asciilifeform: OriansJ: re patents, there's plenty of folx living in free world, who will piss on whatever patent simply for the pleasure of the piss
asciilifeform: beyond that, afaik state of the art is 'ha, very funny, you wanted what?!'
asciilifeform: the only semiconductor i've so far baked with own hands is cu oxide diode.
OriansJ: asciilifeform: honestly, the chemicals and the patents are still a mess in that field plus the never could produce a chip that could exceed 100khz
asciilifeform: i'll happily buy it. along with the promised tabletop fusion plant...
asciilifeform: y'mean the 1 that was 'any day nao!' 20y ago ?
asciilifeform: OriansJ: what if my definition of 'trusted chip' is specifically where i own the gear and no other people are involved at any stage ?
asciilifeform: what asciilifeform is looking for, re ic fab breakthrough, is specifically a process that would be to ic what the cd recorder was to cd
OriansJ: asciilifeform: It is a guide for groups of people to pool together resources and setup a 1 micrometer fab to generate trusted chips. Yes it is far from optimal but it is a step in the right direction.
asciilifeform: and i do not see anything in the linked recipe to suggest a kitchenable process.
asciilifeform: right, the problem is specifically that it's happening somewhere other than my kitchen.
asciilifeform: i.e. there is nothing there to suggest that the author has discovered a peculiarly cheap method of fabbing ic
asciilifeform: looking at the 'process steps' docs in the linked page, it seems to be a straight wikipedization of ordinary schoolbook description of ic fab process
OriansJ: asciilifeform: sadly they haven't given that yet but let us just assume Industry costs (say $10K) per wafer
OriansJ: asciilifeform: it is a project for open source lithography, it currently is at the 1 micrometer process node and limited to around 1 million transistors at this time
OriansJ: So, perhaps the most important question what has been actually decided about Sane Iron and what still needs definition?
asciilifeform: and specifically as illustration of the physical limits of thompsonism, in the abstract
asciilifeform: correct. so, proposing to put 64-state statemachine on each pin and look for it? and what, slip the timings so dram loses bits ? this is in the 'smoke' category, logic analyzer will find the peculiar defect, and victim buys another fpga.
OriansJ: Let us just assume the FPGA was not compromised and leverage it for the bootstrap work at this stage (I'll be going to pure LibreSilicon before I am finished but hey to each their own)
OriansJ: asciilifeform: DRAM initialization has a very unique pattern which can be detected very early (long before the DRAM itself is ready)
asciilifeform: OriansJ: if i'm baking e.g. dram refresher -- then quite easily (and very frustratingly, in actual practice did, it is why it is ~impossible to bake a decent dram controller from scratch using fpga that hasn't been 'solved' ice40-style )
OriansJ: asciilifeform: well some of these patterns are universally useful and will exist even in Sane Iron systems
asciilifeform: the irons that speak these 'common patterns' -- already sabotaged decade+ ago, no need even to concern with fpga..
OriansJ: asciilifeform: that is absolutely correct; an attacker in Silicon can only put in attack hooks for things that they know about not all possible inputs.
asciilifeform: the puzzler concerns 'general purpose' sabotaged fpga, rather than case where you know what the victim intends to connect and what protocols etc
OriansJ: Ethernet frames need to look like this and Serial buffers need to behave like this
OriansJ: asciilifeform: so the Fab knows those cells will be for I/O and we know some common patterns of I/O that we can eletrically detect
asciilifeform: OriansJ: i specifically picked the part for this attribute. ( ice40 was not 'solved' yet at the time , but it has quite similar topology )
asciilifeform: OriansJ: not all. matter of fact, the 1 used in http://nosuchlabs.com/hardware.html has no dedicated cells, aside from i/o
BingoBoingo: OriansJ: On possibly missing prior is that should the work take us there, in this channel the question of fabbing our own hardware (Maybe on saphire wafers) is largely one of "when?"... provided we live to see it.
asciilifeform: ( if this counts as a useful attack, why not answer instead 'coupla gram of thermite' ? )
asciilifeform: OriansJ: let's posit. what does this give you, if you do not know what is connected to the i/o pins ? beyond ability to short +v to - and smoke
a111: Logged on 2017-02-24 02:36 asciilifeform: veen: let's try a historical angle. according to legend, emperor qin shi huangdi (same d00d as known for taking the 'immortality pill' and promptly croaking) had a palace with 1,500 rooms. and would not tell anyone in advance which one he plans to sleep in on a given night. and which ones he would put cutthroats in, ready to kill anyone who opens door. think 'minesweeper.'
a111: Logged on 2019-04-06 21:51 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-05#1907037 << i recommend to read the logs re 'specificity' ( picture yourself baking a sabotaged fpga , for victim whose gate net you do not know in advance. what would you put in it ? )
asciilifeform: OriansJ: possibly we are speaking at cross purposes. having eaten the log, i formed impression that OriansJ is interested in hypothetical sane iron, and not merely dethompsonization of x86 pc.
