ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: http://www.flycheck.org
ascii_butugychag: victim^H^H^H^H^user has to install.
ascii_butugychag: rms did not accept it into emacs tree.
ascii_butugychag: flycheck is built into nothing.
ascii_butugychag: mno
ascii_butugychag: but it appears to be broken on crapple os 10.10 and above.
ascii_butugychag: it is
ascii_butugychag: how the fuq do you even program
ascii_butugychag: not the heathen 'alternative'
ascii_butugychag: and is built into emacs
ascii_butugychag: y'know, the thing that people actually use
ascii_butugychag: ben_vulpes: i was asking about ~flymake~
ascii_butugychag: ben_vulpes: holy shit wat??!
ascii_butugychag: sorta why i didn't cut'em up to begin with
ascii_butugychag: i'm persuaded.
ascii_butugychag: with the programmer in hell.
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: everybody knows it i think
ascii_butugychag: been swimming in precisely it, all day, even...
ascii_butugychag swims.
ascii_butugychag: urgh
ascii_butugychag: iirc somebody wrote a very spiffy generator for these.
ascii_butugychag: just made me ill.
ascii_butugychag: but could not do it
ascii_butugychag: i was going to write an actual blog post about the flycheck thing
ascii_butugychag: without anything like pgp sigs, etc
ascii_butugychag: and these all, at least if you use the recommended installer (no other instructions are provided), loaded from the net straight
ascii_butugychag: and, lastly, https://github.com/NicolasPetton/seq.el
ascii_butugychag: 'A modern list library for Emacs'
ascii_butugychag: such as:
ascii_butugychag: with fashionable ! dependencies !
ascii_butugychag: it wants to load from the net !!
ascii_butugychag: oh and i suppose for completeness of this thread i oughta mention one other thing
ascii_butugychag: ;;later tell ben_vulpes any idea why 'flymake' on mac never finds makefiles ?
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: aha. this is only not yet achieved for purely technical reasons.
ascii_butugychag: and if your street is not on this list, shuddup and die.
ascii_butugychag: imagine if your car came with a list of all possible streets it can make left turns into
ascii_butugychag: https://github.com/flycheck/flycheck/blob/master/flycheck.el#L5807 << BEHOLD, all of the things that are supposed to be gcc flags, ENUMERATED
ascii_butugychag: unless you're a terrorist.
ascii_butugychag: one is, i suspect, supposed to use some proprietary build system, such as crapple's
ascii_butugychag: then realized that the motherfucker prolly gets away with this because.. makefiles are 'out of fashion' !
ascii_butugychag: then realized that it is ~intrinsically~ unusable for any serious project
ascii_butugychag: i spent all day trying to get this piece of not-even-qualified-to-be-shit to run
ascii_butugychag: and emacs was allowed to decay to the point where the tool that ACTUALLY FUCKING WORKS AND IS 100 LINES AND NEVER EVER BREAKS is now broken
ascii_butugychag: what i want to know is how this became a standard
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: you know this fella?
ascii_butugychag: i develop for 5 different cpus.
ascii_butugychag: THIS IS TO BE READ FROM THE MOTHERFUCKING MAKEFILE
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: aha, he will put in my individual custom include paths, sure thing
ascii_butugychag: bubonic derplague in full bloom !!
ascii_butugychag: and i go to the site, and guess what i see,
ascii_butugychag: (author)
ascii_butugychag: '@sethfowler I won't allow arbitrary command lines for syntax checkers. ... Tell me, which concrete flags you need, and I'll add corresponding options.'
ascii_butugychag: so lo and behold i find, https://github.com/flycheck/flycheck/issues/207
ascii_butugychag: encountered by surprise in something i rely on every day
ascii_butugychag: i am only speaking of this here because it turns out to be a PERFECT example of poetteringization
ascii_butugychag: https://github.com/flycheck/flycheck/blob/master/flycheck.el#L5768 << example of what i meant
ascii_butugychag: it will INSIST on using it.
