asciilifeform: trinque: possibly i'm thick, but how come they can turn out to differ at all b/w 2 installs ? does it munge'em at install time programmatically somehow ?
trinque: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/OJFYM/?raw=true << I'll take to it with fresher eyes, but it looks like on diana_coman's end symlinks are being dereferenced, or something in that vicinity. that appears to be the only class of difference.
trinque: divergence is entirely within the profile dir, no ebuild differences, so that's a very encouraging result
asciilifeform: if you want to do , e.g., 4096bit rsa, needs iron with at least 256kB of ram . and 2 serial ports, 1 on which to hang FG, other for operator i/o. that's moar or less it, in re minimal iron req'd.
trinque: diana_coman: I've got the diff between my cuntoo genesis.vpatch and yours chewed down to human size (about 900 lines). getting closer
asciilifeform: ( this means that e.g. http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-06#1832315 theoretically suffices for 'os' on which can run ffacalc. )
asciilifeform: for ffa , the only os knobs you need are 1) a means for getting commandline string 2) equiv. of putchar 3) equiv. of getchar 4) a means to read bytes from a FG .
asciilifeform: refer to ave1's asmistic-i/o (no-libc-of-any-kind) demo, for these.
asciilifeform: i also have not tried on (traditional, rather than crapplistic) bsd.
asciilifeform: incidentally, even old-fashioned barbaric adacorpse gnat was well-behaved re '-static' flag -- there's an os that dun even support static link (crapple) and it will properly barf there, rather than silently build dynamic ( incidentally can still build a runnable ffa there, fwiw, in debug mode -- see readme.txt )
asciilifeform: ( in the case of x64 and arm64 both. )
asciilifeform: afaik the only successful builds to date were on trad/barbaric gentoos , on top of which sat adacorpse-gnat '16.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-03 01:24 mircea_popescu: whether it actually ~is~ static in any dependable sense across platforms etc, still somewhat of a matter under investigation, fwiu ?\
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-03#1891970 << afaik built to date on 2 platforms total ( if anyone did a 3rd, not yet reported in the l0gz ) -- x64 and arm64. both replicated in asciilifeform's torture room, the former in regular use . thing builds strictly static+musltronic bins, it aint even knob-adjustable (which is as it oughta be imho) .
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Still eating it and the glory of the rest of the world catching up to Branch Rickey
mircea_popescu: quite makes the whole thing.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo did you get as far as where he ~reveals~ the sauce for the "go at it the right way" device ?
mircea_popescu: quite. if there is any writing that has a shot at that "great american novel title", it'd be l.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-02 19:24 mircea_popescu: in fact, the ur-murican would be this fellow : https://www.gutenberg.org/files/52670/52670-h/52670-h.htm
BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-02#1891823 How have I not read this before! Real America near the end of the Great!
mircea_popescu: whether it actually ~is~ static in any dependable sense across platforms etc, still somewhat of a matter under investigation, fwiu ?\
feedbot: http://bimbo.club/2019/02/philosophical-transactions-for-the-months-of-june-july-and-august-1715-part-vi/ << Bimbo.Club -- Philosophical Transactions. For the months of June, July and August, 1715. - Part V(I).
asciilifeform: or hm, also possib that they filmed it with old nokia
mircea_popescu: alrighty then.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: reichs are among the moar long-lasting worx of man. but do wear out. ( exactly how and why, is q above my pay grade, but seems rather obv that they do in fact wear out )
BingoBoingo: In other news, beaches occupied by crowds offering gifts to African sea gods
mircea_popescu: so then what is it you're saying here ?
asciilifeform: and they dun strictly ~have~ to die because 'heir is boy who cant keep household in order'. ivan iii, say, clubbed his only heir (+ his pregnant wife) to death with iron stick, worked just as well to end that dynasty as effete faggotry would've
asciilifeform: i'm entirely willing to believe tho that this is the 400th and ~last yr of that dynasty
mircea_popescu: im sure it's somewhere in the archives, if you must ima have it fished out
asciilifeform: oh ha i did not see the vid
mircea_popescu: there was a video included, which is why we discuss the panties-on-topless wife rather than quotes from whatever anglotard.