OriansJ: asciilifeform: Your level of bootstrap is considerably higher level than mine. I assume I have to hand toggle in the root binary and hand assemble everything.
OriansJ: There are very good reasons why typed memory systems appeared after high level languages did.
asciilifeform: it goes into the iron, you dun need to bootstrap it as such, beyond applying mains current
asciilifeform: OriansJ: plz make the case re why ?
asciilifeform: OriansJ: imho the place for it ( just as for e.g. bignums, arrays, other basics ) is in the iron
a111: Logged on 2019-04-06 12:52 OriansJ: and let us be honest here; making it easy to trap on undefined instructions, jumping to a software routine that performs the functional definition of that instruction and returning to right after the trapped instruction. Will allow us to ditch instructions in hardware without fear of breaking our bootstrap.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-06 12:41 OriansJ: Mocky: floating point support is part of being turing complete. We can either bitch about how bad it is (Like the old MIPS engineers) or accept the reality and figure out a why that costs us the least.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-06#1907058 << this is where i say 'wtf' . what am i missing here ? where and for what do you need the ieee erroneous-arithmetics liquishit ?!
asciilifeform: and yes, 'branch delay slot' is retarded. as is the whole pipeline concept. ( why ? cuz http://www.loper-os.org/?p=300 . sane iron FIRST, and ~then~ can ~maybe~ think about speed. )
a111: Logged on 2019-04-06 00:52 OriansJ: The Branch Delay slot should never been allowed and it just adds complexity to any bootstrap. The Multiply and Divide instructions of MIPS were just a bad idea and the DEC Alpha solution was a much better combination to go. The Exception style overflow pattern in MIPS is pure complexity and waste; the 68K series was so much closer to the optimal (The split Integer register and BCD support was a bad mistake that I am glad Cold Fire
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-06#1907042 << all of these archs were missing essential piece for sanity -- type tagging and bounds checking. ( i.e. if running ada or lisp 'costs extra' on your iron vs. c , your arch is broken ! )
asciilifeform: i.e. whole problem of 'bootstrap', imho, is misformulated . why to fixate on thompsonism and then bring up multi-decamegabyte kernel fulla liquishit, on which to run overflowandcrashlang (aka 'c') compiler with which to then build moar of same, etc
a111: Logged on 2019-03-26 20:05 asciilifeform: bvt: the other thing, is the 3-ring circus aspect of elaborately dethompsonizing a box in order to... bring up 1M+line of linusolade
a111: Logged on 2019-04-05 23:38 OriansJ: As for the operating system floor; there is a micro-posix subset that might be of interest as it would be enough for bootstrapping full operating systems but not complex enough to have anything non-deterministic.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-05#1907037 << i recommend to read the logs re 'specificity' ( picture yourself baking a sabotaged fpga , for victim whose gate net you do not know in advance. what would you put in it ? )
a111: Logged on 2019-04-05 23:06 OriansJ: although if one wanted good backwards compatability with x86 and the rest; simply add load/store instructions that work on little endian data
a111: Logged on 2019-04-05 23:03 OriansJ: well the only extremely useful feature for bootstrapping hardware architectures have is clean encoding and a sane subset of operations that make working with strings and structs easy to do in assembly.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-05#1907023 << whytheFUCK wouldja want the nullterm-string warcrime to exist on a brand-new arch ?
a111: Logged on 2019-04-05 23:02 OriansJ: bvt: Actually DOS wouldn't be the correct direction as it is actually more complex to implement portably and it's abstraction layer isn't right for a good general bootstrap.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-05#1907021 << 'dos' as typically discussed here is simply shorthand for 'os that fits in coupla kB and gets the fuck out of the way and speaks only when spoken to' , roughly
a111: Logged on 2019-04-05 22:53 OriansJ: BingoBoingo: I agree POSIX has a great many flaws but there are some ideas inside of it worth preserving; especially in regards to bootstrapping.
BingoBoingo: hanbot's Costa Rica to Uruguay via WU experiment ended up going through a channel other than WU, so the suspicion is Intra-LATAM WU is fucked
diana_coman: tbf unsure how smooth either wire or wu would be from UK given additional currency headache; hence my hesitation to add this one to the to do list but by the looks of it, if this continues with no real bids even on quite competitive prices, I guess I'll have to.