ascii_butugychag: and SATAN HELP YOU if you have clang on your machine
ascii_butugychag: and so you have to set custom environment variables to set include paths, or gcc flags, etc
ascii_butugychag: whereas 'flycheck' IGNORES makefiles
ascii_butugychag: so long as you had gnumake
ascii_butugychag: cray, nintendo, etc
ascii_butugychag: as such it did not care what cpu you built for, etc
ascii_butugychag: flymake was very simple, it just ran your makefile, which was required to have a check-syntax line in it (see, e.g., my block extractor program for example)
ascii_butugychag: which is THE standard compile-and-markup-your-window-with-errors-and-warnings widget for emacs
ascii_butugychag: emacs 24 on mac BREAKS flymake
ascii_butugychag: in other nyooz, HOLY SHIT is 'flycheck' (the supposed replacement, pushed everywhere one meets shithub types, for 'flymake') a piece of shit !!
ascii_butugychag: lucky mircea_popescu isn't a sapper !
ascii_butugychag: ^ the original
ascii_butugychag: or hm, that's some lamer's copy
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: oblig: http://www.lawrencesupino.com/letter.html
ascii_butugychag: l0l
ascii_butugychag: this is not negotiable.
ascii_butugychag: danielpbarron: aha!
ascii_butugychag: at least on paper
ascii_butugychag: BingoBoingo: for some reason i thought it was built on generic evangelical something-or-other
ascii_butugychag: but it is not difficult to understand what it must look like
ascii_butugychag: we still do not, afaik, have this
ascii_butugychag: (line l of file f of pressing p)
ascii_butugychag: danielpbarron: this is a mega-point, and my original was to have a wwwtronic thing where you could point to an individual place in timespace
ascii_butugychag: i have no idea what these are
ascii_butugychag: wai wut
ascii_butugychag: but most people... etc, etc.
ascii_butugychag: and yes, the ultimate city fire code is your own, screaming, flaming half-corpse
ascii_butugychag: before you walk in.
ascii_butugychag: but you would ideally like to have another, 'unauthoritative' guide.
ascii_butugychag: yes, the only CONCLUSIVE guide to the mine field is... the ~blam~
ascii_butugychag: the 'talmudic' view (of which my summary is by no means an expert one) is that the margin notes are like a map of a mine field
ascii_butugychag: BingoBoingo: danielpbarron's thing got perma-pressed and regenesised !!
ascii_butugychag: just the visuals
ascii_butugychag: i assume that everybody here has at least seen a page of talmud ?
ascii_butugychag: which was really the original stone age vtron.
ascii_butugychag: ty BingoBoingo. and i'm a little surprised that nobody (not even pete_dushenski) mentioned talmud yet
ascii_butugychag: apparently! they are not kept in some specially designated zoo
ascii_butugychag: i will note that the few actual women attending were creatures straight out of mircea_popescu's okc articles
ascii_butugychag: prolly
ascii_butugychag: and everybody l0led in their pants
ascii_butugychag: nah but some other ru kid stood up and said 'your algo was broken no fewer than 3 times, do i invest now or wait for 4th' or approx. this
ascii_butugychag: on account of that schmuck at shmoocon who was peddling a group-theoretical crypto algo, quasi-proprietary and patentalicious, that was more or less stolen verbatim from maslennikov's book...
ascii_butugychag: incidentally, i'm on a bit of a group theory kick
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: it will have to invoke... rings, fields, yes
ascii_butugychag: gotta define what means 'correctly evaluate'
ascii_butugychag: http://proofpad.org << for crapple users
ascii_butugychag: modest goal is key.
ascii_butugychag: i intend to use it to demonstrate that, e.g., all 'p' programs terminate.
ascii_butugychag: my first and probably last encounter with a mechanical proofatron that isn't immediately barfalicious in any way
ascii_butugychag: but not entirely unrelatedly, acl2 is a pretty spiffy thing
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: there is unlikely to be anything you ~really want~ at the bottom of that pile.
ascii_butugychag: and the result is virtually guaranteed to be indigestible.
ascii_butugychag: something godel-flavoured ?
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: what would such a proof look like, do you suppose ?
ascii_butugychag: l0l
ascii_butugychag: BingoBoingo: that comment will likely hit /dev/null shortly..