mircea_popescu: doesn't it strike ytou as way the fuck easier to lop some bits of fabric off a hip, than some heads off ?
mircea_popescu: irrespective of blather as to how "he doesn'\t want to" or "his mother is too old for lashing" or anything else.
asciilifeform: btw last i knew, anyone peddling this story inside border of thailand is subj to heads-off, and they still enforce, despite whine from washington
mircea_popescu: same exact fucking reason i think very little of the shah of brunei. thre's a word for the man who can't keep his household in line, and that word is "boy"
asciilifeform: nao how would i know whether trooly 'poorly regarded' or pantsuit libel.
mircea_popescu: why schmuck ? i dunno, cuz multiple topless women, some of which crying, in my very kitchen. nor do the pantsuit fucking dare mention my highness by name or anything ?
a111: Logged on 2016-08-02 16:13 mircea_popescu: phf allow me to quote to you from modern tolkien : "The heir apparent, Crown Prince Maha Vajiralongkorn, is poorly regarded in Thailand and the succession has clouded the brows of not only the Thai political elite, but the Thai people, who believe a period of substantial instability will follow the King's death"
mircea_popescu: which other ?
asciilifeform: why this king 'idle schmuck' but other - not ?
mircea_popescu: you mean the idle schmuck that had a topless wife for an occasion once and they all threw a ridoinculous fit ?
mircea_popescu: yes but this also chisels your stand on existence all the way into nothingness.
asciilifeform: did not thereby become immortal.
asciilifeform: there was an (oxford, incidentally, iirc) prof, who willed his corpse to be stuffed , so could continue to 'attend' meetings
mircea_popescu: what, the idea's habsburgs disappeared really whereas oxford mystically and thus all the same disappeared ?
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-02#1891883 << sure does ! ( if mircea_popescu's oxford segment is supposed to support the 'not all ! institutions decay like old stump', i'm not seein' it, seems to support exactly opposite angle.. )
asciilifeform: ( as if ~any~ db belonging to a usg.corp were or could be anyffin other than a usg.db )
asciilifeform: funnily enuff, this one is (standing next to the others) ~honest~ : immediately admits 'we're usg front an' proud, heil clitler' vs the competing shops who pretend, thinly , to somehow not
a111: Logged on 2019-01-30 01:02 asciilifeform: 'ru-ar' d00d described 'month -- euphoria, then reality sets in when so happens you want a faucet fixed, or tooth capped, or to buy power brick for lappy' etc
mircea_popescu: now how's this twerp better, or for that matter distinct or distinguishable, from the celebrated http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-30#1890666
mircea_popescu: "CEO Bennett Greenspan claims his desire to [...] live out his fantasy of being Batman without the risk of getting punched" << oh, but how aptly put!
a111: Logged on 2019-02-02 17:18 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it's not like the republic is ~avoidable~.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile also dug out the trilema re http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-02#1891554 : http://trilema.com/2014/between-the-hammer-and-the-anvil/
mircea_popescu: (this is engineered to count as an insult, because supposedly, or at least by the lights of deeply inept femtards a la virgina woolfe, this guy "hated women" because wasn't sufficiently something or the other ; and so proposing that women'd benefit off his book is like, totally, oh noes.)
mircea_popescu: of the latter, same fond of idiocy offers a restatement of an gallingly anonymous "If the reader is not particular about grammar and style, and is judiciously suspicious of dates, he, or more likely she, will derive both amusement and profit from Mr Browning's pages"
mircea_popescu: of the former, wikipedia says "He took much interest in sport at Eton, and the high standard of rowing which the Eton eights attained was due in a large measure to his coaching. His 45 years' connexion with Eton thoroughly identified him with its traditions and ideals, and, without being remarkable either as a scholar or as a teacher, he wielded a personal influence which has seldom been surpassed. "
mircea_popescu: edmond warre (a man of absolutely no accomplishment, either intellectual or social, but merely an avid ~rowsman~, am activity the deeply ~coerced~ atmosphere at oxford "respected", much in the way sovoks "respected" marx) met pesonally (and sacked) oscar browning (a man of arguably the greatest intellectual, scholarly, and undoubtedly social accomplishment oxford of his time -- and perhaps in all time ever -- knew).