BingoBoingo: *not the only option
BingoBoingo: diana_coman: WU is not. Normal bank wires work. WU is offered as an option because it works for people inside the wire sending to LATAM. Unsure how smooth WU UK would be.
OriansJ: Mocky: Don't get stuck on the idea of Floating point, it is just an example of classes of instructions that are complex to implement in hardware that a proper illegal instruction trap will allow us to move between hardware and software with no one else having to care what we are doing. As we want people programming to standards not to systems.
Mocky: whoever wants can write their own. why start with idiocy in mind
OriansJ: and let us be honest here; making it easy to trap on undefined instructions, jumping to a software routine that performs the functional definition of that instruction and returning to right after the trapped instruction. Will allow us to ditch instructions in hardware without fear of breaking our bootstrap.
Mocky: "someone will certainly want X" therefore "we make X easy"; mno
OriansJ: So we can either make simulating more complex instructions in software easy or we can shoot ourselves in the foot trying to avoid the unavoidable (The ability to support floating point)
OriansJ: Mocky: yes that was my point; floating point will either exist in hardware or software because of Turing completeness.
OriansJ: spyked: well the iCE40 is a good starting point for now and I guess we can agree on that. You are right about not having to be portable but I prefer building a stack that can be used to defend against a Nexus Intruder program class attack.
Mocky: and in addition you suggested floating point as software addon. turing completeness can now be achieved after the fact!
OriansJ: Mocky: floating point support is part of being turing complete. We can either bitch about how bad it is (Like the old MIPS engineers) or accept the reality and figure out a why that costs us the least.
diana_coman: it seems quite surprising to me there isn't more interest but tbf I haven't used local WU ever, would need to even look it up, lol.
diana_coman: BingoBoingo: is WU the only option for those wff?
spyked is off into the mountains
a111: Logged on 2018-04-16 15:20 mircea_popescu: the best example i can think of is the code on the old handheld calculators. THAT is a general purpose os : it makes no assumption about the downstream, merely fully, cleanly and directly exposes the hardware.
spyked: that is, for whatever architecture it's implemented on, it doesn't have to be the same DOS
spyked: ogrammer's way most of the time
a111: Logged on 2019-04-05 23:02 OriansJ: bvt: Actually DOS wouldn't be the correct direction as it is actually more complex to implement portably and it's abstraction layer isn't right for a good general bootstrap.
spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-05#1907021 <-- the problem with "portability" (in the sense of supporting/maintaining the same software interface across different hardware architectures/configurations) is that it's a convenient lie most of the times. the goal isn't to implement the same DOS for all architectures, but to have some sort of DOS that provides some functionality and otherwise stays out of the pr
spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-05#1907037 <-- on the longer term, something along the lines of http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=ice40 ; on the shorter, http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=apu / http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=rk
Mocky: OriansJ: why the hell support floating point at all?
OriansJ: The Branch Delay slot should never been allowed and it just adds complexity to any bootstrap. The Multiply and Divide instructions of MIPS were just a bad idea and the DEC Alpha solution was a much better combination to go. The Exception style overflow pattern in MIPS is pure complexity and waste; the 68K series was so much closer to the optimal (The split Integer register and BCD support was a bad mistake that I am glad Cold Fire
OriansJ: electrically seperating them and simply require an Interlock delay when registers are updated between units) as that is the closest approximation of the 88.5 registers that is optimal
OriansJ: I've been exploring the logs and one thing you may wish to know about bootstrapping MIPS is humans writing assembly need only 7 registers (I round up to 16 to include Stack pointer(s) and Condition register(s) and if my goal was optimize for C compiler performance, I would have gone with 64 registers (architecturally unified between the Integer unit and the Floating point unit but leveraging the trick of the DEC Alpha 21264 and
OriansJ: one minor note; there is a common pattern with structs to load (base + offset) followed by arithmetic/logic with another register and generally writing out to another (base + offset). So it is tempting to put in instructions to do those; but as the VAX has shown, it isn't worth the additional complexity.
OriansJ: As for the operating system floor; there is a micro-posix subset that might be of interest as it would be enough for bootstrapping full operating systems but not complex enough to have anything non-deterministic.
bvt: yes, with tape writers/serials, os can be delayed much further; persistent storage would complicate bootstrap a lot.
OriansJ: hence why I assumed a hardware mechanism for loading paper tape into memory and setting all registers to zero and then boot; as it eliminates the bootloader and the operating system entirely from the question.
