to pizarro. maybe pizarro uses referrer to track where customer comes from and if came from known ad placement then counts customer for that ad. is referrer string now promisatronic protection since anyone
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i gotta say, not very informative piece, either link or paste etc these 'reports' ?
diana_coman: you'd probably still bother with an anti-teleport device although that one will also have some way of being broken
asciilifeform: if thieves could teleport, i prolly would not bother.
diana_coman: because I seriously doubt that it can't be broken so why do you bother locking it?
asciilifeform: diana_coman: the conundrum from my pov is that why to bother with protections if 'so what if they break, not as if it does anything'
diana_coman: I think you take those hashes to be an absolute promise of something; they are not; they are what they are (a mechanism, not an amulet!) and clearly stated; nobody pretends anything
asciilifeform: they are breakable by just about anybody with basic education without breaking much of a sweat
diana_coman: sure, but after they break it, what do they do with it that is a. not useful to tmsr b. downright problematic
asciilifeform: diana_coman: right, but point was the futility of promisetronic 'protections'
asciilifeform: diana_coman: some folx are 'griefers' , neh, they will break just to break.
diana_coman: put a different way: they are intelligent enough to have the option of earning money honestly and realise the risks of being dishonest are greater than they are worth
diana_coman: rather than futzing about for pennies with that
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's perspective is prolly coloured by his having been paid to both make and break such 'protections' in the saeculum many times.
diana_coman: the assumption there is that someone who is able to get the hash out and change it in his own client is intelligent enough to actually earn money off his own work
diana_coman: it's one level up in the hurdle game
asciilifeform: the hashes thing strikes me as promisetronic, it is already 'honour system', why not simply identify the client by name, same effect.
diana_coman: it can of course dig into binaries and get the hashes from A or B and then pretend their own code IS A or B but ..so what? i.e. author of A or B will get more money, is that bad?
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 02:19 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ( admittedly i haven't read the referenced item ) what's to stop client from sending to server the old hashes ?
asciilifeform: diana_coman: asciilifeform's pov re the retardation of 'open sores' , rms et al, is that they are tards not because they throw open the coad to allcomers but because they have no concept of wot , therefore were unable to conceptualize vtronics .
diana_coman: perhaps a more fleshed out exercise: say there are clients A and B that have binaries released and accepted by Eulora's server (as per known hashes) ; sources of those are released to l1
diana_coman: asciilifeform, I keep getting the impression that you focus in turn on one or another aspect but not quite on the whole; I'm a bit at a loss to point out exactly where it breaks though
asciilifeform: but imho this is a decision intimately for the folx who actually wrote the thing ( diana_coman , mircea_popescu ) , i've no skin in the game
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 02:36 asciilifeform: monkey had ak for quite a while -- e.g. the openly published fg design; but apparently monkey has atrociously poor aim
asciilifeform: precisely nothing ( per http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835408 thread ) . hence asciilifeform's 'why bother'
asciilifeform: diana_coman: i don't see any problem with eulora making its src members-only ( whether l1 or the 2 people who actually work on it etc ) but will admit that i still don't see what it adds, other than ceremonially. the monkey herd can still plagiarize the existing published src .
spyked: aha, question is strictly when (next month, year or decade), not if. and even if abi remains stable, /me expects something along the lines of "linux kernel 6.3 only compiles with gcc >17" around the corner.
asciilifeform: at that point the 'free ride' will end and we'll be stuck maintaining a kernel.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 03:19 mod6: I'm saying in the instance of inquisition. I don't think there is any way to separate a willful liar from someone who lost control of their key.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835489 << note that it specifically was an example of a seekrit with strictly limited lifespan -- once there are '9000' repeaters, the need to keep the details under wraps vanishes
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 03:47 mod6: Maybe a "developer license" isn't a bad idea either. Could raise some capital, and constrain the source code to those who promise not to share it and who want/need it.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835502 << the commercial lisp people work (worked? prior to being swallowed by usg) this way. e.g. allegro.
asciilifeform: this is not an argument for or against selling soft, but rather a data point.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 09:58 spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835450 <-- how about http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-22#1455082 though? still very much subject to w4r3z, sure, but otherwise didn't end in tears.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835519 << guilfanov spent years raging at 'pirates', planting boobytraps, even implemented his infamous 'church interdict' against anyone known to employ ida 'traitors' , then still ended up selling his firm to usg.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 03:00 asciilifeform: Mocky: i grasp the argument, but must point out that all attempts to date to cudgel people into paying for software, have ended in tears ( usually for the cudgel-wielder )
spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835450 <-- how about http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-22#1455082 though? still very much subject to w4r3z, sure, but otherwise didn't end in tears.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 16:28 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: releasing binaries does not create this guarantee. even static elf, when put on a box where linus et al (or his successor) see it fit to subtly change the abi, will bomb, and not necessarily immediately. and i'ma still 'be idiot'
spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-16#1835039 <-- this imho doesn't make asciilifeform an idiot, it makes user responsible for whatever setup he runs the binary on. the same guarantee would be given for hypothetical linux kernel with changed abi as for mswindows kernel. as much as the word of heathens are not to be trusted, heathen did promise e.g. https://archive.is/KD183#selection-248.64-248.65 . so imho misbehaving kernel will just be
a111: Logged on 2018-07-17 02:13 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i thought of 1 far-conveyor item where i actually had it in my notes 'to be for l1 encyclical only' -- the shortwave repeater
a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 15:44 mircea_popescu: the evident disadvantage is that this only works if we can rely on l1 to keep a secret ; which means things (such as, that it can't be as big, for instance).
spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-16#1834926 <-- and yet, despite the disadvantage, it seems there may be items such as http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835358 that are both big and l1-only, despite the risk involved. hence my (ii) above.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 15:44 mircea_popescu: as we're contemplating an eulora client rewrite, i am contemplating the following code release paradigm : client author a) releases code encrypted to l1, signed and deeded (so basically, gpg -aer asciilifeform -r ave1 -r etc) ; b) releases precompiled binaries for allcomers.
spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-16#1834921 <-- I'm sold on the idea i. in particular for eulora, and ii. otherwise for it to be established on a case-by-case basis. for (i), I see nothing wrong with e.g. challenging users to reverse-engineer the client (or maybe I'm just nostalgic about game cracking/trainers).
lobbesbot: lobbes: The operation succeeded.
ave1: And the whole thing affirms the power/status of the Lords. I.E. when an author goes against a Lords wishes or AWOL it is then in the power of that Lord to contact another author and give him the source etc.
ave1: I like it (I thinks it's paramount) that the republic is exclusive and not inclusive . (It then means something if you are included)
ave1: I find the 'if it can happen, it will happen' a strange argument. Let's say you let a friend stay in your house while you are away for a couple of months? Yes, he could destroy the house and steal the contents, still this arrangement works and has worked for many friends.
ave1: Third, it is not about who leaked it (I do not care about that much). It's about trust and if L1 does not trust each other, then what?
a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 15:44 mircea_popescu: as we're contemplating an eulora client rewrite, i am contemplating the following code release paradigm : client author a) releases code encrypted to l1, signed and deeded (so basically, gpg -aer asciilifeform -r ave1 -r etc) ; b) releases precompiled binaries for allcomers.
ave1: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-16#1834921, ack. I think it's a brilliant idea. Especially, points (2) and (3) and I'm not worried about the "keeping a secret" parts. First, I've worked for companies with an extensive secret code base (and this code is and has been secret for a long time > 30 years) . Second, all leaked sources are "illegal" anyway (as in this source was not sanctioned, so it's worthless).
mod6: Maybe a "developer license" isn't a bad idea either. Could raise some capital, and constrain the source code to those who promise not to share it and who want/need it.
Mocky: or maybe not. i still have software from the 90's that I use on a daily basis, install straight from orig 90's cd
Mocky: if there turns out competition between clients, maybe i want to do something to get more market share
mircea_popescu: and are already lining up for the 9th version of vin diesel being retarded from profile.
mircea_popescu: or i dunno, maybe you're the one guy who thinks need for speed only finally nailed the plot on installment 8.
Mocky: seems theres a general level of good enough, that's rarely hit first release
mircea_popescu: anyway, it's altogether doubtful that this naive model of imperial "progress" ever applied to software. i don't expect lcients to become ever better over time.
mircea_popescu: people fuck more girls they find in their bed spread eagled than girls they have to say hello to.
mircea_popescu: Mocky well in thsi case, because the barrier to entry is a major destroyer of interest. maybe if he can read at cost 0 he reads and if he can read at cost epsilon, he doesn't.
mircea_popescu: yeah but i mean... i dunno, sometimes i feel like i'm the only one who was ever 12. so you're at camp, and someone spread toothpaste on the teacher's moustache while he slept. so ?
Mocky: i don't see it as a problem for the client writer. to the contrary i would expect clients to get regular updates and older versions less useful relatively over time. but maybe asciilifeform doesn't care about eulora at all, why involve when only possible involvement 'suspected of leak'?
mod6: I'm saying in the instance of inquisition. I don't think there is any way to separate a willful liar from someone who lost control of their key.
mircea_popescu: if your lunch were gone from your brown paper bag you wouldn't suspect me, you'd suspect someone who worked there. and ?
mircea_popescu: mod6 why would they have to ask anyone anything ? Mocky so you'd suspect. and ?
Mocky: there's no way toknow, obviously. but if i wrote a client under this l1 confidence model, and it leaked not by me, i would suspect someone in l1... who else?
mod6: well, any defendant of such an accusation would have to ask Lordship to /believe/ they didn't do it; not sure how they would ask Lordship to /verify/ they are telling the truth.