a111: Logged on 2019-02-02 18:23 asciilifeform: let's hear about the excluded counters ? e.g. is there a dynasty still going somewhere for 1000y that never enhabsburgated into idiocy ?
mircea_popescu: speaking of http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-02#1891694 : consider the history of oxford (a place that claims continuity, however ludicrous on the face that claim may be), pre [the latest iteration of] http://trilema.com/2018/wood-impregnated-in-oil-a-metaphor/
trinque: if that's correct, the ebuild for same is going to need to be able to bootstrap with whomever's own external gnat.
trinque: asciilifeform: looks like ave1's script will bootstrap for you with a downloaded gnat, but the downloaded gnat wants to live on a glibc system. happily building on such.
asciilifeform: the overall theme being, the exact spatial footprint is known at revv-up, ergo no heapisms.
asciilifeform: (both stack and regs are as wide as the set width, which can be again anyffin you want that fits on yer iron)
asciilifeform: ^ there are registers, and exactly 20 of'em, cuz that's how many lowercase letters there are that aint a-f.
pehbot: asciilifeform: EGGOG: Pos: 4: There is no Register 'f' !
asciilifeform: if you ever end up putting it on a cray, you change the constant knob & rebuild, is all
diana_coman: that's pretty much the crux of it: "infinite" comes with cost of heapism baked in, no choice
mircea_popescu: didn't seem controversial to me either ; but still, now it's also published.
mircea_popescu: the whole point being, that if you use threading properly, which is to say -- to implement workers which eat from a queue -- then you will ahve to ~somehow count therm~. that count can be either static or dynamic, and it seems the case that dynamic count's a losing proposition.
diana_coman: asciilifeform, it IS stock ada tasks, sure; it's not that the q
mircea_popescu: this is re the server.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i've worked on boxen with 128+ addressable cpu corez, but i dun expect eulora will find itself on these with any frequency
mircea_popescu: this is much cheaper to maintain, code-wise, than some attempt at an otherwise useless "infinity" ; and in the situation where software's not really expected to work "by itself", ie, will always have someone in charge, the cost of "well, if situations change, alter the value and recompile" doesn't seem an overwhelming cost.
mircea_popescu: now, it seems to me the case that since there's little benefit in having more threads than cores, it is perfectly acceptable (in this situation) to hold these in an array set as to whatever maximum is reasonable. 32 or 64 or whatever count.
asciilifeform: hm interesting, i thought mircea_popescu et al were using the stock ada tasks thing
mircea_popescu: this is of general interest as i don't expect eulora to be the last republican item with threads in it.
mircea_popescu: since we're doing adaisms : it came before the minigame board that we have to make some specific decisions re the threading model.
asciilifeform: it does, but you gotta get the binary one by hand 1st
mircea_popescu: well, so maybe you enjoy it then.
mircea_popescu: in fact, the ur-murican would be this fellow : https://www.gutenberg.org/files/52670/52670-h/52670-h.htm
mircea_popescu: thus therefore, venetians long after "enhabsburgated" nevertheless nation, because venetian whores won in the bedroom the "war" charles' soldiers "won" on the field.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> if you redefine all words to mean simply "i love you", you will "live" in the most loving world imaginable. << 2019 is shaping up to be A+++ year for logs
mircea_popescu: in any case, besides this distinction, i don't see any way to meaningfully divide people at the scale here contemplated.
a111: Logged on 2018-12-20 15:46 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform on meditation, that piece makes it plainly evident redditardation is ~generational~, not ideological. there sit the russki kids, who'd be in a fine position to understand the problem. god knows they have much better access to much better priors that readily illuminate it.
a111: Logged on 2018-12-11 17:35 mircea_popescu: russkis understood what it is they;'re copying and why. chinese -- neve rdid. in this sense, chinese copied nuke like russians copied ics.