OriansJ: If one doesn't want to have a boot rom; one needs either a hardware tape reader (which writes tape to memory on power on and jumps to address 0 to run it or a toggle board. A serial bus just moves the bootstrap trust issue to another piece of hardware
OriansJ: add with carry (in, out and in/out); substract with borrow (in, out and in/out) really simply the task of writing arbitrary precision libraries in assembly
OriansJ: although if one wanted good backwards compatability with x86 and the rest; simply add load/store instructions that work on little endian data
OriansJ: Big Endian instruction and data encoding seem the most obvious great ideas for simplifying the task of bootstrapping (especially in regards to troubleshooting)
OriansJ: well the only extremely useful feature for bootstrapping hardware architectures have is clean encoding and a sane subset of operations that make working with strings and structs easy to do in assembly.
bvt: unfortunately i've worked mostly with x86, so the only other assembler i've seen was arm64 (did not look at it's instruction encoding though)
OriansJ: bvt: Actually DOS wouldn't be the correct direction as it is actually more complex to implement portably and it's abstraction layer isn't right for a good general bootstrap.
OriansJ: bvt: well believe it not; previously most architectures were easy to encode by hand (PDP-11, PDP-10, Vax, 6502, z80, 8086) but MIPS changed the game by showing with high enough languages one can be brain dead in regards to human understanding of the encoding rules and squeeze a drop of extra performance out.
bvt: re 2, after a restricted ada assembler, should a ada-dos be built? mes assumes that linux kernel is a given, which imho is a big hole in the process
OriansJ: 1) Did you mean in regards to minimal hardware requirements or the set which would make it a host platform worth using after the bootstrap is done and 2) Generally a higher level language such as Ada or C.
bvt: but are there any other features that help the bootstrap? even if this increases hardware complexity a bit
bvt: to my understanding there are two questions: 1. what are the requirements to the architecture 2. what is the first interim stop after a post-M1 assembler?
BingoBoingo: This isn't quite an area I'm incredibly specialized in, hopefully others can chime in.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-05 22:26 OriansJ: bvt: well to be honest, an Ada subset would be much easier to implement than a C subset; the problem however is always available contributors.
bvt: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-05#1906987 << well, this depends on the subset of ada; re contributors - this is a known issue
OriansJ: BingoBoingo: I agree POSIX has a great many flaws but there are some ideas inside of it worth preserving; especially in regards to bootstrapping.
BingoBoingo: But we have people deploying things in the present and the things have to have something while the burning continues.
BingoBoingo: Eventually the direction seems to be leading it towards burning the whole stack down, POSIX and all.
OriansJ: well let me ask it this way; are you planning to use a posix subset or a subset which will portable upon posix and other OS bases?
BingoBoingo: But gotta have a fairly hygenic platform to build things from and deploy them on, so trinque has been working on capturing a hygenic and stable one.
BingoBoingo: http://www.loper-os.org/?cat=49 << FFA, the author asciilifeform is dealing with a fever, but he is usually around
BingoBoingo: Well, they tend to build on each other. The Linux (dubbed Cuntoo) is to escape all of the distributions constantly changing the base and tools.
BingoBoingo: diana_coman put together a crypto library, ave1 has a leaner GNAT, and asciilifeform has a bignum library and other products.
BingoBoingo: OriansJ: Well right now we have some people working on flensing a minimal linux from Gentoo-MUSL and other people building utilities in ADA
OriansJ: bvt: well to be honest, an Ada subset would be much easier to implement than a C subset; the problem however is always available contributors.
bvt: so far everything points into the direction opposite of linux/c (http://mocky.org/Log-Reference-Why-Ada/ may be interesting)
a111: Logged on 2019-03-18 15:31 asciilifeform: http://bvt-trace.net/2019/03/mes-part-1-stage0/#selection-29.94-29.340 << imho ~100% of the attempts on record , made exactly same mistake -- they assumed that 'architecture-specific aspects creep into the design of the boostrapping process' only concerns ~what is there~ in the arch, and not ~what is not there~ (e.g. sane memory management, type tags) . if you dun put the complexity of certain necessary sanities where it belongs -- i
OriansJ: So I hear there is some interest in bootstrapping architectures here
BingoBoingo: ICBP is the future
mp_en_viaje: now, this is certainly not worth doing if you're going from paris to berlin, and probably not even to go from milan to minsk. but there's approximately no other way to take me from san jose to munchen in less than 10 hours besides this.
mp_en_viaje: wings are a quaint artefact of the propeller era ; as commercial airliner no longer actually uses propellers, there's no objective reason to stick to the wing design.
mp_en_viaje: the cost to make point c 500 or so km as opposed to the current 10 isn't THAT significant, considering the air is rather thin past the first 5-6km anyway. yes it's expensive to defeat gravity, but not AS expensive, because it scales with square of distance anyway, by the time you've done 10 out of 500 you've done such a large chunk of the work already...