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: notbad
ascii_butugychag: i would argue that an illiterate kid who sees nothing wrong with copying bits is every bit as sane in this regard as RMS
ascii_butugychag: BingoBoingo: you are thinking of... purpose, rather than cause
ascii_butugychag: is it mechanically distinguishable from 'piracy because fuckyou and it's my computer and fuckyou again' ?
ascii_butugychag: what's 'piracy because poor' ?
ascii_butugychag: for some reason i thought those folks were forbidden to unionize
ascii_butugychag: actually no ?
ascii_butugychag: BingoBoingo: l0lwut ?
ascii_butugychag: hm ok
ascii_butugychag: (that is, vermin who base their entire lives on strategic deception and multilevel chumpatronics)
ascii_butugychag: against the people called 'adhesivists' in the 'shall be delivered' tale
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: my original attempt at v manifesto was largely about how... it is a weapon.
ascii_butugychag: congrats PeterL !
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: wai wut
ascii_butugychag: and said document, at least in my attempt, was to describe some of the cockroaches that have been running around in human mind for millenia, that it tries to chlorophos.
ascii_butugychag: rather than the 'how', which is bound up in a particular implementation and probably best learned from ~reading its src~
ascii_butugychag: at any rate, the large part of what i see as needing a manual, is the ~why~ of v
ascii_butugychag: reading history - is an art
ascii_butugychag: that is the part that 'oughta fit'
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: machine only runs a flattened (pressed) item anyway
ascii_butugychag: the ultimate historic annals.
ascii_butugychag: i see no reason why mailing lists ought not be vtronic
ascii_butugychag: incidentally
ascii_butugychag: ah hm then manual wurks
ascii_butugychag: i called my draft simply 'v-genesis'
ascii_butugychag: what, i'll scream twice ?
ascii_butugychag: so i would readily believe it if i had any reason to think it true
ascii_butugychag: hey i already wake up screaming
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: pu yi ? aha
ascii_butugychag: that is sorta the whole of it.
ascii_butugychag: there is not a meta-america whose pants these engineers want to put on.
ascii_butugychag: because they wanted american pants.
ascii_butugychag: it has plenty of each, but they are not on 'gs' civil service ladder.
ascii_butugychag: build yottahash plant, etc.
ascii_butugychag: why does usg keep returning to idiot humint claptrap (e.g., 'consensus-building' etc) when it could leverage its only real strength, money and captive engineers ?
ascii_butugychag: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-01-2016#1375311 << so i read this, and one thing continues to perplex me,
ascii_butugychag: ^ whole history of kompoyoooting as-a-field, aha.
ascii_butugychag: (though i recently bought a strange widget that puts electric current through your wrist and keeps you from barfing, nfi how, but wurks, so we can see again!)
ascii_butugychag: i tried, on the train, and nearly barfed.
ascii_butugychag: this is kinda why i stopped
ascii_butugychag: i very clearly spelled this out, when first published it.
ascii_butugychag: as i wrote it, aha.
ascii_butugychag: that's the job of whoever thinks it needs another million patches, no?
ascii_butugychag: of what? lead in the water ?
ascii_butugychag: l0l!!
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: wai wut??
ascii_butugychag: rather than a randomly selected one of 100 newton-era drafts
ascii_butugychag: just like every kid who wants to doodle in the margins of newton's principia starts with ~the same~ edition thereof
ascii_butugychag: one would think that an old and famous tree woudl end up perma-pressed at some point
ascii_butugychag: why not ?
ascii_butugychag: and it parallelizes.
ascii_butugychag: it isn't a numeric thing
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: 'when epoch ends'
ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: sounds splendid
ascii_butugychag: or how kalash buttstock is not built to be a dildo.
ascii_butugychag: because it is not built for comfort. just as t-34 tank was not.
ascii_butugychag: btw i hope everybody understands that life with 'v' is always going to resemble dark age blood sports like cvs, etc. far more than modern greased poles (e.g., 'git')
ascii_butugychag: rcs ?
ascii_butugychag: i will leave the 'why' as an exercise. largely because this is not a pressing issue.
ascii_butugychag: but it may lead us to tears later.
ascii_butugychag: mod6: correct. and to save wear on our trigger fingers
ascii_butugychag: mod6: correct
ascii_butugychag: from sheer historical accident
ascii_butugychag: in that things that have no business being glued together, ARE
ascii_butugychag: well if you think about it, the way we have it now is actually more complicated
ascii_butugychag: (the objects where ---whatever, HASH +++whatever, HASH)
ascii_butugychag: that is, individual 'patchons' ?
ascii_butugychag: has anyone a position on whether patches oughta be broken into atoms ?
ascii_butugychag: since folks are contemplating 'ideal v'
ascii_butugychag: incidentally
ascii_butugychag: for all time.