mircea_popescu: but anyway, this a-b dispute is the exact substance of distinctions like http://btcbase.org/log/2018-12-11#1879651 ; but that was then, by now... http://btcbase.org/log/2018-12-20#1882391
asciilifeform: they went full bore 'whore strat' in 1800s.
asciilifeform: i'm not even sure which of the 2 boxes one would put jp in -- they copied eurostan to the point that hirohito wore ~same clothes as mircea_popescu is wearing nao
mircea_popescu: confronted with the unfatomable depths of male diversity (as promised to be unfathomable by http://trilema.com/2017/the-boundless-burden/#selection-195.0-195.18 ), the female herd (and it is always a herd) has precisely two possible avenues open to it : either a) http://trilema.com/2013/whore-strat/ or else b) http://trilema.com/2016/brexit-grexit-departugal-italeave-czechout-finish-oustria-latervia-byegium/#footnote_2_67054
asciilifeform: didn't. instead conquered ~all of asia, captured the iron, molybdenum, petro, whole fucking periodic table that dun grow in jp, and nearly put an end to the brit pantsuit zombie, by pretty close score
asciilifeform: could have instead, i suppose, said 'eh, asteroid' and laid down in ditch to die. but they didnt.
mircea_popescu: but, back to the problem, i dunno why i should credit chinese history more than i credit any other imaginary characters history. there's a history of desdemona, you know, as "brought to life" by various gals over the ages and the stages.
mircea_popescu: so, to bring it back to the chinos : "they agree it serves them right", of course, of course. do you know why ? because they've seen the adults do it.
mircea_popescu: this is the "economic cycle", and it's been playing out since 1800, ie, since these schmuckls got together in a burg and read newspapers.
mircea_popescu: and also privately agree they'll personally be damned if they forward this inhumane and anti-business aggenda "of other [unknown, now] morons".
mircea_popescu: at which juncture, all teh merchants in the burg ~publicly~ agree it's a bad thing (in general, mind you!) for anything to get in the way of business and therefore clothing the poor naked whores and feeding candy to their crying spawn ;
mircea_popescu: then nature resumes its course, and guess what ? c) turns out to be costly, and getting in the way of business!
mircea_popescu: generally this takes the refinment of "more general", just for good measure. cuz they're not a bunch of morons, see. women and children and everyone else do well to follow their wise lead!
mircea_popescu: so, whenever some unpleasant shit happens, such as the merchant fleet stepping on a rake, all the merchants in the burg agree : a) that nobody could have predicted it ; thus therefore b) that, individually and personally, none of them could possibly be blamed ; and thus c) some agreement should be made to in the future avoid such unplesantries.
asciilifeform: i suspect that if the zulu had lived on, through sheer numeric bulk, and caught up to building own maxim mg, they would also have 'national humiliation day' holiday.
mircea_popescu: "this train is too loud and it priviledges the speed of sound over other speeds much more important to us" ~cixi, 1800s.
mircea_popescu: serves them right, "empress" holy shit.
asciilifeform: ( they have even a 'national humiliation day' as holiday, commemorating defeat in opium war )
mircea_popescu: seems to me "china" as the mythical beast went to join "egypt". yeah, sure, used to be tall men with elegant noses that invented mapmaking.
asciilifeform: ftr they agree
asciilifeform: ( incidentally, asciilifeform thinks of 'the chinese' in ~past tense~, afaik the current inhabitants are a continuation of euro thinking, rather than the folx who spun in circles in xyz b.c. )
mircea_popescu: if you redefine all words to mean simply "i love you", you will "live" in the most loving world imaginable.
mircea_popescu: no, i'm just saying the expression is ~constructed~ so as to ~by itself~ provide the universality.
asciilifeform: they also have a word for latrine, big fat deal ( or mircea_popescu would contend that 'king who fails to pass his regular kinging litmus' aint a universal item ? )
mircea_popescu: mno, they'd be "oh, rose is bush because in this poem they're used interchangeably".
asciilifeform: the chinese, as i understand, would have sided with mircea_popescu : 'eh get out, you can't model this'
mircea_popescu: this is the fundamental chinese approach, "oh, x=y" randomly everywhere.