mp_en_viaje: yet it is ~fundamenally geometrically incorrect~ to fly in this manner. the correct way to move from point a to point b is to go to a point c far enough so that A CHANGE OF ANGLE translates in the change of projected position on earth's surface from a to b.
mp_en_viaje: current airplanes have a "flight altitude" because of the wings derpitude, and it's a value in tension between the needs for air friction to support the bucket and the disadvantage of air friction burning fuel.
mp_en_viaje: imagine this wonder : no more wings, airplane is a tube, 20 or 50 or w/e rings, with a dumbwaiter in the middle i guess, people seated around it. a rocket basically, it goes up and then down.
mp_en_viaje: gotta keep the swampwater level.
asciilifeform: ah these not yet
mp_en_viaje: a point of no consequence to most people, who do not have the last 5%. you probably want to keep yours though.
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, seriously though, paracetamol, water, whatever it takes, do not deliriumfever. it is a fine way to burn the last 5% of cns.
mp_en_viaje: see what happens if you walk around fo rhours upon hours in the cutting wind clad in nothing but thin nearly see-through tropical bimbo outfits ?
mp_en_viaje: supposedly "there's a lot of statues available all around, in the shape of marble chunks. all you have to do is get them out -- but careful to not hurt them trying". it's a great story, it's been making the rounds for more than a century, but... what do you do if there actually ISNT such a thing as a chunk large enough ?
mp_en_viaje: in other news, the howling beauty of asciilifeform 's latest production haunts me. diana_coman has a point yo, absolutely should be an article on yer blog. not like it's not been done before.
mp_en_viaje: the cow... it has died.
mp_en_viaje: in retrospect, it's the bittersweet kind of irony typical of how the world actually works that the crowning opus of argentine govt fantasy was called vaca muerta
mp_en_viaje: BingoBoingo, thing is, not like the morons are using the pampas for anything else anyway. but no, why use bsas as a port and go inland. let's all move into "capital" and eat each other's farts.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-04 12:04 diana_coman: re relish or not I quite suspect many would be way happier if they didn't "have to unique"
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-04#1906894 << this is both persuasive in theory and observed in practice.
BingoBoingo: Unlike Argentina who killed their beef export market to feed the derps, Uruguay is still grass fed premium export market product because Uruguay knows they starve if they can't export
mp_en_viaje: such sadness, the decay of argentine beef production.
BingoBoingo: We've got restaurants serving Argentine feedlot beef (Granted they do have to label it as FEEDLOT lest the beef police beat them)
mp_en_viaje: day three, they're handing me cents in response to 50 euro bill. win is win-win for the win.
mp_en_viaje: the dood is al lproud, "you come back, because is good! yes ?" "yes, i say". "i know you, i see. you like, you come back" "precisely"
mp_en_viaje: so we turn back and buy two more. buttered pretzels, wunderbar, i hand out a five they give out some coins change.
BingoBoingo: Like the Uruguayos and their beef. The ones who raise beef are masters of Beef. The ones who don't can't cook in a way that does the beef justice outside of the asado tradition.
BingoBoingo: So far it sounds like the migrants are beating the Germans at the civilization thing to get that sorta praise
mp_en_viaje: just a buncha lebanese (i think) doods, with the dedication, permitting mediterranean tradition to finally meet frankish iron.
mp_en_viaje: easily the best eats in all munchen are to be found at this humble deli stand in the subway ; and my remembered new york's delis would be pressed to compete.
mp_en_viaje: obviously they do it italian style, with mother dough, stone ovens, it is definitive and unmitigated perfection.
mp_en_viaje: and the bread... the bread... i mean, specialist slave, been making bread for years, this is better. FIRST TIME anything like this ever occured.
mp_en_viaje: i mean, their sandwiches use the same brie i use. they have pastrami with horseradish mustard i wouldn't be ashamed to offer to visiting lords at my own table. nothing's older than an hour maybe, the romaigne as crispy as if i just picked it myself
mp_en_viaje: there's this snoot or sloot or w/e stand right between the green/red line interconnect in hauptbanhof (central station). these people...
mp_en_viaje: oh holy god, i have found the deli fucking mecca.