ascii_butugychag: what i say is that REGARDLESS of the names, if THE CRYPTO is valid, it is a VALID patch/seal tuple.
ascii_butugychag: but you also gotta consider what your box will do if it gets an inappropriately (for whatever reason) named patch.
ascii_butugychag: jurov: this is separate, mostly
ascii_butugychag: in EXACTLY same way as my trb node does THE SAME amount of number crunching whether it hears a block from gavin's node or from mircea_popescu's.
ascii_butugychag: no implicit delegations.
ascii_butugychag: does this make sense ?
ascii_butugychag: this means that if jurov's box has to verify my patch against every known sig every single time it presses to post to www, SO SHOULD MINE
ascii_butugychag: or we're using shithub, not v.
ascii_butugychag: i have to do THE SAME amount of verification work.
ascii_butugychag: this means that at no point do ~i~ get to do less verification ~because of something the mirror host does~ - e.g., verify mailed in patches
ascii_butugychag: the other thing i oughta mention is that imho a core principle of v-ism is that it is impermissible for trust to be implicitly delegated.
ascii_butugychag: nothing lives forever.
ascii_butugychag: after a certain point, there oughta be a new genesis.
ascii_butugychag: because i don't believe that any project has any business cancerously growing patches until this turns into a serious boojum.
ascii_butugychag: and i don't see it as a serious boojum
ascii_butugychag: the O(N^2) instrinsic runtime of unknown-patch-bag+unknown-sig-bag is something i realized from the start
ascii_butugychag: let me say why.
ascii_butugychag: yes.
ascii_butugychag: but then you get O(N^2), yes.
ascii_butugychag: (or rather, a slightly improved 'v' will run, existing one requires patch name to remain same)
ascii_butugychag: v will run if you rename the patch to 'fuckyou' and the sig to 'fuckapig'
ascii_butugychag: the fortunate thing is that it is NOT
ascii_butugychag: actually in that case i've no idea, iirc mod6 put it there
ascii_butugychag: PeterL: idk, but jurov had some reason, which i still don't fully grasp
ascii_butugychag: which happens to be sane.
ascii_butugychag: PeterL: this is the EXISTING convention, yes
ascii_butugychag: easier for WHAT ?
ascii_butugychag: what the fuck is the point of garbling it ?
ascii_butugychag: the .asciilifeform.sig IMMEDIATELY tells you that asciilifeform signed the thing before the .
ascii_butugychag: HOW?
ascii_butugychag: to what end ?
ascii_butugychag: it breaks everybody's 'v'
ascii_butugychag: so i don't see what the point is of this change
ascii_butugychag: it relates ONLY to the seal
ascii_butugychag: that .mod6. does not belong in the vpatch name
ascii_butugychag: how does this help anything ?
ascii_butugychag: what will this be under new convention ?
ascii_butugychag: let's start with 'asciilifeform_tx-orphanage_amputation.vpatch.mod6.sig'
ascii_butugychag: give example of the result ?
ascii_butugychag: i wrote v the way i did so that ALL patches and ALL seals can coexist on my disk and it be HUMAN-obvious which belong to whom and what.
ascii_butugychag: more than one person signs a patch
ascii_butugychag: because it will end up trying to overwrite every OTHER sig
ascii_butugychag: very bad
ascii_butugychag: and i don't see why permit garbage.
ascii_butugychag: there is no way around this.
ascii_butugychag: if you want the filenames to be garbage, you will have O(N^2) evaluation.
ascii_butugychag: prearranged, aha. what's wrong with that ?
ascii_butugychag: and now jurov has something that does not ? so fix ~it~ plox ?
ascii_butugychag: mine works, mod6's works, possibly ben_vulpes's also works.
ascii_butugychag: v - works.
ascii_butugychag: jurov: holy shit, why ??
ascii_butugychag: patchname in 'patchname.vpatch' must equal patchname in patchname.signer.sig
ascii_butugychag: it matches trivially!
ascii_butugychag: i could even see the argument that 'signer' oughta be a gpg fp
ascii_butugychag: jurov: it doesn't need even now. what is your problem with patchname.signer.sig ?
ascii_butugychag: why tie to filesystem oddities that may go away when we get a sane os ?
ascii_butugychag: why must it ?
ascii_butugychag: O(N^2)
ascii_butugychag: just, slowly
ascii_butugychag: correctly