mircea_popescu: what, just because you use the same word ?
mircea_popescu: that'd depend on the context, now wouldn't it.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i dunno, when old woman breaks hip, was it the 40y of osteoporosis, or the bathtub that broke it ?
asciilifeform: incidentally, the very same chinese had a term for this, 'lost mandate of heaven'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so then, british empire was "enhabsburgated" because albert the dick ornament clearly too dumb to tie own shoes ? or was it asteroided, seeing how, well, the germans fucked them.
mircea_popescu: you specifically abdicate, in the exact sense of http://trilema.com/2018/yes-bitch-i-would-bring-it/
asciilifeform: that was sorta how nick the 2nd abdicated, neh
mircea_popescu: cuz what the fuck do you do, when "dude, get the fuck out, i was there, IF IT HAPPENED I WOULD HAVE SEEN IT" doesn't come out ?
mircea_popescu: guy liked playing bacarrat. guy was present at a table. others (wjho didn't like, and didn't play) picked a cheater. king... ABDICATED
mircea_popescu: this was future king going "five twerps in me enturage agreed SO THERE WAS NOTHING I COULD DO" in court of law.
mircea_popescu: anyway, it's deeply untrue "kind had trouble tying own shoes". the habsburg empire (to this date a model for wanna-bes, from bahamas' crowd to merkel etc) ended very much by bombsteroid dropping. but other than that, the last emperor franz as the last emperor albert-edward had a lot in common : very socialist outset.
mircea_popescu: sure, if we're doing the romans dun seem to fit. but we were doing " still waitin' for the counterexample"
asciilifeform: if we're doing the romans, dun seem to fit ( rome pushed back 10e19 orcs for 400+ yrs, ~then~ started to lose air from tyres )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform demographic breakdown is what happened the first time europe nearly got wiped. "oh, you have towns and writing ? cute, here's 10e19 orcs from middle earth."
mircea_popescu: seems to me that if i take a flamethrower to a beehive or if the queen bee just fucking dies one morning you'd have DIFFERENT situations. not even then ?
asciilifeform: for that matter, how is zulu's failure to invent the mg to shoot back at brits with, not 'demographic breakdown'
asciilifeform: there's a contiguous functioning throne in armenia ?! or venice??
a111: Logged on 2019-02-02 18:25 mircea_popescu: consider the armenians ; or the venetians. both encountered the exact same problem (not invented by them, either) : bad demographic breakdown. do you know for a fact the machined-down zulus had "enhabsburgated" ? there is such thing as "cut down in prime", why not.
mircea_popescu: in fact, hussein bahamas could wake up tomorrow ~and no longer be~ socialist. for the simplest of reasons -- no longer meeting teh definition. whereas...
asciilifeform: still waitin' for the counterexample, of dynasty somewhere that didn't eventually have its arse handed to it by outsiders
mircea_popescu: i don't fucking posit, "oh, they were all people, and here's how peopledom goes, on basis of this example i misrecollect"
asciilifeform: how is it that mircea_popescu can discuss 'the socialists' but not say 'which ones', lenin, gorby, or obummer
mircea_popescu: gimme a break, just because an (unrelated) demented fellow built some great palaces and schonnbrun is well painted dun make some sort of answer to the questions of life.
mircea_popescu: but "the habsburgs" aren't a fucking item. who, which ? die kaisrin, habsburg ? her mother ? her eldest sister ? her eldest brother ?
mircea_popescu: nothing wrong with "the model", especially if you have no intention of being historian nor any serious interest in history.
mircea_popescu: it's the sort of understanding of history of the sort of people who'd rather be done with it than anything else.
asciilifeform: possibly not, but imho unless we find that they parachuted from mars, null hypothesis is that they're roughly similar
mircea_popescu: i do not believe "the grand truths" of european descent have much import outside of a world seen through european eyes
mircea_popescu: i am unpersuaded "man" as such is the "transnational" universal socialists want it to be.
asciilifeform: and iirc contention was 'earlier men as model for laters' rather than 'man as model for stars'
mircea_popescu: "even the study of math, mp, note you i said the study not the object studied, flourishes and dies as described by my model!"