Mocky: if in the case of a confirmed leak, pointed questions could be asked even of those who never so much as looked at it. and i'm not saying answering questions is a big burden, but alternately not being suspected in the first place could be considered a benefit
Mocky: this makes sense to me. the only thing i have against it is asciilifeform and mod6 argument about the burden of keeping secrets. while I don't see the proposed method as actually burdensome, i see the argument in the general case
Mocky: asciilifeform, i dont' even see it as an issue of paying for software: the paying or not doesn't need to differ from the case where minigame writes the official client
mod6: I figured, can't really help it with the old client. Was thinking maybe there is a new one in the works with some stuff that need not be open sores.
mircea_popescu: well, there's obviously a published server protocol, as well as the old client... these don't constitute ?
mod6: What if, you gave out the S.MG binary client, and along with it, an example client. Void of code that you would consider "trade secrets". This way people can use the example to get their own off the ground with the most minimal information required to do so?
mircea_popescu: lobbes consider the obvious example -- people will pay (but ~a few ecu~ sorta thing) to merely ~use~ an auction bot. they could just do that by fucking hand, what's to keep them.
mircea_popescu: notice that ~even today~ there's solid market in "music cds". if you want i can photograph the people outside trying to sell their shiny "extrenos"
mircea_popescu: it is however not the customer's problem that the fair price point for borland whatever is 0.0006 except borland can';t chage that because must be 9.95 or else visa monopoly throws a fit.
lobbes: I could see someone creating a 'ecu casino' for the 'masses' indeed
asciilifeform: Mocky: i grasp the argument, but must point out that all attempts to date to cudgel people into paying for software, have ended in tears ( usually for the cudgel-wielder )
lobbes: imo, the bar to actually 'playing eulora' is above that of monkey anyway (at least -right now- unless someone figures out the 'monetize the fetlife girls angle for eulora)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform note i'm not forbidding anyone from ~publishing~ their client.
Mocky: my understanding is minigame wants there to be 3rd party clients, but would want access to the src and be assured binary matches src. but if src fully available then good client gets forked so what incentive to write client?
mod6: it does work this way ^, must have key registered with the server to even log in.
asciilifeform: and the lack of reliance on magic/closed client is imho powerfully illustrative of the diff b/w eulora and heathen 'warcrafts'
asciilifeform: admittedly asciilifeform is not a eulorist, but i had a very positive picture of it as -- including other things -- a kindergarten teaching tool for 'fuck people but do biznis with keys' , 'pubkey is the soul', etc
mircea_popescu: no argument there.
asciilifeform: my point was that if he's a monkey and can't or won't conceptualize the diff, he will play obamalora no matter what
mircea_popescu: they're all playing obamalora as it is anyway.
asciilifeform: of the client bin; and of the server ip (or how does player know that he is playing eulora and not obamalora )
mircea_popescu: well ok, so then what pgp signatures.
mircea_popescu: however, at the most basic level, literature must remain enjoyable for the barely literate.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 17:44 mircea_popescu: Mocky http://trilema.com/2014/the-hour-of-reckoning/
mircea_popescu: that's the whole fucking point. not just of writing games, but of storytelling altogether, as a whole discipline reaching all the way to the core of substance. people's enjoyment of reading say http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-16#1835256 might be ~enhanced~ by a secure mastery of the writer's craft
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not at all. people should be able to play a fucking game without necessarily understanding how the actual code works.
asciilifeform: unless, again, i misread , what's contemplated is to somehow make 'fetlife female morons' who won't pgp and won't drop winblowz etc use an authenticated piece of soft, somehow ( something that e.g. banks have not been able to accomplish )
a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 17:43 diana_coman: there's the golden goose too! and for that matter there was that "pay the oracle to give you answers" event for all the good it did
asciilifeform: folx who are so 'confusable' that they cannot be persuaded, by carrot or stick, to at the very least check a pgp sig , are beyond redemption
mod6: Anyway Gentlemen, I think that currently this comes down to: 1) "How much do I trust the man standing next to me?" and 2) What are the consequences should others betray and leak my valuable assets?
asciilifeform: possibly this is the root of disagreement -- asciilifeform takes mircea_popescu's old warning of 'just say no to any dealings with the malignantly stupid poor'(tm)(r) to heart, doesn't deal with the '50%', doesn't need them for anything whatsoever
mircea_popescu: because they're fucked in the head, and literally can not distinguish anything from anythning else.
mircea_popescu: and think in terms of confusable ~by whom~. as far as 50% or so of fetlife female moron population is concerned, they have "a master" or whatever in that vein.
mircea_popescu: yes, well, ideally this should be kept at a minimum. both the kloinking and the sharding.
asciilifeform: i've yet to encounter the case where the result was in some way confusable with the original
asciilifeform: 'they cloink a coupla with the sledgehammer so as to break down the find into shards the size they can fit in a pocket, after which they stick it on their oxcart'
asciilifeform: the behaviour of the congentially-sad when encountering 'fixed' item is summarized in http://trilema.com/2014/what-happens-when-you-add-a-drop-of-sewage-to-a-bottle-of-fine-wine/#selection-175.0-179.465
mircea_popescu: what do you mean other than.
asciilifeform: sorta why i invoked fg as example -- recently i noticed a heathen who lifted the analogue scheme , but could not resist gluing it to the usual heathen whitener , because how could he resist.