BingoBoingo: How's the bread situation?
diana_coman: re relish or not I quite suspect many would be way happier if they didn't "have to unique"
diana_coman: asciilifeform: why though not post it on your blog really? can be with title and half a page explanations as to how it's not-the-real-think-just-yet but still there
mp_en_viaje: in other news, fermented milk fucking sucks here.
mp_en_viaje: meanwhile in unelated lulz : the p farnese, long time seat of french embassy in rome, was actually given to the french for 99 years. in 1936. "infinity" coming to an end soonish.
mp_en_viaje: http://archive.is/aQ3mE#selection-489.2-489.112 aka "our '''philosophy of religion''' is in fact a church (so as to avoid '''biases''' such as for instance it being a church. therefore, please quote only from our bible."
mp_en_viaje: in other keks, it's fucking hysterical just how disruptive danielpbarron actually is.
mod6: Good Evening TMSR~ : Here's The Bitcoin Foundation's State of Bitcoin Address for March http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2019-April/000327.html
lobbesbot: trinque: Sent 16 hours and 22 minutes ago: <spyked> could pl0x look at deedbot deposits when you get the time? fyi, I started two !!deposit and only did the latter; can cancel the former, I'll redo it later if needed
a111: Logged on 2019-04-03 08:41 spyked: !Qlater tell trinque could pl0x look at deedbot deposits when you get the time? fyi, I started two !!deposit and only did the latter; can cancel the former, I'll redo it later if needed
asciilifeform: the deadsouls, i suspect, know what they are, and dun particularly relish having mirror held up to their snouts
asciilifeform: fwiw i do find it interesting that when you offer to heathen 'cheap unique' -- to bake a pubkey -- or even to post under the fucking name his progenitors gave him -- typical specimen runs screaming
asciilifeform: the disease sequelae of 'illusion of unique' i'ma not replay, mp_en_viaje covered subj to death
asciilifeform: in jp, schoolboys wear uniform, moar or less same one asciilifeform wore in orcistan. and there they try to 'unique' by gluing socks so they stick up instead of rolling. and they beat'em for it, as is proper.
asciilifeform: this sorta thing is why sergeant beats soldier/sailor for wearing his cap sideways or whatever other idjit attempts to 'unique'
asciilifeform: the bird, tho, arguably comes closer to 'generating pubkey', at least he aint carefully trying to make his rubbish look entirely same as neighbour's
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: re 'parameters', witness typical life cycle of ameritard. schoolboy -- glues rubbish to his knapsack, so to 'unique' . then inherits car, glues rubbish to bumper of car. then pupates and indentures into 'buying' house, glues rubbish to house. etc
asciilifeform: 'unique personalities' i'ma leave to the gods. for man imho suffices to find coupla unique primes...
BingoBoingo: <mp_en_viaje> the driver of the error is the desire of having a ~unique~ personality. it is not deemed sufficient, by contemporary man, to merely have the same personality as the entire tableau of orthodox saints. there's too many of those, see. gotta be unique. as it can't be unique and meaningful at te same time (think, can it ?)... all that's left is the getting-drunk-on-tapwater "secret parameters". << On the USG side also likely
mp_en_viaje: or w/e, fingerprints, whole list of these. bootshining.
mp_en_viaje: only in that they are what the contemporaneous man believe it to be. but yes, we shall continue later.
Mocky: I see what you mean by the driver of the error, but I don't see how height, numeric value etc. have to do with personality.
mp_en_viaje: the driver of the error is the desire of having a ~unique~ personality. it is not deemed sufficient, by contemporary man, to merely have the same personality as the entire tableau of orthodox saints. there's too many of those, see. gotta be unique. as it can't be unique and meaningful at te same time (think, can it ?)... all that's left is the getting-drunk-on-tapwater "secret parameters".
mp_en_viaje: whereas "those things no one could know" are in fact so much wind chasing, because... well duh, ~of course they could~. self-evidently they could, how the fuck not.
mp_en_viaje: yet "those things anyone could do" are the only possible meaningful personality, specifically in that most ... do not fucking do them.
mp_en_viaje: act that little story i described (because "anyone could have done that") but rather the incidental ~exact number~ representin my height, or the ~exact numeric value~ of what i said in private sometime, or (as per anglo-bank logic) the string that's my mother's maiden name
mp_en_viaje: there is a ~reason~ that google's (and, by proxy, senior brin's son's son's) genius notion of "intelligence" is ~VERY LARGE~ (if sparse) matrix of values while usg.polizeistaat's notion of "knowledge" is... ~very large~ (if sparse) matris of values (describing eg phone metadata) WHILE AT THE SAME TIME all the people involved, in either of those, and all the people the yever know or will know, firmly believe that ~my true personality~ is not in f
mp_en_viaje: i said i don't think so, and held them out for his inspection. he thanked me for my kindnss, i explained it's not so much kindness as duty, and we parted amicably.
mp_en_viaje: so today, i took elevator in neue rathaus (it's a thing in munchen, irrelevant specifically). this involved paying a fee. the man i paid it to made change from 52 for 12 by handing me a 20 euro and a 100 euro bill.
mp_en_viaje: that'll pass. now, i propose to you that this is a parameter in the first place, in that it consists of a matter of degrees, however combined. it's entirely quantitative, there's no qualitative portion to it. and it is secret, because her belief is that another wouldn't know which valus the parameter takes, nothing else.
mp_en_viaje: this is admirably circular. but let's let it lay as it fell for now, and instead look from the other end : give me an example of something some chick would regard as permitting you to distinguish her from any other.