mircea_popescu: so man is this bipedal animal without feathers and with flat nails who's historical existence is the model for all things, stars, continents, societies and any other ideal object ?
asciilifeform: 'you say multiplication on integers commutes, but whata load of rubbish, somewhere in resplenduminous-land betcha there's 2 where it doesn't' ?
mircea_popescu: no dood. fails to distinguish as in, fails to distinguish. the partition it enacts upon the world is into two sets : the set of the items you invited over to play tea time with, and the set of the items you didn't [yet] so invite.
asciilifeform: possibly i'm thick, but i read 'fails to distinguish' as 'tautological', i.e. you can flip the bits and get equally 'good bedtime' model
mircea_popescu: you can't "give examples" as to the welfare of chickens by "accidentally having happened to pick" only cows.
mircea_popescu: the hotpants discussion was when you were trying to pass me chickens for cows.
mircea_popescu: the discussion went "oh, you're saying it tells you nothing actionable ?" "no, i'm saying it doesn't distinguish anything" "oh, so you're saying it tells you nothing actionable"
a111: Logged on 2019-02-02 18:18 mircea_popescu: there's no objective truth'll get you into a girl's hotpants. you realise this ?
asciilifeform: well for instance, i'm getting to hear a 'this model may be good bedtime story, and sorta hangs together, but ultimately tells you nuffin actionable' from the (apparently) last fella who runs freud model
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform how are the chairs reversed ?
asciilifeform: oh hey are we replaying the 'guts' thread with switched chairs ?
mircea_popescu: at which you'll say that "sure, the model of life includes this also" and i'll congratulate you on your great model and move on.
mircea_popescu: consider the armenians ; or the venetians. both encountered the exact same problem (not invented by them, either) : bad demographic breakdown. do you know for a fact the machined-down zulus had "enhabsburgated" ? there is such thing as "cut down in prime", why not.
asciilifeform: i can picture mircea_popescu , living in the time of harvey , 'yer model of blood circulation is nonsense, you say erryone has veins, arteries, heart, but for all you know the cynocephali in africa dun have any such thing'
asciilifeform: let's hear about the excluded counters ? e.g. is there a dynasty still going somewhere for 1000y that never enhabsburgated into idiocy ?
mircea_popescu: the objection is that in being an universally arguable, it therefore is an universal waste of time.
mircea_popescu: objection was that it doesn't distinguish between anything and anything, not moreso than, at the most, between "the set of things about which i could be arsed to think the five minues that;d produce support for it and the set of things i wasn't yet so arsed"
mircea_popescu: you understand this, if i and you are florentines, and you teach me the facts of life, there's a very fundamental difference between "a. get boat ; b. use lodestone, navigate ; c. find curio ; d. bring back home. e. trade for lots of dough and good things, including a desdemona ; f. strangle her for being a whore" whether i say "i don't know this lodestone model be worth my time" or i say "i dunno this strangling be worth my
asciilifeform: the only 1 i had in mind in thrd was 'civilizations build up & then collapse', which is closest thing i know of to 'models of society' with any support whatsoever
mircea_popescu: yes, but you were adressing it by yourself in the closet.
mircea_popescu: there's no objective truth'll get you into a girl's hotpants. you realise this ?
asciilifeform: why not the typical example, where romans 'hey, phunphakt, some rocks emit flammable black piss'
asciilifeform: whether 'is this model worth my time' is q that only you can answr for self. to many folx, euler's model of distribution of primes 'aint worth time', to others -- worth
asciilifeform: ( for n00bz : nobody has ever measured a movement of a continental plate directly, and nobody will. but it's the only model that even starts to make sense of various minerological strata distributions. and so there it is. )
mircea_popescu: in short, i don't mean that it dun persuade me "it's the case". it dun persuade me it's worth my time as a model.
asciilifeform: recall the continental drift wanks ?
mircea_popescu: "it broadly works" "yes, it does. you know what else broadly works ? everything else children do to coo themselves to sleep"
mircea_popescu: what else. planets, too, stars also, everything ? what's the use of this unviersally applicable model, precisely ?
mircea_popescu: but consider -- the notion that objects "live, age, die" also dun strike you ?
asciilifeform: iirc somebody dug up that collapse of persia even had the 'atonal music' lulz.
asciilifeform: and it dun strike me as somehow outlandish that in cn they've played the tape 3-4 times, while in europistan 1-2.
asciilifeform: the courageous conqueror's sons are lazy fucks, piss away empire, new conquerors come an' GC it, and while(1).
asciilifeform: the notion that civilizations live , age, die, dun strike me as at all outrageous. possibly the only solidly known fact about'em , in fact.
mircea_popescu: so yes, in the sense of the shittiest parts, they, just like us, and like everyone ever was or ever could be.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there's no question that cowardice, stupidty and indignity are countryless.
mircea_popescu: now, how's "i do not repent me" square with the "i do repent what archeology seems to show"
asciilifeform: i'm suspecting an ~absence~ of a distinction, rather than a distinction. i.e. they eat an' shit just like in europistan, and they also complexity-collapse.
mircea_popescu: shakespeare's chinese in shaw's view, to render the matter in this discussion's terminology.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-13 16:20 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-12#1769922 << "You suddenly see that Shakespear, with all his flashes and divinations, never understood virtue and courage, never conceived how any man who was not a fool could, like Bunyans hero, look back from the brink of the river of death over the strife and labor of his pilgrimage, and say 'yet I do not repent me'; or, with the panache of a millionaire, bequeath 'my sword to him that sh
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'just like us' is not an implied hypothesis ( if to take cn at face value, they pissed on the electric fence 3, 4 times, europistan , 1-2 )
mircea_popescu: "artistic" as opposed to "conventional" in much the same way you propose "authentic" oppose "coherent". but mind for a second -- if your army's based on the enemy, you have no army at all, yes ?
mircea_popescu: shall i quote 1880s to you ? here : "The room was a long and lofty one, furnished in the stern uncompromising style of the Mahogany Age, now supplanted by the later fashions of decoration which, in their outset original and artistic, seem fairly on the way to become as meaningless and conventional."
asciilifeform: there was a thread coupla yrs ago where discussed how in modern cn archaeologists are kept ~out~ of anywhere with potentially buried readable goodies, on acct of modern pekin specifically trying for sov-style 'coherent history' crapola
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not necessarily, which is why the "musical revolution" of post great war. "atonal", right, you know it must be real music because it's not the tedious curliqued post-post-mozart nonsense.
mircea_popescu: in any case, the notice's inescapable, that "china -- real history because real nation, just like us ; actresses, not." a lot hangs on that "just like us".
asciilifeform: it can't be handwaved. but funnily enuff, i credit the surviving frags largely on acct of their ~incoherence~ . a good fudge job produces ~coherent~ crapola.
mircea_popescu: very much fucking needed, because otherwise how to answer ?
mircea_popescu: and yes, of course it goes straight to the core of what nationalism ~is~, very much not "a concept we no longer need" as various low level slash "moderate" socialists propose.
mircea_popescu: (i'm not even proposing it can't be so credited ; i just think the question can't be handwaved.)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so if you don't credit these actresses a real history, why do you credit china a real history ?
mircea_popescu: produce me a list of all the actresses of whom it was said "eternal performance" in any theatrical season of your choice, before ww2 started, sau.
asciilifeform prolly the last one to ask, can't answer q for ~this~ yr much less 1919
mircea_popescu: MULTIPLE TIMES A FUCKING SEASON. each fucking season. like in 1919. can you even say who was the top actress of the stage, 1919 ?
mircea_popescu: kinda like how the magic acre goes, tho. do you know how many times it was said in broadway sheets, "this performance is eternal" ? can you recount any of them ?
asciilifeform: difficult to conclusively adjudicate the claim w/out time machine, they had this habit of rm -rf / erry time they cycled
mircea_popescu: or so they claim.