Mocky: well there's an entity or process that exists that can be parameterized, and so some attribute or input that process
Mocky: but how do the secret parameters apply to personal identity?
mp_en_viaje: the "secret mempool", the "claiming saddam has things he doesn't will forward our goals", it's an endless list. remarkably enough, it's a COMPLETE list of contemporary thought.
mp_en_viaje: there can't be, you see, such a thing as a secret parameter. and this applies equally well to the "bombing stationary object" problem touched above, and to the "i will make website ban so and so after so and so" anti-mp historical fetlifish computer "engineering", and to the romcom notion of "deeply personal experience" and so following.
mp_en_viaje: my point was that the contemporary notion of personal identity is actually predicated on a supposed set of secret parameters, something much akin to having it predicated on spherical cubes, or alf's 2's that are also somtimes 1s.
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, isn't that quite the mental image btw ? a plutonium lake.
mp_en_viaje: difference between "engine that could work if built, but can't be built until liquid plutonium available by the pondful" and "engine that is based on thermodynamic non-cycle".
asciilifeform: imho patents were a joke from day1, what with 'exam takers' immediately finessing the problem of 'reveal enuff to win if litigated, but not enuff to build clone'
Mocky: only now the signature secret sauce is yellow, ala: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-19#1826821
a111: Logged on 2018-06-19 16:35 asciilifeform: 'erryone hates it, all the lifts smell of piss. oh btw, where is the lift here, i gotta go'
mp_en_viaje: here we are in 2000, still with the exact same problem, just as unsolved.
mp_en_viaje: this, incidentally, is EXACTLY what patents and copyrights were supposed to solve, and were sold on the promise of solving : the moron 1700s "engineer" dropping his "signature secret sauce" in processes. so as to thereby exist.
asciilifeform: i dun even have sharp enuff drill to get a picture where they ~have~ a 'notion of personal identity'
mp_en_viaje: if you examine the matter with the tools of the psychologist, you might discover contemporary notion of ~personal identity~ in anglo world actually consists of little else.
mp_en_viaje: and i suspect they all rest on fundamental goanga whereby "but muh sikrit parameters"
asciilifeform: multi-mil loc. piles o'shit (and not even speaking of ~closes~ multi-mil loc, microshit etc.) go together with 'program via voodoo' like africa goes with dysentry
mp_en_viaje: (the fundamental difference between dumb cunt and dumb dicklet is that former wants "things to be good for everyone" whereas latter wants "her to have to")
asciilifeform: voluntarily. which is the mindboggler.
asciilifeform: the programmers actually built themselves a parallel world where 'science dunwork' , and moved in.
a111: Logged on 2014-09-27 03:19 asciilifeform: 'You have to do basic science on your libraries to see how they work, trying out different inputs and seeing how the code reacts.'
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, could well be. unlike the programmers, the incamother worshippers ~mean well~.
mp_en_viaje: it is problem of chthonic culture, so yes it just re-infects itself. the disease of contemporaneity expellas furcam etc.
asciilifeform: it is the programmers, i suspect, and not even the earthfeminists, who are at the forefront of 'climbing back into the trees' in this sense
mp_en_viaje: or to women in theworkplace, or to earth science, or to "futurism", or to wikipedia, or to etcetera.
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: not only this, but the disease progresses , afaik, in direct proportion to how much exposure to programming
mp_en_viaje: this goes quite deep in its import : the outlook of contemporary man is actually very deeply ANTIscientific.
mp_en_viaje: this obvious property of numbers & reality, properly baring anyone from passing out of math 101 until comprehended, nevertheless escapes all sorta ceo and other business strategists.
mp_en_viaje: and i don't mean JUST bitcoin. think of the problem in terms of http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-31#1906304 : fetlife hires engineer to add "impossible to guess" parameters to its laughingstock of a codebase. mp is unincluded in the
asciilifeform: for all i know, the heathens have moved 100% to hearn's 'pay to ip via ssl' or similar horror
asciilifeform: was speaking strictly of the trad protocol/promise cocktail
mp_en_viaje: but yes. lotta what is protocol is promise. starting with "segwit" bs, i won't unearth the threads.