asciilifeform: eh the cn folx went through what, 3? 4? cycles of warlords/unification/goldenage/sclerosis/pantsuit/collapse before euros got to'em
mircea_popescu: people in all times and places have this unquenchable thirst for the cheap yet dysfunctional. the whole king-fiction of medieval europe is chinesium before china were even invented by the brits.
asciilifeform: so not as simple as 'king issues' ( i'm aware that church-besotted europistan tried heroically to maintain the fiction, but was quite porous )
mircea_popescu: who was the me in all the groups of girlies before i showed up ? "a calling metaphysical", who cares.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i don't believe there's necessarily an answer at all, let alone in o(1).
mircea_popescu: somehow the stories fat frumos don't seem to include marriage by fruit of his labours "on the field". because you can't spank your own monkey into a wife anymore than you can douchebag your way into #trilema or pull yourself to moon by britches.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform except, of course, if it's any kind of magical horse, with powers. then daddy gives, yes ?
asciilifeform: king issues you fief tho, not chix ( yer expected to grow these )
mircea_popescu: yes, red army took all morons, catastrophic desperation, not encountered in europe since long before 900ad. nevertheless.
mircea_popescu: so then.
mircea_popescu: "o no mp, that was the knight's own horse, which he... founded it." "i'm sure. cuz lotta loose horses about, on the king's lands."
mircea_popescu: (notice, for the noob, that the woman ~is actually depicted~ in the above illustration. she happens to be quadripedal, but as #metoo taught you, this shouldn't matter IN FAIRNESS.)
mircea_popescu: from "x is the only possible function of y" dun follow that y will ever even happen, yes.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you're thinking of the wrong end again, lol. lord possibly wants a dozen or a grosse concubines, and one or a dozen knaves. so he marries some of the girls off. "but what are all the OTHER boys to do ???" "keks."
mircea_popescu: and this is how it worked, historically, too. contrary to loud pretense claiming otherwise, marriage created a pleb's reinterpretation of ye olde vasselage between an old man and a young'un.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile, the ~only~ possible meaning of marriage is as a https://teresafritschi.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/vassal-paying-homage-1.jpg ceremony.
mircea_popescu: not even. rather, that they invented the pill doesn't mean much changes, because the ~pretense~ was that "they're fucking your wife because they don't feel like raising her children". the TRUTH was that "the only possible way human affairs are settled is -- boss has a harem, you wish to work for boss so therefore marry one of his whores".
asciilifeform: i.e. problem of 'what to do with excess meat' was transformed into 'who gets stuck with the work of occasionally baking new meat' ?
mircea_popescu: so one day, when they kick their football into your window, you, instead of giving it back (as trees, before), you... you... what do you do ? TEAR IT UP!!! is that it ?
mircea_popescu: suppose you live somewhere where there grow kids (specifically, like trees, because that's how it goes -- nobody cares).
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: plox to expand on how 'corner' is 'hidden', rather than cut
mircea_popescu: anyone who wants to believe is welcome to. i... i have serious problems with works of fiction, as the logs no doubt attest.
mircea_popescu: in more settled times, the chief of the office has a harem already, and to work in there you aspire to... ~marry one~.
mircea_popescu: that they were married already, to some loser, was the best possible quality a horny 20something could bring to the table.
mircea_popescu: because, obviously, nobody wanted to be stuck with the end results of the hussies' fertility.
mircea_popescu: consider a simple case : sovok consisted of men in positions of feudal power (such as boss of factory, chief of an office, whatever) fucking the prettier "married" women in their charge.
asciilifeform: the variant mircea_popescu painted, where 'feed 99%+ of males to pigs at birth, and the rest program robots and fuck harem' requires automation that i suspect aint happenin'.
mircea_popescu: the only fundamental quality of man is that man can be happy in any circumstance.
mircea_popescu: this isn't in the slightest what's discussed here.
asciilifeform: the variant where 'buncha d00dz get 1000 calories/diem and cut trees with extra 200 cal as bonus for top 10%' was tried, ended up short of +ev ( berzin -- was shot, recall )
asciilifeform not domain expert in running gulag, but sees it as obv that in past , some carrot/stick algos were competitive, in fyootoor -- other, diff ones win