asciilifeform: still remains the case that good % of what is typically thought of as the protocol, is actually promise ( i.e. it is trivial for a constructed noad to feed 'allcomers' 1 mempool, with stale shit, while he himself mines from entirely other set, that he dun relay to anyone , etc )
asciilifeform: ( recall the 'time padding' thrd ! )
mp_en_viaje: though the problem with C is that it dun survive derivation well,
asciilifeform: even then, entirely possible for even modestly clever operator to insert artificial delays, to confuse the probe
asciilifeform: the 'who lives at what ip' is entirely red herring, only the actual 'smoke from the fire' is at all informative, re heuristic 'who is miner' -- who seems to show up with new blox before others ? who takes shortest interval b/w getting a tx and it ends in a block ? etc
mp_en_viaje: there is tension in this question -- inasmuch as declaring your computer TWO computers arbitrarily, and then discussing the safety of the talk over this imaginary boundry is a purely abstract exerise.
mp_en_viaje: obv works on yokels, but ultimately extracting ~all tx of which any node ever talked t o another node is trivial.
asciilifeform: also gotta note, i did not posit that it 'works' (in the sense of 'they make bank'), only that 'they think it worx' ( a la spam )
a111: Logged on 2019-04-03 20:11 mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-03#1906628 << think : if this worked you;d know because conflicting tx would be 9000% of the mempool, because chinese fatty dun need you for anything, casn produce conflicts by his self.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-03#1906728 << see downthread -- it is entirely possible that they ~are~ (and indeed 'dun need you, he can make own', was noted in thrd)
a111: Logged on 2019-04-03 20:20 mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-03#1906640 << there is almost no case where mining n tx is better than mining n+1. some miners do multi-hashing, where they mine different blocks (generally, off-by-one tx blocks) on varios chunks of their farms (mostly because of naive chinese-like notions re chance), but this is not that.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-03 19:23 asciilifeform: diana_coman: fwiw i virtually never saw any of mine on bci & similar heathen www, until mined
a111: Logged on 2019-04-03 17:39 asciilifeform: i'd be quite curious to hear what trinque says about all of this; i expect today he does the most on-chain work of anyone here
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-03#1906661 << i do not believe so ; not in the sense he does not do a lot.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-03 17:13 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-03#1906628 << to expand on this: say you issued tx1 where input i and output o1. he sees it, it goes to back of queue, as uninteresting, he does not mine it himself, but does relay to competitors. but if you also issue a and tx2, where input i and output o2, o2 != o1 , ~then~ tx2 goes to front of his queue, as by mining it he can throw caltrop to the competing miners , invalidating their chain
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-03#1906640 << there is almost no case where mining n tx is better than mining n+1. some miners do multi-hashing, where they mine different blocks (generally, off-by-one tx blocks) on varios chunks of their farms (mostly because of naive chinese-like notions re chance), but this is not that.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-03 15:33 BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-03#1906599 << Indeed. Can't even get Maduro to arrest him. China's got their Army Liberation People on the ground and in uniform handing out aid.
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-03#1906637 << another shining success by usg.blue, those bright chaps whose disdain at http://btcbase.org/log/2014-05-04#659152 is so very withering, as it comes from such higi loci of intellectual superiority and cultural overwhelm.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-03 14:58 asciilifeform: so far the closest thing i have to a hypothesis, is that the fattest chinese want you to issue a set of conflicting tx so the thinner ones end up with longer invalidated chains
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-03#1906628 << think : if this worked you;d know because conflicting tx would be 9000% of the mempool, because chinese fatty dun need you for anything, casn produce conflicts by his self.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-03 14:54 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-03#1906616 << this is a well-known effect ( most famously, possibly involved in how 'bitbet' burned down ) and i've personally observed it erry single time i sent coin in past coupla yrs . tx dun move until you send a conflicting tx . why the miners do this -- i still do not know
a111: Logged on 2019-04-03 15:05 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-03#1906605 << i entirely agree that reading human text in typewriter chars is painful. gotta point out tho , that 'truetype' monstrosity is not justified thereby, it is possible to have horizontally-variable bitmap font (simply store the # of horiz. pixels as matrix , for 'kerning' space , and otherwise same )
mp_en_viaje: anyway, server girly was very interested from the margins of the going ons on the harem table.
mp_en_viaje: i'm not saying they all have to participate or any insane shit like that. but if they can have 500 hypovereisbank offices, they could have ONE coffee house. for those incomprehensible weirdos who go there, what of it.